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Message no. 1
From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Assault canon in RL
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:32:04 +0200
Does anyone on the list know on which weapon is based the assault
canon ?

I thought this could be the 30mm ASP but if so, it should be capable
of autofire and should also weight more (50 Kg instead of 20),
without counting the fact that it should have a radius of effect...

If you think of another weapon, please give me some details (caliber,
weight, modes and cyclic rate of fire, min and max range and
penetration).


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Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:32:54 +0100
Cobra said on 12:32/29 Jul 98,...

> Does anyone on the list know on which weapon is based the assault
> canon ?

It's not based on any RL weapon I can remember.

> I thought this could be the 30mm ASP but if so, it should be capable
> of autofire and should also weight more (50 Kg instead of 20),
> without counting the fact that it should have a radius of effect...

Not necessarily -- you could fire target practice (TP) rounds from
the ASP and only cause damage to anything you actually hit.
OTOH the assault cannon is mentioned as firing explosive
rounds...

> If you think of another weapon, please give me some details (caliber,
> weight, modes and cyclic rate of fire, min and max range and
> penetration).

I tried constructing an assault cannon for SR using 3G3 and my
own 3G3 -> SR conversion rules. What I found out is that it's
very hard, if not nearly impossible, to make it work...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hanging on to letting go.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: Machine-gun Kelly <MgkellyMP5@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:52:35 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-29 06:25:58 EDT, you write:

> Does anyone on the list know on which weapon is based the assault
> canon ?
>
> I thought this could be the 30mm ASP but if so, it should be capable
> of autofire and should also weight more (50 Kg instead of 20),
> without counting the fact that it should have a radius of effect...

I'm not really sure, but I think that they may have based it on the Cobra
Assault Cannon from the movie 'Robocop' (which was actually a Barrett Light
Fifty sniper rifle).
Personally, I think an Assault Cannon would be about 20mm (Ever seen a 30mm
round? It's literally the size of a milk bottle). Obviously, the recoil of a
20 mil would be pretty vicious, so it would only be a single shot (in SR
rules. IRL, it would equate to semi-automatic, even though I doubt anyone
would have the strength to fire rounds quickly).

Twenty-millimeter is used on a lot of aircraft cannons, so they're basically a
big explosive bullet. Which doesn't actually explode, but causes an impressive
fragmentation of the bullet. OTOH, the Assault Cannon round in SR is described
as being a superplast explosive, which I would take as meaning there would be
an area of effect, but probably not as much as a grenade (grenades might have
the same amount of explosive material, but they also have a heavier, thicker
casing to turn into shrapnel). But I don't recall them being listed on the
fragmentation charts in SR2. IIRC, the Assault Cannon rounds are also armor-
piercing.

Mgkelly---------(" Gunbunny Supreme") [Yes, that's an honorific title that I
gave myself.Dispute it as you will.]
Message no. 4
From: David Blank <GreyDave@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:23:00 EDT
It's a low velocity round using a squash head. The high damage comes from the
fact that the squash head makes it armor piercing (I don't think it is
officially but if does explain the high damage code). Maybe they will explain
it more in SR3.
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:22:20 +0100
Machine-gun Kelly said on 17:52/29 Jul 98,...

> I'm not really sure, but I think that they may have based it on the Cobra
> Assault Cannon from the movie 'Robocop' (which was actually a Barrett Light
> Fifty sniper rifle).
> Personally, I think an Assault Cannon would be about 20mm

I see them as some kind of 20 to 30 mm low-pressure round to
keep recoil manageable.

> (Ever seen a 30mm
> round? It's literally the size of a milk bottle).

I've got a few 30 mm cartridge cases on a shelf behind me, and
I'd say you have small milk bottles where you are if that's true...

