Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	"Jackson, Hank" <Hank.Jackson@*********.COM>
Subject:	Ares MP Laser
Date:	Fri, 5 Sep 1997 18:02:28 -0400

Message no. 1 Hello all,

Is there anyone with experience to discuss the likelihood of the
development of a laser weapon in the next 50 - 100 years? It seems to
me that presenting the world with such a beam weapon in Shadowrun circa
2050 seems a bit premature. I understand that FASA is trying to develop
a technology curve, which is a great idea. It adds depth to a genre.
However, does the laser belong at that place in the curve?

Galen

From:	Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sat, 6 Sep 1997 00:30:26 +0000

Message no. 2 > Hello all,
>
> Is there anyone with experience to discuss the likelihood of the
> development of a laser weapon in the next 50 - 100 years? It seems to
> me that presenting the world with such a beam weapon in Shadowrun circa
> 2050 seems a bit premature. I understand that FASA is trying to develop
> a technology curve, which is a great idea. It adds depth to a genre.
> However, does the laser belong at that place in the curve?

Well since we have laser technology today ... it is in most common
appliances (of a technical nature) today and by looking back of how
fast things are coming I would not say it is an impossiblity that
there will be an "Assult rifel" like Laser weapon in 50 years ... I
think today there are lasers that could be mounted on vehicles (or
trolls :)) ...

So it is not beyond our grasp ... and as noticed here on the list a
few weeks back it was the start of "cybertechnology" with that new
hand someone had created and well CyberTech is a big part of
Shadowrun and it is only 50 years away ..

/Stefan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!" - Sinjin the decker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... E-Mail .............................. casanova@***.passagen.se ...
... HomePage .................... http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/ ...
... ICQ .................................................. 1403212 ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Gabriel Sims <grendel_22@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:34:41 PDT

Message no. 3 Well, I'm short on experience(call me a midget dwarf) but, here goes:

>Is there anyone with experience to discuss the likelihood of the
>development of a laser weapon in the next 50 - 100 years? It seems >to
me that presenting the world with such a beam weapon in Shadowrun >circa
2050 seems a bit premature. I understand that FASA is trying >to
develop a technology curve, which is a great idea. It adds depth >to a
genre.
>However, does the laser belong at that place in the curve?
>
>Galen

Sure, why not? It's not like lasers should become commonplace.
After all, why would a PC have an MP Laser at all, except as booty from
a VERY daring run.

I really don't see why people got so gung-ho over lasers. They are NOT
very good weapons IMNSHO. EX: Mr. Sammy shoots his MP laser at the
vehicle chasing him. Oops!!! the vehicle has a mirrored finish. Looks
like that nifty laser of his bounces off.

I would also rule that Dikoting would put a shiny finish on everything
it covered, making it effectivly laser proof...

Green Dog

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:22:59 -0700

Message no. 4 <snip laser weapons>
Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE> wrote:
>
>Sure, why not? It's not like lasers should become commonplace.
>After all, why would a PC have an MP Laser at all, except as booty from
>a VERY daring run.
>
>I really don't see why people got so gung-ho over lasers. They are NOT
>very good weapons IMNSHO. EX: Mr. Sammy shoots his MP laser at the
>vehicle chasing him. Oops!!! the vehicle has a mirrored finish. Looks
>like that nifty laser of his bounces off.
>
>I would also rule that Dikoting would put a shiny finish on everything
>it covered, making it effectivly laser proof...
>
I don't know about that. I'm not the best authority here, but it seems to
me that a laser that is powerful enough to be used as a weapon isn't just
going to bounce off a shiny surface (likely wax anyway). Sure, some small
fraction of the intensity may rebound, but unless we are talking really
clean optical quality mirrors, I'm pretty sure that whatever it hits will
get cooked. Add the complete absence of recoil, wait until some genius
figures out how to pulse the laser, and you have an awesome (and damn rare)
weapon.

--DT

From:	Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:34:33 +0000

Message no. 5 > <snip laser weapons>
> Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE> wrote:
> >
> >Sure, why not? It's not like lasers should become commonplace.
> >After all, why would a PC have an MP Laser at all, except as booty from
> >a VERY daring run.
> >
> >I really don't see why people got so gung-ho over lasers. They are NOT
> >very good weapons IMNSHO. EX: Mr. Sammy shoots his MP laser at the
> >vehicle chasing him. Oops!!! the vehicle has a mirrored finish. Looks
> >like that nifty laser of his bounces off.
> >
> >I would also rule that Dikoting would put a shiny finish on everything
> >it covered, making it effectivly laser proof...
> >
> I don't know about that. I'm not the best authority here, but it seems to
> me that a laser that is powerful enough to be used as a weapon isn't just
> going to bounce off a shiny surface (likely wax anyway). Sure, some small
> fraction of the intensity may rebound, but unless we are talking really
> clean optical quality mirrors, I'm pretty sure that whatever it hits will
> get cooked. Add the complete absence of recoil, wait until some genius
> figures out how to pulse the laser, and you have an awesome (and damn rare)
> weapon.

Ehh what kinda frame up is this ? I never wrote that crap about shiny
surfaces ....

/Stefan

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!" - Sinjin the decker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... E-Mail .............................. casanova@***.passagen.se ...
... HomePage .................... http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/ ...
... ICQ .................................................. 1403212 ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Rob Siemborski <robsiemb@******.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:56:34 -0400

Message no. 6 On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Jackson, Hank wrote:

> Is there anyone with experience to discuss the likelihood of the
> development of a laser weapon in the next 50 - 100 years? It seems to
> me that presenting the world with such a beam weapon in Shadowrun circa
> 2050 seems a bit premature. I understand that FASA is trying to develop
> a technology curve, which is a great idea. It adds depth to a genre.
> However, does the laser belong at that place in the curve?

Well, one could say that the development from the 8088 to the PII-300's
that we see today was far too fast, if we look at it from the perspective
of someone in '78-'82. I mean, no one REALLY ever expected PC's to become
as big a market as they are now, and likewise they didn't expect the tech
to evolve so quickly.

There are 50+ years between now and the time in which SR takes place. We
do have high-powered IR lasers now, capible of small tasks which they are
very good at, such as surgery. They are not, however, usuable as weapons
(except as a laser sight, which is a different story). Given that the
world of SR has turned away from the government to corps that NEED weapons
as a means of securing their profit margin, it is very likely that
companies (ie: ARES) spent the time in developing the current small lasers
into the MP & Vehicle lasers that we see in SR. They certainly had the
time and $$$ for it-- especially as it is a product for Ares.

- Rob -

BTW: I've been on this list before. I'm also going to be in a campaign
run by Dust in the not-too-distant future (All the bergen.org people run
together. It's lots of fun).

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Rob Siemborski * http://www.bergen.org/~robsiemb (Has PGP Public Key)
Wow! Web Wonders <> http://www.bergen.org/AAST/Wow/
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----
Version: 3.1
GCS/IT/CM d- s+:- a--- C++++>$ UI++>++++ UA++ UL>+ UB+$>++++ UV$>++++
P+$>+++$ L+ E---- W+++ N+ o K- w+(++++)>+++++$ O-(+) M--(+)>! Y PGP++
t+ 5+++>++++ !X R++>+++ tv(+) b++(+++) DI+ D++(+++) G e- h+>++ r y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

From:	Rob Siemborski <robsiemb@******.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:58:55 -0400

Message no. 7 On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Gabriel Sims wrote:

> I really don't see why people got so gung-ho over lasers. They are NOT
> very good weapons IMNSHO. EX: Mr. Sammy shoots his MP laser at the
> vehicle chasing him. Oops!!! the vehicle has a mirrored finish. Looks
> like that nifty laser of his bounces off.

You forget the convienent 15M damage. Especially when it scales up to an
S or even a D. That and no recoil: what could be better?

- Rob -

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Rob Siemborski * http://www.bergen.org/~robsiemb (Has PGP Public Key)
Wow! Web Wonders <> http://www.bergen.org/AAST/Wow/
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----
Version: 3.1
GCS/IT/CM d- s+:- a--- C++++>$ UI++>++++ UA++ UL>+ UB+$>++++ UV$>++++
P+$>+++$ L+ E---- W+++ N+ o K- w+(++++)>+++++$ O-(+) M--(+)>! Y PGP++
t+ 5+++>++++ !X R++>+++ tv(+) b++(+++) DI+ D++(+++) G e- h+>++ r y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

From:	David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:14:24 -0700

Message no. 8 At 01:34 AM 9/6/97 +0000, you wrote:
>> <snip laser weapons>
>> Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE> wrote:
<snip what he didn't write, and what I replied.>

>Ehh what kinda frame up is this ? I never wrote that crap about shiny
>surfaces ....
>
oops, my bad, Gabriel Sims <grendel_22@*******.COM> wrote it (maybe?). My
mailer doesn't say who wrote what when I reply, so I usually go back and
hunt it down. I must have missed, sorry.

