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Message no. 1
From: "Jackson, Hank" <Hank.Jackson@*********.COM>
Subject: Artificial Intelligence
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:23:24 -0500
Hi All,

I was rereading VR 2.0 and had a new thought. What is IT that the Okatu
experience Deep Resonance with? In The Moon is a Harsh Mistress,
Heinlien put forth the idea that a computer that has achieved a number
of connections comparable to those in a human brain can "wake up" and
achieve sentience. Now, there have been rumors in Shadowrun material
about the existence of AI, but no specifics or proof. Now we have the
Okatu who interrelate with IT. I think IT could be an AI, but from
where? The Matrix itself has enough interconnections to reach
"critical mass" and achieve sentience. Why could it not be the AI?
This poses some questions. Why would an entity allow the UCAS gov't to
brutally crash the Chicago LTG and take away that section of it's
"brain"? Why would it allow parasites, read deckers, to go wild in it's
"head" Are the Okatu "receiving" parts of this "global"
consciousness?
It makes me wonder.

Galen
Message no. 2
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:38:43 -0500
Galen didst sayeth unto the List:
>Hi All,
>

Hi.

>I was rereading VR 2.0 and had a new thought. What is IT that the Okatu
>experience Deep Resonance with? In The Moon is a Harsh Mistress,

As someone who just picked up VR2 yesterday ( and RBB2, joy! ), I have to
jump in on this one...

>Heinlien put forth the idea that a computer that has achieved a number
>of connections comparable to those in a human brain can "wake up" and
>achieve sentience. Now, there have been rumors in Shadowrun material
>about the existence of AI, but no specifics or proof. Now we have the
>Okatu who interrelate with IT. I think IT could be an AI, but from
>where? The Matrix itself has enough interconnections to reach
>"critical mass" and achieve sentience. Why could it not be the AI?
>This poses some questions. Why would an entity allow the UCAS gov't to
>brutally crash the Chicago LTG and take away that section of it's
>"brain"? Why would it allow parasites, read deckers, to go wild in it's
>"head" Are the Okatu "receiving" parts of this "global"
consciousness?
>It makes me wonder.
>

Sounds pretty good. If the Matrix has become large enough to be sentient,
then it isn't so much an Artifical Intelligence as it is a new form of life.
As for the damage to it from killing Chicago's LTG, so early in its
sentience, how can it stop us petty humans from unplugging a piece? It may
not have liked it, but the Resonance cudn't stop us, YET. Should the powers
that would be try something like that in 2070 or 2080, the Matrix may end up
rerouting the crap out of itself and reconnecting the hosts.

As for its failure to stop the deckers from travelling the Matrix, since
most of them don't seek to destroy, only to explore or communicate, why wuld
it even try to stop them. I figure the Otaku are its representatives, sent
into our world in an attempt to make contact and announce its existance.
And once some of them grow up and get involved in the world on a larger
scale, perhaps the view of the Matrix will change.

I guess we'll have to wait for VR3 to find out for sure :)

Later-
Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Berek Thunderfist, Wolf Lord of the Blackmane Company
-Freelance Corporate Espionage Agent
-Tech Priest in Training
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
you've sold your soul, now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice T
Message no. 3
From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:44:14 +0000
"Jackson, Hank" <Hank.Jackson@*********.COM> once wrote


> Hi All,
>
> I was rereading VR 2.0 and had a new thought. What is IT that the Okatu
> experience Deep Resonance with? In The Moon is a Harsh Mistress,
> Heinlien put forth the idea that a computer that has achieved a number
> of connections comparable to those in a human brain can "wake up" and
> achieve sentience. Now, there have been rumors in Shadowrun material
> about the existence of AI, but no specifics or proof. Now we have the
> Okatu who interrelate with IT. I think IT could be an AI, but from
> where? The Matrix itself has enough interconnections to reach
> "critical mass" and achieve sentience. Why could it not be the AI?
> This poses some questions. Why would an entity allow the UCAS gov't to
> brutally crash the Chicago LTG and take away that section of it's
> "brain"? Why would it allow parasites, read deckers, to go wild in it's
> "head" Are the Okatu "receiving" parts of this
"global" consciousness?
> It makes me wonder.
>
> Galen

I think we all are in agreement on the fact that AIs do exist in SR.
Is the Deep Resonance one? Yes, I think so... Just read carefully
the little chat between Ambrose and -H- in VR 2.0, and you can see
that, at least, they think it's one. Also, just before the
Semi-Autonomous Knowbots section, we have a small post, which gave me
a lot of ideas for SR, and had actually confirmed, for me at least,
the existence of AIs...

