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Message no. 1
From: pixelonpicnic@*******.com (Niels Sønderborg)
Subject: A small set of unrelated questions ...
Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 10:15:35 +0200
Every now and then questions have come up in my mind, which I wanted to ask
this list BUT I kept forgetting them, so now I have written them down for
once ... :)

First off ... Have the rules for the Shadowrun "board game" DMZ ever been
renewed or updated to match 2nd or 3rd edition Shadowrun and sourcebooks or
have it been abandoned long ago? If they have been updated, where can I find
them?

In MITS it states that if a person or object is flying or have no contact
with the ground, it cannot be damaged by Lightning spells. Is this the way
it should be interpreted or does it mind that a person or object hit by a
lightning spell or does it mean that the target just doesnt suffer the stun
and shortcircuit effects?

When you use Ritual Sorcery to track a person, what do you track? The
person's aura or body? This question is mainly thought out from the scenario
that a Shedim spirit has taken over a corpse or magician's body and a group
of magician's will try to locate it through rituals ... Will they locate the
body or the spirit of the magician searching or it, in case of the shedim
spirit, nothing at all?

What are the limitations on spirit commands? A player of mine ordered his
fire elemental to manifest of burn everything inside the cockpit of an
attack copter. He couldnt see the inside of the chopper, the chopper flying
overhead was all he could see. Can he do that, or only tell his elemental to
attack the chopper?

And last ... if a person want to build his own item how do you determing the
manufacturing costs for the items in question? This includes the costs for
customizing armors and even repairs for other items. It might be stated in
the rulebooks, but I cant recall if I have ever come accross this

Thank you in advance ...

Danely Greetings

Niels

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Message no. 2
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: A small set of unrelated questions ...
Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 10:51:52 +0200
According to Niels Sønderborg, on Wednesday 19 May 2004 10:15 the word on
the street was...

> First off ... Have the rules for the Shadowrun "board game" DMZ ever
> been renewed or updated to match 2nd or 3rd edition Shadowrun and
> sourcebooks or have it been abandoned long ago? If they have been
> updated, where can I find them?

The only product ever published for DMZ, aside from the basic set of
course, was Sprawl Maps. There were no updates to SRII or SR3, probably
because FASA didn't feel it was worth the bother :) Updating weapons to
SRII or later standards is fairly easy, since only a few need to be
changed -- and by comparing the DMZ stats with SRII ones, you can figure
out what they need to be changed to. I once (when I occasionally still
played DMZ) wrote these in pencil in the weapon stats list; here's what I
think needs to be adjusted:

Beretta 200ST: Light (MP), Ammo: 8 bursts, Damage: 3
Ares Viper Slivergun: Light (MP), Ammo: 10 bursts, Damage: 4
Enfield AS7: Ammo: 3 bursts, Damage: 5
Defiance T-250: Damage: 4
Mossberg CMDT: Ammo: 3 bursts, Damage: 5
All the LMGs need to have Damage: 4

And that's basically it. You can create stats for weapons from Fields of
Fire and later sourcebooks fairly easily by simply comparing them to
existing weapons. Ammo is as in the SR stats for an SS or SA weapon, or
the ammo capacity divided by 3 for BF and FA weapons; the Base Success
Value is that of another weapon of the same type, +2 if there's a built-in
smartlink; and Damage can also be found by looking at a comparable weapon.

> Do anyone still use this game for anything? I use the
> figures and maps for mass combat, so just wondering :)

I don't use the game for much anymore. The last time I played it was
several years ago, and the box and/or stuff in it are too big to take with
me when we play, so it normally just sits on my shelf of game boxes...

> In MITS it states that if a person or object is flying or have no
> contact with the ground, it cannot be damaged by Lightning spells. Is
> this the way it should be interpreted or does it mind that a person or
> object hit by a lightning spell or does it mean that the target just
> doesnt suffer the stun and shortcircuit effects?

IMHO it means that they simply are not affected by the spell.

> When you use Ritual Sorcery to track a person, what do you track? The
> person's aura or body? This question is mainly thought out from the
> scenario that a Shedim spirit has taken over a corpse or magician's body
> and a group of magician's will try to locate it through rituals ...

IMHO, they'll track the aura. However, the aura is connected to the body so
if you have one, you can find the other. (Or does a shedim cut that link?
If it doesn't say so, I would assume it doesn't.)

> What are the limitations on spirit commands? A player of mine ordered
> his fire elemental to manifest of burn everything inside the cockpit of
> an attack copter. He couldnt see the inside of the chopper, the chopper
> flying overhead was all he could see. Can he do that, or only tell his
> elemental to attack the chopper?

