Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Armor
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 11:09:56 -0800
On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Now, the original idea was to see what Adam used, since he didn't use this
> rule.

Ah! I see now ...
Generally, I just treat the armor as having a Barrier Rating
equal to its armor value. There are a couple of modifiers I use:
Soft Armor: Value x 2 (Soft armor doesn't shatter like hard plates)
Against Explosive Rounds: Value x 2 for the character (ie
against a Predator with explosive bullets the 5/3 jacket is going to stop
the round, but then it will also lose a point of armor)
Against Flechettes: Value x 2 for character and armor damage
(flechettes shouldn't damage armor that much)

Basically, after someone gets hit, I go the the Barrier rules and
determine damage to the "Barrier" (i.e. "armor") While I think it's
fine that armor stops bullets, it shouldn't easily stop a hail of
bullets and these rules reflect that. These rules are brief and simple.
Your mileage may vary.

> Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

========================================================================
Adam Getchell "Invincibility is in oneself,
acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu vulnerability in the opponent."
http://instruction.ucdavis.edu/html/getchell.html
Message no. 2
From: sl@****.hh.provi.de (Steffen Lassahn)
Subject: Armor
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 10:22:10 GMT
Hi there!

I have a question thet popped up yesterday in our gaming session about
armor. Why is it not possible to wear several layers of armor and to
add their armor values? OK, wearing 5 armored vests makes you
virtually unmoveable but in theory it should make you nearly
invulnarable against bullets fired at your breast.
We brought up a new rule: The upper layer of armor counts full, and
every layer of armor coming after that is halved in its values because
the kinetic energy of the impact hits through. But since neither of us
has ever even seen an armored vest or stuff like that we don't know if
that makes any sense. Comments?

Steffen


+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Steffen Lassahn sl@*****.de (work) |
| Tel. +49 (0)40 250 72 98 sl@****.hh.provi.de (home) |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| You are young only once. But if you do it right once is enough! |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 3
From: "Sambo" <polan881@******.edu>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 05:24:22 +0000
> Hi there!
>
> I have a question thet popped up yesterday in our gaming session about
> armor. Why is it not possible to wear several layers of armor and to
> add their armor values? OK, wearing 5 armored vests makes you
> virtually unmoveable but in theory it should make you nearly
> invulnarable against bullets fired at your breast.
> We brought up a new rule: The upper layer of armor counts full, and
> every layer of armor coming after that is halved in its values because
> the kinetic energy of the impact hits through. But since neither of us
> has ever even seen an armored vest or stuff like that we don't know if
> that makes any sense. Comments?
>
> Steffen

Page 94 of the Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Real Life deals with layered
armor. Just in case you don't have it:
Add rating of highest piece to one-half of next highest rated piece.
Rounded down of course! Only jacket or coat can be layered over
"clothing-style armor". I would have to say a coat or jacket
over "armor clothing" or over form fitting armor. But only the first
and second layer count. Any more than that and the character would
look pretty rediculous. And they probly wouldn't be able to get into
any decent place of business sporting all that ware.

Five layers would be rediculous. Today's body armor has come a long
way in just the past 5 years, but even the stuff that is designed to
stop a rifle round (say 30-06) weighs in at about 50-60lbs. That
ceramic stuff can get a bit weighty! This kind of falls into the
area of "player retention" - i.e. not giving every NPC a cannon or
Vindicator. Say "bye-bye" to the runners! Besides, if you need to,
as a GM you can always temporarily tweak some #'s if your players are
just rolling bad and you are rolling exceptionally well.

I played AD&D tonight and the DM actually critted my cleric about 8 times! He
fudged on only two or three. One was the very beginning and he
rolled an 82%, he just reversed the digits or that would have
basically ended the game we just started! Our time was fairly
restricted though. And while the party was killing sixteen Drow I only hit twice!
I was about ready to throw those dice across the room! Then the
thief rolls a fumble, then a 100%, on our custom tables that's reroll
3x! Luckily he wasn't standing next to any "friends"! I don't even
want to know how many rolls the DM fudged just to keep us alive on
the first day! This is just an example of not letting some stupid
piece of plastic ruin everyone's day! Well, now that I've blown off
some steam I feel much better, and hey, it's only 1 paragraph about
AD&D!

***Sparhawk***
Message no. 4
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 14:49:54 +0100
In message <31cd175b.1341268@***.98.9.7>, Steffen Lassahn
<sl@****.hh.provi.de> writes
>Hi there!
>I have a question thet popped up yesterday in our gaming session about
>armor. Why is it not possible to wear several layers of armor and to
>add their armor values?

Because personal body armour is not a simple slab. You typically use
three layers: a hard panel (such as a ceramic or metal insert) to
distort or shatter the projectile, then Kevlar plies to slow/stop it,
and a trauma shield to spread the impact.

Wearing two vests != twice the protection. If - say - a 7.62mm bullet
will go through one vest, it will go through two almost as easily.

SR models it quite well with the layered armour principle: you get the
best, plus half the next-best, and that's effectively it.

>OK, wearing 5 armored vests makes you
>virtually unmoveable but in theory it should make you nearly
>invulnarable against bullets fired at your breast.

Nope, sorry. An AP bullet will still go through. You need to build a
vest with a five-times-thicker layer in each place, not repeated thin
laminations.

>We brought up a new rule: The upper layer of armor counts full, and
>every layer of armor coming after that is halved in its values because
>the kinetic energy of the impact hits through. But since neither of us
>has ever even seen an armored vest or stuff like that we don't know if
>that makes any sense. Comments?

