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Message no. 1
From: Ed equine@******.net
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 21:38:31 -0600
To anyone reading this that is playing in my game online....do not go any
further.

g
o

o
n

d
o
w
n

i
f

y
o
u

d
a
r
e
!

Ok...if a mage goes astral what kind of test should I make that he sees
some folks way up on 10-15 story buildings? They are stealthy sniper like
guys who are staying down and being very still. Would he see their glowing
persona? I guess I could just lie and say he did not notice them...but I
hate being a liar.

Ed


_________________________________________________________________
"The Green Machine"| Ed Mayhall | TEL Undisclosed
'94 ....__ Neon | PO BOX 703804 | EMAIL:equine@******.net
GEO |_|_|\_\ Green | Dallas, Tx 75370 |
Tracker[_\_|__|_d=d | USA |
_______(0))__(0))'___ | URL: http://www.terravirtua.com/ed/
Message no. 2
From: Iridios iridios@*********.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:41:56 -0500
Ed wrote:
>
> To anyone reading this that is playing in my game online....do not go any
> further.
>
> g
> o
>
> o
> n
>
> d
> o
> w
> n
>
> i
> f
>
> y
> o
> u
>
> d
> a
> r
> e
> !
>
> Ok...if a mage goes astral what kind of test should I make that he sees
> some folks way up on 10-15 story buildings? They are stealthy sniper like
> guys who are staying down and being very still. Would he see their glowing
> persona? I guess I could just lie and say he did not notice them...but I
> hate being a liar.

I wouldn't call you a liar. If the mage isn't actively looking for
these guys, he most likely will never see them. If the mage *is*
looking for the snipers, but staying a good distance away, then I
would apply cover and distance modifiers (are there any distance
modifiers for perception tests?) to a normal astral perception test.
Remember, astral perception (even in during full projection) does not
allow a mage to see through a solid wall, although nothing would stop
him from poking his head through a wall or two while looking.

--
"My fellow Americans,
I'm pleased to tell you today, that I've signed legislation that
will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes"
-Ronald Reagan

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
ICQ UIN:6629224
The ShadowZone is down for Revision
Please email me with Zone Notification as subject to be
notified when it reopens.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489
Message no. 3
From: Ed equine@******.net
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 21:57:13 -0600
At 10:41 PM 3/28/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> To anyone reading this that is playing in my game online....do not go any
>> further.
>>
>> g
>> o
>>
>> o
>> n
>>
>> d
>> o
>> w
>> n
>>
>> i
>> f
>>
>> y
>> o
>> u
>>
>> d
>> a
>> r
>> e
>> !
>>
>I wouldn't call you a liar. If the mage isn't actively looking for
>these guys, he most likely will never see them. If the mage *is*
>looking for the snipers, but staying a good distance away, then I
>would apply cover and distance modifiers (are there any distance
>modifiers for perception tests?) to a normal astral perception test.
>Remember, astral perception (even in during full projection) does not
>allow a mage to see through a solid wall, although nothing would stop
>him from poking his head through a wall or two while looking.

Well the buildings are right next to the building the runners are in. I
did not think that the walls would be solid...duh. I figured they were
translucent when in astral so he could see through them. He did not
mention walking through the walls so I will just assume he wanted to keep
an eye on the astral presence of the building they are in. Thanks.

Ed
_________________________________________________________________
"The Green Machine"| Ed Mayhall | TEL Undisclosed
'94 ....__ Neon | PO BOX 703804 | EMAIL:equine@******.net
GEO |_|_|\_\ Green | Dallas, Tx 75370 |
Tracker[_\_|__|_d=d | USA |
_______(0))__(0))'___ | URL: http://www.terravirtua.com/ed/
Message no. 4
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 23:44:13 EST
In a message dated 3/28/99 10:30:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
equine@******.net writes:

C
O
U
R
T
E
S
Y

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E


> Ok...if a mage goes astral what kind of test should I make that he sees
> some folks way up on 10-15 story buildings? They are stealthy sniper like
> guys who are staying down and being very still. Would he see their glowing
> persona? I guess I could just lie and say he did not notice them...but I
> hate being a liar.
>
> Ed

Just make a GM-screen-hidden perception check, maybe (if they are on the roof,
and not indoors) with a -1TN bonus, against the snipers' successes in stealth
(they ARE hiding after all). That should be reasonably fair ... and they'd
notice the aura, not necessarily the guns. :-)

