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From:	Jeremy Baker meroeandjeremy@*******.com.au
Subject:	Astral Defences
Date:	Sun, 12 Sep 1999 14:57:58 +1000

Message no. 1 I have a few questions regarding a comment on page 173 of the 3rd
ed. rulebook. At the end of the section on Astral Movement it states
"The Earth is solid on the astral plane, just as it is in
the physical world; astral forms cannot pass through it. Secure facilities
are often built underground to keep out astral intruders."
My questions are-
How deep underground?
How thick a layer of earth is required?
Would a cave, or the like, be acceptable?
If so can you build something like a mud hut, ie shape the earth above
ground level (build a cave)? If so what constructions can still qualify as
Earth; mud-brick, wattle and daub,..... mud facing on some other material.

N.B. I don't expect the last to qualify, but I am curious to know
where people draw the line, since the 'overgrown ivy on the wall', no longer
works as a cheap astral defence, I was looking at other options.

JB.

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Astral Defences
Date:	Sun, 12 Sep 1999 10:59:14 +0200

Message no. 2 According to Jeremy Baker, at 14:57 on 12 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> I have a few questions regarding a comment on page 173 of the 3rd
> ed. rulebook. At the end of the section on Astral Movement it states
> "The Earth is solid on the astral plane, just as it is in
> the physical world; astral forms cannot pass through it. Secure facilities
> are often built underground to keep out astral intruders."

MITS has a little rule that allows magicians to move through the earth on
the astral plane (right, Granite? :)

> My questions are-
> How deep underground?
> How thick a layer of earth is required?

Thick enough that it can be considered "natural" earth. I guess you vcan
do this in two ways: one is to dig "under" the earth instead of making a
big hole straight down, so you don't disturb the natural earth. The other
would be to dig a hole, build a room there, and cover it with earth, then
wait for it to become "natural" earth again, rather than "constructed"

earth.

Either way, you'd need to provide extra astral security for the entrance,
or for the side that's "exposed," but this is easier, faster, and cheaper
than having to astrally guard five sides of a building.

> Would a cave, or the like, be acceptable?

Yes, provided you astrally secure the opening to the cave, of course :)

> If so can you build something like a mud hut, ie shape the earth above
> ground level (build a cave)? If so what constructions can still qualify as
> Earth; mud-brick, wattle and daub,..... mud facing on some other material.

I'd say it wouldn't. It's not natural earth anymore, it's something
someone made out of earth. It'd count as a low-tech, manufactured object
for magical purposes.

> N.B. I don't expect the last to qualify, but I am curious to know
> where people draw the line, since the 'overgrown ivy on the wall', no longer
> works as a cheap astral defence, I was looking at other options.

Grow astrally-active ivy over a wall, that works now. (Well, it always
_worked_, if you were prepared to risk magicians grounding Powerballs
through it to clear the ivy...)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Send BIOS authors and hard drive manufacturers back to school!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject:	Astral Defences
Date:	Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:56:27 -0300

Message no. 3 "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Jeremy Baker."
] I have a few questions regarding a comment on page 173 of the 3rd
] ed. rulebook. At the end of the section on Astral Movement it states
] "The Earth is solid on the astral plane, just as it is in
] the physical world; astral forms cannot pass through it. Secure facilities
] are often built underground to keep out astral intruders."
] My questions are-
] How deep underground?

Gurth answered the rest of these, so I'll chip in for this
one...passing through earth takes a base time of thirty minutes per
METRE (wow). You can modify that with a Charisma test, or through
Spirit help, but it comes down to how long you can stay down without
running out of essence. Think of it as swimming underwater. Even with
a SCUBA tank, you're still limited by your air supply.