Don't forget the rule that every point of armour worn over your
Quickness reduces your combat pool. So, five armour vests (with plate
inserts, presumably) equal 20 points of Ballistic rating... so a
Quickness 6 character with a Combat Pool of 14 has no dice available.
And the encumbrance and weight of that lot is pretty bad: and as GM I'd
have someone wearing this lot making regular checks against heat
prostration.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 5
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 17:34:34 +0100
Steffen Lassahn said on 10:22/23 Jun 96...

> We brought up a new rule: The upper layer of armor counts full, and
> every layer of armor coming after that is halved in its values because
> the kinetic energy of the impact hits through. But since neither of us
> has ever even seen an armored vest or stuff like that we don't know if
> that makes any sense. Comments?

That's nearly exactly the rule that FASA came up with in the Neo-A Guide
to Real Life (NAGRL), except that that rule only allows layering of two
armors: take the highest rating, and add one-half (round down) the
next-highest to it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Nothing's fair.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 6
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 08:35:13 PDT
> Hi there!
>
> I have a question thet popped up yesterday in our gaming session about
> armor. Why is it not possible to wear several layers of armor and to
> add their armor values? OK, wearing 5 armored vests makes you
> virtually unmoveable but in theory it should make you nearly
> invulnarable against bullets fired at your breast.
> We brought up a new rule: The upper layer of armor counts full, and
> every layer of armor coming after that is halved in its values because
> the kinetic energy of the impact hits through. But since neither of us
> has ever even seen an armored vest or stuff like that we don't know if
> that makes any sense. Comments?
>
> Steffen
>

I think that is the way the NAGRL tells yoiu to do it.

I can't find my copy at the moment, anyone want to check?
Message no. 7
From: "Robert J. Waters" <rjwate01@*****.louisville.edu>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 14:30:47 -0500 (EDT)
> Five layers would be rediculous. Today's body armor has come a long
> way in just the past 5 years, but even the stuff that is designed to
> stop a rifle round (say 30-06) weighs in at about 50-60lbs. That
> ceramic stuff can get a bit weighty! This kind of falls into the
> area of "player retention" - i.e. not giving every NPC a cannon or
> Vindicator. Say "bye-bye" to the runners! Besides, if you need to,
> as a GM you can always temporarily tweak some #'s if your players are
> just rolling bad and you are rolling exceptionally well.

Thing is the latest in armor research is spider silk armor. They are working
synthetically producing spider silk which is better at absorbing and
distributing kinetic energy then current materials used in personal armor.
One of the shows on the Discovery channel had something about it (can't
remember which show).

Luc AKA BobW
Message no. 8
From: "Spike" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 10:55:20 +0100 (BST)
|
|Hi there!
|
|I have a question thet popped up yesterday in our gaming session about
|armor. Why is it not possible to wear several layers of armor and to
|add their armor values? OK, wearing 5 armored vests makes you
|virtually unmoveable but in theory it should make you nearly
|invulnarable against bullets fired at your breast.

It's pretty obvious if you think about it.
GAME BALANCE!!!!
What you are thinking of is totally munchkinous and unplayable.
Also, don't forget the movement penalty when wearing a high armour value.
What is it now? For every point above your quickness, reduce movement by 1?

Also, don't forget that anything the shadowrunners can cobble together, the
corps can outdo.

You want 15 armour? Be prepared to face off corp goons in 20.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk | |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:-| "THAT WOULD BE AN ECCLESIASTICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!!|
|Comp Sci & something | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: Chowder <jhm1247@*.cc.utah.edu>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 02:13:25 -0600 (MDT)
On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Steffen Lassahn wrote:

> Hi there!
>
> I have a question thet popped up yesterday in our gaming session about
> armor. Why is it not possible to wear several layers of armor and to
> add their armor values? OK, wearing 5 armored vests makes you
> virtually unmoveable but in theory it should make you nearly
> invulnarable against bullets fired at your breast.
> We brought up a new rule: The upper layer of armor counts full, and
> every layer of armor coming after that is halved in its values because
> the kinetic energy of the impact hits through. But since neither of us
> has ever even seen an armored vest or stuff like that we don't know if
> that makes any sense. Comments?

Well, mainly because wearing more than two layers of armor is ludicrously
bulky. My rule is that a maximum of two layers of armor can be used, and you
obtain the combined ballistic rating by taking the smaller of the two
ballistic ratings and dividing it in half, rounding down, and adding it to
the larger ballistic rating. Likewise with the combined Impact rating.

Chowder <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu> OR <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 10
From: "Robert J. Waters" <rjwate01@*****.louisville.edu>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 18:46:24 -0500 (EDT)
I got an idea for people insisting on trying to wear more than 2 layers of
armor. The hardest armor's full value is added to half the value of
subsequent layers, BUT if wearing more than 2 layers then use full armor value
of lesser layers for the purpose of calculating combat pool penalty and if a
negative combat pool results then people shooting at the poor schmuck get
those negative dice as a bonus to their firearm skill.

--
Luc AKA BobW

EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME!
BUT THE CORPSE STILL HAS THE FLOOR!
--Kevin Spacey as Lloyd in The Ref (1994)
Message no. 11
From: Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Armor
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:48:34 -0500
Hi guys,
This is a rule a friend and I came up with for wear and tear in
armor. I'd like some input about it.
Armor has to go through a lot and I think it's unrealistic to say
that its rating stays the same no matter what it's gone through. So how
about (this may sound stupid but) an armor condition monitor! It has as
many boxes equal to its ballistic and impact ratings added. (8 boxes for
an armor jacket because it's 5/3 or 6 boxes for a lined coat because it's
4/2) Now every time the character takes physical (not stun) damage from a
spell with an elemental effect, a gun, an edged weapon, etc. the armor
will take damage. When the armor exceeds the condition monitor it loses
one point from both ballistic and impact armor and it's total number of
boxes in the condition monitor goes down until you go up to an
"armorsmith" to get it mended.
So what do you guys think of that rule?
Dust
Message no. 12
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:13:44 -0500
Dust wrote:

> Hi guys,
> This is a rule a friend and I came up with for wear and tear in
> armor. I'd like some input about it.
> Armor has to go through a lot and I think it's unrealistic to say
> that its rating stays the same no matter what it's gone through. So how
> about (this may sound stupid but) an armor condition monitor! It has as
> many boxes equal to its ballistic and impact ratings added. (8 boxes for
> an armor jacket because it's 5/3 or 6 boxes for a lined coat because it's
> 4/2) Now every time the character takes physical (not stun) damage from a
> spell with an elemental effect, a gun, an edged weapon, etc. the armor
> will take damage. When the armor exceeds the condition monitor it loses
> one point from both ballistic and impact armor and it's total number of
> boxes in the condition monitor goes down until you go up to an
> "armorsmith" to get it mended.
> So what do you guys think of that rule?
> Dust

Actually, I feel the rules in Fields of Fire cover armor degredation
pretty well without any additional bookeeping. You might want to take a
look at them. They are simple and will take less time than the above
method.

Keep up the suggestions, though. We appreciate them. :)

Justin :)
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 13
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:09:28 -0800
On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Dust wrote:

> Hi guys,
> This is a rule a friend and I came up with for wear and tear in
> armor. I'd like some input about it.
> Armor has to go through a lot and I think it's unrealistic to say
> that its rating stays the same no matter what it's gone through. So how
> about (this may sound stupid but) an armor condition monitor! It has as
> many boxes equal to its ballistic and impact ratings added. (8 boxes for
> an armor jacket because it's 5/3 or 6 boxes for a lined coat because it's
> 4/2) Now every time the character takes physical (not stun) damage from a
> spell with an elemental effect, a gun, an edged weapon, etc. the armor
> will take damage. When the armor exceeds the condition monitor it loses
> one point from both ballistic and impact armor and it's total number of
> boxes in the condition monitor goes down until you go up to an
> "armorsmith" to get it mended.
> So what do you guys think of that rule?
> Dust
>

Why not just use the Armor Damage rules provided in FoF?

~Tim
Message no. 14
From: Airk <jfrank@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:51:47 -0700
Dust wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
> This is a rule a friend and I came up with for wear and tear in
> armor. I'd like some input about it.
> Armor has to go through a lot and I think it's unrealistic to say
> that its rating stays the same no matter what it's gone through. So how
> about (this may sound stupid but) an armor condition monitor!

I like it ;)
I'm not too sure about the system you worked out though. I'd need to
playtest it but thanks for bringing that to my attention.
--
Airk
comic-collector-shadowrun-freak-extraordinaire
Message no. 15
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:39:57 EST
On Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:48:34 -0500 Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
writes:
<snip>
> So what do you guys think of that rule?
> Dust
>
Use the rules in Fields of Fire, they're simpler. In an extrapolation,
why not give all items a condition monitor, like vehicles and cyberdecks?
Because it would get too complicated, the same reason why many GMs use
Threat Ratings, they're easier to manage than multiple dice pools.

Canthros
--
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 16
From: Hannes Lundholm <mt28185@******.SWIPNET.SE>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:51:20 +0100
> Use the rules in Fields of Fire, they're simpler. In an extrapolation,
> why not give all items a condition monitor, like vehicles and cyberdecks?
> Because it would get too complicated, the same reason why many GMs use
> Threat Ratings, they're easier to manage than multiple dice pools.

Ehrm... Vehicles and cyberdecks HAS condition monitors... Really...


-----------------------------------------------------
Sent By That Guy Called Hannes
at mt28185@******.swipnet.se
-----------------------------------------------------
WARNING:
The Chance Of Forgetting What
To Write In This Letter Is Directly
Proportional To... To... Uhh....
-----------------------------------------------------
Message no. 17
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 19:22:07 EST
On Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:51:20 +0100 Hannes Lundholm
<mt28185@******.SWIPNET.SE> writes:
>> Use the rules in Fields of Fire, they're simpler. In an
>extrapolation,
>> why not give all items a condition monitor, like vehicles and
>cyberdecks?
>> Because it would get too complicated, the same reason why many GMs
>use
>> Threat Ratings, they're easier to manage than multiple dice pools.
>
>Ehrm... Vehicles and cyberdecks HAS condition monitors... Really...
>
Actually, I was using vehicles and cyberdecks as comparison...when I said
"all items" I meant things like guns, melee weapons, trid sets,
et-fraggin'-cetera:)

Canthros
--
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:52:48 +0100
Dust said on 11:48/14 Jan 97...

> Armor has to go through a lot and I think it's unrealistic to say
> that its rating stays the same no matter what it's gone through. So how
> about (this may sound stupid but) an armor condition monitor! It has as
> many boxes equal to its ballistic and impact ratings added. (8 boxes for
> an armor jacket because it's 5/3 or 6 boxes for a lined coat because it's
> 4/2) Now every time the character takes physical (not stun) damage from a
> spell with an elemental effect, a gun, an edged weapon, etc. the armor
> will take damage. When the armor exceeds the condition monitor it loses
> one point from both ballistic and impact armor and it's total number of
> boxes in the condition monitor goes down

There are armor degradation rules in Fields of Fire (which I understand you
don't own), but I don't like them much. Your idea seems okay, but it
requires quite a lot of bookkeeping, with the condition monitors and all.
However, if you're willing to keep track of that, I say go with it.

There are some alternatives, but I haven't found one yet that I really
like (it has to be both quick to use and independent of the wound taken by
the character, which the FoF rules are not). So far I've been thinking
about an adaptation of the barrier degradation rules, but they have the
drawback that it goes a little too fast -- shoot an assault rifle with
explosive rounds at an armor jacket, and half the jacket is gone...