Sean
GM Pax
gmpax@***.com
ICQ 18582108
Message no. 5
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:36:10 -0600
On Sun, 28 Mar 1999 21:57:13 -0600 Ed <equine@******.net> writes:
>At 10:41 PM 3/28/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>> To anyone reading this that is playing in my game online....do not go
any
>>> further.
>>>
>>> g
>>> o
>>>
>>> o
>>> n
>>>
>>> d
>>> o
>>> w
>>> n
>>>
>>> i
>>> f
>>>
>>> y
>>> o
>>> u
>>>
>>> d
>>> a
>>> r
>>> e
>>> !
>>>
>>I wouldn't call you a liar. If the mage isn't actively looking for
>>these guys, he most likely will never see them. If the mage *is*
>>looking for the snipers, but staying a good distance away, then I
>>would apply cover and distance modifiers (are there any distance
>>modifiers for perception tests?)

There are distance mods for sound but no cover or distance mods for
sight. I would apply normal cover mods plus if the object is "far away"
(GM's Descretion [sp?]), apply the Very small object mod.

>>to a normal astral perception test.
>>Remember, astral perception (even in during full projection) does not
>>allow a mage to see through a solid wall, although nothing would stop
>>him from poking his head through a wall or two while looking.

Well, a ward might. :)

>Well the buildings are right next to the building the runners are in. I
>did not think that the walls would be solid...duh. I figured they were
>translucent when in astral so he could see through them.

Nope... General rule of thumb: If you can't see through it in real space,
you can't see through it in astral space.

>He did not
>mention walking through the walls so I will just assume he wanted to
keep
>an eye on the astral presence of the building they are in. Thanks.

I would say the difficulty is about the same as trying to spot him
normally. The only difference is that different visual modifers due to
light might apply. If the runners spotting him would ruin everything,
don't let them spot him.

--
D. Ghost
Actual Product--KGro Hose Mender:
Use sharp knife to remove damaged hose section or coupling. Hot soapy
water will soften hose and lubricate end of mender. Fully insert end of
mender into hose. Slip clamp over hose and tighten screws evenly.

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 6
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 23:55:10 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Ed <equine@******.net>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: Astral Assensing (different question)


>At 10:41 PM 3/28/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>> To anyone reading this that is playing in my game online....do not
go any
>>> further.
>>>
>>> g
>>> o
>>>
>>> o
>>> n
>>>
>>> d
>>> o
>>> w
>>> n
>>>
>>> i
>>> f
>>>
>>> y
>>> o
>>> u
>>>
>>> d
>>> a
>>> r
>>> e
>>> !
>>>
>>I wouldn't call you a liar. If the mage isn't actively looking for
>>these guys, he most likely will never see them. If the mage *is*
>>looking for the snipers, but staying a good distance away, then I
>>would apply cover and distance modifiers (are there any distance
>>modifiers for perception tests?) to a normal astral perception test.
>>Remember, astral perception (even in during full projection) does
not
>>allow a mage to see through a solid wall, although nothing would
stop
>>him from poking his head through a wall or two while looking.
>
>Well the buildings are right next to the building the runners are in.
I
>did not think that the walls would be solid...duh. I figured they
were
>translucent when in astral so he could see through them. He did not
>mention walking through the walls so I will just assume he wanted to
keep
>an eye on the astral presence of the building they are in. Thanks.


Actually, all types of walls show up as opaque in astral space,
regardless of the material used to create them. But if the mage is
looking for snipers, it depends on their astral signature. If they're
physical adepts, give them that power that hides them from assensing.
If they're mundanes, pile them up with so much cyber that they don't
have much essence left (and not much astral presence, either).
Message no. 7
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 00:59:01 -0500
> -SNIP stuff about the reason for this question-
>
> >Well the buildings are right next to the building the runners are in. I
> >did not think that the walls would be solid...duh. I figured they were
> >translucent when in astral so he could see through them.
>
> Nope... General rule of thumb: If you can't see through it in real space,
> you can't see through it in astral space.
>
> >He did not
> >mention walking through the walls so I will just assume he wanted to
> keep
> >an eye on the astral presence of the building they are in. Thanks.
>
> I would say the difficulty is about the same as trying to spot him
> normally. The only difference is that different visual modifers due to
> light might apply. If the runners spotting him would ruin everything,
> don't let them spot him.