--DT

From:	Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:21:49 +0000

Message no. 9 > <snip what he didn't write, and what I replied.>
>
> >Ehh what kinda frame up is this ? I never wrote that crap about shiny
> >surfaces ....
> >
> oops, my bad, Gabriel Sims <grendel_22@*******.COM> wrote it (maybe?). My
> mailer doesn't say who wrote what when I reply, so I usually go back and
> hunt it down. I must have missed, sorry.

Null problemo ... It just feelt weird ... I knew I had not written
that ...

/Stefan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!" - Sinjin the decker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... E-Mail .............................. casanova@***.passagen.se ...
... HomePage .................... http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/ ...
... ICQ .................................................. 1403212 ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Fri, 5 Sep 1997 23:21:23 +0100

Message no. 10 In article <505E6C4C1EA1D011B90D00805FE2F492073B45@*********.reichhold.c
om>, "Jackson, Hank" <Hank.Jackson@*********.COM> writes
>Hello all,
>Is there anyone with experience to discuss the likelihood of the
>development of a laser weapon in the next 50 - 100 years? It seems to
>me that presenting the world with such a beam weapon in Shadowrun circa
>2050 seems a bit premature. I understand that FASA is trying to develop
>a technology curve, which is a great idea. It adds depth to a genre.
>However, does the laser belong at that place in the curve?

If the battery technology is up to the job, then yes.

It's probably possible, but remember lasers have major drawbacks. Chief
among them is the fact that, if I find myself surprised at close
quarters, I can use an AK or a FN or a similar assault rifle to bludgeon
my enemy until he agrees to lie still and be quiet. I can then use the
rifle in its intended role without difficulty.

Try that with a laser and you've broken a very expensive weapon. Lasers
are fragile compared to assault rifles, and probably extremely
maintenance-intensive.

Let's face it, what does a laser do that a sniper rifle loaded with APDS
doesn't? Hell, for that weight, cost and availability you could have an
assault cannon that outclasses the laser all around.

Like my Plasma Cannon (yes, a genuine plasma weapon intended for
Shadowrun), it's much more expensive, much more delicate, and at the
moment no more effective than "ordinary" equivalents. By the 2150s,
projectile weapons may be as obsolete as muzzle-loaders are today, but
for now energy weapons are stil trickling out of the lab.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Fri, 5 Sep 1997 22:43:12 EDT

Message no. 11 On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:58:55 -0400 Rob Siemborski <robsiemb@******.ORG>
writes:
>On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Gabriel Sims wrote:
>
>> I really don't see why people got so gung-ho over lasers. They are
NOT
>> very good weapons IMNSHO. EX: Mr. Sammy shoots his MP laser at the
>> vehicle chasing him. Oops!!! the vehicle has a mirrored finish.
Looks
>> like that nifty laser of his bounces off.
>
>You forget the convienent 15M damage. Especially when it scales up to
an
>S or even a D. That and no recoil: what could be better?

A weapon that retains it's 'punch' at extreme range (remember that little
drop in power based on range catagory?), one that isn't blocked by smoke,
one that isn't so expensive, one that is easier and cheaper to fix if it
get's 'busted', one that won't be easily recognized (don't go telling me
that a laser burn is just as common as a bullet wound) - and traced...
etc.. the list could go on and on.

Sure they're cool but it's not like you can buy them from old ladies with
shopping carts or something..

~Tim

From:	Rob Siemborski <robsiemb@******.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Fri, 5 Sep 1997 23:50:44 -0400

Message no. 12 On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Tim Cooper wrote:

> A weapon that retains it's 'punch' at extreme range (remember that little
> drop in power based on range catagory?), one that isn't blocked by smoke,
> one that isn't so expensive, one that is easier and cheaper to fix if it
> get's 'busted', one that won't be easily recognized (don't go telling me
> that a laser burn is just as common as a bullet wound) - and traced...
> etc.. the list could go on and on.

I'll give you they expensive bit-- they do cost a slight bit more than the
normal minigun ;-)

However (maybe I've just not played for long enough yet) I have rarely had
encounters where the characters are more than 40 (sniper, short) meters
(that's over 120 feet!) apart. I've only once shot through smoke-- that
was when I put it there. And if you are making enough money to afford
one (or you are able to capture a working one), you're probabally
have the good sense not to get caught using it, or to let people
know who is going around carrying a laser. It also has that nice 1/2
impact modifier (Yes, It's not the only item that carries that).

Getting it damaged could be inconvient of course ;-)

- Rob -

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Rob Siemborski * http://www.bergen.org/~robsiemb (Has PGP Public Key)
Wow! Web Wonders <> http://www.bergen.org/AAST/Wow/
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----
Version: 3.1
GCS/IT/CM d- s+:- a--- C++++>$ UI++>++++ UA++ UL>+ UB+$>++++ UV$>++++
P+$>+++$ L+ E---- W+++ N+ o K- w+(++++)>+++++$ O-(+) M--(+)>! Y PGP++
t+ 5+++>++++ !X R++>+++ tv(+) b++(+++) DI+ D++(+++) G e- h+>++ r y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

From:	"Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:02:48 -0500

Message no. 13 You wrote:
> It's probably possible, but remember lasers have major drawbacks. Chief
> among them is the fact that, if I find myself surprised at close
> quarters, I can use an AK or a FN or a similar assault rifle to bludgeon
> my enemy until he agrees to lie still and be quiet. I can then use the
> rifle in its intended role without difficulty.
Yes, but the ability to be used a a bludgeoning weapon isn't my first priority
in a weapon, it's how well does it kill, or what's its range?

> Try that with a laser and you've broken a very expensive weapon. Lasers
> are fragile compared to assault rifles, and probably extremely
> maintenance-intensive.

This is a consideration, and yet, in some roles it would be worthwhile.

> Let's face it, what does a laser do that a sniper rifle loaded with APDS
> doesn't? Hell, for that weight, cost and availability you could have an
> assault cannon that outclasses the laser all around.
Ignores armor, for the most part, is more stable 'in-flight' (i.e. wind doesn't
matter, no recoil, you know where it's going to hit because travel time is
nil), and is silent (not just a quieted firearm).

> Like my Plasma Cannon (yes, a genuine plasma weapon intended for
> Shadowrun), it's much more expensive, much more delicate, and at the
> moment no more effective than "ordinary" equivalents. By the 2150s,
> projectile weapons may be as obsolete as muzzle-loaders are today, but
> for now energy weapons are stil trickling out of the lab.
This all depends on how you see the technology progressing, really. We can
speculate on the rate of development, but it's not a very sure speculation,
imo.

losthalo

From:	Mike Sapp <cynner29@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sat, 6 Sep 1997 00:32:09 -0400

Message no. 14 At 06:02 PM 9/5/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>Is there anyone with experience to discuss the likelihood of the
>development of a laser weapon in the next 50 - 100 years? It seems to
>me that presenting the world with such a beam weapon in Shadowrun circa
>2050 seems a bit premature. I understand that FASA is trying to develop
>a technology curve, which is a great idea. It adds depth to a genre.
>However, does the laser belong at that place in the curve?
>

The built-in problems with lasers will eventually lead to the laser being
dropped as an in-atmosphere weapon, IMO. The technologies that use lasers
today avoid most of these problems by using low powered lasers, LED lasers
that produce little heat but have a low maximum output level and a limited
range, these are the grocery store lasers, CD lasers and the majority of
the remaining commercially used lasers.
The medical field however does use lasers that are quite powerful, but
they take advantage of one of the flaws and work around the others.
Surgical lasers use a gas tube laser, it looks alot like a oddly shaped
fluorecent<sp> light, this laser generates more heat than LED's but has a
much higher output. The delicate optics used to focus the beam so that it
can be used as a surgerical tool are mounted on stable base not carried
around on someone's shoulder. The high power demands for cooling and the
acutal laser are met by an AC supply, generally on a dedicated line. A
large drawback to using a laser as a weapon is that the intense heat sears
nerve endings before they can react to the pain/heat, in the medical arena
this is a boon.
The laser also doesn't transfer kinetic energy, which is the number one
killer of gunshot victims, this requires a laser-user to burn something
vital to get a kill or to burn enough so that shock kills. The laser also
cartherizes wounds, drastically decreasing blood loss, this lessens shock.
Lasers are also highly sensitive to atmoshperic conditions, smoke, smog,
fog, rain, etc. Though only the most severe of these conditions would block
a megawatt Laser, all would lessen it's power. Lasers also lose focus
quickly, to get a decent range you have to A. Increase power output and
demand B. Build even more delicate optics.
The single most important reason that defeats lasers as a weapon, and
solidifies the continued use of the modern handgun is ecomonics. Keep in
mind these are megacorps, a place where the bottom line is more important
than human life in most cases. The laser is expensive from the word go,
handguns OTOH are relatively cheap. For the average handgun in the US, I
have no idea as to how local laws change this in other countries :Sorry:, a
single round has an average cost of .30 . This is for a name brand, quality
bullet not some lead head or dumdum shot, those run .10 to .20 depending on
the caliber. Burn through two clips and you are still coming out cheaper
than the cost of a single shot from a laser. Drop a handgun and you have to
clean it; drop a laser and you have to buy another.