"They are what I was" - Morgan (I think..I don't have VR 2.0
handy)

Make of it what you will.. ;) Of course, I don't recommend making
AIs common. At most, I think there should be 2..maybe 3... maybe a
little more..but not tons of them...

Trinity
-------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca

"Life is a blur"
Message no. 4
From: Jason Hyatt <jhyatt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:27:17 -0500
>Why would it allow parasites, read deckers, to go wild in it's "head"

To it the deckers wouldn't seem to be parasites they would actually be
helping the AI by making the corps change there system all the time
adding more connections to matrix. this would help the AI to grow and
evolve thats why it would help the Otaku
Message no. 5
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:01:20 EST
On Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:44:14 +0000 Frank Pelletier
<jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA> writes:

>I think we all are in agreement on the fact that AIs do exist in SR.
>Is the Deep Resonance one? Yes, I think so... Just read carefully
>the little chat between Ambrose and -H- in VR 2.0, and you can see
>that, at least, they think it's one. Also, just before the
>Semi-Autonomous Knowbots section, we have a small post, which gave me
>a lot of ideas for SR, and had actually confirmed, for me at least,
>the existence of AIs...

So are we looking at a symbiotic relationship between Otaku and AI's?
Something with a hint of a client/server relationship maybe? The AI
creates a custom interface with the Otaku's brain removing the need for a
regular deck, and in exchange the Otaku unwittingly refines the "code"
with any upgrades s/he'd make (what were they called? Complex Forms?
etc..)... Hmmm..

I guess now I'll have to go and actually read the VR 2.0 now...

~Tim
Message no. 6
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:32:41 -0500
>>I think we all are in agreement on the fact that AIs do exist in SR.
>>Is the Deep Resonance one? Yes, I think so... Just read carefully
>>the little chat between Ambrose and -H- in VR 2.0, and you can see
>>that, at least, they think it's one. Also, just before the
>>Semi-Autonomous Knowbots section, we have a small post, which gave me
>>a lot of ideas for SR, and had actually confirmed, for me at least,
>>the existence of AIs...
>
>So are we looking at a symbiotic relationship between Otaku and AI's?
>Something with a hint of a client/server relationship maybe? The AI
>creates a custom interface with the Otaku's brain removing the need for a
>regular deck, and in exchange the Otaku unwittingly refines the "code"
>with any upgrades s/he'd make (what were they called? Complex Forms?
>etc..)... Hmmm..
>
>I guess now I'll have to go and actually read the VR 2.0 now...
I think, if you're going to talk about the Deep Resonance being an
extremely powerful AI, then we need to think about Gibson's Neuromancer,
and an AI who is, effectively, the Grid as a whole, or some sort of
personification thereof... Though I think this clashes with what has been
said about AIs in SR (where they are supposed to be rare if they exist at
all). Now, in Cyberpunk, AIs are a fact of life, much like in Gibson's
world, and so it is not so great a leap to an immense, powerful AI with a
hand in a lot of things in the world.

losthalo, the rumors of my death are greatly exagerated
Message no. 7
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:26:06 +1000
Trinity wrote:
>I think we all are in agreement on the fact that AIs do exist in SR.
>Is the Deep Resonance one? Yes, I think so... Just read carefully
>the little chat between Ambrose and -H- in VR 2.0, and you can see
>that, at least, they think it's one. Also, just before the
>Semi-Autonomous Knowbots section, we have a small post, which gave me
>a lot of ideas for SR, and had actually confirmed, for me at least,
>the existence of AIs...
>
> "They are what I was" - Morgan (I think..I don't have VR 2.0
>handy)


That quote is directly from the first Trilogy (with Sam Verner). Morgan is
....

spoilers for Secrets of Power (I'm sure there is someone that hasn't read
this series)





















an AI that came alive when Renraku was fiddling with Semi Autonomous
Knowbots. She used to be one herself until Dodger and Sam hacked the
Renraku computer system and came to 'life'. Later on she is standing with
dodger watching some Knowbots attack a system and she tells Dodger, 'They
are what I was.'