So, how would he see any astral presence in the building without entering?
He'd have to walk around in the building in order to see anything astral;
unless the astral energy could show through the window or shine through the
walls.
Message no. 8
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 02:22:44 -0600
On Sun, 28 Mar 1999 23:55:10 -0500 "Angelkiller 404"
<angelkiller404@**********.com> writes:
<SNIP>
>>At 10:41 PM 3/28/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>>> To anyone reading this that is playing in my game online....do not
go any
>>>> further.
>>>>
>>>> g
>>>> o
>>>>
>>>> o
>>>> n
>>>>
>>>> d
>>>> o
>>>> w
>>>> n
>>>>
>>>> i
>>>> f
>>>>
>>>> y
>>>> o
>>>> u
>>>>
>>>> d
>>>> a
>>>> r
>>>> e
>>>> !
>>>>
<SNIP>
>Actually, all types of walls show up as opaque in astral space,
>regardless of the material used to create them.
<SNIP>

Not quite ... Transparent walls are transparent in astral space.

--
D. Ghost
"I heard size doesn't matter" -- Maniac
"She lied" -- Rosie
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Message no. 9
From: Airwasp@***.com Airwasp@***.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:32:36 EST
In a message dated 3/28/1999 10:30:44 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
equine@******.net writes:

Spoliers for people in equine's pbem ...






















> Ok...if a mage goes astral what kind of test should I make that he sees
> some folks way up on 10-15 story buildings? They are stealthy sniper like
> guys who are staying down and being very still. Would he see their glowing
> persona? I guess I could just lie and say he did not notice them...but I
> hate being a liar.

There is one thing you should keep in mind: how far away are the snipers from
the projecting mage? The astral makes perception beyond a certain distance
much more difficult.

-Herc
Message no. 10
From: Joshua Mumme Grimlakin@**********.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:06:55 -0600
Airwasp@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/28/1999 10:30:44 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> equine@******.net writes:
>
> Spoliers for people in equine's pbem ...
>
> > Ok...if a mage goes astral what kind of test should I make that he sees
> > some folks way up on 10-15 story buildings? They are stealthy sniper like
> > guys who are staying down and being very still. Would he see their glowing
> > persona? I guess I could just lie and say he did not notice them...but I
> > hate being a liar.
>
> There is one thing you should keep in mind: how far away are the snipers from
> the projecting mage? The astral makes perception beyond a certain distance
> much more difficult.

Here is a question for you. Lets say you have a physad with the combat sense
ability. Give him a base rateing of 1. Could a sniper get a shot at the Physad
without said fello getting a chance to do a initiative roll aginst him? We need
ranges for some of these abilities. <From the guy that allmost lost a charachter
to a sniper.>

>
>
> -Herc

Grimlakin
Message no. 11
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:43:10 -0600
On Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:06:55 -0600 Joshua Mumme
<Grimlakin@**********.com> writes:
<SNIP>
>Here is a question for you. Lets say you have a physad with the combat
sense
>ability. Give him a base rateing of 1. Could a sniper get a shot at
the Physad
>without said fello getting a chance to do a initiative roll aginst him?
We need
>ranges for some of these abilities. <From the guy that allmost lost a
charachter
>to a sniper.>

Grim, first, you should've SNIP-ed the section that had spoilers equine's
PBEM ... OR left the spoiler sapce in place if you needed to respond to
the his post, which you didn't (Need to).

Second, AFAIK, you have to be able to detect an attack to use the Combat
Sense. There is a seperate ability in Awakenings (and presumably in
MitS) for use against undetected assailants ... It's called Danger Sense.
In response to your question above, I would say only if the PhysAd can
detect the sniper somehow ... range is irrelevant (except, perhaps in
determining detectability.).

--
D. Ghost
This cranium left intentionally vacant
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Message no. 12
From: Airwasp@***.com Airwasp@***.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 04:53:52 EST
In a message dated 3/30/1999 7:11:02 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Grimlakin@**********.com writes:

> > There is one thing you should keep in mind: how far away are the snipers
> from
> > the projecting mage? The astral makes perception beyond a certain
> distance
> > much more difficult.
>
> Here is a question for you. Lets say you have a physad with the combat
> sense
> ability. Give him a base rateing of 1. Could a sniper get a shot at the
> Physad
> without said fello getting a chance to do a initiative roll aginst him? We
> need
> ranges for some of these abilities. <From the guy that allmost lost a
> charachter
> to a sniper.>

Okay, Combat Sense, level 1, gives the Adept 1 extra die to Combat Pool, but
what is more important is the amount of dice that the Adept gains in for
making "Surprise" tests, in this case, IMO. Say the Adept has a reaction of
8, level 1 Combat Sense gives him an additional 2 dice. I would have the
Adept roll the 2 dice gained towards their Reaction for surprise tests with a
target number equal to the BASE target number of the sniper (not including any
modifiers the sniper has against them). If the Adept gets a single success,
then they have the ability to dodge the incoming shot.

