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Message no. 1
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 16:54:20 -0500
The Ares Viper Slivergun... a most impressive weapon, no?

Here's my question...

Damage is listed at 9S(f)...

It's a light pistol that uses heavy pistol ranges... (so sayeth the rulebook)

So does it do 9S(f) per shot for a 12D(f) three round burst
Or does it do 6M(f) per shot and 9S(f) when firing a burst?

ALSO!

It fires bursts, but it's silenced...

Do you use silencer or sound suppressor mods?
Do you use silencer for single shots and SS for bursts?



-- Bob Ooton
No longer a Mohican... just a guy confused about a weird weapon
Message no. 2
From: Scott Taylor Spencer <sts100z@********.CC.ODU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 18:52:00 -0400
On Wed, 5 Apr 1995, Bob Ooton wrote:

> The Ares Viper Slivergun... a most impressive weapon, no?
>
> Here's my question...
>
> Damage is listed at 9S(f)...
>
> It's a light pistol that uses heavy pistol ranges... (so sayeth the rulebook)
>
> So does it do 9S(f) per shot for a 12D(f) three round burst
> Or does it do 6M(f) per shot and 9S(f) when firing a burst?
_______________

I would say that it has a base of 9(s) that can be scaled up to 12D(f)>
_______________
> ALSO!
>
> It fires bursts, but it's silenced...
>
> Do you use silencer or sound suppressor mods?
> Do you use silencer for single shots and SS for bursts?
> _____________
> I use the silencer mods, because it is an intergal part of the weapon
and was designed specifically for this reason.
______________>
>
> No longer a Mohican... just a guy confused about a weird weapon
>

_______________________________________________________________________________


"Come Friends Run With me Towards Danger"
-Unknown MST3K quote

Scott Spencer
sts100z@********.cc.odu.edu

"Nothing can stop us......we're on a mission from Glod"
-Cliff the Troll from Terry Prachett's Soul Music
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message no. 3
From: NIGHTFOX <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 17:17:19 -0700
>The Ares Viper Slivergun... a most impressive weapon, no?

very

>Damage is listed at 9S(f)...
>It's a light pistol that uses heavy pistol ranges... (so sayeth the rulebook)
>
>So does it do 9S(f) per shot for a 12D(f) three round burst
>Or does it do 6M(f) per shot and 9S(f) when firing a burst?

Its base damage is 9S(f) it will go up to 12D(f) when used in BF mode.
All damages given are for the weapons before BF and FA mods.

>ALSO!
>It fires bursts, but it's silenced...
>Do you use silencer or sound suppressor mods?

they say its silenced - use silencer mods

>Do you use silencer for single shots and SS for bursts?

If the weapon does not come with a silencer to begin with, go with the normal
rules.

Silencer - SS and SA -2 conc, +4 TN for perception
Sound Suppressor - BF and FA, -2 Conc +2 TN for perception


Nightfox
Message no. 4
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 00:40:02 GMT
> The Ares Viper Slivergun... a most impressive weapon, no?

Most surely so.

> Here's my question...
> Damage is listed at 9S(f)...
> It's a light pistol that uses heavy pistol ranges... (so sayeth the rulebook)
> So does it do 9S(f) per shot for a 12D(f) three round burst
> Or does it do 6M(f) per shot and 9S(f) when firing a burst?

Since everything else lists the damage for a single shot (even weapons that
only fire full-auto) then it's 12D(f) for each of two bursts. Ouch. Even
with double impact that's going to hurt. And you have two bursts instead of
the one you get with, say, a Savalette Guardian. Ouch twice in succession.

> ALSO!
> It fires bursts, but it's silenced...
> Do you use silencer or sound suppressor mods?
> Do you use silencer for single shots and SS for bursts?

SR2 says it's silenced. I go with the silencer modifiers, but there is an
extra penalty for burst fire. Technically I mumble that it's because it only
fires a specific type of flechette ammunition which is easier to suppress but
also rather unusual. Not even illegal, but unusual: enough that sales assistants
remember "the big tribal-looking guy, yeah, he wanted two boxes of Viper rounds,
he was here all right" longer than otherwise. Not a drawback of the Guardian,
which also fires APDS or explosive ammo.

The Viper's combination of magazine size, damage and burst fire do make it
a very nasty weapon in the right hands, but all you need is someone hiding
behind cover to negate it. And forget about damaging vehicles, too. It's a
popular weapon among my players, and one of my characters carries one as a
back-up pistol: but it's not universally used, which is the hallmark of an
unbalanced weapon. When *everyone* uses the same gun, the system's out of
balance :-)

BTW, all these weapons are...interesting to fire, or at least the nearest real
equivalents I've seen (the Glock 18 by repute, and in person a broken M1911A1
that emptied a 18-round clip of .38 Super in just under a second...five times,
as we all tried to see "if it was fixed yet"). The M1911A1 was a Para-Ordnance
custom job with wide frame and a ported barrel, and it still needed both hands
and a lot of determination to get most of the rounds on target at 20 yards. A
burst limiter would have helped a lot, though. Five or six was the shortest
burst we managed to get (the ROF was enormous) but that usually meant all on
target. After about six the climb pulled them skywards: we didn't perforate the
roof, but the backstop hadn't been punctured *that* high for a while.