I apologize that this got wordy, but as a kid Lasers were Mondo Cool,
after a little innocent research and suddenly they aren't very cool at all.
Pretty damn unrealistic actually.

If you want a realistic non-kinetic weapon, try ultrasonic emmiters,
Microwave emmiters and GRasers( the gamma ray eqiv. of the laser)
Actually alot of work is currently being done in the GRaser area and the
prospects are more promising than Lasers ever were.

Cynner -

From:	Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:58:04 +0000

Message no. 15 > I would also rule that Dikoting would put a shiny finish on everything
> it covered, making it effectivly laser proof...

I definitely wouldn't. Despite popular belief diamond is real easy to
cut with laser.. and no, a mirror finish doesn't make much of a
difference either; at best reduce the power level a little.

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sat, 6 Sep 1997 10:25:11 +0100

Message no. 16 |Hello all,
|
|Is there anyone with experience to discuss the likelihood of the
|development of a laser weapon in the next 50 - 100 years? It seems to
|me that presenting the world with such a beam weapon in Shadowrun circa
|2050 seems a bit premature. I understand that FASA is trying to develop
|a technology curve, which is a great idea. It adds depth to a genre.
|However, does the laser belong at that place in the curve?

They already use lasers as cutting and welding tools.
The only problem they have to face is power, and power dissipation along the
beam.

(Air absorbs a lot of the energy from the laser, and dust/water/etc
particles make it worse. Thus, they have a very limited range at the moment)

If they chose a wavelength that had a high penetration, such as far infra
red for example, I think they'd have something....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:58:04 +0000

Message no. 17 > Hello all,
>
> Is there anyone with experience to discuss the likelihood of the
> development of a laser weapon in the next 50 - 100 years? It seems to
> me that presenting the world with such a beam weapon in Shadowrun circa
> 2050 seems a bit premature. I understand that FASA is trying to develop
> a technology curve, which is a great idea. It adds depth to a genre.
> However, does the laser belong at that place in the curve?

Good question. Interesting as well.. as a side not, a not so recent
guns'n ammo issue mentioned that defence contractors expect to have
man-portable railguns within 10-20 years.

As for portable laser rifles.. they would be possible today, if only
it was possible to get the energy to'em. That's where the problem
lies with such weapons...

And small energy containers is a line of research getting a lot of
money thrown at it today. (Electric cars is part of the reason).

It would not surprise me if they managed to get such a weapon within
30-40 years.. or sooner. If they wanted to.. but there's less
cumbersome ways of drilling holes in people.

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:48:43 +0100

Message no. 18 Jackson, Hank said on 18:02/ 5 Sep 97...

> Is there anyone with experience to discuss the likelihood of the
> development of a laser weapon in the next 50 - 100 years? It seems to
> me that presenting the world with such a beam weapon in Shadowrun circa
> 2050 seems a bit premature. I understand that FASA is trying to develop
> a technology curve, which is a great idea. It adds depth to a genre.
> However, does the laser belong at that place in the curve?

The few lasers that exist in SR aren't all that useful as weapons. The
biggest drawback is the weight (of the batteries) you have to carry around
just to get some shots out of the thing. Ammo capacity is lousy, and you
get penalized for smoke twice -- once in your TN modifier and once in the
Power Level. This does make sense, though, going by my very limited
knowledge of lasers.
One thing SR unfortunately doesn't address is that the moving target TN
modifiers should be much lower for a laser, because you don't have to take
bullet flight time into account.

Anyway to answer your question, IMHO a few very expensive and hard-to-get
lasers, like we have now, should be in SR. Laser weapons are sort of
feasible today, so after throwing in SR's 30 to 50 years of further
development I'd say they fit in with the game setting.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Well, I have no opinion about that, and I have no opinion about me...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sat, 6 Sep 1997 14:26:50 +0100

Message no. 19 In article <01INAYEOIJ0C8Y5V1I@******.acs.muohio.edu>, "Wendy Wanders,
Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> writes
>You wrote:
>> It's probably possible, but remember lasers have major drawbacks. Chief
>> among them is the fact that, if I find myself surprised at close
>> quarters, I can use an AK or a FN or a similar assault rifle to bludgeon
>> my enemy until he agrees to lie still and be quiet. I can then use the
>> rifle in its intended role without difficulty.

>Yes, but the ability to be used a a bludgeoning weapon isn't my first priority
>in a weapon, it's how well does it kill, or what's its range?

Can you throw yourself into cover and have the laser still come up
firing? Weapons that get used in combat have to be rugged.

>> Let's face it, what does a laser do that a sniper rifle loaded with APDS
>> doesn't? Hell, for that weight, cost and availability you could have an
>> assault cannon that outclasses the laser all around.

>Ignores armor, for the most part, is more stable 'in-flight' (i.e. wind doesn't
>matter, no recoil, you know where it's going to hit because travel time is
>nil), and is silent (not just a quieted firearm).

Ignores armour until someone starts adding ablative layers to
conventional armour.

Accuracy is nice, but then a smartgun link takes care of a lot of that
for you anyway.

Silent... I doubt it. One, you're discharging a _lot_ of energy in a
short space of time and that makes noise. You'll probably ionise the air
you're firing through, more noise. And your wounding mechanism for a
pulse laser is vapour explosion, and that _is_ noisy. I'd say it made
about the same noise as a silenced firearm using subsonic ammo, both to
fire and at the target.

>> Like my Plasma Cannon (yes, a genuine plasma weapon intended for
>> Shadowrun), it's much more expensive, much more delicate, and at the
>> moment no more effective than "ordinary" equivalents. By the 2150s,
>> projectile weapons may be as obsolete as muzzle-loaders are today, but
>> for now energy weapons are stil trickling out of the lab.

>This all depends on how you see the technology progressing, really. We can
>speculate on the rate of development, but it's not a very sure speculation,
>imo.

Lasers have inherent limitations and don't make good personal weapons.
By the time you solve the problem of power density, you realise there's
better things to do with the power.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sat, 6 Sep 1997 16:11:26 -0700

Message no. 20 >Is there anyone with experience to discuss the likelihood of the
>development of a laser weapon in the next 50 - 100 years?

I don't see why it wouldn't be possible in the 50-100
years..Especially with the advent of the great crash..When so much was
lost..Man doesn't just sit back an wimper "Now What?" He jumps up and
digs in..fact is it would probably send research off into different
directions that researchers were a bit blind to before..And making
discoveries that they would not have until much later...

>It seems to
>me that presenting the world with such a beam weapon in Shadowrun
>circa 2050 seems a bit premature.

I don't think it is at all premature..Afterall we have them now..I
have seen Unclassified footage of a laser shooting down a ballistic
missile..as well as drones..They had to be kept on the target for
several seconds to be effective.. but they were still quite impressive
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer

From:	"Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sat, 6 Sep 1997 19:30:13 -0500

Message no. 21 You wrote:
> Ignores armour until someone starts adding ablative layers to
> conventional armour.
Making armor either less effective against firearms, or bulkier, and causing
everyone to upgrade their armor to catch up. And the 'concealable' armors used
in SR are not the type to easily be made ablative.

> Accuracy is nice, but then a smartgun link takes care of a lot of that
> for you anyway.
True, but the cyber for that is another cost. Why not let the tech of the
weapon take care of that for you?