As for any other person, have them make a perception test with a target number
equal to the same target number as the Adept, except that instead of needing
only a single success, the person needs to attain a threshold equal to half
(round down) of the target number they need to get. If the equal or exceed
the threshold, then the person has a chance to dodge then.

What do you think??

-Herc
Message no. 13
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:46:27 -0600
On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 04:53:52 EST Airwasp@***.com writes:
>In a message dated 3/30/1999 7:11:02 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
>Grimlakin@**********.com writes:
<SNIP>
>>Here is a question for you. Lets say you have a physad with the combat
sense
>>ability. Give him a base rateing of 1. Could a sniper get a shot at
the
>>Physad
>>without said fello getting a chance to do a initiative roll aginst him?
<SNIP>

>Okay, Combat Sense, level 1, gives the Adept 1 extra die to Combat Pool,
but
>what is more important is the amount of dice that the Adept gains in for
>making "Surprise" tests, in this case, IMO.
<SNIP>

Except that since when do make surprise tests for assailants that you
don't detect. As I said in another post, the determining factor here is
detection. Now, a Sniper can get a shot off at with a base Target Number
4 (modified due to scope) out to a range of 1 KILOMETER. What are the
chances of spotting a random person, 1 km away who is shooting from
behind some cover (ie, partial cover). I don't know about you, but I'd
say that to me he'd be a fuzzy dot that I wouldn't even notice ... If the
PhysAd can't detect the Sniper (and I wouldn't even roll unless the
character had special senses AND the player specifically said the
character was looking for something in the area the sniper was in ...),
there'd be no surprise test and no Combat Pool vrs the attack.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
WARNING: Virus found: Win.com
Disinfect? (Y/N)

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Message no. 14
From: Airwasp@***.com Airwasp@***.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:06:05 EST
In a message dated 3/31/1999 7:59:00 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.com writes:

> >>Here is a question for you. Lets say you have a physad with the combat
> sense
> >>ability. Give him a base rateing of 1. Could a sniper get a shot at
> the
> >>Physad
> >>without said fello getting a chance to do a initiative roll aginst him?
> <SNIP>
>
> >Okay, Combat Sense, level 1, gives the Adept 1 extra die to Combat Pool,
> but
> >what is more important is the amount of dice that the Adept gains in for
> >making "Surprise" tests, in this case, IMO.
> <SNIP>
>
> Except that since when do make surprise tests for assailants that you
> don't detect. As I said in another post, the determining factor here is
> detection. Now, a Sniper can get a shot off at with a base Target Number
> 4 (modified due to scope) out to a range of 1 KILOMETER. What are the
> chances of spotting a random person, 1 km away who is shooting from
> behind some cover (ie, partial cover). I don't know about you, but I'd
> say that to me he'd be a fuzzy dot that I wouldn't even notice ... If the
> PhysAd can't detect the Sniper (and I wouldn't even roll unless the
> character had special senses AND the player specifically said the
> character was looking for something in the area the sniper was in ...),
> there'd be no surprise test and no Combat Pool vrs the attack.

Okay, I'm going to quote something from the Combat Sense power ... "Combat
sense provides an instinctive sense about an area and any potential threats
nearby." Combat Sense the power is nothing more than enhancing the 'hairs-
standing-up-on-the-back-of-your-neck' feeling.

I would like to point something out to everyone. In SR3 there is no such
thing as Dodge anymore. When resisting damage a pc rolls their Body plus any
dice they wish to allocate from their Combat Pool. There is nothing stated in
the Surprise rules (108-9 of SR3) that says that a person can not use Combat
Pool in certain situations to resist damage.