NightRain.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed|
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
Message no. 8
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:34:07 -0500
Galen <Hank.Jackson@*********.COM> wrote:
>I was rereading VR 2.0 and had a new thought. What is IT that the Okatu
>experience Deep Resonance with? In The Moon is a Harsh Mistress,
>Heinlien put forth the idea that a computer that has achieved a number
>of connections comparable to those in a human brain can "wake up" and
>achieve sentience. Now, there have been rumors in Shadowrun material
>about the existence of AI, but no specifics or proof. Now we have the
>Okatu who interrelate with IT. I think IT could be an AI, but from
>where? The Matrix itself has enough interconnections to reach
>"critical mass" and achieve sentience. Why could it not be the AI?
>This poses some questions. Why would an entity allow the UCAS gov't to
>brutally crash the Chicago LTG and take away that section of it's
>"brain"? Why would it allow parasites, read deckers, to go wild in it's
>"head" Are the Okatu "receiving" parts of this "global"
consciousness?
>It makes me wonder.

<shamelessplug>
Take a look at my novel TECHNOBABEL when it comes out in March. You will find
some of those very questions raised about the Matrix, the otaku and a few
other elements of the Sixth World.
</shameless plug>

AIs haven't had much of an impact on the Sixth World yet but, as they say,
it's still early. Just wait and see.

Steve K.
Message no. 9
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 03:02:33 -0500
In a message dated 97-10-28 00:51:23 EST, you write:

> Take a look at my novel TECHNOBABEL when it comes out in March. You will
find
> some of those very questions raised about the Matrix, the otaku and a few
> other elements of the Sixth World.
> </shameless plug>
>
> AIs haven't had much of an impact on the Sixth World yet but, as they say,
> it's still early. Just wait and see.
>
> Steve K.

Keith, if you have not read CA yet, read the rest of this and then kill me
later ...

Spolier for Clockwork Asylum


















Congratulate me everybody, this was my first spoiler ... anyone consider that
by now (2058) that the virus of 2029 (which is still around somewhere) has
now become an AI, and who knows what the frag it is planning, and only heaven
knows in what off-line system it is in waiting for someone to hook it back up
into the matrix ... oh my God ! This is perhaps the best weapon for
Winternight, the virus is capable of destroying what they call the domain of
Loki, hehe .... boy are the guys in Keith's and mine's group gonna hate me
royally ...

Mike
Message no. 10
From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:52:42 +1100
At 03:02 28/10/97 -0500, Mike Bobroff wrote:
> .... boy are the guys in Keith's and mine's group gonna hate me
>royally ...

Have you read Vernor Vinge's "A Fire Upon The Deep"? Sounds similar.
Recommended reading if you haven't.

Chris

_______________________________________________________________
Chris Maxfield Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart: "You
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> know, just once I'd like to meet an alien
Canberra, Australia menace that wasn't immune to bullets."
Message no. 11
From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:51:21 +1100
At 17:23 26/10/97 -0500, Jackson, Hank wrote:
>I was rereading VR 2.0 and had a new thought. What is IT that the Okatu
>experience Deep Resonance with? In The Moon is a Harsh Mistress,
>Heinlien put forth the idea that a computer that has achieved a number
>of connections comparable to those in a human brain can "wake up" and
>achieve sentience. Now, there have been rumors in Shadowrun material
>about the existence of AI, but no specifics or proof. Now we have the

Do we need proof. No. We're all certain they're here.

>Okatu who interrelate with IT. I think IT could be an AI, but from
>where? The Matrix itself has enough interconnections to reach
>"critical mass" and achieve sentience. Why could it not be the AI?
>This poses some questions. Why would an entity allow the UCAS gov't to
>brutally crash the Chicago LTG and take away that section of it's
>"brain"? Why would it allow parasites, read deckers, to go wild in it's
>"head" Are the Okatu "receiving" parts of this "global"
consciousness?
>It makes me wonder.