--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or
for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.
Paul J. Adam (still a Mohican and proud) paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 5
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 22:58:05 -0400
The Viper's damage is factored for 3-round burst fire; it's damage is 9S,
not 12D. The silencer is integral; it is used for all fire modes.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 6
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 12:54:41 +0930
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> The Viper's damage is factored for 3-round burst fire; it's damage is 9S,
> not 12D. The silencer is integral; it is used for all fire modes.

That makes sense as it's really a light pistol (base 6L => 6M (flechettes)
=> 9S (three round burst)). However, the fire modes are both SA and BF.
Futhermore, the description of the Viper says that the flechette damage is
already factored in, but doesn't say anything about the burst fire.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:03:44 +0200
>It's a light pistol that uses heavy pistol ranges... (so sayeth the rulebook)

Best to ignore that bit, IMHO.

>So does it do 9S(f) per shot for a 12D(f) three round burst
>Or does it do 6M(f) per shot and 9S(f) when firing a burst?

I always took it that the 9S(f) means the +1 Damage from flechette rounds
had already been incorporated into the Damage Code -- it has a normal DC of
9M, but this goes to 9S against unarmored targets.

>ALSO!
>It fires bursts, but it's silenced...
>
>Do you use silencer or sound suppressor mods?
>Do you use silencer for single shots and SS for bursts?

Silencer rules, and only when firing semi-auto.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
...the insects are huge and the poison's all been used...
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 8
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:16:36 BST
Wasn't the Viper in the big shadowrun FAQ that's on one of the FTP sites
somewhere?

AMMO:
I think they decided to explain that the Viper didn't actually fire
regular Pistol rounds, it was something like the sliver-giun from the
chrome book, in that it was a flywheel made of cermaic, with a blade
type-thing which, when the triiger is pressed cuts slivers off the
fly-wheel, and they fly forward down the barrel. Hence there's no propellant
and so a lot less noise; except the cutting of the cermiac stuff (maybe it
was plastic actually, seeing as monowire doesn't go through some ceramics).
This also exaplins the 'huge'ammo capacity for a 'light' pistol.


RANGES:
What the problem with a 'light' pistol with heavy ranges, see all the muzzle
blast when you pull the trigger, that's propellant that's still burning
(correct me if I'm wrong gun-heads), if all that force was still contained
behind the bullet (like say in a longer barrel), then the round would go
further.

I have gun mods like this, extended barrel and short-barrel, which basicly
alter the range of your weapon from one weapon class to the next longer
or shoreter (LP up to HP, SMG down to HP, etc). So you can get Long-barrel
variants of AR's with Sports ranges, etc, course then they're less
concealable....

DAMAGE CODE:
It's a 9M heavy pistol, in a light pistol frame, because it doesn't
have to have space for the magazine, just one small fly-wheel in the centre
(which BTW, is a bitch to reload in combat), and doesn't need a long barrel
to ensure all the propellant is cooked off, because it doesn;t have any,
the plastic slivers are already going as fast as they can when the trigger is
pulled.

SILENCER:
Find the difference between the TNo for a silenced single shot, and the
TNo for a single shot, apply this to the normal TNo for a burst, though
I suspect it's the same difference...


Technical enough for ya? Anymore questions? BTW I do not and have never
possessed a firearm, I;m Welsh, if the gun-heads want to correct me, be
my guest.


As a group, we don't use it, them drekky little packet-flechette things just
bounce right off, can't stand em myself, they're even worse than Hollow-point
on armour. Use APFSF's, half armour, -1 wound level, like toady's anti-kevlar
flechette rounds, much better.


Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)
With help from Renegade, who has 9 firearms and so knows a lot more about the
subject.
Message no. 9
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 21:44:32 +1000
Paul Jonathan Adam writes:

> Since everything else lists the damage for a single shot (even weapons that
> only fire full-auto) then it's 12D(f) for each of two bursts. Ouch. Even
> with double impact that's going to hurt. And you have two bursts instead of
> the one you get with, say, a Savalette Guardian. Ouch twice in succession.

Yep, by the rules, that is correct. Very nasty. I have decided that it is,
as the book says, a light pitol with heavy pitol ranges. Hence it does 6L =>
6M(f) => 9S(f) with burst. The most important thing to remember is that it
suffers fairly shockingly from recoil, since you cannot put a GV onto it as
it already has a silencer on the barrel.

> SR2 says it's silenced. I go with the silencer modifiers, but there is an
> extra penalty for burst fire.

Yeah, treat it as a combination silencer/sound suppressor. So if you are
firing SA, it gets the +4 perception modifer, while if you fire BF, it only
gets +2. The thing is, after all, built into the weapon.

> Technically I mumble that it's because it only fires a specific type of
> flechette ammunition which is easier to suppress but also rather unusual.

Actually, as far as the rules are concerned, it fires the exact same ammo as
other light pistols. It is only peoples interpretations of just what the
Viper is that have given it different ammo types. If you just rule that it
fires standard ammo, then you have very few problems.

> but it's not universally used, which is the hallmark of an unbalanced
> weapon. When *everyone* uses the same gun, the system's out of balance :-)

BTW, do you find that the Ingram Smartgun is vastly superior to all other
SMGs?