> until you go up to an "armorsmith" to get it mended.

Or you could throw the thing in the trash can and pick up a new one for a
couple hundred nuyen...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Maybe if I get a really cool suit, that'll help...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 19
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Armor
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:47:53 -0700
Here's an idea:

If the power of a physical attack is less than the armor rating of
the target, the damage of the attack becomes stun.

This addresses two issues: light rounds getting past heavy armor, and
pistols affecting tanks (if a round from a 9M pistol hits a Banshee
(12 armor) the Banshee would take stun damage, and since vehicles
don't have stun damage tracks... :)

I realize that it has some reality problems (like the fact that it
doesn't take into account the fact that an armored vest only provides
partial body cover) but from a game mechanics standpoint it works
great (so far :)

And it would still be possible for a Sam with a Predator to damage a
Banshee if he was a good enough shot to stage the damage past Deadly
Stun into physical damage.

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes.
Art is knowing which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 20
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:25:07 -0500
On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, David Buehrer wrote:

> Here's an idea:
>
> If the power of a physical attack is less than the armor rating of
> the target, the damage of the attack becomes stun.
>
> This addresses two issues: light rounds getting past heavy armor, and
> pistols affecting tanks (if a round from a 9M pistol hits a Banshee
> (12 armor) the Banshee would take stun damage, and since vehicles
> don't have stun damage tracks... :)
>
> I realize that it has some reality problems (like the fact that it
> doesn't take into account the fact that an armored vest only provides
> partial body cover) but from a game mechanics standpoint it works
> great (so far :)
>
> And it would still be possible for a Sam with a Predator to damage a
> Banshee if he was a good enough shot to stage the damage past Deadly
> Stun into physical damage.
That makes sense, although it would work well if players were allowed
to make called shots to bypass body armor. Also, this would make AP rounds
much more useful.
The biggest problem I see is that heavily armored characters could become
effectively immune to small arms fire. Armor degradation rules, however,
could solve this problem.
Message no. 21
From: Richard Gaywood <richard.gaywood@**************.OXFORD.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:40:08 +0000
>
> This addresses two issues: light rounds getting past heavy armor, and
> pistols affecting tanks (if a round from a 9M pistol hits a Banshee
> (12 armor) the Banshee would take stun damage, and since vehicles
> don't have stun damage tracks... :)

The Banshee's armour is hardened, so it doesn't do any damage anyway. And
don't forget to drop damage level by one, too.

Use Blackjack's armour bypass rules - apply a TN penalty to the firer
equal to the number of points of armour they wish to bypass. If they want
to shoot past an armoured jacket, give them +5; if they want to shoot
a sec long coat, they can tak +2 TN and only 2 points off their gun power,
and so on. This makes heavily armoured character vulnerable to people with
good skill.

Quick 'n' dirty, but also fast 'n' simple <g>.

-=R=- aka Glyndwr
Message no. 22
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 14:37:51 +0500
On 4 Dec 97 at 7:47, David Buehrer wrote:

> If the power of a physical attack is less than the armor rating of
> the target, the damage of the attack becomes stun.
>
> This addresses two issues: light rounds getting past heavy armor,
> and pistols affecting tanks (if a round from a 9M pistol hits a
> Banshee (12 armor) the Banshee would take stun damage, and since
> vehicles don't have stun damage tracks... :)

I like this to. It is somewhat realistic too, because from what I
hear from my cop buddy, when he got hit his Kevlar vest stopped it,
but he was bruised for a week.

--
===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net====
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
=================================================================
2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 23
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:16:46 -0500
On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Richard Gaywood wrote:
> Use Blackjack's armour bypass rules - apply a TN penalty to the firer
> equal to the number of points of armour they wish to bypass. If they want
> to shoot past an armoured jacket, give them +5; if they want to shoot
> a sec long coat, they can tak +2 TN and only 2 points off their gun power,
> and so on. This makes heavily armoured character vulnerable to people with
> good skill.
>
> Quick 'n' dirty, but also fast 'n' simple <g>.
But it does not take into account the size of the armor. A long coat,
while providing less protection than an armored jacket, covers a much
larger area. Thus, it should be more difficult to bypass with a called
shot.
Message no. 24
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 14:52:45 -0700
Drekhead wrote:
/
/ On 4 Dec 97 at 7:47, David Buehrer wrote:
/
/ > If the power of a physical attack is less than the armor rating of
/ > the target, the damage of the attack becomes stun.
/ >
/ > This addresses two issues: light rounds getting past heavy armor,
/ > and pistols affecting tanks (if a round from a 9M pistol hits a
/ > Banshee (12 armor) the Banshee would take stun damage, and since
/ > vehicles don't have stun damage tracks... :)
/
/ I like this to. It is somewhat realistic too, because from what I
/ hear from my cop buddy, when he got hit his Kevlar vest stopped it,
/ but he was bruised for a week.

Yep. That was another reason I thought of it.

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes.
Art is knowing which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 25
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:22:13 +0100
David Buehrer said on 7:47/ 4 Dec 97...

> If the power of a physical attack is less than the armor rating of
> the target, the damage of the attack becomes stun.

This sounds good, but look a bit deeper: hardly any attack in SR has a
Power that's less than the armor rating that defends against it...

Apart from that, it sounds like a good enough rule to me.

> And it would still be possible for a Sam with a Predator to damage a
> Banshee if he was a good enough shot to stage the damage past Deadly
> Stun into physical damage.