> Lasers have inherent limitations and don't make good personal weapons.
> By the time you solve the problem of power density, you realise there's
> better things to do with the power.
This could well be true. Any ideas on what other weapons you might see in
place of the laser?

losthalo

From:	James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sun, 7 Sep 1997 08:25:02 GMT

Message no. 22 On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 18:02:28 -0400, Jackson, Hank wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> Is there anyone with experience to discuss the likelihood of the
> development of a laser weapon in the next 50 - 100 years? It seems to
> me that presenting the world with such a beam weapon in Shadowrun circa
> 2050 seems a bit premature. I understand that FASA is trying to develop
> a technology curve, which is a great idea. It adds depth to a genre.
> However, does the laser belong at that place in the curve?

Good man-portable laser weapons are quite a ways off considering that
there are so many ways of killing people that are far more efficient.
Consider the simple fact that lasers require *huge* amounts of energy
to deliver the same "damage" to a target as today's slugthrowers.
Large batteries would be needed and you simply cannot draw the power
needed to fire a laser pulse from a battery in a few nanoseconds. Now
you need bulky capacitors that can discharge the amount of energy
required over such a short time. Both batteries and capacitors are
far from 100% efficient, however, meaning that you may very well need
to dump "4x" power into the batteries to get a "1x" power beam out of
the weapon.

Now, instead of powering an inefficient laser with all those Joules,
pump it into a railgun instead. Now you have a weapon capable of
launching 5mm armour penetrators at velocities over 4,500 m/s! At
those speeds, the projectiles will actually *explode* on contact with
a flesh target, tearing out huge gawd-awful holes. Lasers will
someday exceed the abilities of even railguns but that will take many
more decades to do so.

Lasers do not belong on a filthy battlefield either. If there is any
mud or crap contaminating the "window" where the beam exits the
weapon, serious damage to weapon could result when the beam tries to
burn its way through the opaque material.

So, if FASA wants to create a weapons technology curve, it should
begin with further refinements to current slugthrower technology. The
chemically-propelled slugthrower isn't at its pinnacle yet, but it is
close. Railguns should soon follow, becoming more and more efficient.
Lasers will then make their way on to the scene, followed by particle
accelerators. There's not much point in speculating beyond that.

Laser trivia fact: Pulsed laser weapons do not burn holes all the way
through fleshy targets (like people and animals). Flesh is composed
mainly of water. When the laser strikes it, the beam cannot continue
until all matter in front of it is out of the way. This means
superheating all of that water in a nanosecond (if it takes any
longer, the pulse of the laser is over). The resulting superheated
steam causes large explosions which create surface craters in the
target. These craters are still occupied with vapourized tissue,
which blocks the beam just like smoke. This high temperature steam
then absorbs much of the remaining energy from the laser beam pulse.
A true "beam" laser would be necessary to burn a hole completely
through a target, and that would increase the power requirements
*immensely*.

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
the grace to accept the things I cannot,
and a great big bag of money."

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sun, 7 Sep 1997 01:53:45 +0100

Message no. 23 In article <01INC11BARAG8Y52RN@******.acs.muohio.edu>, "Wendy Wanders,
Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> writes
>You wrote:
>> Ignores armour until someone starts adding ablative layers to
>> conventional armour.

>Making armor either less effective against firearms, or bulkier, and causing
>everyone to upgrade their armor to catch up. And the 'concealable' armors used
>in SR are not the type to easily be made ablative.

The trauma shield in a standard bulletproof vest would double as an
effective ablative layer, for instance.

>> Accuracy is nice, but then a smartgun link takes care of a lot of that
>> for you anyway.
>True, but the cyber for that is another cost. Why not let the tech of the
>weapon take care of that for you?

The cost of the laser far outweighs the cost of fitting an assault
cannon and its user with smartgun hardware.

>> Lasers have inherent limitations and don't make good personal weapons.
>> By the time you solve the problem of power density, you realise there's
>> better things to do with the power.

>This could well be true. Any ideas on what other weapons you might see in
>place of the laser?

Possibilities:

Electromagnetic weapons (either linear accelerators or railguns, more
likely linacs).

Liquid propellant and/or ETC propellant (smoother pressure trace and
higher velocity)

Smarter grenade launchers (current US OICW proposal, a weapon firing
22mm grenades with timed fuses set by laser rangefinder: air-timed
minigrenades with realistic accuracy. Point, lase, shoot, and anything
within a few metres of the aim point gets a faceful of shrapnel.
Flechette and HEAT rounds possible for close-range or anti-armour
shooting too)

Fundamentally, though, bullets remain the most reliable, most cost-
effective and best understood means of inflicting lethal harm on an
enemy at a distance. There is no lack of accuracy or of effectiveness:
the problem is the person holding the weapon, who has a habit of
misdirecting those lethal projectiles.

Hence programs like SPIW and ACR and now OICW, where the US Army
struggles to use technology to compensate for poor marksmanship.

The main improvements to weapons in the Shadowrun timeframe are actually
what FASA suggested: better sighting systems (scopes, lasers, integrated
rangefinders/ballistic computers) and better night-vision gear; perhaps
gyrostabilisation for the weapon, maybe better ergonomics. The key is
helping the soldier to hit: the weapon he's firing is adequate in other
ways.

True story: the US Army spent umpty-squillion pounds on an instrumented
range and on five contenders for the Advanced Combat Rifle program.

The contenders were:-

Steyr (with an evolution of their AUG, firing case-telescoped flechette)
AAI (a conventional-looking rifle firing brass-cased flechette)
Colt (with a relatively conventional rifle firing duplex (two rounds in
one case) ammo
Heckler and Koch (with their G11 firing 4.7mm caseless ammo)
Colt (the control weapon, a slightly modified M16A2)

They were exhaustively tested and the results checked.

The winner? The product-improved M16, which basically cleaned up a few
remaining design niggles and traded the carrying handle for a scope
sight and - last I heard - will be adopted as the M16A3. It worked, the
troops knew it and liked it, and the other weapons were all more
expensive for no improvement in practical performance.

It doesn't matter how good the rifle is if the user can't shoot
straight. For that you need training, and for that you need a weapon
that can fire a lot of rounds without needing expensive overhaul and
whose ammunition is cheap enough that the trainees can burn a carload or
two each.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	westln@***.EDU
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sun, 7 Sep 1997 19:03:08 -0400

Message no. 24 So far the discussion has been about lasers doing damage like a bullet. I
agree with the general opinion that getting the energy required into a man
portable form would be difficult, in the near future to do the same damage
as a bullet.

However, lasers can be used to blind. This would require much lower energy
requirements. The military today issued a device that goes in the 40mm
grenade launcher that emits a laser designed to dazzle oponents. It was
used in africa.
I believed they used it to help with threatening crowds.

This same technology could be expanded to blind even cyber eyes. I remember
reading an article on a SDI laser system designed to blind spy satelites.

As for protective goggles or lenses. They would have to be opaque to the
frequency used. Or turn opaque over the entire possible frequency used.
In the latter case your goggles will prevent you from seeing and thats just
as good.

So lasers are not dead as a weapon. They just might not be used as a deadly
weapon.

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:28:52 +0100

Message no. 25 In article <v01510100b038defde7e7@************>, westln@***.EDU writes
>So far the discussion has been about lasers doing damage like a bullet. I
>agree with the general opinion that getting the energy required into a man
>portable form would be difficult, in the near future to do the same damage
>as a bullet.
>
>However, lasers can be used to blind. This would require much lower energy
>requirements.

It also _greatly_ reduces your target area.

This has been used operationally: the Royal Navy used Laser Dazzle
Sights in the Falklands fifteen years ago. However, it was as a cheap
and light adjunct to 20mm and 7.62mm AAA, not as a replacement.

>This same technology could be expanded to blind even cyber eyes. I remember
>reading an article on a SDI laser system designed to blind spy satelites.

Usually by overloading their sensors while they were overhead.

>As for protective goggles or lenses. They would have to be opaque to the
>frequency used. Or turn opaque over the entire possible frequency used.
>In the latter case your goggles will prevent you from seeing and thats just
>as good.

Take a look at a modern tank or IFV. The vision blocks have a funny
purple tint: that's the antilaser protective coating.

There are only certain frequencies that lasers work at: CO2 and Nd-YAG
are the two main ones today. You can block those without losing much
else.

>So lasers are not dead as a weapon. They just might not be used as a deadly
>weapon.

They're most useful as rangefinders and designators, and as large-scale
weapons (for CIWS and BMD) rather than small-arms.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:28:05 GMT

Message no. 26 On Sun, 7 Sep 1997 19:03:08 -0400, westln@***.EDU wrote:

> So far the discussion has been about lasers doing damage like a bullet. I
> agree with the general opinion that getting the energy required into a man
> portable form would be difficult, in the near future to do the same damage
> as a bullet.