--------------
P Ward writes:

> [Good Viper explanation]

OTOH, one can make the Viper something really special. Like this, with its
own set of ammo etc. Pretty cool actually.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
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b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 10
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 21:32:22 +0930
Damion Milliken wrote:
>
> BTW, do you find that the Ingram Smartgun is vastly superior to all other
> SMGs?

I find the Smartgun vastly cheaper, but the integral Gas Vent is rather
poor, and you can't just take it out and replace it. (I've ruled in the
past that it was possible to dismantle the gun, and put fittings in for
another Gas Vent, but it's a Firearms B/R test).

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 11
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 19:05:28 GMT
I really don't see the point of the 'flywheel' system. You'd get a horrible
radial spray, more like a shotgun than an accurate pistol, and the more you
tried to choke it the more you'd lose. Also, ever been in a machine shop when
someone's using the grinding wheels? Not at all stealthy. Also, what keeps
the flywheel spinning that fast? If it's inertia, the gun is too well gyro-
stabilised to aim... If it's powered, what powers it, how long do the batteries
last, et cetera, et cetera... Interesting idea, but not credible in my game.
(Of course if your future technology is different... :-) )

Flechette rounds, case-telescoped, are pretty compact as it is, and making
them caseless helps even more. Considering that the Viper can only fire
flechette, and weapons like the Ares Crusader has a magazine of 40 in the same
concealability, I don't see it as unreasonable.

As for ranges, there are several weapons firing light pistol ammo at heavy
pistol ranges and vice versa: so the slivergun is not unique in that regard
either.

Damage is high, but then so's a Savalette Guardian, and you can load that
with APDS or EX explosive. I'd guess a rather specific ammo type, optimised
for hitting power and easy suppression, which needs the weapon to be designed
around it. Viper ammo isn't compatible with anything else...

As for the silencer, I say it's got the silencer mods in single shot and
a suppressor's effect at reducing burst-fire noise. Seems reasonable: this
is a rather specialist weapon.

I've always allowed combining gas vents and suppressors. After all, weapons
like the MP-5SD work pretty well today... :-) Otherwise there's almost no
point at all in having autofire-capable suppressed weapons. The Ranger SM-3
uses a combined silencer/gas-vent, so the rules permit it.

So the Viper has no direct equivalent, but approaches a modified Beretta 93R
with a built-in silencer firing subsonic case-telescoped flechette ammunition.
Whew.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or
for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 11:33:14 +0200
>> BTW, do you find that the Ingram Smartgun is vastly superior to all other
>> SMGs?

Yes. It's a lot cheaper and better concealable than most other SMGs in
Shadowrun (compare it to that Beretta 70 from the SSC...)

>I find the Smartgun vastly cheaper, but the integral Gas Vent is rather
>poor, and you can't just take it out and replace it. (I've ruled in the
>past that it was possible to dismantle the gun, and put fittings in for
>another Gas Vent, but it's a Firearms B/R test).

I allow replacement of any part of a firearm, whether or not the book says
it's fixed or not. My reasoning is that, if you can't find any screws, you
can always use a hacksaw :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
...the insects are huge and the poison's all been used...
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 13
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 21:33:34 +1000
Paul Jonathan Adam writes:

> Considering that the Viper can only fire flechette, and weapons like the
> Ares Crusader has a magazine of 40 in the same concealability, I don't see
> it as unreasonable.

It nowhere says that Vipers can only fire flechette rounds. It merely says
"This pistol fires flechette ammunition..." I guess you could interpret this
to mean that it can _only_ fire flechette ammunition, but likewise you can
interpret it to mean that it _usually_ fires flechette ammunition. And it
isn't really the magazine size that is important, it is the damage. The
Viper does heaps more damage than the Crusader, who cares if it has 10 less
shots?

> Viper ammo isn't compatible with anything else...

Probably a good ruling, but again, not in the vanilla rules.

> I've always allowed combining gas vents and suppressors. After all, weapons
> like the MP-5SD work pretty well today... :-) Otherwise there's almost no
> point at all in having autofire-capable suppressed weapons. The Ranger SM-3
> uses a combined silencer/gas-vent, so the rules permit it.

Yes, I see your point here. But one could easily rule that the SM-3 has a
"special", or "custom" silencer/GV combo. But silence/GV combos are
possible, so they probably shouldn't be ruled out. Make 'em more difficult
to make, or more expensive to buy I guess.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 16:35:01 +0200
>Yes, I see your point here. But one could easily rule that the SM-3 has a
>"special", or "custom" silencer/GV combo. But silence/GV combos
are
>possible, so they probably shouldn't be ruled out. Make 'em more difficult
>to make, or more expensive to buy I guess.

And even if you won't allow silencer/GV combinations, I bet players with
cash to spare buy an SM-3 and remove the one from that rifle and put it on
something else...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
he's not trying to catch your eye; he's just trying to get a life
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 15
From: Allen Versfeld <allen@******.3ROCK.CO.ZA>
Subject: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:14:51 +0000
The Ares Viper slivergun, as we all know, does 9S, using flechette
rounds, and fire mode: Question: In the description, it is described as alight
pistol. LP's usually do 6L, so does this 9S include flechette AND
burst?