One problem: vehicles don't _have_ Stun tracks, so any damage they take is
Physical.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - 5044116
N.B. Please do not read the lyrics while listening to the recordings.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 26
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:37:23 -0700
Gurth wrote:
/
/ David Buehrer said on 7:47/ 4 Dec 97...
/
/ > If the power of a physical attack is less than the armor rating of
/ > the target, the damage of the attack becomes stun.
/
/ This sounds good, but look a bit deeper: hardly any attack in SR has a
/ Power that's less than the armor rating that defends against it...

True :)

/ > And it would still be possible for a Sam with a Predator to damage a
/ > Banshee if he was a good enough shot to stage the damage past Deadly
/ > Stun into physical damage.
/
/ One problem: vehicles don't _have_ Stun tracks, so any damage they take is
/ Physical.

My interpretation would be that since vehicles don't have Stun
tracks, stun damage doesn't affect them at all. If there's a rule
that says otherwise please point me to it.

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes.
Art is knowing which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 27
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 12:32:12 +0100
David Buehrer said on 9:37/ 5 Dec 97...

> / One problem: vehicles don't _have_ Stun tracks, so any damage they take is
> / Physical.
>
> My interpretation would be that since vehicles don't have Stun
> tracks, stun damage doesn't affect them at all. If there's a rule
> that says otherwise please point me to it.

I don't think there is, but there also isn't a rule that says they _don't_
take damage from Stun weapons. Think about it: hitting a motorcycle, or
better yet, one of those low-Body drones, with a baseball bat won't damage
it, if you rule that vehicles don't take damage from Stun weapons.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - 5044116
N.B. Please do not read the lyrics while listening to the recordings.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 28
From: "Simon.M" <Simon.M@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 13:23:00 -0000
>Think about it: hitting a motorcycle, or
>better yet, one of those low-Body drones, with a baseball bat >won't damage
>it, if you rule that vehicles don't take damage from Stun >weapons.

A baceball bat does stun?????????

Darn, when i got hit i was sure i was more than stunned!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
"Not everything in black and white makes sense."
-Advert.
Message no. 29
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 11:13:35 -0700
Simon.M wrote:
/
/ >Think about it: hitting a motorcycle, or
/ >better yet, one of those low-Body drones, with a baseball bat >won't damage
/ >it, if you rule that vehicles don't take damage from Stun >weapons.
/
/ A baceball bat does stun?????????
/
/ Darn, when i got hit i was sure i was more than stunned!

I agree with Simon. A better example would be a person using their
fist (stun damage). And that shouldn't affect a vehicle, even a low
body drone (though it might suffer from knockdown). Ditto for stun
battons and tasers (and the like). Stun is temporary damage, and I
don't see how you can stun a vehicle. And since stun does not equal
physical damage it shouldn't physically damage a vehicle/object.

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes.
Art is knowing which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 30
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 07:16:53 +0000
On 6 Dec 97 at 11:13, David Buehrer wrote:

> I agree with Simon. A better example would be a person using their
> fist (stun damage). And that shouldn't affect a vehicle, even a low
> body drone (though it might suffer from knockdown). Ditto for stun
> battons and tasers (and the like).

Sorry, but if you fire a taser at a drone, you are very likely to blow its
electronic all the way to mars.

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 31
From: Geoff <geoffwa@***********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:27:47 +1100
>> I agree with Simon. A better example would be a person using their
>> fist (stun damage). And that shouldn't affect a vehicle, even a low
>> body drone (though it might suffer from knockdown). Ditto for stun
>> battons and tasers (and the like).

Yeah but if the drone's small enough (Rigger 2) then you should be able to
pick it up and throw it.

Geoff

'What happens if you're on a train traveling at the speed of light and you
run forward?'
"Most people will rather die than think." - Wolfgang Langewiesche
geoffwa@***********.com.au
Message no. 32
From: Deosyne <deosyne@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:48:09 -0500
----------
> From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Armor
> Date: Thursday, December 04, 1997 12:25 PM
>
> On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, David Buehrer wrote:
>
> > Here's an idea:
> >
> > If the power of a physical attack is less than the armor rating of
> > the target, the damage of the attack becomes stun.
> >
> > This addresses two issues: light rounds getting past heavy armor, and
> > pistols affecting tanks (if a round from a 9M pistol hits a Banshee
> > (12 armor) the Banshee would take stun damage, and since vehicles
> > don't have stun damage tracks... :)
> >

Pistols affecting tanks? I guess a can of spray paint would be required to
repair the damage. :)

> > I realize that it has some reality problems (like the fact that it
> > doesn't take into account the fact that an armored vest only provides
> > partial body cover) but from a game mechanics standpoint it works
> > great (so far :)
> >

It works well enough because the armor is an increase to the average
protection of the person, but I prefer using a location hit table and bump
armor ratings up a point. 'Course my runs can get messy (the remainder of
your left knee is splattered across the doorway you just stormed through.
Roll again.) :)

> > And it would still be possible for a Sam with a Predator to damage a
> > Banshee if he was a good enough shot to stage the damage past Deadly
> > Stun into physical damage.

Shooting what?!? Maybe laying on his back, shooting into the intakes. But
the theory's sound on lesser vehicles. Shooting a car with a .38 doesn't
usually do a hell of a lot, but occasionally something pretty important
(besides the driver) gets hit.

> That makes sense, although it would work well if players were allowed
> to make called shots to bypass body armor. Also, this would make AP
rounds
> much more useful.

Called shots should be allowed. That how most kills are scored in a war;
the other shots fired make noise and wound friendlies.

> The biggest problem I see is that heavily armored characters could become
> effectively immune to small arms fire. Armor degradation rules, however,
> could solve this problem.

