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Message no. 1
From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Ask for help (SR related)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:40:59 +0200
Oops ! I forgot to change the subject on my previous mail...

Here it is for those who skip the Age of Earth thread :

I'm planning on perfectionning a home rule I did some time ago and I would
need your help.
A part of this rule is to fix min. quickness and strength for the use of
melee weapons.
Here is what I did :

Weapon Strength Quickness
Fist 0 3
Knife 2 4
Sword 4 3
Axe 4 4
Katana 3 5
2H Sword 5 4
Staff 3 4

The minimum is for a professional use.
Could you please give me your opinion about these values and propositions
for other weapons. I especially would like to hear the opinion of those who
practice martial arts or combat techniques.

- Cobra.
Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Ask for help (SR related)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:02:33 +0100
Cobra said on 15:40/23 Apr 98...

> A part of this rule is to fix min. quickness and strength for the use of
> melee weapons.
[snip table]
> Could you please give me your opinion about these values and propositions
> for other weapons. I especially would like to hear the opinion of those who
> practice martial arts or combat techniques.

I don't practice martial arts, I never have, and most likely I never will,
but I can give you my opinion: don't put minimum attribute values on these
things, because IMHO it's often more the skill with which you wield
something than the strength you put behind it. Sure, for some weapons you
need to be strong to wield them effectively (large axes, etc.) but I feel
in SR it's more skills that are the deciding factor than attributes.

Another reason I dislike such limits is when you make them absolute
limits, saying "You can't use a sword because your Strength is less than
4." At least put in a penalty, in the order of a +1 or +2 for every point
by which your attributes are too low. Using your table, someone with
Strength 2 and Quickness 2 wielding a sword would then get a +3 or +6 to
the TN to hit someone.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
going down thinking
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 3
From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Ask for help (SR related)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 01:03:27 +0200
>> A part of this rule is to fix min. quickness and strength for the use of
>> melee weapons.
>[snip table]
>> Could you please give me your opinion about these values and propositions
>> for other weapons. I especially would like to hear the opinion of those who
>> practice martial arts or combat techniques.
>
>I don't practice martial arts, I never have, and most likely I never will,
>but I can give you my opinion: don't put minimum attribute values on these
>things, because IMHO it's often more the skill with which you wield
>something than the strength you put behind it. Sure, for some weapons you
>need to be strong to wield them effectively (large axes, etc.) but I feel
>in SR it's more skills that are the deciding factor than attributes.

That's true in SR system. That's why I wanted to change it a bit, without
losing simplicity (if this isn't possible, I'll the SR system).

>Another reason I dislike such limits is when you make them absolute
>limits, saying "You can't use a sword because your Strength is less than
>4." At least put in a penalty, in the order of a +1 or +2 for every point
>by which your attributes are too low. Using your table, someone with
>Strength 2 and Quickness 2 wielding a sword would then get a +3 or +6 to
>the TN to hit someone.

I only asked about a part of the rule. Actually, I wanted to apply +1 to TN
for each point under minimum strength and reduce usable combat pool by 1
for each point under minimum quickness.

- Cobra.
Message no. 4
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Ask for help (SR related)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 02:11:45 +0000
On 23 Apr 98, Cobra disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

<snip>
> The minimum is for a professional use.
> Could you please give me your opinion about these values and
> propositions for other weapons. I especially would like to hear the
> opinion of those who practice martial arts or combat techniques.

My opinion? It sucks. (;))) Now, I never trained for melee weapons
use, but the idea of "minimal quickness" is pretty, well, stupid. And
I don't see why katana should have a minimal Quickness of FIVE. That
means that anybody who practices kendo, kenjutsu, iaido, iajutsu or
any other form of armed combat with a katana has a quickness of five.
WHY?
It's the skill that matters, IMHO. At least that's what my experience
points to.

It's also a needless complication.

I can see the idea of minimal Strength - if somebody with a Str of 2
would try to fight with a two-hander, well, that would be messy. But
minimal Quickness? Come on...

(Oh, and if you are going to use it, use Gurth's idea of penalties.)

> - Cobra.