Reason I ask is because one of my players has decided to modify the
viper to use solid rounds, but this then gives him 12s from a
handgun, with excellent concealability...

needless to say, I don't like this, specially when everyon else wants
one too...
Allen Versfeld
"Let's Fight!"
"Them's Fightin' Words!"
moe@***.scientist.com
Message no. 16
From: James Paulsen <lowfyr@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:35:15 -0600
Allen Versfeld wrote:
>
> The Ares Viper slivergun, as we all know, does 9S, using flechette
> rounds, and fire mode: Question: In the description, it is described as alight
> pistol. LP's usually do 6L, so does this 9S include flechette AND
> burst?
>
> Reason I ask is because one of my players has decided to modify the
> viper to use solid rounds, but this then gives him 12s from a
> handgun, with excellent concealability...
>

It is my impression that the slivergun was made to fire flechette rounds
exclusively and those rounds do 9s. If he wanted to convert it to fire
solid rounds, it would become a normal light pistol, no longer capable
of 9s because it no longer fires flechettes, putting back to the 6L
catagory. Of course that's just my opinion, and you know what they say
about opinions...
Jim
Message no. 17
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 11:20:57 +1100
On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Allen Versfeld wrote:

> The Ares Viper slivergun, as we all know, does 9S, using flechette
> rounds, and fire mode: Question: In the description, it is described as alight
> pistol. LP's usually do 6L, so does this 9S include flechette AND
> burst?
>
> Reason I ask is because one of my players has decided to modify the
> viper to use solid rounds, but this then gives him 12s from a
> handgun, with excellent concealability...

Isn't the stats for the Silvergun for the flechette rounds? Which would
indicate that for normal slugs, the damage rating would be 8S? (As f.
rounds +1 Power) How on earth did he get 12S?

My munchkin detector is going crazy! They're everywhere Sergent!

Shaman

_________________________________________________________
In Real Life: Calvin Hsieh
In Neo-Arch Real Life: Shaman

Neurological problems 101:
Kluver-Bucy Syndrome.
Occurs with the bilateral removal of the temporal lobe,
including amygdala.
Symptoms: Overattentiveness, hyperorality, psychic
blindness, hypersexuality, absense of emotional response.
_________________________________________________________
Message no. 18
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:04:17 EST
On Sat, 8 Feb 1997 11:20:57 +1100 Calvin Hsieh
<u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU> writes:
>On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Allen Versfeld wrote:
>
>> The Ares Viper slivergun, as we all know, does 9S, using flechette
>> rounds, and fire mode: Question: In the description, it is
>described as alight
>> pistol. LP's usually do 6L, so does this 9S include flechette AND
>> burst?
>>
>> Reason I ask is because one of my players has decided to modify the
>> viper to use solid rounds, but this then gives him 12s from a
>> handgun, with excellent concealability...
>
>Isn't the stats for the Silvergun for the flechette rounds? Which
>would
>indicate that for normal slugs, the damage rating would be 8S? (As f.
>rounds +1 Power) How on earth did he get 12S?
>

No, by the stats listed, damage using normal slugs (I wouldn't allow it,
the modification needed would make it more economical to chop down an HP
that was already BF-capable, IMO) would be 9M, flechette adds 1 to the
damage level, not the power level.


--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 19
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:33:37 EST
On Sat, 8 Feb 1997 11:20:57 +1100 Calvin Hsieh
<u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU> writes:
>On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Allen Versfeld wrote:
>
>Isn't the stats for the Silvergun for the flechette rounds? Which would
>indicate that for normal slugs, the damage rating would be 8S? (As f.
>rounds +1 Power) How on earth did he get 12S?

9S plus burst fire = 12S...

>
>My munchkin detector is going crazy! They're everywhere Sergent!
>
>Shaman

~Tim
Message no. 20
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 14:27:49 +1100
> The Ares Viper slivergun, as we all know, does 9S, using flechette
> rounds, and fire mode: Question: In the description, it is described as alight
> pistol. LP's usually do 6L, so does this 9S include flechette AND
> burst?

I'm pretty sure it uses light pistol ranges - it's normally categorised
under Heavy Pistol, whose normal damage is 9m.

So you've got 9M+1 damage level due to flechette=9S.

> Reason I ask is because one of my players has decided to modify the
> viper to use solid rounds, but this then gives him 12s from a
> handgun, with excellent concealability...

Bollocks to that. Not feasible.


Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
-----------------------------------------------
Remember, no matter what they say, you can
never have enough sugar. - Michael
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 21
From: Airk <jfrank@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 22:01:38 -0700
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James Paulsen wrote:
>
> Allen Versfeld wrote:
> >
> > The Ares Viper slivergun, as we all know, does 9S, using flechette
> > rounds, and fire mode: Question: In the description, it is
described as alight
> > pistol. LP's usually do 6L, so does this 9S include flechette AND
> > burst?

Well first of all, I think you might want to look at SRII a little
closer. The Viper
is stated as being a heavy pistol (My favourite weapon!) and there is
also a little
summary about flachette rounds and how they differ regarding penetration
and the
modifiers when the target is something other than the bullet was
designed to hit.