> Obviously, the recoil of a 20 mil would be pretty vicious

That's why think of them as low-pressure -- much lower than that
of 20 mm autocannon rounds, anyway, probably coupled to some
kind of long recoil absorption system (hydraulic maybe), which
would account for the slow rate of fire, as the recoil system would
have to return to the forward position before a second shot can be
fired.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hanging on to letting go.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: Wolfchild <nathan.olsen@*******.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:40:34 -0500
On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Gurth wrote:

> Cobra said on 12:32/29 Jul 98,...
>
> > Does anyone on the list know on which weapon is based the assault
> > canon ?
>
> It's not based on any RL weapon I can remember.
[snip]
> Not necessarily -- you could fire target practice (TP) rounds from
> the ASP and only cause damage to anything you actually hit.
> OTOH the assault cannon is mentioned as firing explosive
> rounds...

our group pretty much considered it a form of bazooka, with less
explosiveness and more armor piercing. take that as you will.

Wolfchild
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Message no. 7
From: Danyel N Woods <9604801@********.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:03:57 +1200
Quoth Gurth (2322 30-7-98 NZT):

<<SLICE>>
>> (Ever seen a 30mm
>> round? It's literally the size of a milk bottle).
>
>I've got a few 30 mm cartridge cases on a shelf behind me, and
>I'd say you have small milk bottles where you are if that's true...

I think MGKelly's referring to those 30x173mm beasts that the GAU-8
fires, and made the assumption that _all_ 30-mil is like that. I take
it that your souvenired brass is from an AFV cannon, not an airborne
monster like the Avenger?

>> Obviously, the recoil of a 20 mil would be pretty vicious
>
>That's why think of them as low-pressure -- much lower than that
>of 20 mm autocannon rounds, anyway, probably coupled to some
>kind of long recoil absorption system (hydraulic maybe), which
>would account for the slow rate of fire, as the recoil system would
>have to return to the forward position before a second shot can be
>fired.

...Hmm. Yeah, I'll buy that. I'd always wondered why assault cannons
weren't semi-auto (remembering the factory sequence in _Robocop_), other
than game balance and sanity; now I can give a good in-character
explanation, too. Cool.

Danyel Woods - 9604801@********.ac.nz
'No, I'm Chaos and he's Mayhem. We're a double act.'
Message no. 8
From: Waffelmaisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 03:05:07 -0500
> Re: Assault canon in RL (David Blank , 0:23)
>
> It's a low velocity round using a squash head. The high damage comes from the
> fact that the squash head makes it armor piercing (I don't think it is
> officially but if does explain the high damage code). Maybe they will explain
> it more in SR3.

Low velocity my ass- check the range on that thing, it puts a sniper
rifle to shame. The high damage comes from a big slug ripping through
you. The "squas hhead" I could buy- it would result in a nice kinetic
transfer, and at that velocity, decrease performance on soft armor
negligably. They would function as explosive bullets, making it poor
against some hard tagets, but likey to make big holes in most property.

Mongoose
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:15:01 +0100
Danyel N Woods said on 11:03/31 Jul 98,...

> I think MGKelly's referring to those 30x173mm beasts that the GAU-8
> fires, and made the assumption that _all_ 30-mil is like that. I take
> it that your souvenired brass is from an AFV cannon, not an airborne
> monster like the Avenger?

One 30x173 mm and one 30x113 mm ADEN/DEFA (that's without
the target practice projectile that some idiot glued to the casing).
30x173 mm isn't all that big, really -- imagine about the
diameter of a toilet roll center, but 17 cm long. Even a 40 mm
Bofors case isn't very big.

Oh, and the 30x173 mm is souvenir aluminium, not brass :)

[assault cannon is single shot because of recoil system]
> ...Hmm. Yeah, I'll buy that. I'd always wondered why assault cannons
> weren't semi-auto (remembering the factory sequence in _Robocop_), other
> than game balance and sanity; now I can give a good in-character
> explanation, too. Cool.

I keep amazing myself by doing exactly what I criticize Trekkies
for... :/

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's pretty scary.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:06:46 -0700
Not necessarily. Almost all rifle bullets drop to subsonic at 900 yards,
regardless of their muzzle velocity. Sectional density (mass per unit area)
and aerodynamics figure prominently in range after that point.

Plus, there's the item that there's no way for even a vaguely humanoid
frame to withstand the recoil generated by a full-power 30 mm cannon like
the GAU-8 used in the A-10, which *is* high velocity. Plane staggers in
mid-air when that puppy fires ...

