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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Curtis Askren)
Subject: ARGH! Bad bindings?!
Date: Tue Mar 20 14:05:01 2001
Alright, I'm sad. I've had Matrix since the release,
and it's already coughing up pages after my first
read-through of it. I treat my boks like tiny gods (I
have first edition printings dating back past 1928,
-never- lost a page. grrrr) and I'm actually rather
dissapointed. Has anyone else experianced this with
Matrix? Does anyone have any suggestions what I should
do (cheap and extravigant)? Basicly I treat my boks as
collectors items... don't like bent pages, creased
covers, etc... Hell, my first edition D&D books still
haven't lost their pages... Yes, this is really
affecting me! ;-P

Thanks fer yer time,

Dr.Vyk

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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Robert Blackberg)
Subject: ARGH! Bad bindings?!
Date: Tue Mar 20 14:35:01 2001
> Alright, I'm sad. I've had Matrix since the release,
> and it's already coughing up pages after my first
> read-through of it. I treat my boks like tiny gods (I
> have first edition printings dating back past 1928,
> -never- lost a page. grrrr) and I'm actually rather
> dissapointed. Has anyone else experianced this with
> Matrix? Does anyone have any suggestions what I should
> do (cheap and extravigant)? Basicly I treat my boks as
> collectors items... don't like bent pages, creased
> covers, etc... Hell, my first edition D&D books still
> haven't lost their pages... Yes, this is really
> affecting me! ;-P

Ok, here's what I do...

Take the book to your local full-service copy center (I use Kinkos),
and tell them you want the spine cut from the book (ensuring they take
off as little as possible, then you want the book re-bound using their
spiral binding (Kinkos calls it "coil" binding). For extra strength,
you should have them add plastic covers to the front and back of the
book before they install the spriral binding (front cover is clear,
back cover is black). The whole process should cost about $5 to $7.

The added benefit is that the books will lay flat on a table, and you
can even fold them over to take up half the space. I've done this to
all my core SR3 rulebooks, and couldn't be happier with the results.

Robert
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Webb)
Subject: ARGH! Bad bindings?!
Date: Tue Mar 20 14:50:05 2001
-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-admin@*********.com
[mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.com]On Behalf Of Robert Blackberg
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 12:38 PM
To: shadowrn@*********.com
Subject: Re: ARGH! Bad bindings?!



> Alright, I'm sad. I've had Matrix since the release,
> and it's already coughing up pages after my first
> read-through of it. I treat my boks like tiny gods (I
> have first edition printings dating back past 1928,
> -never- lost a page. grrrr) and I'm actually rather
> dissapointed. Has anyone else experianced this with
> Matrix? Does anyone have any suggestions what I should
> do (cheap and extravigant)? Basicly I treat my boks as
> collectors items... don't like bent pages, creased
> covers, etc... Hell, my first edition D&D books still
> haven't lost their pages... Yes, this is really
> affecting me! ;-P

>>Ok, here's what I do...

Take the book to your local full-service copy center (I use Kinkos),
and tell them you want the spine cut from the book (ensuring they take
off as little as possible, then you want the book re-bound using their
spiral binding (Kinkos calls it "coil" binding). For extra strength,
you should have them add plastic covers to the front and back of the
book before they install the spriral binding (front cover is clear,
back cover is black). The whole process should cost about $5 to $7.

The added benefit is that the books will lay flat on a table, and you
can even fold them over to take up half the space. I've done this to
>>all my core SR3 rulebooks, and couldn't be happier with the results.

Bleah... I hate spiral binding. It generally takes me about a week for the
spiral to start to leave the holes, clogging up the book and making it
impossible to turn pages. I don't generally worry about it since I usually
have the books memorized in a little while anyway. My players can buy their
own books.

In cases where I couldn't do that, I would three whole punch it on my own,
and get a separate spiral binder to put the pages in. That isn't quite as
bad...
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: ARGH! Bad bindings?!
Date: Tue Mar 20 14:55:01 2001
--- Curtis Askren <vykar@*****.com> wrote:
> Alright, I'm sad. I've had Matrix since the release, and it's already
coughing up pages after my first read-through of it. I treat my boks
like tiny gods (I have first edition printings dating back past 1928,
-never- lost a page. grrrr) and I'm actually rather dissapointed. Has
anyone else experianced this with Matrix? Does anyone have any
suggestions what I should do (cheap and extravigant)? Basicly I treat
my boks as collectors items... don't like bent pages, creased covers,
etc... Hell, my first edition D&D books still haven't lost their
pages... Yes, this is really affecting me! ;-P

Your first read-through? Crap, man, take it back to the store, mail
it back to the company, do what you have to do to get another copy.
That doesn't sound like a normal 'FASA Binding' issue, that's just a
shoddy product. If a waiter brings you a sandwich with a toenail in it
you sure as hell don't eat the sandwich. Make a stink, it gets results.