> > Reason I ask is because one of my players has decided to modify the
> > viper to use solid rounds, but this then gives him 12s from a
> > handgun, with excellent concealability...

I am doubting that the conversion is possible; by anyone but one of the
tech's from Ares
anyway! ;)
I would rule that it is unconvertable....

*sigh* Hopefully I'm right here. Didn't refer to my book before blabbing
but I'm pretty sure.

Airk
Comic-Collector-MUSHer-Shadowrun-freak-extraordinaire

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<HTML><BODY>

<DT>James Paulsen wrote:<BR>
&gt;&nbsp;<BR>
&gt; Allen Versfeld wrote:<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; The Ares Viper slivergun, as we all know, does 9S, using
flechette<BR>
&gt; &gt; rounds, and fire mode: Question:&nbsp; In the description, it
is described as alight<BR>
&gt; &gt; pistol.&nbsp; LP's usually do 6L, so does this 9S include flechette
AND<BR>
&gt; &gt; burst?<BR>
<BR></DT>

<DT>Well first of all, I&nbsp;think you might want to look at SRII&nbsp;a
little closer. The Viper</DT>

<DT>is stated as being a heavy pistol (My favourite weapon!) and there
is also a little</DT>

<DT>summary about flachette rounds and how they differ regarding penetration
and the</DT>

<DT>modifiers when the target is something other than the bullet was designed
to hit.</DT>

<DT>&nbsp;</DT>

<DT>&gt; &gt; Reason I ask is because one of my players has decided to
modify the<BR>
&gt; &gt; viper to use solid rounds, but this then gives him 12s from a<BR>
&gt; &gt; handgun, with excellent concealability...<BR>
<BR></DT>

<DT>I am doubting that the conversion is possible; by anyone but one of
the tech's from Ares</DT>

<DT>anyway! ;)</DT>

<DT>I would rule that it is unconvertable....</DT>

<DT>&nbsp;</DT>

<DT>*sigh* Hopefully I'm right here. Didn't refer to my book before blabbing
but I'm pretty sure.&nbsp;</DT>

<DT>&nbsp;</DT>

<DT>Airk</DT>

<DT>&nbsp; Comic-Collector-MUSHer-Shadowrun-freak-extraordinaire</DT>

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Message no. 22
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 18:18:57 +1100
On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, L Canthros wrote:

SNIP
> >Isn't the stats for the Silvergun for the flechette rounds? Which
> >would
> >indicate that for normal slugs, the damage rating would be 8S? (As f.
> >rounds +1 Power) How on earth did he get 12S?
> >
>
> No, by the stats listed, damage using normal slugs (I wouldn't allow it,
> the modification needed would make it more economical to chop down an HP
> that was already BF-capable, IMO) would be 9M, flechette adds 1 to the
> damage level, not the power level.

Woops! I thought something was wrong when I was typing the reply. The
only thing I had in front of me was my PC which had a copy of my GM
screen on it. I had actually made that error on my screen. Thank God this
came up or it would have got laminated.

Shaman

_________________________________________________________
In Real Life: Calvin Hsieh
In Neo-Arch Real Life: Shaman

Neurological problems 101:
Kluver-Bucy Syndrome.
Occurs with the bilateral removal of the temporal lobe,
including amygdala.
Symptoms: Overattentiveness, hyperorality, psychic
blindness, hypersexuality, absense of emotional response.
_________________________________________________________
Message no. 23
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 23:11:42 +0000
In message <17192011803691@*****.co.za>, Allen Versfeld
<allen@******.3ROCK.CO.ZA> writes
>The Ares Viper slivergun, as we all know, does 9S, using flechette
>rounds, and fire mode: Question: In the description, it is described as alight
>pistol. LP's usually do 6L, so does this 9S include flechette AND
>burst?

No. All SR damage codes list the damage for a single round, which you
then modify for burst or full-auto. Otherwise, the Uzi III (doing 6M
damage and only firing in BF mode) would be grossly inferior to a HK227
(7M damage, SA/BF/FA) since the HK does 10S in burst mode to the Uzi's
6M.

The Viper's code includes flechette, as does the Roomsweeper (since both
can _only_ fire flechette) but not the burst mode.

>Reason I ask is because one of my players has decided to modify the
>viper to use solid rounds, but this then gives him 12s from a
>handgun, with excellent concealability...

Let him. It jams on the third shot in combat. Or, if he's too insistent,
it explodes in his hand instead. The weapon is specifically designed to
only fire flechette ammunition.

If he wants one of these he can get a Ruger Thunderbolt or a Savalette
Guardian.

>needless to say, I don't like this, specially when everyon else wants
>one too...

Make sure the drawbacks are seen. After all, if it was quick and easy,
everyone would be doing it... NPCs aren't usually too stupid. If Ares
could produde a 12S, Concealability 6 pistol they would be doing it
already. The fact that they aren't suggests there may be drawbacks to
jury-rigging this at home.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 24
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:01:13 +0100
Allen Versfeld said on 19:14/ 7 Feb 97...

> The Ares Viper slivergun, as we all know, does 9S, using flechette
> rounds, and fire mode: Question: In the description, it is described as alight
> pistol. LP's usually do 6L, so does this 9S include flechette AND
> burst?