Well, if some dumbass with a .22 wants to flatten a truckload of ammo
against someone's mil-spec suit, no loss to the gene pool. But armor
degradation would play a big part, especially when a cocky player straps on
that Mondo Crusher Suit [TM] that can take a Dragon missile. When it does,
he's unscratched in his underwear and no body hair. :)

Shawn, apparently playing too much Quake in anticipation of Q2.
Message no. 33
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:03:00 +0100
Simon.M said on 13:23/ 6 Dec 97...

> >Think about it: hitting a motorcycle, or
> >better yet, one of those low-Body drones, with a baseball bat >won't damage
> >it, if you rule that vehicles don't take damage from Stun >weapons.
>
> A baceball bat does stun?????????

It would count as a club in SR, so it does Stun damage.

> Darn, when i got hit i was sure i was more than stunned!

SR isn't RL; blunt weapons do Stun damage even though they can break bones
and cause other "real" wounds IRL.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - 5044116
N.B. Please do not read the lyrics while listening to the recordings.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 34
From: James Paul Morgan <jpmorgan@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Armor
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:25:03 -0700
On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Simon.M wrote:

> A baceball bat does stun?????????
>
> Darn, when i got hit i was sure i was more than stunned!
>

Actually, using the optional rule from Fields of Fire, you can use any
"stun" weapon to do physical damage. It just ups your target number.

You're aiming for more vital parts.


Using this rule, you could damage a low-body drone with a bat, but you
wouldn't be able to really hurt a full-sized vehicle, particularly one
with armor, unless both you and the bat were REALLY strong.


See ya around the Mulberry bush.

--James

:)
Message no. 35
From: Dodge <d7582@*****.COM>
Subject: armor
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:23:44 -0800
How much ballistic armor dose a pillow give?
Message no. 36
From: Jared Leisner <leisnj48@****.CIS.UWOSH.EDU>
Subject: Re: armor
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:46:35 -0600
>How much ballistic armor dose a pillow give?

None, it's a silencer?
Message no. 37
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: armor
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 14:48:02 EST
In a message dated 99-02-07 12:33:08 EST, you write:

> How much ballistic armor dose a pillow give?
>

None, I would think. In fact, the only time i ever hear of a pillow being
used is as sort of an improptu silencer. And given the fact that I se it
happen in movies and TV, I am inclined not to believe it does even a good job
at that.

Pysics type folk? Gun folk? WOULD a pillow be of any use as a sort of one
shot silencer??
Message no. 38
From: "Hatchetman, GUV" <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: armor
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:04:07 -0800
A very, very ineffective one. It works better for revolvers (kinda) if it's
a big pillow and can cover the whole gun so noise doesn't escape from the
cylinder gap, but automatics, it's not that great. Unless you get a lot of
pillows, but eventually it would start to slow down the bullet. Maybe a -1
or _maybe_ a -2 on the perception test.

Thomas H. - Hatchetman, GUV.

----------
> From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: armor
> Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 11:48 AM
>
> In a message dated 99-02-07 12:33:08 EST, you write:
>
> > How much ballistic armor dose a pillow give?
> >
>
> None, I would think. In fact, the only time i ever hear of a pillow
being
> used is as sort of an improptu silencer. And given the fact that I se it
> happen in movies and TV, I am inclined not to believe it does even a good
job
> at that.
>
> Pysics type folk? Gun folk? WOULD a pillow be of any use as a sort of
one
> shot silencer??
Message no. 39
From: "Hatchetman, GUV" <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: armor
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:05:46 -0800
None unless you were pillowed up like the Stay Puf't marshmallow man.
Enough pillows that you couldn't move. (This is what starts arguments in my
group about big things or really fat people being more resistant to
weapons)

Thomas H. - Hatchetman, GUV.

----------
> From: Dodge <d7582@*****.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: armor
> Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 12:23 PM
>
> How much ballistic armor dose a pillow give?
Message no. 40
From: Keith Hedger <HEDGEEK@***.COM>
Subject: Re: armor
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 01:01:52 EST
And the question was asked about pillows and their armor value:

None, I would think. In fact, the only time i ever hear of a pillow being
used is as sort of an improptu silencer. And given the fact that I se it
happen in movies and TV, I am inclined not to believe it does even a good job
at that.

Pysics type folk? Gun folk? WOULD a pillow be of any use as a sort of one
shot silencer??


My answer on armor: 0, none, nil, nada

My answer on the silencer:
Maybe, for a single shot from a small caliber (light pistol or less).
Message no. 41
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: armor
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:09:52 +1000
Keith Hedger writes:
> And the question was asked about pillows and their armor value:
>
> None, I would think. In fact, the only time i ever hear of a pillow being
> used is as sort of an improptu silencer. And given the fact that I se it
> happen in movies and TV, I am inclined not to believe it does
> even a good job
> at that.

Okay, that covers Ballistic armour, but what about Impact?

I'd have to give a pillow at least one point of Impact armour, possibly as
much as 3, depending on the quality of the pillow.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 42
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: armor
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:30:55 +0100
According to Micheal Feeney, at 14:48 on 7 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> Pysics type folk? Gun folk? WOULD a pillow be of any use as a sort of one
> shot silencer??