I would assume most elementals are smart enough to be given commands like
this, but I tend to play elementals as obeying commands pretty much to the
letter, showing little or no initiative (whereas nature spirits in my
games do). For example, I'd have had it burn _everything_ inside the
helicopter, not just inside the crew compartment. It'd be a random die
roll to see where it started: cabin, the tail rotor housing, somewhere
down the middle, etc.

If in doubt, you can have the elemental roll Intelligence to see if it
understands the order.

> And last ... if a person want to build his own item how do you determing
> the manufacturing costs for the items in question? This includes the
> costs for customizing armors and even repairs for other items. It might
> be stated in the rulebooks, but I cant recall if I have ever come
> accross this

For vehicles, you simply use the design rules in Rigger 3, while for
firearms, you can use the system in Cannon Companion, and the fules for
constructing cyberdecks appear in Matrix. For anything else, it's
basically whatever the GM thinks is appropriate, as there are no rules for
it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: docwagon101@*****.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: A small set of unrelated questions ...
Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 14:06:19 +0100 (BST)
> What are the limitations on spirit commands? A
> player of mine ordered his
> fire elemental to manifest of burn everything inside
> the cockpit of an
> attack copter. He couldnt see the inside of the
> chopper, the chopper flying
> overhead was all he could see. Can he do that, or
> only tell his elemental to
> attack the chopper?
> Niels

Just felt like putting my two cents in on this.

A spirit is a living, intelligent being. IMO, this
means it can obey any command any other living,
intelligent being could. Doesn't mean it can DO it
(if, for instance, the helicopter is warded), but it
can TRY. It's not a spell. It's not an unintelligent
magical construct. Thus, no line of sight is required.

If it was otherwise, how could a spirit be set to
patrol an area and "attack any unauthorised
personnel", for instance? The summoner can't see said
unauthorised personnel - for that matter s/he doesn't
even know for sure that anyone is going to turn up -
so if line of sight limited spirit orders, how could
the spirit ever patrol an area?

Anyway, that's how I see it.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!





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Message no. 4
From: chris@*******.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: A small set of unrelated questions ...
Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 23:21:22 +1000
Records show that at 06:15 PM on Wednesday 19/05/2004 AEDT, Niels
Sønderborg advised:
>In MITS it states that if a person or object is flying or have no contact
>with the ground, it cannot be damaged by Lightning spells. Is this the way
>it should be interpreted or does it mind that a person or object hit by a
>lightning spell or does it mean that the target just doesnt suffer the stun
>and shortcircuit effects?

That's in the Primary Damage paragraph and so it means the target is
completely immune to the spell.

>When you use Ritual Sorcery to track a person, what do you track? The
>person's aura or body? This question is mainly thought out from the scenario
>that a Shedim spirit has taken over a corpse or magician's body and a group
>of magician's will try to locate it through rituals ... Will they locate the
>body or the spirit of the magician searching or it, in case of the shedim
>spirit, nothing at all?

It seems to me that it depends on the type of Material Link you're using.
If it's a tissue sample, then the link leads back to the physical body from
which the tissue sample originally came. Since the tissue sample can be
quite dead, it only needs to contain DNA, then I can see no reason why it
can't link back to a dead body. Bonded foci Material Links, however, are
different - I feel they link to the magician, whether he's in or out of body.

>What are the limitations on spirit commands? A player of mine ordered his
>fire elemental to manifest of burn everything inside the cockpit of an
>attack copter. He couldnt see the inside of the chopper, the chopper flying
>overhead was all he could see. Can he do that, or only tell his elemental to
>attack the chopper?

There aren't any such magician's LOS limits for commanding spirits, just a
requirement for a sufficient description. I only limit commands by a
spirit's understanding and cooperativeness. For complicated or confusing
commands, or if some initiative is required to fulfil a command, I roll the
spirit's Intelligence to see how well the spirit interprets and carries out
the command. As for cooperativeness, I play nature spirits and spirits of
the elements as doing their honest best to interpret their shaman's
intentions (and no more) but elementals as passive-aggressive literalists;
they're bound slaves and not too happy about it. So elementals will obey
their masters' commands to the letter, whatever the consequences may be,
without trying to interpret the intention or spirit of their master's
command. And if a command aligns with an elemental's natural tendencies,
like the fire elemental mentioned above, then I play them as
enthusiastically obeying the command pushing it as far they can go.

Chris
Message no. 5
From: shane@**************.freeserve.co.uk (Shane Mclean)
Subject: A small set of unrelated questions ...
Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 17:01:53 +0100
> What are the limitations on spirit commands? A player of mine ordered
> his fire elemental to manifest of burn everything inside the cockpit of
> an attack copter. He couldnt see the inside of the chopper, the chopper
> flying overhead was all he could see. Can he do that, or only tell his
> elemental to attack the chopper?

WOuld an elemental know what a 'cockpit' is? I could see it understanding
inside, but no matter it's intelligence, does an elemental know
Message no. 6
From: shane@**************.freeserve.co.uk (Shane Mclean)
Subject: A small set of unrelated questions ...
Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 17:04:41 +0100
OOps. Full reply this time...