Lasers do not do damage in the same way as a bullet. Pulse lasers
create surface cratering while bullets pass through the target, doing
some hydrostatic damage as well. See my previous post.

> However, lasers can be used to blind. This would require much lower energy
> requirements. The military today issued a device that goes in the 40mm
> grenade launcher that emits a laser designed to dazzle oponents. It was
> used in africa.
> I believed they used it to help with threatening crowds.

The use of lasers to blind during warfare is forbidden under the
Geneva Convention, falling under the term "cruel & unusual punishment"
(surprisingly, nukes are not). This is the same reasoning which
limits world militaries from using anything other than full metal
jacketed ammunition.

Sure, lasers could still be used to blind the enemy, but World opinion
would harshly turn against the side employing them (far more than the
way World opinion turned against Saddam Hussein when he lit over 600
oil well fires and dumped raw crude oil out into the Persian Gulf)
once the news gets out-- like it always does. Evil empires would use
them regardless, I guess :)

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
the grace to accept the things I cannot,
and a great big bag of money."

From:	"Jackson, Hank" <Hank.Jackson@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:43:57 -0400

Message no. 27 Someone had mentioned a GRaser during this thread. In my
overzealousness, I deleted that message. Crap. Anyway, where can I
find out more info concerning this beasty. Perhaps I will adapt the
Ares MP to a GRaser. Also, my understanding is that a GRaser is a Gamma
Ray emitter, neh?

Thanks for all the great info,

Galen

From:	Timothy Little <t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:21:53 +1000

Message no. 28 At 12:28 AM 9/8/97 +0100, "Paul J. Adam" wrote:

>In article <v01510100b038defde7e7@************>, westln@***.EDU writes
>>
>>However, lasers can be used to blind. This would require much lower energy
>>requirements.
>
>It also _greatly_ reduces your target area.

If you have a laser system capable of delivering a few kJ for weapon
purposes, you could spread it over a larger area and catch the eyes in that
area.

>>As for protective goggles or lenses. They would have to be opaque to the
>>frequency used. Or turn opaque over the entire possible frequency used.
>>In the latter case your goggles will prevent you from seeing and thats just
>>as good.
>
>Take a look at a modern tank or IFV. The vision blocks have a funny
>purple tint: that's the antilaser protective coating.
>
>There are only certain frequencies that lasers work at: CO2 and Nd-YAG
>are the two main ones today. You can block those without losing much
>else.

However, many other lasers have variable frequency range, including a few of
the more promising weapon-grade lasers. These would be a real problem to
block.

This idea could be nasty for game-play - in Traveller the writers stated
that the most useful directly harmful effects of lasers would be to blind
enemies, but they didn't want games full of blind characters.

In Shadwrun, clonal and cyber-eye replacements are relatively cheap and
easily available, so it may be allowable.

--
Tim Little

From:	Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:00:00 GMT

Message no. 29 on 06.09.97 runefo@***.UIO.NO wrote:

[Laser-weapons in SR too early?]

r> Good question. Interesting as well.. as a side not, a not so recent
r> guns'n ammo issue mentioned that defence contractors expect to have
r> man-portable railguns within 10-20 years.

Don't you think this is kinda....erm...strange? A railgun needs quite a
bit of energy, to get the same effect as a firearm. Same as the laser,
isn't it?

r> It would not surprise me if they managed to get such a weapon within
r> 30-40 years.. or sooner. If they wanted to.. but there's less
r> cumbersome ways of drilling holes in people.

Laser are pretty bogus as weapons: They only cause very small wounds,
which get *burned*, thus stopping the bleeding and prefeventig infections.
And there isn't even a chance of devasting internal wounds (unless, of
course you hit the head ot the heart, but that's a bit unlikely).

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------

From:	"Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:56:20 -0500

Message no. 30 You wrote:
> Don't you think this is kinda....erm...strange? A railgun needs quite a
> bit of energy, to get the same effect as a firearm. Same as the laser,
> isn't it?
No. Getting a coherent beam of light energy takes a helliva lot of power if
you want to burn the target with it in a short period of time.

> Laser are pretty bogus as weapons: They only cause very small wounds,
> which get *burned*, thus stopping the bleeding and prefeventig infections.
Actually, the idea in many modern battlefield wounds isn't to kill soldiers,
but rather to *incapacitate* them such that they use up resources extracting
them from the battlefield and treating him to save their lives. Just look at
modern grenades. :)

> And there isn't even a chance of devasting internal wounds (unless, of
> course you hit the head ot the heart, but that's a bit unlikely).
No, no, no, there are many possibly fatal areas. The lungs are immediately
fatal unless they get surgery, a shot to the kidneys can be as well, not to
mention the shock trauma of deep burn wounds (incapacitating, even if not
fatal).

losthalo

From:	Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:10:58 +0000

Message no. 31 > > And there isn't even a chance of devasting internal wounds (unless, of
> > course you hit the head ot the heart, but that's a bit unlikely).
> No, no, no, there are many possibly fatal areas. The lungs are immediately
> fatal unless they get surgery, a shot to the kidneys can be as well, not to
> mention the shock trauma of deep burn wounds (incapacitating, even if not
> fatal).

I would disagree even further... The hit part of the body evaporate
into gas, whose rapid expansion is quite similar to an explosion.
Much like heating an egg in the microwave, really, only more dramatic
and happening to a person. The reason this is not what happens to
modern lasers is that they are used on steel or diamond, which has a
lot less water in it, or isn't intended to burn holes. We're not
talking about a 'nice, cauterized pinprick' here... it depends a bit
on where you are hit, of course, but that is nicely covered by the
damage test. Head hits would be extra bad, closely followed by gut
shots.

(This is, of course, just a possibility. I can't say that's what
*WILL* happen, but some stuff seems to support that theory.
It's also OK to view it as just drilling a hole in someone.. anyone
want to try it out?).
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:34:45 GMT

Message no. 32 On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:10:58 +0000, Fade wrote:

> > > And there isn't even a chance of devasting internal wounds (unless, of
> > > course you hit the head ot the heart, but that's a bit unlikely).
> > No, no, no, there are many possibly fatal areas. The lungs are immediately
> > fatal unless they get surgery, a shot to the kidneys can be as well, not to
> > mention the shock trauma of deep burn wounds (incapacitating, even if not
> > fatal).
>
> I would disagree even further... The hit part of the body evaporate
> into gas, whose rapid expansion is quite similar to an explosion.
> Much like heating an egg in the microwave, really, only more dramatic
> and happening to a person. The reason this is not what happens to
> modern lasers is that they are used on steel or diamond, which has a
> lot less water in it, or isn't intended to burn holes. We're not
> talking about a 'nice, cauterized pinprick' here...

Actually, laser weapons *must* fire short, powerful pulses in order to
keep energy costs down. Because of the "shortness" of the laser
pulse, it comes in contact with flesh and immediately creates a steam
explosion (like surface cratering). The laser pulse simply does not
last long enough to continue on through the target.

OTOH, lasers used by doctors are much lower powered but use continuous
beams as well. Because of this, you do not get a "steam explosion"
and the lasers can actually be used to "drill" or "cut" flesh.

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
the grace to accept the things I cannot,
and a great big bag of money."

From:	Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:43:00 GMT

Message no. 33 on 16.09.97 KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU wrote:

K> > Don't you think this is kinda....erm...strange? A railgun needs quite a
K> > bit of energy, to get the same effect as a firearm. Same as the laser,
K> > isn't it?
K> No. Getting a coherent beam of light energy takes a helliva lot of power
K> if you want to burn the target with it in a short period of time.

Huh? Burn the entire target? Yeah, that's gonna take a *LOT* of energy!
(Just imagine that!)

K> > Laser are pretty bogus as weapons: They only cause very small wounds,
K> > which get *burned*, thus stopping the bleeding and prefeventig
K> > infections.
K> Actually, the idea in many modern battlefield wounds isn't to kill
K> soldiers, but rather to *incapacitate* them such that they use up
K> resources extracting them from the battlefield and treating him to save
K> their lives. Just look at modern grenades. :)

Yup. Another point against lasers. A weapons that comes with build in
medical help (i.e. sealing the wound, disinfesting(sp?) and stuff like
that) isn't that good for that, is it?

K> > And there isn't even a chance of devasting internal wounds (unless, of
K> > course you hit the head ot the heart, but that's a bit unlikely).
K> No, no, no, there are many possibly fatal areas. The lungs are immediately
K> fatal unless they get surgery, a shot to the kidneys can be as well, not to
K> mention the shock trauma of deep burn wounds (incapacitating, even if not
K> fatal).