Not sure. An empty plastic bottle (say, a 1 l coke bottle) will work, but
I have a feeling a pillow won't do a very good job at being a sound
suppresser. The reason I say this is because a suppresser works by
allowing the escaping muzzle gases to expand to a limited degree -- the
noise a gunshot makes is because the gases "locked up" in the barrel can
suddenly expand; by using a "chamber" in front of the barrel (like the
empty coke bottle), they can expand a bit, but not too much, and then flow
away into the atmosphere with a lot less noise. I have trouble seeing a
pillow perform this function...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If it's no use pretending, then I don't want to know.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 43
From: Andy Mathews <AndMat3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: armor
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:52:26 EST
In a message dated 2/7/99 12:45:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
leisnj48@****.CIS.UWOSH.EDU writes:

> >How much ballistic armor dose a pillow give?

please, tell me that you did not shoot Santa Clause.

andy
Message no. 44
From: ArcLight <arclight@**************.COM>
Subject: Re: armor
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:21:59 +0100
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion On Behalf Of Gurth
> Sent: Monday, February 08, 1999 11:31 AM
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: armor
>
>
> According to Micheal Feeney, at 14:48 on 7 Feb 99, the word on
> the street was...
>
> > Pysics type folk? Gun folk? WOULD a pillow be of any use as
> a sort of one
> > shot silencer??
>
> Not sure. An empty plastic bottle (say, a 1 l coke bottle) will work, but
> I have a feeling a pillow won't do a very good job at being a sound
> suppresser. The reason I say this is because a suppresser works by
> allowing the escaping muzzle gases to expand to a limited degree -- the
> noise a gunshot makes is because the gases "locked up" in the barrel can
> suddenly expand; by using a "chamber" in front of the barrel (like the
> empty coke bottle), they can expand a bit, but not too much, and
> then flow
> away into the atmosphere with a lot less noise. I have trouble seeing a
> pillow perform this function...

As we (actually you...) speak about silencers: does anybody use
some kinda Houserule that you have to shoot with sub-sonic ammunition
for effectively use a silencer?
Normal ammo has a characteristic crack when the projectile gets
over 300 m/sec...

ArcLight
BABY #361
ICQ 14322211
NO ONE IS SAFE FROM A MICROWAVE
Message no. 45
From: Jester <jester@**********.NL>
Subject: Re: armor
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:17:59 +0100
At 13:05, 7 Feb 99, Jester was told by Hatchetman, GUV:

> None unless you were pillowed up like the Stay Puf't marshmallow man.
> Enough pillows that you couldn't move. (This is what starts arguments in
> my group about big things or really fat people being more resistant to
> weapons)
>
Hey Gurth, I really LIKE this idea, above:) What about you?


--
When you're frozen solid, you really don't think much about sex anymore.
--Buck Bundy--
Jester
<jester@**********.nl>

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GS d s: a22? c- U? P? L? E? W N- o? K- w+ O--- M? V? PS PE-
Y PGP- t+ 5+++ X+ R+>++ tv++ b+++ DI? D- G e>+ h! r++ y+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 46
From: A Halliwell u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk
Subject: armor
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:28:56 +0000 (GMT)
And verily, did Dodge hastily scribble thusly...
|
|How much ballistic armor dose a pillow give?
|
|
|

None? If your GM is feeling generous... One?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 47
From: A Halliwell u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk
Subject: armor
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:35:40 +0000 (GMT)
And verily, did Dodge hastily scribble thusly...
|
|How much ballistic armor does a pillow give?
|
|
|

We heard you the first 3 times!
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 48
From: Slipspeed atreloar@*********.com
Subject: armor
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 03:44:48 +1000
>|How much ballistic armor dose a pillow give?
>
>None? If your GM is feeling generous... One?


It'd want to be a VERY generous day on the part of a GM. If bullets can
(note can, not will, for all you gun nuts. :) ) punch through kevlar, a few
feathers isn't going to do much. And it'd want to be one hell of a pillow.

If he meant impact armour, then I suppose one is fair, perhaps even two or
three, depending on the GM. Assuming the pillow was what was aimed at.

Hmm, make that one, full stop. I remember in high school, during a physics
class on force. My physics teacher (black belt third dan in tai kwon do)
called in a student teacher, and told him to hold a phone book against his
chest. He then punched the phone book. The teacher came to school the next
day with a bruise so big and purple it wasn't funny. Depending on the
pillow, it might work worse or better than the phone book. :)

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology. So
there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 49
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: armor
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:30:45 -0600
On Sun, 07 Feb 1999 12:31:28 -0800 Dodge <d7582@*****.com> writes:
>How much ballistic armor does a pillow give?

None. Unless you are talking about many pillows (and I do mean *MANY*).

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 50
From: Dodge d7582@*****.com
Subject: armor
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 12:23:44 -0800
How much ballistic armor dose a pillow give?
Message no. 51
From: Dodge d7582@*****.com
Subject: armor
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 12:31:28 -0800
How much ballistic armor does a pillow give?
Message no. 52
From: Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject: armor
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:47:49 -0500
Slipspeed wrote:
> >|How much ballistic armor dose a pillow give?
[snip]
> If he meant impact armour, then I suppose one is fair, perhaps even two or
> three, depending on the GM. Assuming the pillow was what was aimed at.
>
> Hmm, make that one, full stop. I remember in high school, during a
> physics
> class on force. My physics teacher (black belt third dan in tai kwon do)
> called in a student teacher, and told him to hold a phone book against his
> chest. He then punched the phone book. The teacher came to school the
> next
> day with a bruise so big and purple it wasn't funny. Depending on the
> pillow, it might work worse or better than the phone book. :)
>
The phonebook is reasonably solid and thus will transmit the force of
the blow well (although it *will* distribute the force over a larger
area). The pillow will compress a lot and will thus absorb a quantity
of the energy. The pillow would probably give an impact of 1 or 2,
depending on the pillow and the weapon used (sword? impact=0).

James Ojaste
Message no. 53
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: armor
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:34:15 +0100
Hmm... This bounced back to me from the old list. I hope Jester's subbed
to this list by now.


According to Jester, at 20:17 on 8 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> > None unless you were pillowed up like the Stay Puf't marshmallow man.
> > Enough pillows that you couldn't move. (This is what starts arguments in
> > my group about big things or really fat people being more resistant to
> > weapons)
> >
> Hey Gurth, I really LIKE this idea, above:) What about you?