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.12 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ L++ P E--- W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O+ M-
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Support British Steel - smelt the Iron Lady.
Message no. 5
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Ask for help (SR related)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:34:50 -0700
> My opinion? It sucks. (;))) Now, I never trained for melee weapons
> use, but the idea of "minimal quickness" is pretty, well, stupid. And
> I don't see why katana should have a minimal Quickness of FIVE. That
> means that anybody who practices kendo, kenjutsu, iaido, iajutsu or
> any other form of armed combat with a katana has a quickness of five.
> WHY?
> It's the skill that matters, IMHO. At least that's what my experience
> points to.

This is something that has come up to a degree in my group at one point,
though from a different aspect: People who have been each studying a
particular subject for an equal amount of time will have an equal level of
ability, irregardless of difference in attributes. A guy with Int of 1 and
Military Theory of 8 is going to be just as good as a guy with a 6
Intelligence and Military Theory of 8. This came to a cumlination when I
ran an Otaku a while back, and put a big lump in "Unarmed Combat". In
essence, my 14 year old child with 1s in all physical stats could probably
avoid getting slain most heinously be a chromed sammy when it came to hand
to hand combat. Combat Pool should, in theory, make up for this some, but
even then I had a base of 8 in Intellignece and Willpower... in fact, I
think I had 10 in Intelligence with my cyberware and bioware. Combat Pool
o' 9, which is higher than the Sammy Archetype. With all the new goodies,
you could probably get more. But still. With 1 in Strength my odds of
landing a good blow were pretty poor, but my odds of staying alive were
insanely high.

We implimented a rule after that which basically limited how much you could
have a skill. IIRC, we did 1.5x the nearest attribute on the skillweb for
a general skill, 2x for Concentrations, and 3x for Specializations.
Message no. 6
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Ask for help (SR related)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:03:19 -0600
At 15:40 23/04/98 +0200, you wrote:

>I'm planning on perfectionning a home rule I did some time ago and I would
>need your help.
>A part of this rule is to fix min. quickness and strength for the use of
>melee weapons.
>Here is what I did :
>
>Weapon Strength Quickness
>Fist 0 3
>Knife 2 4
>Sword 4 3
>Axe 4 4
>Katana 3 5
>2H Sword 5 4
>Staff 3 4
>
>The minimum is for a professional use.

What the hell is 'professional' use? Use by a professional? Use by
somebody who has 23 in that skill? (Little bit of an in-joke here..;-)

>Could you please give me your opinion about these values and propositions
>for other weapons. I especially would like to hear the opinion of those who
>practice martial arts or combat techniques.

You need a quickness of 3 to bap somebody over your head with a fist?

4 in Strength & Quickness to swing an axe? *I* swing a full sized axe
pretty damn good.

Bleargh.

-Adam J
-
http://www.interware.it/users/adamj \ fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ# 2350330
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ FreeRPG Webring \ TSS Productions
The Shadowrun Supplemental \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ RPGA Reviwer
Message no. 7
From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Ask for help (SR related)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 04:10:54 +0200
><snip>
>> The minimum is for a professional use.
>> Could you please give me your opinion about these values and
>> propositions for other weapons. I especially would like to hear the
>> opinion of those who practice martial arts or combat techniques.
>
>My opinion? It sucks. (;))) Now, I never trained for melee weapons
>use, but the idea of "minimal quickness" is pretty, well, stupid. And
>I don't see why katana should have a minimal Quickness of FIVE. That
>means that anybody who practices kendo, kenjutsu, iaido, iajutsu or
>any other form of armed combat with a katana has a quickness of five.
>WHY?

PROFESSIONAL USE. You quoted it didn't seem to notice it.
And yes, I think that all professional practionners of those martial arts
do have quickness of 5 (at least). I see katanas as beings more difficult
to use than many standard weapons (hence the greater needed quickness).
Now, I asked for your opinion but I didn't see any... Why professionaly
using a katana wouldn't need a quickness of 5 ?

>It's the skill that matters, IMHO. At least that's what my experience
>points to.