The way I read that is that a Viper uses LP ranges, but fires HP ammo. On
top of that, it only does flechette ammo -- a single shot would be 9S(f),
and a burst 12D(f). This is nasty against unarmored targets, but as soon
as you shot at anyone _with_ armor it drops rapidly: someone wearing a
lined coat takes 5M from a shot, or 8S from a burst.

That's not much different from other pistols, like the Savelette Guardian
or any of the unofficial BF-capable heavy pistols.

> Reason I ask is because one of my players has decided to modify the
> viper to use solid rounds, but this then gives him 12s from a
> handgun, with excellent concealability...

If he modifies it for regular (ball) rounds, I'd say the gun just does 9M
like any other heavy pistol. The Conceal of 6 may be a problem, but it's
not all that bad either. As for the BF mode, if you don't allow it he'll
probably get another HP that does fire bursts as standard...

> needless to say, I don't like this, specially when everyon else wants
> one too...

You could always say that it won't work for technical reasons -- the gun
is designed to fire flechette rounds, and can't cope with the pressure
that a ball round generators, for example.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Plastic donut, can of Spam.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 25
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:01:13 +0100
Calvin Hsieh said on 11:20/ 8 Feb 97...

> Isn't the stats for the Silvergun for the flechette rounds? Which would
> indicate that for normal slugs, the damage rating would be 8S? (As f.
> rounds +1 Power) How on earth did he get 12S?

Flechettes do +1 Damage, not +1 Power, and against unarmored targets only.
The 12S must be a typo and be 12D, which is what a Viper would do against
unarmored targets when firing a burst.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Plastic donut, can of Spam.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 26
From: Craig J Wilhelm <craigwjr@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:46:00 EST
>> Reason I ask is because one of my players has decided to modify the
>> viper to use solid rounds, but this then gives him 12s from a
>> handgun, with excellent concealability...

>If he modifies it for regular (ball) rounds, I'd say the gun just does
9M
>like any other heavy pistol. The Conceal of 6 may be a problem, but it's
>not all that bad either. As for the BF mode, if you don't allow it he'll
>probably get another HP that does fire bursts as standard...

Dont forget that the Sliver gun has 30(!) rounds.

BTW: Has anyone acctually seen a Slivergun? I mean: What's it look like?
In my game one player has one and was curious as to what it looked like,
so one day we whipped up a design in our little brains. What we came up
with was a slim bull-pup design, with a some what boxy clip, seeing as it

has 30 rounds, and I decided that it fired a shorter version of a .410
shotgun
shell to answer as to *why* can only fire (FASA's) flechette rounds and
to be
rid of the (small) problem of players wanting to use ball ammo. (AFAIK,
there
aren't slugs for a .410. Correct me if I'm wrong someone. I personally
own a
.410 and would like to get some slugs... :)




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Message no. 27
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:33:26 -0700
Paul J. Adam wrote:
|
| All SR damage codes list the damage for a single round, ...

Bzzzt. The damage code for the Ruger Thunderbolt Heavy
Pistol in Lone Star is listed as 12S, and is allready
adjusted for burst fire.

Never assume anything in SR, and always read the fine print
:)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 28
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 17:51:05 +0000
In message <199702081633.JAA06567@******>, David Buehrer
<dbuehrer@****.ORG> writes
>Paul J. Adam wrote:
>|
>| All SR damage codes list the damage for a single round, ...
>
>Bzzzt. The damage code for the Ruger Thunderbolt Heavy
>Pistol in Lone Star is listed as 12S, and is allready
>adjusted for burst fire.
>
>Never assume anything in SR, and always read the fine print
>
>:)

It would help if I had Lone Star... :)

Seriously, though, does that mean the "base damage" for an Uzi III is
3L? I know it's not the greatest of weapons, but it doesn't seem _that_
bad. Ditto MMGs and HMGs and miniguns...

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 29
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 18:06:40 -0500
>Well first of all, I think you might want to look at SRII a little
>closer. The Viper
>is stated as being a heavy pistol (My favourite weapon!) and there is

Actually, i think it is a Light-heavy mix...Ammo of one, range of another.

>summary about flachette rounds and how they differ regarding penetration
>and the
>modifiers when the target is something other than the bullet was
>designed to hit.

True Flechette loses versus armored characters.

BTW, Your HTML and Higher priority is on again...

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 30
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 15:42:15 EST
On Sat, 8 Feb 1997 17:51:05 +0000 "Paul J. Adam"
<shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK> writes:
>In message <199702081633.JAA06567@******>, David Buehrer
><dbuehrer@****.ORG> writes
>>Paul J. Adam wrote:
>>|
>>| All SR damage codes list the damage for a single round, ...
>>
>>Bzzzt. The damage code for the Ruger Thunderbolt Heavy
>>Pistol in Lone Star is listed as 12S, and is allready
>>adjusted for burst fire.
>>
>>Never assume anything in SR, and always read the fine print
>>
>>:)
>
>It would help if I had Lone Star... :)
>
>Seriously, though, does that mean the "base damage" for an Uzi III is
>3L? I know it's not the greatest of weapons, but it doesn't seem
>_that_
>bad. Ditto MMGs and HMGs and miniguns...
>
Doubtful...that would make for some very pitiful guns...(the Vigilant
Rotary cannon fires 15 per phase, I think at 20D...by the above
measurement, that makes it...5(Damage Level would be one less than
Light)...eeewwwwww)

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 31
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 03:23:09 EST
On Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:46:00 EST Craig J Wilhelm <craigwjr@****.COM>
writes:
>
>BTW: Has anyone acctually seen a Slivergun? I mean: What's it look like?