You want Ron to have extra armor because he's so fat? Erm... Well... No :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If it's no use pretending, then I don't want to know.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 54
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: armor
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:00:07 -0600
> > None unless you were pillowed up like the Stay Puf't marshmallow man.
> > Enough pillows that you couldn't move. (This is what starts arguments
in
> > my group about big things or really fat people being more resistant to
> > weapons)
> >
> Hey Gurth, I really LIKE this idea, above:) What about you?

You want Ron to have extra armor because he's so fat? Erm... Well... No :)

------------------------

People who are fat should generally have (slightly) higher body
ratings, if they are otherwise equally healthy.

Mongoose
Message no. 55
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: armor
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:06:56 +0100
According to Mongoose, at 0:00 on 10 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> > > Hey Gurth, I really LIKE this idea, above:) What about you?
> >
> > You want Ron to have extra armor because he's so fat? Erm... Well... No :)
>
> People who are fat should generally have (slightly) higher body
> ratings, if they are otherwise equally healthy.

This character isn't. He eats way too much and exercises way too little.
(Did we mention he's a Cow shaman? He's a Cow shaman.) To tell the truth I
still have some trouble understanding why he's a shadowrunner in the first
place, but Jester thinks it's a cool character concept.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If it's no use pretending, then I don't want to know.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 56
From: Jordan findlerman@*****.com
Subject: armor
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:30:07 -0800 (PST)
Sorry for the delay in response. I have been under, and am still
recovering from some nasty form of the flu that's been running rampant
around here. Not to worry, though, I've been told that it isn't
communicatible though e-mailings, so you can stop rushing to put on
your bio-hazard suits.

For what it's worth (and I'm not saying that's much) I learned,
through a recently promoted marine-friend of mine, that it takes near
three feet of 'roughly packed dirt' to stop a round fired by most
firearms, currently (circa 1998). I am sure that most of us can find
access to three feet of 'roughly packed' dirt to use as a base of
reference. Also, though, add in the advances in Guns, ammo, and
space-aged pillow-making techniques.

> > Hmm, make that one, full stop. I remember in high school, during a
> > physics
> > class on force. My physics teacher (black belt third dan in tai
kwon do)

It's _*TAE*_ Kwon DO. TAE, TAE, TAE!. Tai is one 'h' away (thai)
from pissing off a bunch of korean (where Tae Kwon Do originated)
Matial artist.


sorry bout that...I need sleep...and lots of happy-pills to make this
head-ache go away...:)


> The phonebook is reasonably solid and thus will transmit the force of
> the blow well (although it *will* distribute the force over a larger
> area). The pillow will compress a lot and will thus absorb a quantity
> of the energy. The pillow would probably give an impact of 1 or 2,
> depending on the pillow and the weapon used (sword? impact=0).

I do not agree. I only say this because i have recently done
something similar to this. I was testing out the new edge on my
Shiro-sai (Tanto). Sure, the phone book was (eventually) demolished,
but it put up a reasonable fight, and I don't live in a huge town.
Similar results came when I tried it out on a pillow that we use a
padding for my dog's bed. Mind you, my tanto is NOT monofilament, but
it *is* sharp. It put a welt-like cut in the pillow, and sent some
stuffing flying after that first hit, but it would still protect. So,
on the phone book rating, it would have to depend on the town the book
came from, but I would put an L.A. or New York phone book up near 3-4
Impact, it desperses the impact of it well, and out right stops the
cutting of the blade...for the first few cuts....mind you, this all
depends on either covering your body with phone books and pillows, or
being adept at the art of pillow-defense.

I dunno, maybe i'm being too liberal with the protection points....oh,
well....if all else fails, i'll blame it on the flu impairing my
judgement. :P

Go with whichever god you believe in,
--JW
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 57
From: DragonC147@***.com DragonC147@***.com
Subject: Armor
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 23:53:12 EST
--part1_54.cb199e1.275b2bb8_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,

I'm looking through the cannon companion at the armor section, and I have a
question. With the Victory line, you can get a jumpsuit or Coverall. What
is the difference between the two?

Dragon Claw

--part1_54.cb199e1.275b2bb8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT SIZE=2>Hi,
<BR>
<BR>I'm looking through the cannon companion at the armor section, and I have a
<BR>question. &nbsp;With the Victory line, you can get a jumpsuit or Coverall.
&nbsp;What <BR>is the difference between the two?
<BR>
<BR>Dragon Claw</FONT></HTML>

--part1_54.cb199e1.275b2bb8_boundary--
Message no. 58
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Armor
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 11:08:13 +0100
According to DragonC147@***.com, on Sun, 03 Dec 2000 the word on the
street was...

> I'm looking through the cannon companion at the armor section, and I have a
> question. With the Victory line, you can get a jumpsuit or Coverall. What
> is the difference between the two?

Not sure, but I'd say a jumpsuit is worn by itself (maybe with other stuff
over the top of it), while a coverall goes over your other clothes.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 59
From: Michael Baer m.r.baer@********.att.net
Subject: Armor
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 10:18:11 -0500
Style and general use are probably also a factor. IE: The coveralls are worn
by construction workers mainly, while inner-city teens may think that the
coveralls are in style.

~NexusVoid
(AKA Mike Baer the Magical Mystical Ninja)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Got Bling?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=------ Original Message -----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 5:08 AM
Subject: Re: Armor


According to DragonC147@***.com, on Sun, 03 Dec 2000 the word on the
street was...

> I'm looking through the cannon companion at the armor section, and I have
a
> question. With the Victory line, you can get a jumpsuit or Coverall.
What
> is the difference between the two?

Not sure, but I'd say a jumpsuit is worn by itself (maybe with other stuff
over the top of it), while a coverall goes over your other clothes.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Armor, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!