Which you stated as zero at the beginning of your mail... :)
Skill matters a lot. I totally agree. However, I didn't plan to skip the
skill. It already has a big effect.

>It's also a needless complication.

I didn't give the rule of doing... How can you say it's a complication ?

>I can see the idea of minimal Strength - if somebody with a Str of 2
>would try to fight with a two-hander, well, that would be messy. But
>minimal Quickness? Come on...

See above and please give more detail about the minimal strength values.
Are they too high, not enough etc.

>(Oh, and if you are going to use it, use Gurth's idea of penalties.)

You must have seen my reply by the time you read this one. :)

- Cobra
Message no. 8
From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Ask for help (SR related)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 04:11:04 +0200
>This is something that has come up to a degree in my group at one point,
>though from a different aspect: People who have been each studying a
>particular subject for an equal amount of time will have an equal level of
>ability, irregardless of difference in attributes. A guy with Int of 1 and
>Military Theory of 8 is going to be just as good as a guy with a 6
>Intelligence and Military Theory of 8. This came to a cumlination when I
>ran an Otaku a while back, and put a big lump in "Unarmed Combat". In
>essence, my 14 year old child with 1s in all physical stats could probably
>avoid getting slain most heinously be a chromed sammy when it came to hand
>to hand combat. Combat Pool should, in theory, make up for this some, but
>even then I had a base of 8 in Intellignece and Willpower... in fact, I
>think I had 10 in Intelligence with my cyberware and bioware. Combat Pool
>o' 9, which is higher than the Sammy Archetype. With all the new goodies,
>you could probably get more. But still. With 1 in Strength my odds of
>landing a good blow were pretty poor, but my odds of staying alive were
>insanely high.
>
>We implimented a rule after that which basically limited how much you could
>have a skill. IIRC, we did 1.5x the nearest attribute on the skillweb for
>a general skill, 2x for Concentrations, and 3x for Specializations.

I did something too. I used the sum of two attributes. For exemple,
firearms would be limited by I+Q, Negociation by C+W, etc.

I'm now planning on something else (I'm not sure I'll use it) :
When you raise a skill above 4, you need to concentrate it. When above 8,
you need to specialize it. You can't increase a skill above 12. I think I
would use a karma multiplier of only 1 instead of the 2.

This would give something like this :
Sam the sammy has : Firearms 4, Pistols 8, Ares Predator 10.
If he wants to devellop in rifles, he would have to buy the Rifle
concentration in addition to the pistols.

- Cobra.
Message no. 9
From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Ask for help (SR related)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 04:17:17 +0200
>>I'm planning on perfectionning a home rule I did some time ago and I would
>>need your help.
>>A part of this rule is to fix min. quickness and strength for the use of
>>melee weapons.
>>Here is what I did :
>>
>>Weapon Strength Quickness
>>Fist 0 3
>>Knife 2 4
>>Sword 4 3
>>Axe 4 4
>>Katana 3 5
>>2H Sword 5 4
>>Staff 3 4
>>
>>The minimum is for a professional use.
>
>What the hell is 'professional' use? Use by a professional? Use by
>somebody who has 23 in that skill? (Little bit of an in-joke here..;-)

Someone who could compete for exemple. Or someone who uses the specified
weapon with ease.

>>Could you please give me your opinion about these values and propositions
>>for other weapons. I especially would like to hear the opinion of those who
>>practice martial arts or combat techniques.
>
>You need a quickness of 3 to bap somebody over your head with a fist?

Well... Perhaps a 2 would be better.
Anyway, you don't need it to bap the guy. You need it to do it well.

>4 in Strength & Quickness to swing an axe? *I* swing a full sized axe
>pretty damn good.
>
>Bleargh.

And you have a strength and a quickness of 4 ? :)

- Cobra.
Message no. 10
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Ask for help (SR related)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:27:25 -0600
At 04:17 24/04/98 +0200, you wrote:

>>>The minimum is for a professional use.
>>
>>What the hell is 'professional' use? Use by a professional? Use by
>>somebody who has 23 in that skill? (Little bit of an in-joke here..;-)
>
>Someone who could compete for exemple. Or someone who uses the specified
>weapon with ease.