-Herc
Message no. 15
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 23:02:00 -0600
:Here is a question for you. Lets say you have a physad with the combat
sense
:ability. Give him a base rateing of 1. Could a sniper get a shot at
the Physad
:without said fello getting a chance to do a initiative roll aginst him?
We need
:ranges for some of these abilities. <From the guy that allmost lost a
charachter
:to a sniper.>



Combat sense provides extra combat pool dice and allows (some of) them
to be used for reaction tests. What good is that against a sniper?
Reaction test TN's are set by the GM, and I'd set the TN to avoid suprise
by an unknown sniper pretty damn high.
Even if it DID go to an initiative roll, thats no help, unless you are
aware of the sniper. You just get to sit around doing what you would have
done before, and the sniper hits you later in the turn. The GM going
"hey, roll initiative" should in no way inform the characters that they
are in danger.
After the first shot, or if the sniper was spotted (either of which
might intaite a suprise test) the power would do some good, of course.

Mongoose
Message no. 16
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:55:10 -0500 (EST)
On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 Airwasp@***.com wrote:

> I would like to point something out to everyone. In SR3 there is no such
> thing as Dodge anymore. When resisting damage a pc rolls their Body plus any
> dice they wish to allocate from their Combat Pool. There is nothing stated in
> the Surprise rules (108-9 of SR3) that says that a person can not use Combat
> Pool in certain situations to resist damage.

You've got your wires crossed, Herc. There was no dodge in SR2.
SR3 has brought back a variant on the dodge mechanic that existed in SR1,
whereby people could spend an arbitrary amount of Combat Pool dice in a
"dodge" test that has a base target number of 4. If their successes from
this test outnumber the attacker's successes, the attack is a miss, and no
Body Resistance roll need be made. If the attacker still hits, then the
net number of successes (after the dodge test) is used to determine
staging and a Body Resistance test is made as normal. Note also that you
can still add any reserve Combat Pool dice to your Body resistance test if
you fail to dodge (assuming that you haven't blown it all previously).
And finally, you have no access to Pool dice of any kind if you are
surprised. You take the hit and chew the pain.
How do I handle surprise tests in such circumstances? I always
allow people to roll their Reaction, but their target number is typically
hellacious for a situation where the sniper is far away, hidden, or
whatever. I also add the net difference in Stealth vs. Perception tests
to the target number of the person being ambushed.
For example, Bart the Sniper is lying in the weeds 500m from his
target. If you use SR3's "Open Stealth Test" (which I don't), say that
Bart's highest was a 10. His target rolled well but scored only an 8
after all the modifiers for cover, distance (a la Grimoire 2), and
distraction (he's not actively looking for a sniper) are taken off
(recall that modifiers are subtracted from the result of an Open Test).
Thus, when the surprise test comes along, Bart (who has a held action) is
looking for a 4 - 2 = 2. His opponent is looking for a 4 + (10-8 = 2) 6. Even if Bart
only has a Reaction of 4 he's likely to surprise his
target regardless of how Wired or Combat Sensitive his target is. Had the
target rolled poorly, the difference would have been much greater, as
would the target's final Surprise target number.
Works like a charm and makes the stealthy approach eminently
worthwhile.

Marc
Message no. 17
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:17:41 -0600
::Okay, Combat Sense, level 1, gives the Adept 1 extra die to Combat Pool,
but
:what is more important is the amount of dice that the Adept gains in for
:making "Surprise" tests, in this case, IMO. Say the Adept has a reaction
of
:8, level 1 Combat Sense gives him an additional 2 dice. I would have the
:Adept roll the 2 dice gained towards their Reaction for surprise tests
with a
:target number equal to the BASE target number of the sniper (not
including any
:modifiers the sniper has against them). If the Adept gets a single
success,
:then they have the ability to dodge the incoming shot.
:
:As for any other person, have them make a perception test with a target
number
:equal to the same target number as the Adept, except that instead of
needing
:only a single success, the person needs to attain a threshold equal to
half
:(round down) of the target number they need to get. If the equal or
exceed
:the threshold, then the person has a chance to dodge then.
:
:What do you think??
:
:-Herc


Thats as fair as any other completely arbitrary method. The one
obvious bad point is that the target's TN depends on the weapon's range
capability- is it really that much harder to see a sniper at 510m if he's
using a sporting or assault rifle than if he's using a sniper rifle? By
your method, the TN for the former 2 is 9, and the later 6. ("Snipers"
with tazers could hide real well just 13-15 meters away...)
You could more easily just consult the table on p. 92 (sr3)- spotting
/ avoiding suprise by a long range sniper should be "difficult" to "nearly
impossible". That would generally lead a similar TN, and getting just one
perception success never tells you the whole story.