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Robert Blackberg)
Subject: ARGH! Bad bindings?!
Date: Tue Mar 20 15:25:01 2001
From: "Michael Webb" <phage97@****.com>
> Bleah... I hate spiral binding. It generally takes me about a week
for the
> spiral to start to leave the holes, clogging up the book and making
it
> impossible to turn pages. I don't generally worry about it since I
usually
> have the books memorized in a little while anyway. My players can
buy their
> own books.

I don't know if it matters to you, but Kinkos uses a plastic spiral
that doesn't lose it's shape. I don't use regular, metal-spiral
notebooks for that very reason, but the plastic spiral tends to hold
up for me (three years of use and being carried around in my
backpack/carry bag). YMMV.

Robert
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Brother Justice)
Subject: ARGH! Bad bindings?!
Date: Tue Mar 20 15:55:01 2001
>From: BD <l3oondocker@*****.com>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Re: ARGH! Bad bindings?!
>Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:34:18 -0800 (PST)
>
> Your first read-through? Crap, man, take it back to the store, mail
>it back to the company, do what you have to do to get another copy.
>That doesn't sound like a normal 'FASA Binding' issue, that's just a
>shoddy product. If a waiter brings you a sandwich with a toenail in it
>you sure as hell don't eat the sandwich. Make a stink, it gets results.
>
>====>-Boondocker
>

Didn't get me results Boon. I had this happen on the first opening of both
copies of Matrix, on my second opening of Target Matrix, and my third
opening of the New Seattle Sourcebook. Six months of emails with FASA and
phone calls to the store I ordered them from, and no resolution to this day.
I just gave up and finally purchased new ones. I just don't open them
anymore. ;)

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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Curtis Askren)
Subject: ARGH! Bad bindings?!
Date: Tue Mar 20 16:30:05 2001
>
> I don't know if it matters to you, but Kinkos uses a
> plastic spiral
> that doesn't lose it's shape. I don't use regular,
> metal-spiral
> notebooks for that very reason, but the plastic
> spiral tends to hold
> up for me (three years of use and being carried
> around in my
> backpack/carry bag). YMMV.
>
> Robert


Well, it does seem like a good idea... but, I mean...
I'll be doing that to my SR books! *sighs* Hold me, I
donna think I can watch...

Oh, and on the topic of spiral binding... Kinkos does
seem to do a pretty darn good job. I still have an old
report from grade school that's held togethe rather
nicely. (years ago, folks, back when the world was new
and man thought the world still sat on the back of
four elephants riding on the shell of a turtle moving
through space)

Dr.Vyk

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Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George Metz)
Subject: ARGH! Bad bindings?!
Date: Wed Mar 21 02:45:01 2001
On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Curtis Askren wrote:

> Alright, I'm sad. I've had Matrix since the release,
> and it's already coughing up pages after my first
> read-through of it. I treat my boks like tiny gods (I

As do I - my gaming books, at any rate. I had the same thing happen to the
copy I picked up at GC2K. Was disappointed, to say the least.

> covers, etc... Hell, my first edition D&D books still
> haven't lost their pages... Yes, this is really
> affecting me! ;-P

Two Suggestions:

1) Kinko's. 'Nuff said, been covered by others, I absolutely love it.

2) Buy a second copy, and bag/vacuumseal/embalm/whatever it to preserve a
mint copy.

Personally, the spiral binding makes it easier to read, and I don't worry
ever about cracking the binding. =)

--
George Metz
Commercial Routing Engineer
wolfstar@*********.wox.org

"We know what deterrence was with 'mutually assured destruction' during
the Cold War. But what is deterrence in information warfare?" -- Brigadier
General Douglas Richardson, USAF, Commander - Space Warfare Center
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George Metz)
Subject: ARGH! Bad bindings?!
Date: Wed Mar 21 02:45:06 2001
On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Michael Webb wrote:

> Bleah... I hate spiral binding. It generally takes me about a week for the
> spiral to start to leave the holes, clogging up the book and making it
> impossible to turn pages. I don't generally worry about it since I usually
> have the books memorized in a little while anyway. My players can buy their
> own books.

As the man said, the spiral binding is plastic-coated. I haven't run into
the problem either, and I did mine some months back. The coils are fairly
tight, and stick out just far enough so that the bend to tie it off isn't
much interference at all.