I can compete.

I may not win. But anyone can compete.

The difference between a professional and anyone else? The professional
gets paid.


>>You need a quickness of 3 to bap somebody over your head with a fist?
>
>Well... Perhaps a 2 would be better.
>Anyway, you don't need it to bap the guy. You need it to do it well.

Well since you didn't post the rest of the rules, I couldn't assume that.

>>4 in Strength & Quickness to swing an axe? *I* swing a full sized axe
>>pretty damn good.
>>

>And you have a strength and a quickness of 4 ? :)

Probably closer to 2 for each, max of 3.

-Adam J
-
http://www.interware.it/users/adamj \ fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ# 2350330
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ FreeRPG Webring \ TSS Productions
The Shadowrun Supplemental \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ RPGA Reviwer
Message no. 11
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Ask for help (SR related)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 21:55:04 -0500
----------
> From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
> >We implimented a rule after that which basically limited how much you
could
> >have a skill. IIRC, we did 1.5x the nearest attribute on the skillweb
for
> >a general skill, 2x for Concentrations, and 3x for Specializations.
>
> I did something too. I used the sum of two attributes. For exemple,
> firearms would be limited by I+Q, Negociation by C+W, etc.
This isn't that bad. I like the idea that your attributes should have
some impact on your skills outside of dice pools (which don't cover all
actions one might do)

> I'm now planning on something else (I'm not sure I'll use it) :
> When you raise a skill above 4, you need to concentrate it. When above
8,
> you need to specialize it. You can't increase a skill above 12. I think
I
> would use a karma multiplier of only 1 instead of the 2.

I would personally increase the level at which you need to concentrate.
The maximum beginning skill is 6, and I think that's a good place.
Unfortunately, that throws off your other numbers.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
aka The Human Tangent
************
Three sparks that kindle love: a face, demeanour, speech
Three things that hide ugliness: good manners in the ill-favoured,
skill in a serf, wisdom in the misshapen.
Three things that ruin wisdom: ignorance, inaccurate knowledge,
forgetfullness. .
Three candles that illume every darkness: truth, nature, knowledge.
Three signs of a bad man: bitterness, hatred, cowardice.
Message no. 12
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Ask for help (SR related)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 06:02:56 +0000
On 24 Apr 98, Cobra disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

[...]
> >I don't see why katana should have a minimal Quickness of FIVE. That
> >means that anybody who practices kendo, kenjutsu, iaido, iajutsu or
> >any other form of armed combat with a katana has a quickness of five.
> >WHY?
>
> PROFESSIONAL USE. You quoted it didn't seem to notice it.

I did notice it.

Define professional use. Is somebody who competes in Taekwondo a
professional? What if he competes during the Olympics? Or does he
have to get paid to be a pro?

> And yes, I think that all professional practionners of those martial
> arts do have quickness of 5 (at least). I see katanas as beings more
> difficult to use than many standard weapons (hence the greater

Actually, no, katanas are not more difficult to use. Kusari-gama
would be difficult to use, three section staff would be difficult to
use, hell, even a two-hander is probably more difficult to use, even
if because it's more tiring. Japanese swordfighting is practically
all straight strokes, and hitting first - since the historical
katanas were made of iron, and quite brittle, parrying was too
dangerous for your sword.

> needed quickness). Now, I asked for your opinion but I didn't see
> any... Why professionaly using a katana wouldn't need a quickness of
> 5 ?

Because human average is 3, and I know quite a few people who
practice kendo and are not circus artists? Remember, 5 is high, 6 is
VERY high. (The "attributes above 6 for double karma" option is,
well, optional. So, in some worlds, 6 may well be human maximum)

> >It's the skill that matters, IMHO. At least that's what my experience
> >points to.
>
> Which you stated as zero at the beginning of your mail... :)

At melee combat. I do practice TKD, though. I'm not sure if I use the
skill profesionally, though - I don't start in competitions. But only
because of my eyesight... ;-//
And I do have quite a number of friends that are either from the
local SCA-equivalent or practice kendo.