At the ranges listed in SR for the assault cannon, I'd almost consider it
indirect fire myself, rather like a grenade launcher.

>> Re: Assault canon in RL (David Blank , 0:23)
>>
>> It's a low velocity round using a squash head. The high damage comes
>>from the
>> fact that the squash head makes it armor piercing (I don't think it is
>> officially but if does explain the high damage code). Maybe they will
>>explain
>> it more in SR3.
>
> Low velocity my ass- check the range on that thing, it puts a sniper
>rifle to shame. The high damage comes from a big slug ripping through
>you. The "squas hhead" I could buy- it would result in a nice kinetic
>transfer, and at that velocity, decrease performance on soft armor
>negligably. They would function as explosive bullets, making it poor
>against some hard tagets, but likey to make big holes in most property.
>
>Mongoose


************************
* Adam Getchell
* Human Resources Information Systems
* acgetchell@*******.edu
* http://hr.ucdavis.edu/
* (530)752-1584 FAX (530)752-1289
***********************
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 11
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:46:45 EDT
I was also readin something about a recoilless rifle (man-portable), though I
shall leave it to others to describe, since I am unsure of specifics.
Message no. 12
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:04:04 -0700
At 8:46 PM -0400 7/31/98, Michael vanHulst wrote:
> I was also readin something about a recoilless rifle (man-portable), though I
>shall leave it to others to describe, since I am unsure of specifics.

The assault cannon concept is not recoilless.

Man portable recoilless rifles (such as those used in the Korean war, or
the Carl Gustav) are in the 75 - 90 mm range, take a crew of 2-4, and fire
low velocity projectiles with a great deal of backblast and noise. They're
also not that accurate, and rely on shaped charges (HEAP) or high
explosives to do the job. Modern armors do a good job of defeating HEAP
ammunition.

They were mostly supplanted by modern seeking munitions such as TOW,
Dragon, Milan, et al, by rocket launchers and rocket-propelled grenades.

It's possible that a properly designed gauss or electrothermal rifle will
have acceptable light armor piercing capabilities ...

I don't think any of my players are on this list ...

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 13
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:30:56 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-31 21:04:17 EDT, you write:

> The assault cannon concept is not recoilless.


there is no recoil modifire, true? It could go either way
>
> Man portable recoilless rifles (such as those used in the Korean war, or
> the Carl Gustav) are in the 75 - 90 mm range, take a crew of 2-4, and fire
> low velocity projectiles with a great deal of backblast and noise. They're
> also not that accurate, and rely on shaped charges (HEAP) or high
> explosives to do the job. Modern armors do a good job of defeating HEAP
> ammunition.
the one I saw mentioned was a lot lighter of a round 40mm I think, though I
will look it up to make sure. It was 1 man portable.
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 11:57:16 +0100
Michael vanHulst said on 20:46/31 Jul 98,...

> I was also readin something about a recoilless rifle (man-portable), though I
> shall leave it to others to describe, since I am unsure of specifics.

Recoilless rifles have been used since before WWII, but the
biggest drawback are that they're single-shot weapons and have
a huge backblast (don't stand behind one when it's loaded, let
alone will soon be fired).

As SR's assault cannons are magazine-fed weapons and don't
have a backblast (I'm sure that would have been mentioned as
it's kinda important when firing one indoors), I don't think they
are recoilless rifles.

However, Mauser I believe has built a couple of prototypes of a
belt-fed, recoilless 30 mm cannon for the Bundeswehr, intended
as armament for helicopters and light vehicles. If this proves a
success I could see it being applied to similar but lighter weapons
for use by individual soldiers.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Money, tickets, passports! Money, tickets, passports!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:49:42 -0400
> Recoilless rifles have been used since before WWII, but the
> biggest drawback are that they're single-shot weapons and have
> a huge backblast (don't stand behind one when it's loaded, let
> alone will soon be fired).
>
Single shot? I assume you are talking about this in
terms of load a shell, fire, load another shell. As opposed to a clip.
They aren't like a LAW. (Then I assume you know this but I just thought
I would clarify)