I don't think you'd get a bad trauma from that (Do we has medics here?).
There's no bleeding, so no volume shock, pain should be minimal, as the
nervs turn of in that heat (Just look at branding). I'm not even sure a
hit to the lungs would be fatal.

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------

From:	"Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sun, 21 Sep 1997 15:57:04 -0500

Message no. 34 You wrote:
> K> No. Getting a coherent beam of light energy takes a helliva lot of power
> K> if you want to burn the target with it in a short period of time.

> Huh? Burn the entire target? Yeah, that's gonna take a *LOT* of energy!
> (Just imagine that!)

Uhhhhh. I was talking about getting enough heat int he target to actually
begin to burn it, not burning up the entire target.

> Yup. Another point against lasers. A weapons that comes with build in
> medical help (i.e. sealing the wound, disinfesting(sp?) and stuff like
> that) isn't that good for that, is it?
Well, having a large burn doesn't really help the wound. If not treated (or
even if they are) they pose a serious threat to your life, through shock if
nothing else.

> K> No, no, no, there are many possibly fatal areas. The lungs are immediately
> K> fatal unless they get surgery, a shot to the kidneys can be as well, not to
> K> mention the shock trauma of deep burn wounds (incapacitating, even if not
> K> fatal).

> I don't think you'd get a bad trauma from that (Do we has medics here?).
> There's no bleeding, so no volume shock, pain should be minimal, as the
> nervs turn of in that heat (Just look at branding). I'm not even sure a
> hit to the lungs would be fatal.
A collapsed lung is a non-working lung. No breathe, no live. As for branding,
I wouldn't necessarily say that the nerves stop functioning, people who tend to
go in for branding, piercing, and the like either have high pain thresholds or
enjoy the adrenaline high.

losthalo

From:	George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Mon, 22 Sep 1997 04:13:13 EDT

Message no. 35 On Sun, 21 Sep 1997 15:57:04 -0500 "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117"
<KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> writes:
>
>> I don't think you'd get a bad trauma from that (Do we has medics
here?).
>> There's no bleeding, so no volume shock, pain should be minimal, as
the
>> nervs turn of in that heat (Just look at branding). I'm not even sure
a
>> hit to the lungs would be fatal.
>A collapsed lung is a non-working lung. No breathe, no live. As for
branding,
>I wouldn't necessarily say that the nerves stop functioning, people who
tend to
>go in for branding, piercing, and the like either have high pain
thresholds or
>enjoy the adrenaline high.

Well, I'm not a medic(yet, working on getting the money for school), but
I do know that a massive burn will cause shock as your nervous system
overloads. And it's not so much that the nerves shut off during branding
or a high pain threshold, but that the branding kills the nerve endings
and so you are physically incapable of feeling pain after a second. And
you can survive on a single lung; the chances of a front-on body shot
hitting both sides of the lung are extremely remote. And the lung
collapsing isn't the thing to really worry about, what SOHULD be worried
about is whether that laser vaporized enough tissue to have vaporized
part of your lung. Collapsed lungs can be reinflated, collapsed lungs
with chunks missing are infinitely more difficult to handle.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar

"If you took the IQ's of everyone here and converted it to a temperature,
you could lightly toast a marshmallow." - CHS Class of '93 Yearbook
quote.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1
GAT/! d- s+:+ a-- C++(++++)>$ U+ P? L>++ E? W++(--) N- o? K- w(--) O>+ M
!V PS+ PE+ Y+ PGP t+ 5+++ X R++ tv+ b+(+++) DI++ D--- G e h!-- r*
y+/-(--)
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:46:00 GMT

Message no. 36 on 21.09.97 KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU wrote:

K> > Huh? Burn the entire target? Yeah, that's gonna take a *LOT* of energy!
K> > (Just imagine that!)
K>
K> Uhhhhh. I was talking about getting enough heat int he target to actually
K> begin to burn it, not burning up the entire target.

Thought so.

K> > Yup. Another point against lasers. A weapons that comes with build in
K> > medical help (i.e. sealing the wound, disinfesting(sp?) and stuff like
K> > that) isn't that good for that, is it?
K> Well, having a large burn doesn't really help the wound. If not treated
K> (or even if they are) they pose a serious threat to your life, through
K> shock if nothing else.

It doesn't bleed. That's quite a help.

K> > I don't think you'd get a bad trauma from that (Do we has medics here?).
K> > There's no bleeding, so no volume shock, pain should be minimal, as the
K> > nervs turn of in that heat (Just look at branding). I'm not even sure a
K> > hit to the lungs would be fatal.
K> A collapsed lung is a non-working lung. No breathe, no live.

Sounds reasonable :)

K> As for
K> branding, I wouldn't necessarily say that the nerves stop functioning,
K> people who tend to go in for branding, piercing, and the like either have
K> high pain thresholds or enjoy the adrenaline high.

Ermmm...you don't know any people, who have these kind of things, do you?
Actually, the silver used for branding is about 500°C hot, because it has
to make the neves stop sending signals (you wouldn't wnt the person to
jump up or anything, do you?). And for piercing: Usually you get a
sedation(sp?).

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------

From:	"Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:57:18 -0500

Message no. 37 You wrote:
> Ermmm...you don't know any people, who have these kind of things, do you?
> Actually, the silver used for branding is about 500°C hot, because it has
> to make the neves stop sending signals (you wouldn't wnt the person to
> jump up or anything, do you?). And for piercing: Usually you get a
> sedation(sp?).
Nope. Nope. Nope. Piercing is usually done without sedative, though
occasionally those who don't like the pain but want the piercing do have
something to reduce the pain I think. But it's the exception. I've had my
tongue pierced, and a nipple, and both were done without any sort of painkiller
or sedative, that would have defeated the whole purpose. It's an incredible
experience, and quite bearable for many people. Not that this is on topic, but
just to be clear. *shrug*

losthalo

From:	James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Wed, 24 Sep 1997 04:26:47 GMT

Message no. 38 On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:46:00 GMT, Tobias Berghoff wrote:

> on 21.09.97 KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU wrote:

> K> > Yup. Another point against lasers. A weapons that comes with build in
> K> > medical help (i.e. sealing the wound, disinfesting(sp?) and stuff like
> K> > that) isn't that good for that, is it?
> K> Well, having a large burn doesn't really help the wound. If not treated
> K> (or even if they are) they pose a serious threat to your life, through
> K> shock if nothing else.
>
> It doesn't bleed. That's quite a help.

You're confusing low-powered continuous beam medical lasers with pulsed
weapon-grade lasers. Military lasers will fire a powerful laser pulse,
which superheats an area of the target's flesh and causing a steam
explosion. This explosion will cause massive bleeding.

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

From:	Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:56:00 GMT

Message no. 39 on 24.09.97 jlindsay@******.CA wrote:

j> > K> > Yup. Another point against lasers. A weapons that comes with build
j> > K> > in medical help (i.e. sealing the wound, disinfesting(sp?) and stuff
j> > K> > like that) isn't that good for that, is it?
j> > K> Well, having a large burn doesn't really help the wound. If not
j> > K> treated (or even if they are) they pose a serious threat to your life,
j> > K> through shock if nothing else.
j> >
j> > It doesn't bleed. That's quite a help.
j>
j> You're confusing low-powered continuous beam medical lasers with pulsed
j> weapon-grade lasers. Military lasers will fire a powerful laser pulse,
j> which superheats an area of the target's flesh and causing a steam
j> explosion. This explosion will cause massive bleeding.

Doesn't that require extremely much power and a laser that's lightyears
ahead of what we've got today?

P.S. Your RE-to field is messed up. It doesn't point to the list

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------

From:	Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:15:00 GMT

Message no. 40 on 23.09.97 KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU wrote:

K> > Ermmm...you don't know any people, who have these kind of things, do you?
K> > Actually, the silver used for branding is about 500°C hot, because it has
K> > to make the neves stop sending signals (you wouldn't wnt the person to
K> > jump up or anything, do you?). And for piercing: Usually you get a
K> > sedation(sp?).
K> Nope. Nope. Nope. Piercing is usually done without sedative, though
K> occasionally those who don't like the pain but want the piercing do have
K> something to reduce the pain I think.

Most of the people I know that have a piercing, did get a sedative. That's
all except a masochistic person.

K> But it's the exception. I've had my
K> tongue pierced, and a nipple, and both were done without any sort of
K> painkiller or sedative, that would have defeated the whole purpose.