> What are the limitations on spirit commands? A player of mine ordered
> his fire elemental to manifest of burn everything inside the cockpit of
> an attack copter. He couldnt see the inside of the chopper, the chopper
> flying overhead was all he could see. Can he do that, or only tell his
> elemental to attack the chopper?

Would an elemental know what a 'cockpit' is? I could see it understanding
the term 'inside', but no matter it's intelligence, does an elemental know
that the cockpit is the bit at the front?

Shane
Message no. 7
From: chris@*******.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: A small set of unrelated questions ...
Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 21:28:15 +1000
Records show that at 02:04 AM on Thursday 20/05/2004 AEDT, Shane Mclean
advised:
>Would an elemental know what a 'cockpit' is? I could see it understanding
>the term 'inside', but no matter it's intelligence, does an elemental know
>that the cockpit is the bit at the front?

I assume the intent of the command is being communicated to the spirit
along with the words used. So the concept of "cockpit" is conveyed to the
spirit - as best as the conjurer understands it. As you suggest, though,
this can lead to hilarious and/or deadly mistakes. :-)

Chris
Message no. 8
From: paul@*********.demon.co.uk (Paul Squires)
Subject: A small set of unrelated questions ...
Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 14:41:57 +0100
In message <6.1.0.6.2.20040521210810.0238cd00@****.drypond.com>, Chris
Maxfield <chris@*******.com> writes
>Records show that at 02:04 AM on Thursday 20/05/2004 AEDT, Shane Mclean
>advised:
>>Would an elemental know what a 'cockpit' is? I could see it understanding
>>the term 'inside', but no matter it's intelligence, does an elemental know
>>that the cockpit is the bit at the front?
>
>I assume the intent of the command is being communicated to the spirit
>along with the words used. So the concept of "cockpit" is conveyed to
>the spirit - as best as the conjurer understands it. As you suggest,
>though, this can lead to hilarious and/or deadly mistakes. :-)
>
How are the commands transmitted? Does it specify anywhere whether it's
verbal or mental communication? If it's verbal then I can see how this
confusion could arise, BUT if it's mental/telepathic then the intent
must be the core part of the instruction. After all, what language do
spirits speak?
--
Paul Squires
paul@*********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 9
From: wilson.reis@*****.com (Wilson Reis)
Subject: A small set of unrelated questions ...
Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 12:10:56 -0300
> How are the commands transmitted? Does it specify anywhere whether it's
> verbal or mental communication? If it's verbal then I can see how this
> confusion could arise, BUT if it's mental/telepathic then the intent
> must be the core part of the instruction. After all, what language do
> spirits speak?

AFAIK it´s all mind-talk. At least that´s how i deal with it. And if
you can tell a watcher to find a specific subject just because YOU
know the subject, than the fact that your knowledge about the
definition of cockpit can be somehow transmitted as well seems
reasonable

Regards
Will
PS: Ok, probably you guys don´t remember me, but i´m back after some years.
Message no. 10
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: A small set of unrelated questions ...
Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 19:45:15 +0200
According to Wilson Reis, on Friday 21 May 2004 17:10 the word on the
street was...

> AFAIK it´s all mind-talk. At least that´s how i deal with it. And if
> you can tell a watcher to find a specific subject just because YOU
> know the subject, than the fact that your knowledge about the
> definition of cockpit can be somehow transmitted as well seems
> reasonable

Agreed -- you can speak to the spirit, but IMHO it'll more likely pick up
your meaning through some kind of innate telepathy/brain waves kind of
stuff than via the actual words you use.

> PS: Ok, probably you guys don´t remember me, but i´m back after some
> years.

Weren't you Brazilian?

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: pixelonpicnic@*******.com (Niels Sønderborg)
Subject: A small set of unrelated questions ...
Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 15:12:36 +0200
AFAIK You "show" the watcher a mental image of an aura if you are sending it
out to look for someone, though you can communicate with spirits both
aurally and mentally, or at least in the novels they do ...

_________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 12
From: wilson.reis@*****.com (Wilson Reis)
Subject: A small set of unrelated questions ...
Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 12:51:28 -0300
On Fri, 21 May 2004 19:45:15 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>
> According to Wilson Reis, on Friday 21 May 2004 17:10 the word on the
> street was...
> > PS: Ok, probably you guys don´t remember me, but i´m back after some
> > years.
>
> Weren't you Brazilian?
>

Yep, from Rio, actually. It´s the third or fourth time i subscribe
here, the first one being in 1998, IIRC. I just love the game, but as
i just can´t find people to GM it here, i end up unsubscribing every
time i get tired of GMing.
I was around in the NERPS list as well.