-Boondocker

From:	GRANITE granite@**.net
Subject:	Astral Defences
Date:	Sun, 12 Sep 1999 10:42:32 -0700

Message no. 4 > > "The Earth is solid on the astral plane, just as it is in
> > the physical world; astral forms cannot pass through it. Secure facilities
> > are often built underground to keep out astral intruders."
> MITS has a little rule that allows magicians to move through the earth on
> the astral plane (right, Granite? :)

Heh..heh..heh..Yup..I was wondering if your character was going to
get the hint and come out via the foundations area he popped up
in..but he elected to take the long route out ;)

--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
==============================================Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The
Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
==============================================Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Who Do You Trust? And, Who Do You Serve? - Galen
Jamais Arriere

From:	Strago strago@***.com
Subject:	Astral Defences
Date:	Sun, 12 Sep 1999 14:05:50 -0400

Message no. 5 Gurth wrote:

> <SNIP>
> > N.B. I don't expect the last to qualify, but I am curious to know
> > where people draw the line, since the 'overgrown ivy on the wall', no longer
> > works as a cheap astral defence, I was looking at other options.
>
> Grow astrally-active ivy over a wall, that works now. (Well, it always
> _worked_, if you were prepared to risk magicians grounding Powerballs
> through it to clear the ivy...)
>

Couldn't the mage in the astral try to fireball or powerball the astral-active
ivy? It wouldn't ground to the physical plane, but maybe enough would die that a
hole would open up. 'Course, the drain would be physical...

>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> Send BIOS authors and hard drive manufacturers back to school!
> -> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
> ->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
> -> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-
>
> GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
> PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+) gm+ M-

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Astral Defences
Date:	Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:00:11 +0200

Message no. 6 According to GRANITE, at 10:42 on 12 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Heh..heh..heh..Yup..I was wondering if your character was going to
> get the hint and come out via the foundations area he popped up
> in..but he elected to take the long route out ;)

Nothing like wasting a bit more time... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Send BIOS authors and hard drive manufacturers back to school!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Astral Defences
Date:	Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:22:32 EDT

Message no. 7 In a message dated 9/12/1999 12:50:14 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
meroeandjeremy@*******.com.au writes:

> I have a few questions regarding a comment on page 173 of the 3rd
> ed. rulebook. At the end of the section on Astral Movement it states
> "The Earth is solid on the astral plane, just as it is in
> the physical world; astral forms cannot pass through it. Secure
facilities
> are often built underground to keep out astral intruders."

Oh the fun of the "Living Earth" concept.

> My questions are-
> How deep underground?

In game terms, I *think* the mechanics vary actually. The degree of movement
through living earth via astral projection is *VERY* slow and *VERY*
dangerous. MitS I *think* updated this rule some, but if it did, it's no
real help.

IMO, and no I have NOT looked this up to verify this, any depth of a one (1)
full meter or more would qualify as some kind of "astral barrier" IMO. It
may be less, it may be more (sorry).

> How thick a layer of earth is required?

See above.

> Would a cave, or the like, be acceptable?

In most cases, I would say yes without question. This may in fact be *part*
of the reason for a "Dragon's Lair" if one thinks about it for a while.

> If so can you build something like a mud hut, ie shape the earth above
> ground level (build a cave)? If so what constructions can still qualify as
> Earth; mud-brick, wattle and daub,..... mud facing on some other material.

*THIS* has always been the part I like. I would suggest the following for
allowances for "Living Earth" construction materials.

Unhewn stones that are put together with mud/grass (not dry straw) to
stucco/mortar it all together.

Fire Kiln materials (brick, porcelain, etc.) will NOT qualify for these
materials.

Concrete is not considered Living Earth. HOWEVER, there may be a way using
Enchanting to come up with said materials and create an "Alchemists Brick".
Follow the rules for Refinement of minerals and such and you can begin to get
some ideas on what is possible. The "Kiln" needed for said "bricks"
would
have to be special, probably a cost modifier to the Enchanter's Shop fees
that are present in MitS (Magic in the Shadows). Alternatively, with
"concrete", the right kind of mix would do it, and some kind of unit
proportion could be worked out with radicalized materials included in the mix
(just a thought...yes, we've done this in the games here, but they are
EXPENSIVE!!!).