> Skill matters a lot. I totally agree. However, I didn't plan to skip
> the skill. It already has a big effect.
>
> >It's also a needless complication.
>
> I didn't give the rule of doing... How can you say it's a
> complication ?

Any additional rule is a complication... You have to remember about
one more thing, and in 99% it won't be used anyway...

[...]
> See above and please give more detail about the minimal strength
> values. Are they too high, not enough etc.

Well, minimal strength seems to be a bit on the high side (4 to swing
an axe? 5 for two-hander? I can swing a two-hander a few times,
though I do tire very fast...), but it's passable. Quickness 5 for
the katana is, IMHO, totally out of line. I'd say you need more
quickness to fight with a staff than to use a katana...

And Strength would be more of an issue when parrying, but that's
beyond the scope of SR system...


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.12 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ L++ P E--- W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O+ M-
PS+(+++) PE Y+ PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
[I am] bright, charming, witty, athletic...go read Castiglione and Lord Byron for
particulars, as I'm modest, aloof and reticent, as well. - Merlin
Message no. 13
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Ask for help (SR related)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 06:02:56 +0000
On 23 Apr 98, Jeremy \ disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

[...]
> > It's the skill that matters, IMHO. At least that's what my experience
> > points to.
[snip Otaku-san]

> We implimented a rule after that which basically limited how much
> you could have a skill. IIRC, we did 1.5x the nearest attribute on
> the skillweb for a general skill, 2x for Concentrations, and 3x for
> Specializations.

Well, I DO use the skill regulation system I've found in the
Archive... So yes, I do limit skills depending on attributes, but
I've never yet encountered a situation that somebody would try to
have 1 Quickness and 6 Firearms, 6 Melee Combat or 6 Unarmed
Combat...


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.12 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ L++ P E--- W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O+ M-
PS+(+++) PE Y+ PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
LIBERTE - EGALITE - FRATERNITE - maternite.
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Ask for help (SR related)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:43:27 +0100
Cobra said on 4:10/24 Apr 98...

> PROFESSIONAL USE. You quoted it didn't seem to notice it.
> And yes, I think that all professional practionners of those martial arts
> do have quickness of 5 (at least). I see katanas as beings more difficult
> to use than many standard weapons (hence the greater needed quickness).

Well... I've played around with a blunt katana-replica a bit, and
although in anything resembling a real swordfight I'd get my ass kicked
(or cut :) it's not that difficult to make cuts or thrusts against
someone who is semi-expecting you to (in this case, one of my players when
we allowed him to GM for our group). And my Quickness certainly isn't 5
(Clumsiness yes, Quickness no :) Likewise, I managed to remove said katana
from his hand with a nunchaku when he was playing around with it, and I
hadn't really touched those before that time either.

In short, what I'm trying to say is that IMHO attribute limits aren't
really required; skill is what matters -- if I were to try those things
against someone skilled in using those weapons, I'd lose, but against
someone with just as much skill as I have (i.e. very little), it appears
to me that attributes don't really matter.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
It's better to have loved and lost
Than to listen to an Olivia Newton John record
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 15
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Ask for help (SR related)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:35:03 -0700
----------
> From: Leszek Karlik, aka Mike <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Ask for help (SR related)
> Date: Thursday, April 23, 1998 11:02 PM
>
> On 23 Apr 98, Jeremy \ disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
> writing:
>
> [...]
> > > It's the skill that matters, IMHO. At least that's what my experience
> > > points to.
> [snip Otaku-san]
>
> > We implimented a rule after that which basically limited how much
> > you could have a skill. IIRC, we did 1.5x the nearest attribute on
> > the skillweb for a general skill, 2x for Concentrations, and 3x for
> > Specializations.
>
> Well, I DO use the skill regulation system I've found in the
> Archive... So yes, I do limit skills depending on attributes, but
> I've never yet encountered a situation that somebody would try to
> have 1 Quickness and 6 Firearms, 6 Melee Combat or 6 Unarmed
> Combat...
>

What can I say? I got a little bored. =) My computer skill was about 10
or so, and I didn't feel like trying to push the threshold on it, so I
started investing in other skills. I think I had a at least a one in all
but 2 or 3 skills from the book. I was also saving up to buy a few
facilities for building cyberware.

