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From:	Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Armor Degradation
Date:	Thu, 8 Sep 1994 08:30:28 -0700

Message no. 1 I though having to take a Moderate Wound before the armor is
damaged is a good idea, myself. A Light wound implies a scratch or some
similiarly trivial hit; Moderate wounds and up you are starting to be
_hurt_, so your armor is absorbing more and more of the blow (if you live).

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+

From:	Ed equine@***********.com
Subject:	Armor Degradation
Date:	Fri, 05 Mar 1999 00:21:39 -0600

Message no. 2 Just wondering if anyone uses the Optional rules from the FoF book or if
they made up their own. If you use the one from the FoF could you explain
it to me because the book confused me a little. Maybe I am just not
thinking straight but I just did not understand what it was saying.

Ed

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From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Armor Degradation
Date:	Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:56:55 +0100

Message no. 3 According to Ed, at 0:21 on 5 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> Just wondering if anyone uses the Optional rules from the FoF book or if
> they made up their own. If you use the one from the FoF could you explain
> it to me because the book confused me a little. Maybe I am just not
> thinking straight but I just did not understand what it was saying.

I don't use those rules because I find them a bit skewed. As a matter of
fact I don't use an yarmor degradation rules (not even those I helped
write), mainly because IMHO all sets I've found either add too much hassle
to work quickly enough for use in the middle of a combat situation, or are
too unrealistic for me (the FoF rules fall into that last category).

Anyway, those in FoF work as follows:

Any time a character takes a Moderate physical wound or more, divide the
attack's Power Level by the armor value. Then subtract the result from the
armor's rating that was used to resist the damage.

For example, an 8S shotgun is fired at someone wearing armor clothing
(3/0). The character takes a Moderate wound, so the Ballistic armor rating
is reduced by 8 / 3 = 2.67, which rounds to 2 or 3 as you prefer -- it
doesn't say in FoF, but I assume it rounds down to 2. Thus, 2 is
subtracted from the Ballistic rating, making it 3 - 2 = 1.

This same shotgun against an armor jacket (5/3) would reduce the Ballistic
rating by 8 / 5 = 1.6, or only 1 point.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hoera, we leven nog!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject:	Armor Degradation
Date:	Fri, 05 Mar 1999 07:52:53 -0400

Message no. 4 "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Ed."
] Just wondering if anyone uses the Optional rules from the FoF book or if
] they made up their own. If you use the one from the FoF could you explain
] it to me because the book confused me a little. Maybe I am just not
] thinking straight but I just did not understand what it was saying.

Okay, FoF rules synopsis (as I understand them):

First of all, if it's a Light wound, ignore it. It has to be Moderate
or higher. Also, it's gotta be Physical, not Stun damage.

Then, you compare the power of the weapon and the Ballistic
value of the armour. Every time you can put the Ballistic value
into the Power (and I gather there's no rounding done here), one
point of Ballistic is lost. Impact is handled the same way, and
I would say separately. Hardened armour and vehicle armour
take the same lumps, but critter armour is unaffected.

Example:

Billy Orleans threw french fries at that McHugh's rent-a-cop
one too many times. The McHugh's employee wipes the
ketchup off his smart goggles, and puts a well-placed bullet
into Billy, and also into Rhonda, who was winding up with
fries of her own. Billy's wearing an armoured jacket (5/3),
Rhonda's got her secure ultra-vest (3/2). The gun the McCop
pulled is a nasty Predator II (9M).
We'll assume both Billy and Rhonda ended up with
Moderate Physical wounds. So...5 (Billy's Ballistic armour)
goes into 9 just once...that means Billy's Seattle Seahawks
jacket just got a hole punched in it (the Ballistic rating is
reduced by 1). His jacket is now Rating 4/3. Rhonda is
waaay worse off. 3 (her Ballistic rating) goes into 9 three
fraggin' times. Oops...her vest is good for nothing now
(3-3=0, for a Rating of 0/2). She'd better not get shot again.
(Wouldja like fries with that, fragger?)

So that's the canon take on it, straight from the Fields of
Fire. House rules, anyone?