> As SR's assault cannons are magazine-fed weapons and don't
> have a backblast (I'm sure that would have been mentioned as
> it's kinda important when firing one indoors), I don't think they
> are recoilless rifles.
>
> However, Mauser I believe has built a couple of prototypes of a
> belt-fed, recoilless 30 mm cannon for the Bundeswehr, intended
> as armament for helicopters and light vehicles. If this proves a
> success I could see it being applied to similar but lighter weapons
> for use by individual soldiers.
>
You could create a porting system to replicate a
recoilless rifle concept. If you had lots of small holes (rather than
the 3 large holes on the rear of most recoilless rifles). This would
make it imperative to hold it properly when firing.
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:02:21 +0100
bryan.covington@****.COM said on 15:49/3 Aug 98,...

> Single shot? I assume you are talking about this in
> terms of load a shell, fire, load another shell. As opposed to a clip.

With single-shot weapon I meant one that holds only one round,
and can therefore only be fired once before it must be loaded.

> They aren't like a LAW. (Then I assume you know this but I just thought
> I would clarify)

Those I would call disposable weapons -- fire until empty (usually
one shot), then chuck away.

> You could create a porting system to replicate a
> recoilless rifle concept. If you had lots of small holes (rather than
> the 3 large holes on the rear of most recoilless rifles). This would
> make it imperative to hold it properly when firing.

I don't quite understand what you're getting at here.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Money, tickets, passports! Money, tickets, passports!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:07:24 -0400
> > Single shot? I assume you are talking about this in
> > terms of load a shell, fire, load another shell. As opposed to a
> clip.
>
> With single-shot weapon I meant one that holds only one round,
> and can therefore only be fired once before it must be loaded.
>
I figured.

> > They aren't like a LAW. (Then I assume you know this but I just
> thought
> > I would clarify)
>
> Those I would call disposable weapons -- fire until empty (usually
> one shot), then chuck away.
>
Cool.

> > You could create a porting system to replicate a
> > recoilless rifle concept. If you had lots of small holes (rather
> than
> > the 3 large holes on the rear of most recoilless rifles). This would
> > make it imperative to hold it properly when firing.
>
> I don't quite understand what you're getting at here.
>
Ever seen the barrel of a paintball gun? Kinda like
that. I'll assume you haven't even if you have and try to explain.
The breech of a recoilless rifle has 3 large holes in
the back which release the backblast in one massive firestorm. I'm
suggesting using lots of smaller holes to release the pressure without
the flame-thrower effect.
Rings of holes around the barrel. Probably angled in
bore in one direction or another to disperse the pressure. So you get
100 little flashes instead of one monster one.
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 19:59:50 +0100
bryan.covington@****.COM said on 10:07/4 Aug 98,...

> > I don't quite understand what you're getting at here.
> >
> Ever seen the barrel of a paintball gun? Kinda like
> that. I'll assume you haven't even if you have and try to explain.

Good, because I haven't seen paintball guns up close. I'd love to
play it someday, though.

> The breech of a recoilless rifle has 3 large holes in
> the back which release the backblast in one massive firestorm. I'm
> suggesting using lots of smaller holes to release the pressure without
> the flame-thrower effect.
> Rings of holes around the barrel. Probably angled in
> bore in one direction or another to disperse the pressure. So you get
> 100 little flashes instead of one monster one.

I think I understand -- the holes aren't all at the back, but along
the whole barrel, so the propellant bleeds from them as the round
passes each ring of holes. Right?

I can see some problems with this solution... First of all the fact
that the shooter can be injured by the propellant. That can be
avoided by careful design and good training, but it's a limiting
factor.

Also, the barrel would need to be strong to withstand the stresses
of the propellant; current recoilless rifles can have thin,
lightweight barrels because most of the propellant isn't going to
put stress on the barrel, but with your idea the closer you get to
the breech end of the gun, the stronger the barrel would have to
be, and thus it would weigh more than a traditional type of
recoilless weapon.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Money, tickets, passports! Money, tickets, passports!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: Daryl Williams <enwill@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:14:57 -0700
---Gurth <gurth@******.NL> wrote:
> I think I understand -- the holes aren't all at the back, but along
> the whole barrel, so the propellant bleeds from them as the round
> passes each ring of holes. Right?