Creation of a purely earthen structure done by way of Shape Earth, Earth
Elementals, Gnomes (the spirit kind, not the metahuman variant) or Land-Based
nature spirit might readily be able to provide such means as to create such
an environment. Shadowrun doesn't really give great ideas for how long it
would take an elemental/spirit to "build a house" (cave, hohokam(sp?), or
lair), but IMO, it shouldn't be something capable of doing too quickly.
Perhaps give the barrier of the intended house a number to shoot for or use
the spirits/elementals force as the number of cubic meters per hour or
something.

> N.B. I don't expect the last to qualify, but I am curious to know
> where people draw the line, since the 'overgrown ivy on the wall', no
longer
> works as a cheap astral defence, I was looking at other options.

Well, it works, its just no longer "cheap". Biofiber and Guardian Vines both
exist in MitS. And, with a little bit of (para)botany, crossing some
categories of plants is often well worth the effort. And, though Shadowrun
again doesn't really cover this too much, the idea that *some* plants would
have a more significant astral presence should exist and could be used by
many people as alternative methods. In truth, and entire line of business
expansions for "Paranormal Plants" might exist in the larger cities or those
with better connections at places like larger nurseries or perhaps the more
"experienced" gardeners.

-K

From:	IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject:	Astral Defences
Date:	Mon, 13 Sep 1999 16:24:32 -0400

Message no. 8 At 12.22 09-13-99 EDT, you wrote:
>expansions for "Paranormal Plants" might exist in the larger cities or those

>with better connections at places like larger nurseries or perhaps the more

An Awakened venus flytrap (hades' flytrap?) might be kinda interesting.
(players fail perception check, "Suddenly, you feel something wrap around
your leg like aniron cable, and begin dragging you deeper into the bushes.
Make a Quik chack to hang onto your sniper rifle.")
Anyone ever come up with one?

Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."

From:	Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject:	Astral Defences
Date:	Tue, 14 Sep 1999 00:42:33 +0200

Message no. 9 IronRaven wrote:
>

> An Awakened venus flytrap (hades' flytrap?) might be kinda interesting.
> (players fail perception check, "Suddenly, you feel something wrap around
> your leg like aniron cable, and begin dragging you deeper into the bushes.
> Make a Quik chack to hang onto your sniper rifle.")
> Anyone ever come up with one?
>
Now, Now, heheheh, finaly someone else is going into that direction ...
K, you remember?
Well i guess some folks from #Shadowrun do remember it too, my little
ideas about awakend plants and they likes :)

Well, in short yes, i have extensive thoughts about that subject :)

--
Barbie

"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein FÂ�hrer" - Adolf Hitler

barbie@********.de
http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie/index.html

SRGC 0.22: SR1 SR2+++ SR3--- h++++ b++ b--- UB++ IE- RN+ SR_D+++ W++
dk sh++++ ri++++ sa+++ ad+++ m+++(x+++) gm++ m+++ P+++(P*)

From:	Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject:	Astral Defences
Date:	Mon, 13 Sep 1999 21:21:28 -0300

Message no. 10 "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to IronRaven."
] An Awakened venus flytrap (hades' flytrap?) might be kinda interesting.
] (players fail perception check, "Suddenly, you feel something wrap around
] your leg like aniron cable, and begin dragging you deeper into the bushes.
] Make a Quik chack to hang onto your sniper rifle.")
] Anyone ever come up with one?

Nope, but they're a good idea. 'Course, I've always thought the idea
of active plants was rather goofy...most predatory plants in nature now
(corrrect me if I'm wrong) are reactive, that is, they wait for a bug
to blunder in, then die, then eat 'em. My guess is predatory plants in
Shadowrun would be the same, but moreso. On the other hand, if
anything's gonna cause plants that reach out and touch someone, it's
the Awakening.

Here's a neat one. A big ol' plant, sort of a...damn. I'm coming up
completeely blank on the name. Anyway, most of the plant is a large
pit under ground level, with the stamen and such above ground. The
plant emits pheremones that have the effect of Desire Reflection,
luring creatures into the pit, where they get all stickied up, and
starve. Then they're digested. Sound plausible?