Mongoose
Message no. 18
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:34:29 -0600
:I would like to point something out to everyone. In SR3 there is no such
:thing as Dodge anymore. When resisting damage a pc rolls their Body plus
any
:dice they wish to allocate from their Combat Pool. There is nothing
stated in
:the Surprise rules (108-9 of SR3) that says that a person can not use
Combat
:Pool in certain situations to resist damage.
:
:-Herc


sr3 P108, 2nd column, halfway down;
"4. Resolve Dodge Test"
sr3 P108, 1st column, halfway down;
"Characters who are suprised (who cannot take actions against an
opponent) cannot use their Combat Pool to defend against attacks from that
opponent."

I'd say that SR3 certainly DOES have such a thing as dodging (you can
also do it in melee, as full defense).
Combat pool in surprise situations might be interpreted as ambiguous
(it might only mean "for melee counterattacks" where it says "to defend
against"...), but we have always played that it means you don't get combat
pool for damage resistance if surprised by your attacker.

Mongoose
Message no. 19
From: Laughing Man oliver_wilken@*******.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:00:56 PST
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:17:41 -0600

::Okay, Combat Sense, level 1, gives the Adept 1 extra die to Combat
Pool,
but
:what is more important is the amount of dice that the Adept gains in
for
:making "Surprise" tests, in this case, IMO. Say the Adept has a
reaction
of
:8, level 1 Combat Sense gives him an additional 2 dice. I would have
the
:Adept roll the 2 dice gained towards their Reaction for surprise tests
with a
:target number equal to the BASE target number of the sniper (not
including any
:modifiers the sniper has against them). If the Adept gets a single
success,
:then they have the ability to dodge the incoming shot.
:
:As for any other person, have them make a perception test with a target
number
:equal to the same target number as the Adept, except that instead of
needing
:only a single success, the person needs to attain a threshold equal to
half
:(round down) of the target number they need to get. If the equal or
exceed
:the threshold, then the person has a chance to dodge then.
:
:What do you think??
:
:-Herc


Thats as fair as any other completely arbitrary method. The one
obvious bad point is that the target's TN depends on the weapon's range
capability- is it really that much harder to see a sniper at 510m if
he's
using a sporting or assault rifle than if he's using a sniper rifle? By
your method, the TN for the former 2 is 9, and the later 6. ("Snipers"
with tazers could hide real well just 13-15 meters away...)
You could more easily just consult the table on p. 92 (sr3)-
spotting
/ avoiding suprise by a long range sniper should be "difficult" to
"nearly
impossible". That would generally lead a similar TN, and getting just
one
perception success never tells you the whole story.


Mongoose


I think the resoning behind the target number being the same as the
snipper is that it reflects the level of danger from the snipper. That
is of assuming that Combat Senses include a danger sense in it. I would
have Danger Sense as a seperate ability to reflect the adapt using
extrasensory information about the area s/he is in (a mild form of
assenssing for adapts.

Maybe the cost for this ability (if there isn't one already in print)
would be .5 per point in it or have it equal to combat senses.

*Laughing Man* >>strikes-again/ha-ha-ha<<

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Message no. 20
From: Airwasp@***.com Airwasp@***.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 13:39:55 EST
In a message dated 3/31/1999 11:24:28 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
m0ng005e@*********.com writes:

> :As for any other person, have them make a perception test with a target
> number
> :equal to the same target number as the Adept, except that instead of
> needing
> :only a single success, the person needs to attain a threshold equal to
> half
> :(round down) of the target number they need to get. If the equal or
> exceed
> :the threshold, then the person has a chance to dodge then.
> :
> :What do you think??
> :
> :-Herc
>
>
> Thats as fair as any other completely arbitrary method. The one
> obvious bad point is that the target's TN depends on the weapon's range
> capability- is it really that much harder to see a sniper at 510m if he's
> using a sporting or assault rifle than if he's using a sniper rifle? By
> your method, the TN for the former 2 is 9, and the later 6. ("Snipers"
> with tazers could hide real well just 13-15 meters away...)
> You could more easily just consult the table on p. 92 (sr3)- spotting
> / avoiding suprise by a long range sniper should be "difficult" to
"nearly
> impossible". That would generally lead a similar TN, and getting just one
> perception success never tells you the whole story.