Thats right.. just like the .50cal HMG that they used back in
WWII on up to heh..present day, the barrel is dotted with exhaust
ports. You should know what I am talking about, if you have ever seen
any war movies.

>
> I can see some problems with this solution... First of all the fact
> that the shooter can be injured by the propellant. That can be
> avoided by careful design and good training, but it's a limiting
> factor.

That isn't too hard of a fix..you just need to angle the holes
forward towards the end of the barrel so that all the propellant is
expelled forward away from the shooter. The biggest problem would be
in the shooter getting flash blinded..so some protective gear would be
nessaccery.

> Also, the barrel would need to be strong to withstand the stresses
> of the propellant; current recoilless rifles can have thin,
> lightweight barrels because most of the propellant isn't going to
> put stress on the barrel, but with your idea the closer you get to
> the breech end of the gun, the stronger the barrel would have to
> be, and thus it would weigh more than a traditional type of
> recoilless weapon.

To take care of this, you balance to exhaust ports only in the
middle of the barrel..leaving a couple inchs at both ends of the
barrel solid, so that you can cut down on the weight of it, keeping it
down to a managable weight.

Mr. Smith

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Message no. 20
From: John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:42:02 -0500
> To take care of this, you balance to exhaust ports only in the
>middle of the barrel..leaving a couple inchs at both ends of the
>barrel solid, so that you can cut down on the weight of it, keeping it
>down to a managable weight.

Ever seen a recoiless rifle? They dont use them anymore. Not as strong as a
rocket. Not as practical as an assault rifle.

That and WWI era anti-tank rifles.

-Teeg
Message no. 21
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:46:37 -0400
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL

> > > You could create a porting system to replicate a
> > > recoilless rifle concept. If you had lots of small holes (rather
> > than
> > > the 3 large holes on the rear of most recoilless rifles). This would
> > > make it imperative to hold it properly when firing.
> >
> > I don't quite understand what you're getting at here.
> >
> Ever seen the barrel of a paintball gun? Kinda like
> that. I'll assume you haven't even if you have and try to explain.
> The breech of a recoilless rifle has 3 large holes in
> the back which release the backblast in one massive firestorm. I'm
> suggesting using lots of smaller holes to release the pressure without
> the flame-thrower effect.
> Rings of holes around the barrel. Probably angled in
> bore in one direction or another to disperse the pressure. So you get
> 100 little flashes instead of one monster one.

Having fired recoiless rifles, I just have one question. Where do
you expect the firer to be??? There's a reason that the back end of
the RR is open (only 3 holes cause you need a firing pin back
there.) And theres a reason why you don't stand behind one when
it fires.


--Droopy
Message no. 22
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:47:59 -0400
> > I think I understand -- the holes aren't all at the back, but along
> > the whole barrel, so the propellant bleeds from them as the round
> > passes each ring of holes. Right?
>
> Thats right.. just like the .50cal HMG that they used back in
> WWII on up to heh..present day, the barrel is dotted with exhaust
> ports. You should know what I am talking about, if you have ever seen
> any war movies.
>
Dude, thats a cooling shroud. The barrel is solid.
Message no. 23
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:43:35 -0400
At 10:07 AM 8/4/98 -0400, you wrote:

> Ever seen the barrel of a paintball gun? Kinda like
>that. I'll assume you haven't even if you have and try to explain.
> The breech of a recoilless rifle has 3 large holes in
>the back which release the backblast in one massive firestorm. I'm
>suggesting using lots of smaller holes to release the pressure without
>the flame-thrower effect.
> Rings of holes around the barrel. Probably angled in
>bore in one direction or another to disperse the pressure. So you get
>100 little flashes instead of one monster one.

Careful about using paintball barrels as analogies to real firearms, of any
sort. The fact that a non-explosive gas propellant is used to fire a
liquid/gelatinous sphere throws most firearms ballistics right out the
window. Doesn't throw physics out the window, obviously, but the fact
you're projectile *isn't* solid and is almost guaranteed to deform in
flight complicates matters a whole bunch.