I dunno...I just sorta pictured some sleek looking thing..

>In my game one player has one and was curious as to what it looked like,
>so one day we whipped up a design in our little brains. What we came up
>with was a slim bull-pup design, with a some what boxy clip, seeing as
it
>has 30 rounds, and I decided that it fired a shorter version of a .410
shotgun
>shell to answer as to *why* can only fire (FASA's) flechette rounds and
to be
>rid of the (small) problem of players wanting to use ball ammo. (AFAIK,
there
>aren't slugs for a .410. Correct me if I'm wrong someone. I personally
own a
>.410 and would like to get some slugs... :)

As for why only Flechette...I always assumed it was something on the
order of a "needle" gun. Rapidly spitting out a hail of little
needle-like slivers, not neccessarily firing something like 'shot'. The
other 'flechette' type guns in other games, that use blocks of
plastics/ceramics for ammo, come to mind. That would account for the
large clip size (more tightly packed 'slivers' than actual bullets) and
the general effect of flechette ammo.

~Tim
Message no. 32
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 10:55:37 +0100
David Buehrer said on 9:33/ 8 Feb 97...

> Paul J. Adam wrote:
> |
> | All SR damage codes list the damage for a single round, ...
>
> Bzzzt. The damage code for the Ruger Thunderbolt Heavy
> Pistol in Lone Star is listed as 12S, and is allready
> adjusted for burst fire.

AFAIK that's the only weapon that does that. I never thought it was a
smart move, though, even if it probably was done to reduce confusion about
how much damage it actually does.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Plastic donut, can of Spam.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 33
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 10:55:37 +0100
Paul J. Adam said on 17:51/ 8 Feb 97...

> Seriously, though, does that mean the "base damage" for an Uzi III is
> 3L? I know it's not the greatest of weapons, but it doesn't seem _that_
> bad. Ditto MMGs and HMGs and miniguns...

I think Lone Star is the only book where they did this. An Uzi III would
have a ridiculous base damage if that 6M already incorporated the burst
fire modifiers -- it'd be worse than a hold-out!

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Plastic donut, can of Spam.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 34
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 10:55:37 +0100
Tim P Cooper said on 3:23/ 9 Feb 97...

> > (AFAIK, there aren't slugs for a .410. Correct me if I'm wrong
> > someone. I personally own a .410 and would like to get some slugs... :)

Easy enough, I think... make them yourself :) I'm not sure how a
plastic-cased shotgun shell is reloaded (I assume .410 has plastic cases,
though I've never seen one up close or in a picture), but I know it's
possible because for an annual event in a town 5 km from where I live,
they do this with 12 gauge rounds.

> As for why only Flechette...I always assumed it was something on the
> order of a "needle" gun. Rapidly spitting out a hail of little
> needle-like slivers, not neccessarily firing something like 'shot'. The
> other 'flechette' type guns in other games, that use blocks of
> plastics/ceramics for ammo, come to mind. That would account for the
> large clip size (more tightly packed 'slivers' than actual bullets) and
> the general effect of flechette ammo.

The way I picture SR's flechette rounds is they they have metal or cermaic
(maybe even plastic) slivers packed into the case, like shot only the
projectiles aren't spherical.

RL flechettes are small darts, with little tail fins to stabilize them.
For (experimental) rifle calibers they tend to contain only one dart,
while shotgun rounds have a handful of them, of much smaller dimensions.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Plastic donut, can of Spam.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 35
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 14:41:47 +0000
On 8 Feb 97 at 9:33, David Buehrer wrote:
> Paul J. Adam wrote:
> | All SR damage codes list the damage for a single round, ...
>
> Bzzzt. The damage code for the Ruger Thunderbolt Heavy
> Pistol in Lone Star is listed as 12S, and is allready
> adjusted for burst fire.
>
> Never assume anything in SR, and always read the fine print
Yeah - it _is_ listed as exception from standardnotification, as is
within the description of the Roomsweeper (flachette already
calculated).

Anything w/o special annotations _is_ base damage, so no, SMGs do _not_
have base damages of 3L!

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | *BLAM!* *BLAM!* |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| Stop! |
| \___ __/ | | *BLAM!* *BLAM!* |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | Police! |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | -- ??? |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 36
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 13:43:47 +0000
On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Allen Versfeld wrote:

> The Ares Viper slivergun, as we all know, does 9S, using flechette
> rounds, and fire mode: Question: In the description, it is described as alight
> pistol. LP's usually do 6L, so does this 9S include flechette AND
> burst?
Not that I'm aware of, it just includes the flechetee increase.