The reason I made the target number so high is that I considered it a
perception test to basically hear the bullet coming right for you. And after
having re-read the Surprise rules, those rules still apply anyway. I know
they don't work in every situation, but they are a blanket in most cases.
Besides, gaining a -2 because you are lying in wait is also a wonderful thing
too.

-Herc
Message no. 21
From: Airwasp@***.com Airwasp@***.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 13:37:32 EST
In a message dated 3/31/1999 10:57:22 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
renouf@********.com writes:

> Note also that you
> can still add any reserve Combat Pool dice to your Body resistance test if
> you fail to dodge (assuming that you haven't blown it all previously).
> And finally, you have no access to Pool dice of any kind if you are
> surprised. You take the hit and chew the pain.

*Scratching top of head* Hmm, I think my BABY grew a small section after I
went to sleep this morning. You are correct on both accounts. Thank you for
correcting me.

> How do I handle surprise tests in such circumstances? I always
> allow people to roll their Reaction, but their target number is typically
> hellacious for a situation where the sniper is far away, hidden, or
> whatever. I also add the net difference in Stealth vs. Perception tests
> to the target number of the person being ambushed.
> For example, Bart the Sniper is lying in the weeds 500m from his
> target. If you use SR3's "Open Stealth Test" (which I don't), say that
> Bart's highest was a 10. His target rolled well but scored only an 8
> after all the modifiers for cover, distance (a la Grimoire 2), and
> distraction (he's not actively looking for a sniper) are taken off
> (recall that modifiers are subtracted from the result of an Open Test).
> Thus, when the surprise test comes along, Bart (who has a held action) is
> looking for a 4 - 2 = 2. His opponent is looking for a 4 + (10-8 = 2) > 6.
Even if Bart only has a Reaction of 4 he's likely to surprise his
> target regardless of how Wired or Combat Sensitive his target is. Had the
> target rolled poorly, the difference would have been much greater, as
> would the target's final Surprise target number.
> Works like a charm and makes the stealthy approach eminently
> worthwhile.

Okay, I am going to amend my previous statement then, especially after reading
the section over again. First, a sniper is waiting, therefore they have
prepared an ambush for the character, they gain a -2 to their Surprise test.
The pc and the sniper both roll their Reactions, and the Adept gains an
additional number of dice as set-aside by their Combat Sense power. The Adept
has a target number of a 4 to perceive that they are about to be on the
receiving end of a lead enema. The sniper has a target number of a 2.

After being a little more awake this time, have the two people roll their
Surprise tests then and let the chips fall where they may.

There may also be a way for the sniper to gain additional dice on their
Surprise test is if you allow their Stealth (Lying in wait or something close
to that effect) to be rolled also as a Complimentary skill.

-I hope this sounds better than what I wrote this morning then.

-Herc
Message no. 22
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:16:52 EST
In a message dated 3/31/1999 10:21:11 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
m0ng005e@*********.com writes:

> Combat sense provides extra combat pool dice and allows (some of) them
> to be used for reaction tests. What good is that against a sniper?
> Reaction test TN's are set by the GM, and I'd set the TN to avoid suprise
> by an unknown sniper pretty damn high.
> Even if it DID go to an initiative roll, thats no help, unless you are
> aware of the sniper. You just get to sit around doing what you would have
> done before, and the sniper hits you later in the turn. The GM going
> "hey, roll initiative" should in no way inform the characters that they
> are in danger.
> After the first shot, or if the sniper was spotted (either of which
> might intaite a suprise test) the power would do some good, of course.

Guys, I am not entirely certain here, but I think that Mike B. was prying into
the questioning idea that "Combat Sense" gives indication of events that are
not in LOS of the person gaining the benefits. Now granted, snipers shouldn't
be that close to be truly "snipers" IMO, but the idea is there.

Let's try switching this a bit.

If it were the Combat Sense spell, could the dice from the success test (aka:
the perception used by the mechanics) be used to get out of the way?

-K
Message no. 23
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Astral Assensing (different question)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:39:41 -0500 (EST)
On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 Airwasp@***.com wrote:

> The reason I made the target number so high is that I considered it a
> perception test to basically hear the bullet coming right for you.

Most bullets (especially those fired from sniper rifles) travel at
supersonic speeds. In other words, you will never hear the bullet or the
sound of the rifle firing until after you've been hit. As such, "hearing"
the bullet "coming right for you" is a flawed rationale upon which to base
a surprise target number.

Marc

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