Scott W

From:	Ryan W. Bolduan emeottrw@***.umn.edu
Subject:	Armor Degradation
Date:	Fri, 5 Mar 1999 05:53:41 -0600 (CST)

Message no. 5 > > Just wondering if anyone uses the Optional rules from the FoF book or if
> > they made up their own. If you use the one from the FoF could you explain
> > it to me because the book confused me a little. Maybe I am just not
> > thinking straight but I just did not understand what it was saying.
>
> I don't use those rules because I find them a bit skewed. As a matter of
> fact I don't use an yarmor degradation rules (not even those I helped
> write), mainly because IMHO all sets I've found either add too much hassle
> to work quickly enough for use in the middle of a combat situation, or are
> too unrealistic for me (the FoF rules fall into that last category).
>

I too find the FoF armor degredation just a tad too cumbersome to use in a
fast and dirty gunfight. In response, my group and I have developed a
method of degredation that although not very realistic makes the team
think twice about putting their brand new security armor out in the open.
Everybody knows about it, so it's simple and easy to use too. Whenever a
a PC/NPC takes a wound above deadly (somebody gets 2 or more dice over the
deadly category) you reduce the appropriate armor type by the number of
rolls/2. It's fast, it's easy and nobody complains that they've taken two
medium wounds and their longcoat is trashed. It has problems when you
integrate in dodging, but in the end we think it balances out.

--
Ryan Bolduan
emeottrw@***.umn.edu

From:	Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject:	Armor Degradation
Date:	Fri, 05 Mar 1999 07:55:59 -0400

Message no. 6 "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Gurth."

<heavy snipping of Gurth's explanation of FoF rules>

Dammit! In the time it took to write out my own
reply, Gurth punches his up there...<sigh>
Oh well.

Scott W, slow on the draw.

From:	Ed equine@******.net
Subject:	Armor Degradation
Date:	Fri, 05 Mar 1999 10:12:36 -0600

Message no. 7 At 11:56 AM 3/5/99 +0100, you wrote:
>I don't use those rules because I find them a bit skewed. As a matter of
>fact I don't use an yarmor degradation rules (not even those I helped
>write), mainly because IMHO all sets I've found either add too much hassle
>to work quickly enough for use in the middle of a combat situation, or are
>too unrealistic for me (the FoF rules fall into that last category).

The reason I want to use some form of armor degradation is because I am
tired of the **&* method of I have this chainmail armor that I have been
wearing for years. I have almost been killed by a pack of giants and a
couple of dragons....but look how pretty it still looks.

I guess you could just say...damn that armor is looking pretty shabby. If
I were you I would buy some more. I would like to have some way of
determining how much protection it would offer if they did not buy more.

Ed

_________________________________________________________________
"The Green Machine"| Ed Mayhall | TEL Undisclosed
'94 ....__ Neon | PO BOX 703804 | EMAIL:equine@******.net
GEO |_|_|\_\ Green | Dallas, Tx 75370 |
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From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Armor Degradation
Date:	Sat, 6 Mar 1999 13:52:30 +0100

Message no. 8 According to Ryan W. Bolduan, at 5:53 on 5 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> Whenever a a PC/NPC takes a wound above deadly (somebody gets 2 or more
> dice over the deadly category) you reduce the appropriate armor type by
> the number of rolls/2.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying you use SR1 armor degradation
rules, right? :)

(In SR1, every step damage would be staged over Deadly, one point of armor
was removed instead.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hoera, we leven nog!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Armor Degradation
Date:	Sat, 6 Mar 1999 11:23:31 -0600

Message no. 9 :I guess you could just say...damn that armor is looking pretty shabby.
If
:I were you I would buy some more. I would like to have some way of
:determining how much protection it would offer if they did not buy more.
:
: Ed