I got this from some of the players in one of the tourney games I ran at
GC. BABS is much easier to handle with a spiral bind. =)

> In cases where I couldn't do that, I would three whole punch it on my own,
> and get a separate spiral binder to put the pages in. That isn't quite as
> bad...

A friend of mine does this with his Heavy Gear and some Palladium
books. Of course, he's a real stickler, so he gets larger binders and
large boxes of page protectors, then inserts the pages that way... Makes
it easy to make a photocopy of character sheets and critical charts.

--
George Metz
Commercial Routing Engineer
wolfstar@*********.wox.org

"We know what deterrence was with 'mutually assured destruction' during
the Cold War. But what is deterrence in information warfare?" -- Brigadier
General Douglas Richardson, USAF, Commander - Space Warfare Center
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: ARGH! Bad bindings?!
Date: Wed Mar 21 03:10:01 2001
> Didn't get me results Boon. I had this happen on the first opening of
both copies of Matrix, on my second opening of Target Matrix, and my
third opening of the New Seattle Sourcebook. Six months of emails with
FASA and phone calls to the store I ordered them from, and no
resolution to this day. I just gave up and finally purchased new ones.
I just don't open them anymore. ;)

<shrugs> Well, I guess that's that. Too bad, really. I've worked
in customer service for a while and you'd be surprised what repeated
and semi-polite bitching can get you... reduced rates on hotel rooms,
upgrades on airline seats, bonus airmiles, free products... obviously
it doesn't work all the time, but I'm sure it's worth a try most of the
time. I suggest this not as a constant practice, mind you (some things
aren't worth whining about), but as an alternative to settling for
less, which more and more people seem to do these days.

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Webb)
Subject: ARGH! Bad bindings?!
Date: Wed Mar 21 07:10:05 2001
On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Michael Webb wrote:

> Bleah... I hate spiral binding. It generally takes me about a week for the
> spiral to start to leave the holes, clogging up the book and making it
> impossible to turn pages. I don't generally worry about it since I usually
> have the books memorized in a little while anyway. My players can buy
their
> own books.

>As the man said, the spiral binding is plastic-coated. I haven't run into
>the problem either, and I did mine some months back. The coils are fairly
>tight, and stick out just far enough so that the bend to tie it off isn't
>much interference at all.

I suppose Kinko's does a better job of it then the people I used beforehand.
If it comes up again I may give them a shot. I avoided them before because
they were a bit more expensive, but if they do a better job of it, I guess
there is a reason why they are more expensive.
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Brother Justice)
Subject: ARGH! Bad bindings?!
Date: Wed Mar 21 09:15:01 2001
>From: BD <l3oondocker@*****.com>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Re: ARGH! Bad bindings?!
>Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:37:44 -0800 (PST)
>
> <shrugs> Well, I guess that's that. Too bad, really. I've worked
>in customer service for a while and you'd be surprised what repeated
>and semi-polite bitching can get you... reduced rates on hotel rooms,
>upgrades on airline seats, bonus airmiles, free products... obviously
>it doesn't work all the time, but I'm sure it's worth a try most of the
>time. I suggest this not as a constant practice, mind you (some things
>aren't worth whining about), but as an alternative to settling for
>less, which more and more people seem to do these days.
>
>====>-Boondocker

Settling for less? Sorry, six months of time spent complaining is quite
enough for me. The reinvestment of another $20 versus spending another six
months of my time and still get no resolution? Umm...no thanks. Trust me,
when FASA's involved, I like to complain. :) But there's a limit before it
just becomes pointless and fruitless. This had become so. In each case, it
was the same answer. "I'm sorry. There's nothing we can do. It must have
simply been a bad batch that had a few bad bindings."
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Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: ARGH! Bad bindings?!
Date: Wed Mar 21 20:00:00 2001
> Settling for less? Sorry, six months of time spent complaining is
quite enough for me. The reinvestment of another $20 versus spending
another six months of my time and still get no resolution? Umm...no
thanks. Trust me, when FASA's involved, I like to complain. :) But
there's a limit before it just becomes pointless and fruitless. This
had become so. In each case, it was the same answer. "I'm sorry.
There's nothing we can do. It must have simply been a bad batch that
had a few bad bindings."

Oh no, you've misunderstood what I meant! You obviously _didn't_
settle for less, you complained and didn't get results. You're right,
sometimes it doesn't work and you have to take your lumps or take away
your patronage. I was wagging my finger at people who just never
bother to put up a fuss yet moan about how bad service is. Please
don't take offence, eh? :)

====-Boondocker

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