Hmmm...why? To me, the idea is the same as having earrings or makeup. If
you do it for the pain, there are better ways.

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------

From:	James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:26:00 GMT

Message no. 41 On Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:56:00 GMT, Tobias Berghoff wrote:

> on 24.09.97 jlindsay@******.CA wrote:
>
> j> > K> > Yup. Another point against lasers. A weapons that comes with
build
> j> > K> > in medical help (i.e. sealing the wound, disinfesting(sp?) and
stuff
> j> > K> > like that) isn't that good for that, is it?
> j> > K> Well, having a large burn doesn't really help the wound. If not
> j> > K> treated (or even if they are) they pose a serious threat to your
life,
> j> > K> through shock if nothing else.
> j> >
> j> > It doesn't bleed. That's quite a help.
> j>
> j> You're confusing low-powered continuous beam medical lasers with pulsed
> j> weapon-grade lasers. Military lasers will fire a powerful laser pulse,
> j> which superheats an area of the target's flesh and causing a steam
> j> explosion. This explosion will cause massive bleeding.
>
> Doesn't that require extremely much power and a laser that's lightyears
> ahead of what we've got today?

It requires a lot of power but we can do it today. The problem is that
such lasers (complete with their power sources) are far from man-portable.
The subject of this thread is about the Ares lasers of the 2050s so I
assumed we were still talking about Shadowrun lasers.

> P.S. Your RE-to field is messed up. It doesn't point to the list

I subscribe to many lists and I haven't had a problem with any of them. If
I changed my RE field every time I posted to Shadowrn, I'd have to manually
change it back whenever I sent mail to anyone else (otherwise any replies
I'd get from those lists would end up here). And I'm not about to do that.

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

From:	"Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:37:55 -0500

Message no. 42 You wrote:
> Most of the people I know that have a piercing, did get a sedative. That's
> all except a masochistic person.
Well, I can understand pain as a pleasurable stimulus, in certain limited ways
(piercing is one of them, btw). Honestly don't know of anyone who's had
sedatives for the experience (and I think they're missing out on something,
really). I don't still have either of my pierces (big frown) due to migration,
but the experience for both was incredible.

> Hmmm...why? To me, the idea is the same as having earrings or makeup. If
> you do it for the pain, there are better ways.
Not to most people who get piercings, I think... But if you know better ways,
share? :)

losthalo

From:	Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:14:46 +0200

Message no. 43 >j> You're confusing low-powered continuous beam medical lasers with pulsed
>j> weapon-grade lasers. Military lasers will fire a powerful laser pulse,
>j> which superheats an area of the target's flesh and causing a steam
>j> explosion. This explosion will cause massive bleeding.
>
>Doesn't that require extremely much power and a laser that's lightyears
>ahead of what we've got today?

It actually requires a laser that is about 60 years ahead of what we've got
today.. :)
(And lots of power, yes, but it appears that problem's been solved.).

Actually, for a nice, clean burn you need very long, sustained beams.
(A few seconds, and with pinpoint accuracy.). The damage and way the MP laser
works is far more consistent with the heat burst version. (May fire SA
does not imply long, sustained beams.). If you check SDI laser footage
the targets *explode* - they don't get nice holes drilled in them, so the
tech is there today, but it's .. a lot.. larger than the SR ones.

From:	Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:15:04 -0400

Message no. 44 Who on this list has had a character who's started out with an Ares MP
Laser? Just curious on what someone's experience on using this "unique"
weapon was like. Am currently thinking of equipping a recurring NPC with
it.

Lates,

Dust

From:	Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:19:29 -0500

Message no. 45 At 11:15 AM 9/26/97 -0400, Dust wrote:
# Who on this list has had a character who's started out with an Ares MP
# Laser? Just curious on what someone's experience on using this "unique"
# weapon was like. Am currently thinking of equipping a recurring NPC with
# it.

One of my players has one, though he's only been able to use it once.
It ripped through a few Mob guys pretty easily, but they'd already been
weakened by the groups Physad.

--
/- justin@****.mcp.com -------------------- justin@******.net -\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

From:	Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:30:24 -0600

Message no. 46 At 11:15 9/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Who on this list has had a character who's started out with an Ares MP
>Laser? Just curious on what someone's experience on using this "unique"
>weapon was like. Am currently thinking of equipping a recurring NPC with
>it.

Started out with an MP laser? Buhahahahaha

Sorry..had to laugh at that one.

-Aj

-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/jurybench

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:21:36 +0100

Message no. 47 Dust said on 11:15/26 Sep 97...

> Who on this list has had a character who's started out with an Ares MP
> Laser? Just curious on what someone's experience on using this "unique"
> weapon was like. Am currently thinking of equipping a recurring NPC with
> it.

A little advice: if you don't want the players to have one, then don't
give it to an NPC that they get to kill. A recurring NPC could be a good
candidate to be equipped with it, though, as long as he's not likely to be
scheduled for termination by the PCs anytime soon...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zo buurman, ik hier?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:21:36 +0100

Message no. 48 Rune Fostervoll said on 17:14/26 Sep 97...

> Actually, for a nice, clean burn you need very long, sustained beams.
> (A few seconds, and with pinpoint accuracy.).

Exactly why it's totally unsuitable for military purposes. Except in Star
Trek, you can't shoot a weapon at a target for a few seconds without
changing the point of impact...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zo buurman, ik hier?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:56:29 -0400

Message no. 49 Gurth said:
>Dust said on 11:15/26 Sep 97...
>
>> Who on this list has had a character who's started out with an Ares MP
>> Laser? Just curious on what someone's experience on using this
"unique"
>> weapon was like. Am currently thinking of equipping a recurring NPC with
>> it.
>
>A little advice: if you don't want the players to have one, then don't
>give it to an NPC that they get to kill. A recurring NPC could be a good
>candidate to be equipped with it, though, as long as he's not likely to be
>scheduled for termination by the PCs anytime soon...
>

Speaking as someone who's character 'inherited' an MP Laser during a run,
I'd say they're effectively worthless in the course of a normal run.
They're obscenely heavy, impossible to hide, really distinctive, and kind of
short on ammo. Wylde has fired it a total of twice in the six months or so
that he's had it. Once was to kill a vampire, and the other was during a
meet that we knew was a setup and were expecting a serious fight.

If the PCs get one,it should be pretty obvious to them that using such a
weapon will make them somewhat distinctive as well, which should be enough
to discourage using it to the point of imbalance if the other drawbacks
aren't adequate.

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Berek Thunderfist, Wolf Lord of the Blackmane Company
-Freelance Corporate Espionage Agent
-Tech Priest in Training
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Ares MP Laser
Date:	Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:55:05 +0100

Message no. 50 Duncan McNeill-Burton said on 14:56/27 Sep 97...

[laser weapons]
> If the PCs get one,it should be pretty obvious to them that using such a
> weapon will make them somewhat distinctive as well, which should be enough
> to discourage using it to the point of imbalance if the other drawbacks
> aren't adequate.

On the one occasion I let a laser fall into the PCs' hands, I arranged for
it to be slightly broken (they retrieved it from a crashed helicopter).
One of the PCs managed to fix it, and then they sold it on immediately
without even trying to use it. I believe they got about 500,000Y for it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zo buurman, ik hier?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Message no. 51 In a message dated 97-09-27 14:58:07 EDT, you write:

> Speaking as someone who's character 'inherited' an MP Laser during a run,
> I'd say they're effectively worthless in the course of a normal run.
> They're obscenely heavy, impossible to hide, really distinctive, and kind
of
> short on ammo. Wylde has fired it a total of twice in the six months or
so
> that he's had it. Once was to kill a vampire, and the other was during a
> meet that we knew was a setup and were expecting a serious fight.
>
> If the PCs get one,it should be pretty obvious to them that using such a
> weapon will make them somewhat distinctive as well, which should be enough
> to discourage using it to the point of imbalance if the other drawbacks
> aren't adequate.

There is something else also, has anyone ever used an MP-laser as a
lightsaber ?

-AirWisp (Mike)

Message no. 52 > There is something else also, has anyone ever used an MP-laser as a
> lightsaber ?
>
> -AirWisp (Mike)

Yeow, that is like using a Berret Sniper Rifle for a lock pick.

Some people like to be a bit more... subtle *Purr*.

Just last night I had a member of my team fire off a Berret to take out a
camera. I swear it took EVERY ounce of my control to not pull my Guardians
on him. If my fellow Phys Ad partner Archimedes hadn't been there to hold
me back... Needless to say, the guards were otherwise occupied while we
were slipping in, until Mr. Boom Boom pulls out his .50 cal and blows away
a camera. "Holy cow Joe, one of those guys from the OTHER team has a .50
cal! Send more reinforcements!"