> Reason I ask is because one of my players has decided to modify the
> viper to use solid rounds, but this then gives him 12s from a
> handgun, with excellent concealability...
I wouldn't think it would be possible to convert it to use solid slugs -at
least not unless he was a very competent weapon smith. Instead he could
just buy the Savalette Guardian (though it only does 1 burst per action)
or if they are available in your game thr Ruger Thunderbolt from the LS
book which can do 2 bursts per action.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 37
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 11:17:24 -0700
Paul J. Adam wrote:
|
| In message <199702081633.JAA06567@******>, David Buehrer
| <dbuehrer@****.ORG> writes
| >Paul J. Adam wrote:
| >|
| >| All SR damage codes list the damage for a single round, ...
| >
| >Bzzzt. The damage code for the Ruger Thunderbolt Heavy
| >Pistol in Lone Star is listed as 12S, and is allready
| >adjusted for burst fire.
| >
| >Never assume anything in SR, and always read the fine print
| >
| >:)
|
| It would help if I had Lone Star... :)
|
| Seriously, though, does that mean the "base damage" for an Uzi III is
| 3L? I know it's not the greatest of weapons, but it doesn't seem _that_
| bad. Ditto MMGs and HMGs and miniguns...

No.. The Ruger Thunderbolt is one of the few exceptions.
The Uzi III is safe :)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 38
From: Zanphier <zanphier@*****.CSRA.NET>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 16:20:35 -0500
At 01:43 PM 2/9/97 +0000, you wrote:
>On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Allen Versfeld wrote:
>
>> The Ares Viper slivergun, as we all know, does 9S, using flechette
>> rounds, and fire mode: Question: In the description, it is described as
alight
>> pistol. LP's usually do 6L, so does this 9S include flechette AND
>> burst?
>Not that I'm aware of, it just includes the flechetee increase.

Alright from my using and having gmed ppl who are infatuated with the
Slivergun I have come to understand and use it as a Sniper's sidearm. When
is comes to a situation when the sniper can not use a rifle and has to get
up close and personal they prefer the Slivergun. A) It's flechette rounds
B)Built-in Silencer
C) You only need to get two shots out of the burst to kill the man. That is
why the damage code is so high and why it fires burst. It's not suppose to
be ripped and made to hold conventil rounds. It's an assassin pistol that is
its main use. Also makes a great hold-out when the drek hits the fan. But
most runners(and I fall prey to this) forget Proffesionalism gets the nuyen
not the volume of the bang that you make before you leave.
My view, my belief, challenge it if you wish..I will argue my view until I
see just reason to change it.
Aaron
Message no. 39
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:18:27 +0100
Zanphier said on 16:20/ 9 Feb 97...

> Alright from my using and having gmed ppl who are infatuated with the
> Slivergun I have come to understand and use it as a Sniper's sidearm. When
> is comes to a situation when the sniper can not use a rifle and has to get
> up close and personal they prefer the Slivergun.

Sounds reasonable so far, if you replace "sniper" by "assassin."
However
it's not smart to generalize too much -- not all assassins will prefer an
Ares Viper...

> A) It's flechette rounds

You can also load those into any other weapon.

> B)Built-in Silencer

Again, you can put a silencer on another gun as well. Although it could be
argued that the Viper's silencer is more effective than a retrofitted one
because it's designed to be part of the gun.

> C) You only need to get two shots out of the burst to kill the man. That is
> why the damage code is so high and why it fires burst.

How, under standard SRII rules, do you hit with two rounds out of a burst?
It's either all or nothing in my experience... You're right in that most
targets wouldn't survive a burst with a few successes behind it,
especially if you do an aimed shot as well.

> It's not suppose to be ripped and made to hold conventil rounds. It's an
> assassin pistol that is its main use.

Makes sense.

> Also makes a great hold-out when the drek hits the fan.

Better than any of the hold-out class pistols in SR...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Standing on the sideline watching the show.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 40
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ares Viper Slivergun
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:42:50 GMT
Various folks comment.
> >| All SR damage codes list the damage for a single round, ...
> >
For most weapons yes.

> >Bzzzt. The damage code for the Ruger Thunderbolt Heavy
> >Pistol in Lone Star is listed as 12S, and is allready
> >adjusted for burst fire.
> >
> >Never assume anything in SR, and always read the fine print
> >
> >:)
>
> It would help if I had Lone Star... :)
>
> Seriously, though, does that mean the "base damage" for an Uzi III is
> 3L? I know it's not the greatest of weapons, but it doesn't seem _that_
> bad. Ditto MMGs and HMGs and miniguns...
>
All the main rulebook and fof, ss etc lists are base damage codes,
for 1 round of regular solid slug, except those followed by (f) for
flechete which have had the stage up fro M to S for flechete figured
in.
Yes this means the 20D rotary autocannon does 32D on 12 round burst,
though at 36 recoil your chances of hitting what you aimed at are
well.........(well i can get 32 compensation but only just, by
pulling every toy i could find, and the nicer rules interpretations)

Yep HMG minguns on full atuo loaded with APDS kill 'anything' but i
mean even in ultra modern wargames rules (challenger) they will
happilly kill nearly any APC (American M3's have enough armour to
stand a chance and they have LOTS more than any SR vehicle)

Mark

Further Reading

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