And there's a fair amount of controversy as to how much porting and what
style is effective. One company (All American actually) claims that by
doing spiral porting it creates a rifling affect that increases accuracy;
may be true, but it also allows gas to escape the barrel early, decreasing
velocity and therefor range. Some go for more porting, some go for
minimal, straight porting. About the only sure thing you can say about
porting is that it quiets the gun's report down. Muzzle brakes don't do a
damn but look cool. You also have to deal with what the barrel is made of
(aluminum, stainless steel, carbon fiber) and how it's finished
(microhoned, polished, ceramic) AND match your paint to your barrel.
Supposedly the caliber is .68, but no paintball or barrel matches that
perfectly, so you end up with certain paintballs "fitting" or
"matching"
certain barrels better. And to top it all off, you've got the length of
the barrel to contend with; most folks say that 12" to 14" is ideal, but 8"
and as long as 18" barrels exist and have their proponents. As a point of
interest, I use a DYE 12" stainless steel barrel with straight porting.

I don't know enough about ballistics and firearms to say yea or nay
regarding your concept of a "ported" recoiless rifle, though the general
idea strikes me as having potential; it could possibly reduce general
recoil and flash. It seems to have some concepts in common more with gas
ported recoil compensation than anything else. I would just be very
careful regarding linking paintball ballistics with firearms ballistics.

Erik J.



http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 24
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:52:20 -0400
> > > I don't quite understand what you're getting at here.
> > >
> > Ever seen the barrel of a paintball gun? Kinda like
> > that. I'll assume you haven't even if you have and try to explain.
>
> Good, because I haven't seen paintball guns up close. I'd love to
> play it someday, though.
>
Its a *&$#ing blast!!

> > The breech of a recoilless rifle has 3 large holes
> in
> > the back which release the backblast in one massive firestorm. I'm
> > suggesting using lots of smaller holes to release the pressure
> without
> > the flame-thrower effect.
> > Rings of holes around the barrel. Probably angled in
> > bore in one direction or another to disperse the pressure. So you
> get
> > 100 little flashes instead of one monster one.
>
> I think I understand -- the holes aren't all at the back, but along
> the whole barrel, so the propellant bleeds from them as the round
> passes each ring of holes. Right?
>
Well maybe. I'm kinda looking to you with a
collaborative intent. I was picturing most of them in the back but more
further up the barrel.

> I can see some problems with this solution... First of all the fact
> that the shooter can be injured by the propellant. That can be
> avoided by careful design and good training, but it's a limiting
> factor.
>
I was also thinking of the gun being held by essentially
the center of the weapon with the actual firing chamber behind the user.
(Think 40k Terminator autocannon if that helps.)

> Also, the barrel would need to be strong to withstand the stresses
> of the propellant; current recoilless rifles can have thin,
> lightweight barrels because most of the propellant isn't going to
> put stress on the barrel, but with your idea the closer you get to
> the breech end of the gun, the stronger the barrel would have to
> be, and thus it would weigh more than a traditional type of
> recoilless weapon.
>
True but it's firing smaller shells. In this case we may
have to hope or assume that there are stronger/lighter materials in
2060.
Message no. 25
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:56:36 -0400
<snip massive paintball comments>

> I don't know enough about ballistics and firearms to say yea or nay
> regarding your concept of a "ported" recoiless rifle, though the
> general
> idea strikes me as having potential; it could possibly reduce general
> recoil and flash. It seems to have some concepts in common more with
> gas
> ported recoil compensation than anything else. I would just be very
> careful regarding linking paintball ballistics with firearms
> ballistics.
>
Um, I wasn't.

I was using the porting of the paintball barrels as an
example of the type of holes I was talking about. I wasn't saying that
they would react in the same way or that paintball had anything even
remotely in common with firearms at all.
I was just saying that paintball gun barrels have holes
in them SIMILAR to the ones I was describing. That's it.
Message no. 26
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:07:36 -0500
On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Daryl Williams wrote:

> That isn't too hard of a fix..you just need to angle the holes
> forward towards the end of the barrel so that all the propellant is
> expelled forward away from the shooter. The biggest problem would be
> in the shooter getting flash blinded..so some protective gear would be
> nessaccery.