*Grumble* I wish some people could be more subtle, it's why I carry *pistols*
and nothing heavier.

Cheers,
Cheetah

Message no. 53 You wrote:
> *Grumble* I wish some people could be more subtle, it's why I carry *pistols*
> and nothing heavier.
Well, I thought the Barret was silenced anyway... Don't recall for certain,
and my FOF isn't handy. As for carrying nothing but pistols... You do realize
you prolly benefit now and again from the fact that they *do* carry bigger
guns, right? You choose the right gun for the job, be that a Streetline
Special or a Walther rifle. Pisols often come to a stop on any sort of armor,
whereas the rifles can punch through it.

losthalo

Message no. 54 losthalo said:
>You wrote:
>> *Grumble* I wish some people could be more subtle, it's why I carry
*pistols*
>> and nothing heavier.
>Well, I thought the Barret was silenced anyway... Don't recall for
certain,
>and my FOF isn't handy. As for carrying nothing but pistols... You do
realize
>you prolly benefit now and again from the fact that they *do* carry bigger
>guns, right? You choose the right gun for the job, be that a Streetline
>Special or a Walther rifle. Pisols often come to a stop on any sort of
armor,
>whereas the rifles can punch through it.
>

You are correct...the Barrett is silenced...in the Shadowtalk in FOF its
described as being so quiet the spotter doesn't even hear it fire, which is
far quieter than a burst-firing heavy pistol, and far more accurate,
especially if you're Gun Fu'ing your way through life. Increased accuracy
and decreased noise sounds pretty subtle to me, unless you can avoid contact
entirely :)

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Berek Thunderfist, Wolf Lord of the Blackmane Company
-Freelance Corporate Espionage Agent
-Tech Priest in Training
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill

Message no. 55 On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:19:01 -0400 Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM> writes:
>There is something else also, has anyone ever used an MP-laser as a
>lightsaber ?

Sure!! And I use my Ingram Super-Mach for a lead sword ALL the time.....

(how, pray tell, do you even begin to go about rationalizing that?)

~Tim

Message no. 56 At 11:43 PM 9/28/97 EDT, Tim Cooper wrote:
# On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:19:01 -0400 Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM> writes:
# >There is something else also, has anyone ever used an MP-laser as a
# >lightsaber ?
#
# Sure!! And I use my Ingram Super-Mach for a lead sword ALL the time.....
#
# (how, pray tell, do you even begin to go about rationalizing that?)

it's all done with mirrors
--
/- justin@****.mcp.com -------------------- justin@******.net -\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

Message no. 57 Losthalo wrote:
> Cheetah wrote:
> > *Grumble* I wish some people could be more subtle, it's why I carry *pistols*
> > and nothing heavier.
> Well, I thought the Barret was silenced anyway... Don't recall for certain,
> and my FOF isn't handy. As for carrying nothing but pistols... You do realize
> you prolly benefit now and again from the fact that they *do* carry bigger
> guns, right? You choose the right gun for the job, be that a Streetline
> Special or a Walther rifle. Pisols often come to a stop on any sort of armor,
> whereas the rifles can punch through it.

It wasn't the just the firepower that caused us problems in this circumstance,
it was the blowing of a security camera, which made the target pay more
attention to us than it did the other SR team hitting them two floors below us.
(Actually it was the same character not a minute later blowing a satchel charge
of C4 into the hallway we had just come. I still haven't figured out why, and
I'm almost wondering if the character is a corp plant...)

For firepower, I rely on the true street sam in the group. I have no idea
how much cyberware he has in him, but let's just say when I look at him
astrally, I see part of a brain, some guts, and not much else. *Shudder*
He's got some serious boom-boom hidden away, but only pulls it when the
dragon-sized drek really hits the fan.

As for getting through armor, that's what APDS rounds are for. *wink*

Cheers,
Cheetah

Message no. 58 On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:50:32 -0500 Jaymz <justin@******.NET> writes:
>At 11:43 PM 9/28/97 EDT, Tim Cooper wrote:
># On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:19:01 -0400 Mike Bobroff>writes:

># >There is something else also, has anyone ever used an MP-laser as a
lightsaber ?
>#
># Sure!! And I use my Ingram Super-Mach for a lead sword ALL the
time.....
># (how, pray tell, do you even begin to go about rationalizing that?)
>
>it's all done with mirrors

... and a health dose of smoke. :)

~Tim (just don't tell me you were serious about the mirrors...)

Message no. 59 At 12:11 AM 9/30/97 EDT, Tim Cooper wrote:
# On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:50:32 -0500 Jaymz <justin@******.NET> writes:
# >At 11:43 PM 9/28/97 EDT, Tim Cooper wrote:
# ># On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:19:01 -0400 Mike Bobroff>writes:
#
# ># >There is something else also, has anyone ever used an MP-laser as a
# lightsaber ?
# >#
# ># Sure!! And I use my Ingram Super-Mach for a lead sword ALL the
# time.....
# ># (how, pray tell, do you even begin to go about rationalizing that?)
# >
# >it's all done with mirrors
#
# ... and a health dose of smoke. :)
#
# ~Tim (just don't tell me you were serious about the mirrors...)

don't worry, I you were on the same wavelength

J
--
/- justin@****.mcp.com -------------------- justin@******.net -\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

Message no. 60 On Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:17:08 -0500 Jaymz <justin@******.NET> writes:
>don't worry, I you were on the same wavelength

Ouch.

That was a bad one.

~Tim

Message no. 61 on 25.09.97 KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU wrote:

K> > Most of the people I know that have a piercing, did get a sedative.
K> > That's all except a masochistic person.
K> Well, I can understand pain as a pleasurable stimulus, in certain limited
K> ways (piercing is one of them, btw). Honestly don't know of anyone who's
K> had sedatives for the experience (and I think they're missing out on
K> something, really).

So I guess it's a question of who does it. All the people I know do it,
becuse the like the looks and -I guess- because it makes them look like
rebels (which sucks, IMO).

K> > Hmmm...why? To me, the idea is the same as having earrings or makeup. If
K> > you do it for the pain, there are better ways.
K> Not to most people who get piercings, I think...

Pretty much dependant on what kind of people you ask...

K> But if you know better ways, share? :)

Well, most include knifes, needles and various hot objects...be creative
(no, I don't like that stuff)

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------

Message no. 62 You wrote:
> So I guess it's a question of who does it. All the people I know do it,
> becuse the like the looks and -I guess- because it makes them look like
> rebels (which sucks, IMO).
Well, I try not to be judgemental of people's motives on these sorts of things,
given that I've taken enough shit from enough morons on the 'Get a haircut!'
line alone... But I think there is a certain line to be drawn. If you got it
done because you *like* it, nothing's wrong. If you got it as a 'message' to
other people, or to prove something to others, maybe you did it for the wrong
reasons, and you're being stupid. And while a lot of the people who get body
piercing nowadays fall into the latter category, in the long run it doesn't
really matter overmuch.

> Well, most include knifes, needles and various hot objects...be creative
> (no, I don't like that stuff)
Well, yeah, I thought you were going to share Ancient Chinese Secrets(TM) or
something. ;) While not really versed in those, I do know about them, and even
a few people that engage in them. :) And I'm still convinced until I'm
involved with someone that doesn't, that almost everyone has a 'kink' of some
sort...

losthalo, who's prolly waaaay off-opic, but figures someone could get a
character concept going out of something in there (rationalization mode, off)

Message no. 63 on 05.10.97 KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU wrote:
K> You wrote:
K> > So I guess it's a question of who does it. All the people I know do it,
K> > becuse the like the looks and -I guess- because it makes them look like
K> > rebels (which sucks, IMO).
K> Well, I try not to be judgemental of people's motives on these sorts of
K> things, given that I've taken enough shit from enough morons on the 'Get a
K> haircut!' line alone...

<aol>
Me too!
</aol>

K> But I think there is a certain line to be drawn.
K> If you got it done because you *like* it, nothing's wrong.

100% agreed.

K> > Well, most include knifes, needles and various hot objects...be creative
K> > (no, I don't like that stuff)
K> Well, yeah, I thought you were going to share Ancient Chinese Secrets(TM)

Know. The are (c), so I can't tell you.

K> losthalo, who's prolly waaaay off-opic, but figures someone could get a
K> character concept going out of something in there (rationalization mode,
K> off)

Hey look! It says "Ares MP Laser"!!!

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------

Mailing List Logs for

Further Reading

Disclaimer