If the AI is an entity that lives in the Matrix then it must be rapidly
mastering its environment. At the time the UCAS government took down the
Chicago LTG the AI may have thought nothing of this - just an alteration to
its environment, though it may be a bit more possessive of its territory in
the future. It probably may think nothing of deckers etc. except as
interesting creatures in the ecology of its environment - to be subtly
observed and subtly interfered with.

If the Matrix is the AI - as some kind of emergent phenomenon - then we
have an entirely different kettle of fish. For starters it may not be aware
of anything within the matrix itself anymore then we're aware of what is
physically going on in our own skulls. (We're not aware of the individual
operations of each neuron in our brain. We're not aware of the individual
transmissions between neurons nor can we control them. We're not aware of
the small parasites in our brain. We're not aware of thin walls of blood
vessels in our brain nor can we order the wall not to rupture. Its all part
of life.) Similarly the AI may not have any awareness nor control over the
individual components of the matrix itself. The loss of the Chicago LTG may
have been like a stroke to the poor thing. In 2058 it may still be learning
about itself and the Otaku phenomenon is one of the first steps it takes to
know itself.


Chris

_______________________________________________________________
Chris Maxfield Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart: "You
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> know, just once I'd like to meet an alien
Canberra, Australia menace that wasn't immune to bullets."
Message no. 12
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:12:51 -0700
At 00:51 10/29/97 +1100, you wrote:

>>achieve sentience. Now, there have been rumors in Shadowrun material
>>about the existence of AI, but no specifics or proof. Now we have the
>
>Do we need proof. No. We're all certain they're here.

Are we?
FASA has never come out and said "There are AI's in the Sixth World.", and
I hope they never do. Being certain about something (And we can't be
certain), is never as much fun as guessing about it.
Try telling a scientist he doesn't need proof.

-Adam

-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/jurybench
Message no. 13
From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:40:33 +1100
At 07:12 28/10/97 -0700, Adam J wrote:
>>Do we need proof. No. We're all certain they're here.
>
>Are we?
>FASA has never come out and said "There are AI's in the Sixth World.", and
>I hope they never do. Being certain about something (And we can't be
>certain), is never as much fun as guessing about it.
>Try telling a scientist he doesn't need proof.

Your quite right. I meant it to be tongue-in-cheek and 'house-rulish' but
forgot the smiley. The lack of definition and certainty in Shadowrun is, I
feel, a crucial part of what I like about the game.

As to scientists - they always need proof. But only enough proof to fit
their pet Theory. ;->

Chris

_______________________________________________________________
Chris Maxfield Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart: "You
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> know, just once I'd like to meet an alien
Canberra, Australia menace that wasn't immune to bullets."
Message no. 14
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:03:00 GMT
on 26.10.97 jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA wrote:

j> Also, just before the
j> Semi-Autonomous Knowbots section, we have a small post, which gave me
j> a lot of ideas for SR, and had actually confirmed, for me at least,
j> the existence of AIs...
j>
j> "They are what I was" - Morgan (I think..I don't have VR 2.0
j> handy)

Now, here's a spoiler for 'Secrets Of Power'...
















Geeeee...that's the AI from "Secrets Of Power". The thing Dodger and Sam
Verner created when they hacked the 'raku-mainframe.
(I mean, doesn't everybody know that? <looking disturbed>)

j> Make of it what you will.. ;) Of course, I don't recommend making
j> AIs common. At most, I think there should be 2..maybe 3... maybe a
j> little more..but not tons of them...

I'll stick with the Morgana (yup, the bad sister of Merlin) AI as the only
one. Just imagine what would happen if...say Aztech had an AI protecting
its mainframes. The AI doesn't have to stick to on computer, but could
look after *all* the 'frames. No decker will get past an AI alife.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 15
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:34:00 GMT
on 28.10.97 fro@***.AB.CA wrote:

f> >Do we need proof. No. We're all certain they're here.
f>
f> Are we?
f> FASA has never come out and said "There are AI's in the Sixth World.", and
f> I hope they never do. Being certain about something (And we can't be
f> certain), is never as much fun as guessing about it.

They did. In 'Secrets of Power' Morgana was an AI.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------

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