Well if you have exaust ports sending the propellant gasses FORWARD to
miss the shooter you will just end up with a gun with heavier recoil than
one with no ports at all. The reason a RR has those ports at the rear is
to GET that jet of gas shooting out the back. The momentum of the gas jet
ballences that of the projectil going out the other end. If they are both
aimed forward you get X+X=2X not X-X=0.

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com
Message no. 27
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:08:09 -0400
At 07:59 PM 8/4/98 +0100, you wrote:
>bryan.covington@****.COM said on 10:07/4 Aug 98,...
>
>> > I don't quite understand what you're getting at here.
>> >
>> Ever seen the barrel of a paintball gun? Kinda like
>> that. I'll assume you haven't even if you have and try to explain.
>
>Good, because I haven't seen paintball guns up close. I'd love to
>play it someday, though.

You know Gurth, there are actually quite a few paintball fields in England
and in Europe. Some of the European teams are really quite good, and the
best paintball magazine available is actually a British pub, called
Paintball Games International. They list a lot of UK fields. And every
year a pretty major (for the Europeans anyway) tournament is held in
France, right about this time.

If you want to play, you should be able to do so, right in your own side of
the pond. As Bryan said, it's a blast, an insane adrenalin rush.
Considering your interest in things military, you really oughta go for it
sometime.

And of course, if you ever make it to LA, I'll hook you up.

Erik J.



http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 28
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:32:57 -0400
At 02:56 PM 8/4/98 -0400, you wrote:

> I was using the porting of the paintball barrels as an
>example of the type of holes I was talking about. I wasn't saying that
>they would react in the same way or that paintball had anything even
>remotely in common with firearms at all.
> I was just saying that paintball gun barrels have holes
>in them SIMILAR to the ones I was describing. That's it.

Okay, I suspected as much. But considering some of the conversations I've
seen on Warpig's message boards, I thought I had better make 100% sure,
since it's seemingly a very common mistake to link PB and firearms
ballistics/concepts, which isn't a very good thing to do most of the time.

Cool deal then.

Didn't know you played; very cool. IF you are new to the sport (don't
know) or if you are looking for another opinion on a gun or accessory, feel
free to ask. I keep up with Warpig and the local PB shops know me by face
if not by name, so I hear a lot of gossip and news, some of which may be of
interest to you.

Erik J.



http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 29
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:08:16 EDT
In a message dated 8/4/98 2:52:20 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
mmanhardt@*****.NET writes:

> > Ever seen the barrel of a paintball gun? Kinda like
> > that. I'll assume you haven't even if you have and try to explain.
> > The breech of a recoilless rifle has 3 large holes in
> > the back which release the backblast in one massive firestorm. I'm
> > suggesting using lots of smaller holes to release the pressure without
> > the flame-thrower effect.
> > Rings of holes around the barrel. Probably angled in
> > bore in one direction or another to disperse the pressure. So you get
> > 100 little flashes instead of one monster one.
>
> Having fired recoiless rifles, I just have one question. Where do
> you expect the firer to be??? There's a reason that the back end of
> the RR is open (only 3 holes cause you need a firing pin back
> there.) And theres a reason why you don't stand behind one when
> it fires.

I know this has absolutely nothing to do with this particular posting ... but
has anyone considered that an Assault Cannon could be a man-portable mortar
that can be fired from the hip so to speak ?

This would help explain somewhat the recoil that is involved in firing a PAC
or something similar.

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 30
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:10:25 -0400
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Assault canon in RL

> I know this has absolutely nothing to do with this particular posting ... but
> has anyone considered that an Assault Cannon could be a man-portable mortar
> that can be fired from the hip so to speak ?

Morters are like 60-80mm. Quite a bit larger than an assault
cannon would be. A grenade launcher fires a round approx 40mm.


--Droopy

Further Reading

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