That's basically the way we've done it- my samurai wore something
along the lines of form fit and an armour jacket most times, and replaces
the jacket once every run or two, to avoid looking scuzzy. That's
probably less than he should, and I'll admit, I didn't voluntarily replace
heavy armor, helmets, and other hard to get stuff. Eventually, armor you
wear all the time becomes a "Distinctive Appearance" flaw, especially if
it has noticeable combat wear- that should keep people changing outfits,
if nothing else.
Sometimes the GM would arbitrarily decide armor was simply unwearable.
Damage from spells could do this (acid manipulations in particular). The
above character was wearing heavy armor, and in melee combat with a drone
that exploded. He lived, (actually, I burned karma and took "only" a
serious wound) but his suit of heavy armor was useless. I was pissed- if
I only took a serous, how bad could the armor be? He decided it could not
be repaired- partly, I think because under SR2, combat pool used for
damage resistance made complete dodges really easy if you wore good armor-
and that character had GOBS of CP.
But thinking on it, even a few dents and some warping at the joints
would make the armor hard to move in. It may sound kinda D+D, like dented
platemail, but it makes some sense that certain armors would hinder the
user (more than SR3 already calls for) if they were not in good repair.
I personally think just keeping track of how much damage the wearer of
a piece of armor takes, and subtracting that injury mod from its value,
would work. If you take two moderates from gunfire, your ballistic armor
would go down 3 points. The one problem with this is that some light
armors are quite distributed. Its unlikey that a light wound taken while
wearing armored clothing damages a large enough part of the outfit to
really matter. I can't see any way to get much fancier without a hit
location system, though.
If anybody DOES come up with something really good for this (armor
degradation), it might be worth adapting to Cyberlimb damage, and damage
to other cyberware like dermal plating.

Mongoose

From:	David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject:	Armor Degradation
Date:	Sat, 6 Mar 1999 11:36:02 -0700 (MST)

Message no. 10 Here's a simple way to handle armor degradation.

After the combat encounter is over have everyone who was hit (had to
make a damage resistance test) make an armor degradation (4) test. Use
the armor's ballistic rating if the character was subjected to bullets
and such, impact rating if he was attacked by melee attacks. If a
character was hit by both balistic and impact attacks his armor has to
make two tests.

The number of successes required to avoid degradation is based on the
Damage Level of the weapon(s) the character was hit by (use the highest
Damage Level if the character was hit multiple times), and may be modified
by other factors (see below).

Highest Base Damage Level Successes Required
------------------------------------------
Light 1
Moderate 2
Serious 3
Deadly 4
Explosive Attack +1
Multiple Hits +1
BF or FA Attack +1

If the armor rolls the required number of successes, it doesn't
degrade. If it fails to roll the required successes, reduce the
appropriate rating by 1.

Are there any glaring holes, or a better way of doing it?

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
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The ShadowRN FAQ
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--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
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From:	David Hinkley dhinkley@***.org
Subject:	Armor Degradation
Date:	Sun, 7 Mar 1999 00:58:29 -0800

Message no. 11 From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>
Subject: Re: Armor Degradation
To: shadowrn@*********.org
Date sent: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 11:36:02 -0700 (MST)
Send reply to: shadowrn@*********.org

> Here's a simple way to handle armor degradation.
>
> After the combat encounter is over have everyone who was hit (had to
> make a damage resistance test) make an armor degradation (4) test. Use
> the armor's ballistic rating if the character was subjected to bullets
> and such, impact rating if he was attacked by melee attacks. If a
> character was hit by both balistic and impact attacks his armor has to
> make two tests.
>
> The number of successes required to avoid degradation is based on the
> Damage Level of the weapon(s) the character was hit by (use the highest
> Damage Level if the character was hit multiple times), and may be modified
> by other factors (see below).
>
> Highest Base Damage Level Successes Required
> ------------------------------------------
> Light 1
> Moderate 2
> Serious 3
> Deadly 4
> Explosive Attack +1
> Multiple Hits +1
> BF or FA Attack +1
>
> If the armor rolls the required number of successes, it doesn't
> degrade. If it fails to roll the required successes, reduce the
> appropriate rating by 1.
>
> Are there any glaring holes, or a better way of doing it?

The hole I see as glaring is that the owner of the armor would KNOW if his
armor was good or not. Even if the GM made the rolls in secret, the fact that
the GM was conserned or not concerned about whether he was still using
that armor that saved his life three runs ago would give it away.

I have a much better solution, once armor has stopped a bullet, any size any
caliber the armor is used. When resolving ranged combat involving "used"
armor roll 2 D6s on a result of 12 the armor's rating is not used. While this
method may not be realistic, it should get realistic results. Rich PCs will
replace their armor everytime it is hit, poor PCs will be more careful and
there should be fewer instances of "Clank, Clank, I'm a Tank" as I would
apply this rule on a firefight by firefight basis. That is you are on a run, you
get hit going in, you will have flakey armor coming out.

David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

===================================================Those who are too intelligent to engage
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are punished by being governed by those who are not
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