Pitcher plant! That's the one, I think...geez, now I'm not sure.

-Boondocker

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Astral Defences
Date:	Tue, 14 Sep 1999 00:34:40 EDT

Message no. 11 In a message dated 9/13/1999 5:52:52 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
barbie@********.de writes:

> > An Awakened venus flytrap (hades' flytrap?) might be kinda
> interesting.
> > (players fail perception check, "Suddenly, you feel something wrap around
> > your leg like aniron cable, and begin dragging you deeper into the
bushes.
> > Make a Quik chack to hang onto your sniper rifle.")
> > Anyone ever come up with one?
> >
> Now, Now, heheheh, finaly someone else is going into that direction ...
> K, you remember?
> Well i guess some folks from #Shadowrun do remember it too, my little
> ideas about awakend plants and they likes :)
>
> Well, in short yes, i have extensive thoughts about that subject :)

Actually, yes, I do remember this idea. I keep wanting to come up with a
list of "Parabotanical Stuff", but with everything else I'm doing, I just
don't have the time.

-K

From:	Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Astral Defences
Date:	Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:55:01 -0700

Message no. 12 > Couldn't the mage in the astral try to fireball or powerball the
astral-active
> ivy? It wouldn't ground to the physical plane, but maybe enough would die
that a
> hole would open up. 'Course, the drain would be physical...

Those spells would not work- you can't cast physical spells if you are
astral, or target a (soley) astral form with physical spells. But yes, a
manaball would work. <Ahnold> "If eat's ahstral, I can keel it..."
</Schwatzeneger>
In SR3, and particualary in MITS, theres a LOT of opportunity for astral
defense, but they are not really easy or cheap., and they do require some
thinking on the GM's part (though they are not hard to use effectively).
The main difference from SR2 is that all astral defense has to be "magical"
(with the exception of sub-teranian architecture, which still requires a
defended entrance). I'm not sure this is really so big a deal, and it
seems to result in fewer headaches...
The most basic type of astral defense would be the ward. Wards are not
hard to create (any body with a magic rating can do it), and can either be
very strong (almost impossible to breech, if created by a team) but short
lived, or longer lived but fairly weak. Even a weak ward is a useful
"alarm", however...
For example, my mage was stopped the other day by a simple astral ward.
Yeah, I might have been able to beat it and get through, but a mage knows
when a barrier he created
is attacked, and there was a good chance there were watchers patrolling the
other side- they would also notice me doing the attack, because the
barrier is only opaque to people the creator wants it to be opaque to. I
didn't wan't that, because I was escorting / protecting a spirit that was
concealing our team- punching thorugh security would have been
couter-productive to thier stealth.
As a result, the team continued on thier own, but I (and my spirit) did
not go with them. They ended up doing fine, but lost the (dubious) benefit
of my astral overwatch...
Maybe I was being wussy, but the result was, simple security (a low force
ward and some watchers) was good enough (well, almost good enough-
thankfully, the team took it from there with panache, and I'd gotten them
most of the way to thier goal). The on-site mage (assuming there was one)
never came around for a visit, but if I had tried to use magic and travel
astraly as freely as I'd liked, I could easily have been asking for a nasty
fight.
MITS offers stuff that is potentially MUCH fancier- advanced wards types,
dual natured bio-engeneered "wards" (some of which trigger alarms when
attacked astrally) and so forth. Even without that, there's the good old
"detect magic" spell- mundane guards with that spell sustained (via a
sustaing focus) would discourage magical hijinks almost as well as somebody
using astral perception. If you are intersted in astral defense, read up
on wards and detection spells, and maybe consider some having a spirit
(genrally a permenantly bound elemental) do "astral patrols"- preferably
INSIDE a ward...
Another good way to ensure astral security is just to have a site that
isn't WORTH surveiling astrally. Sure, the mage can find out the layout,
but if all the work is done in th matrix, and you have good physical
security, who cares? He can't even ID your workers, because he's only seen
them astrally!

Mongoose

"These days, you have to be pretty technical before you can even aspire to
crudeness."

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