As one would expect, here i am GMing again and it´s time to get
updated with all SR3 material. I bought some of the new books and i´m
still rereading them all in detail. Meanwhile, my players suffer with
rules changing midgame.

I´ve read that now there´s some material printed in german only. Does
anyone here knows if there´s anything worth buying ? My understanding
of the german language is quite poor, but i presume it´s enough for
understanding a rulebook if i have the patience to go through it
several times. (Portuguese 5, English 4, German 2, Spanish 2, for
gaming purposes haha)

Regards
Will
Message no. 13
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: A small set of unrelated questions ...
Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 17:57:19 +0200
> I´ve read that now there´s some material printed in german only. Does
> anyone here knows if there´s anything worth buying ? My understanding
> of the german language is quite poor, but i presume it´s enough for
> understanding a rulebook if i have the patience to go through it
> several times. (Portuguese 5, English 4, German 2, Spanish 2, for
> gaming purposes haha)

Actually, the only SR3 book that's only available in German is
"Deutschland in den Schatten 2", the Germany sourcebook. Unless you
want to set your campaign in Germany, it's useless. However, it's very
impressive. It has a page count higher than the SR3 core rulebook, and
according to one of my GM friends who has it (I haven't read it, my
German is very poor -- 2 at most) it's quite well written.
The German versions of Cannon Companion ("Arsenal 2060" IIRC) and
Rigger 3 also have some additional material (mostly illustrations --
those in Rigger 3 have been included in the reprint/patch of the
English version, Rigger 3 Revised) but nothing worth purchasing them if
you already have the English versions.


-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 14
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: A small set of unrelated questions ...
Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 19:25:09 +0200
According to Wilson Reis, on Saturday 22 May 2004 17:51 the word on the
street was...

> Yep, from Rio, actually.

See? We do remember you :)

> I´ve read that now there´s some material printed in german only. Does
> anyone here knows if there´s anything worth buying ? My understanding
> of the german language is quite poor, but i presume it´s enough for
> understanding a rulebook if i have the patience to go through it
> several times. (Portuguese 5, English 4, German 2, Spanish 2, for
> gaming purposes haha)

Like Wild_Cat said, the only SR3 book that's only available in German is
Deutschland in den Schatten 2, which I've looked at but haven't bought, so
I can't say ifit's worth the money. Other SR books only available in
German were the original Deutschland in den Schatten, which was translated
as the Germany Sourcebook, but without the chapter on Berlin and some
other stuff; Schlagschatten, which is a set of four adventures; Chrom &
Dioxin, that describes areas of Germany that DidS didn't cover in too much
detail, and also Switzerland; Schattenlichter, another book with four
adventures; and Walzer, Punks & schwarzes Ice, which is about Austria,
Berlin, economics, and a few other subjects by the look of it -- it's
apparently a pretty poor book, but as I've never had the courage to
actually start reading it, I can't really say whether that's true :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: wilson.reis@*****.com (Wilson Reis)
Subject: A small set of unrelated questions ...
Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 15:05:09 -0300
On Sat, 22 May 2004 19:25:09 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>
> According to Wilson Reis, on Saturday 22 May 2004 17:51 the word on the
> street was...
>
> > Yep, from Rio, actually.
>
> See? We do remember you :)

I´m glad, somehow. I do remember you as well, but that´s an
understatement, as even some of my players, who never ventured in rpg
lists or forums, have already heard of gurth :-)

>
> > I´ve read that now there´s some material printed in german only. Does
> > anyone here knows if there´s anything worth buying ?

>
> Like Wild_Cat said, the only SR3 book that's only available in German is
> Deutschland in den Schatten 2, which I've looked at but haven't bought, so
> I can't say ifit's worth the money. (snip snip)

Thanks for the info. I think i will stick to the basics here. It´s
expensive enough to get the books in english and i presume that
ordering the ones in german just for the sake of curiosity might be a
waste of resources that could be otherwise spent in pizza or extra MP
for my poor computer.
Message no. 16
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: A small set of unrelated questions ...
Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 11:32:50 +0200
According to Wilson Reis, on Saturday 22 May 2004 20:05 the word on the
street was...

> I´m glad, somehow. I do remember you as well, but that´s an
> understatement, as even some of my players, who never ventured in rpg
> lists or forums, have already heard of gurth :-)

Aha, it looks like my plot for world domination has already advanced even
further than I had planned... ;)

> Thanks for the info. I think i will stick to the basics here. It´s
> expensive enough to get the books in english and i presume that
> ordering the ones in german just for the sake of curiosity might be a
> waste of resources that could be otherwise spent in pizza or extra MP
> for my poor computer.

Probably true, especially if you're never going to send your runners to
that part of the world -- and even if you do, the upcoming Shadows of
Europe should provide enough information for one-off runs. If you wanted
to set a whole campaign in Germany, it'd be different, of course.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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