We weren't doing nearly enough regulating of our characters at that time.
=)
Message no. 16
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ask for help (SR related)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:00:44 -0400
At 06:02 AM 4/24/98 +0000, you wrote:

>> PROFESSIONAL USE. You quoted it didn't seem to notice it.
>
>I did notice it.
>
>Define professional use. Is somebody who competes in Taekwondo a
>professional? What if he competes during the Olympics? Or does he
>have to get paid to be a pro?

Technically speaking a pro is someone that gets paid to practice their
sport. Everyone else, no matter how good, is an amatuer. I think it may
have been a poor word choice by Cobra.

>> needed quickness). Now, I asked for your opinion but I didn't see
>> any... Why professionaly using a katana wouldn't need a quickness of
>> 5 ?
>
>Because human average is 3, and I know quite a few people who
>practice kendo and are not circus artists? Remember, 5 is high, 6 is
>VERY high. (The "attributes above 6 for double karma" option is,
>well, optional. So, in some worlds, 6 may well be human maximum)

This "average" needs to be remembered anytime you decide to make minimums
and maximums for something. The average person, physically that is, can
use a katana to some degree of effect.

>> >It's the skill that matters, IMHO. At least that's what my experience
>> >points to.
>>
>> Which you stated as zero at the beginning of your mail... :)
>
Okay, how about someone that boxes?

I started out as Skill 0 in boxing. My punches were slow, not well placed,
and not terribly powerful.

My body hasn't changed a huge amount over the last six months or so.
Stronger and leaner, but not huge amounts in either category. Maybe 5 to 8
pounds of muscle gain, max bench press up by 30 to 50 pounds (I don't max
press, so I can't be totally sure how much).

But my punches, especially my combinations, are a drekload faster now. I
can punch a dime from nearly any angle, and my power has improved in a big
way.

So what has improved in the last six months, if it isn't my Strength and
Quickness stats? That's right, my Boxing Skill, which may be up to about 3.

So certain minimums make sense for certain weapons, like a massive claymore
(I know that's the bastardized English spelling) or a double-bladed battle
axe. But not more things like normal swords, katanas, unarmed combat, etc.
Unless you are Stephen Hawkings and confined to a wheelchair, anyone can
wield a sword.

Erik J.


"What was that popping sound?"

"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
Message no. 17
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Ask for help (SR related)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:21:39 -0400
At 04:10 AM 4/24/98 +0200, you wrote:
>PROFESSIONAL USE. You quoted it didn't seem to notice it.
>And yes, I think that all professional practionners of those martial arts
>do have quickness of 5 (at least).

Sorry, I don't think so. People who are skilled in a weapon or martial art
have skills (learned responses and reflexes) honed for that purpose. They
do not necessarily have a high Quickness. The purpose of training is to
increase the speed and accuracy of motions. Those with a high Quickness
have something of an edge in training, but it isn't a prerequisite. When
you see someone demonstrating karate moves in a match, you are seeing the
result of long-term training to get that fast and sure.

I see katanas as beings more difficult
>to use than many standard weapons (hence the greater needed quickness).

Using a katana is like using any sword, it requires a minimum of dexterity
(it's not for the clumsy, Quickness 1 is out) or the really weak ( Strength
1 is out, too). But that's true of any martial training, really... The
katana is a (relatively light, by European standards) sword. I've handled
more than one, and they're comfortable (moreso than a broadsword, say) and
easy to swing due to their light weight. A well-made weapon is easy to
use, and the katana is an example of this. Now, being good at the katana
is as difficult as being good with a spear, or a longbow, etc., it requires
dedication and endless training. But that's true of -all- weapons.

>Now, I asked for your opinion but I didn't see any... Why professionaly
>using a katana wouldn't need a quickness of 5 ?

Why? It doesn't -require- natural speed and dexterity to wield, or even
become especially good at. Training and dedication mean far more in many
pursuits than simple basic dexterity.

losthalo

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