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Message no. 1
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Astral invisibility, and more!
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 17:06:56 +1100
Sean Sheridan asked:

> A quick question. Anyone ever develop an astral invisibility spell?

Damion replied:

> Yep many people have on this list. I for one do not think they should be
> possible. Spells and such are always visible from the astral plane.

I agree, but I'd go much further.

The idea of _any_ spell having its mundane-world effect on the astral
plane makes no sense to me. I mean, you've got this living creature
in astral space; it runs over to the target - and then what? When
it grounds out into the mundane world, its astral force can break
various physical laws, or interact with physical matter in particular
ways.

But it's got nothing to get a grip on, on the astral plane. Even if
you decided that the astral energies _can_ `ground out' into the astral
plane in the first place! It'd be like trying to tell your dog to
`Go fetch' by pointing your VCR control at him and pressing `Play'.

So, what's left? This small astral creature sitting on someone's
head shouting `Ignore this guy - he's invisible!' ?


I also suspect there's another subtle thing going on in the background
of all these discussions about what you can and can't do with magic.

Some people, like me, played (or play) in a campaign where there are
several mages amongst the players. For people like us, restricting
the things that mages can do means you're playing a harder, grittier
campaign.

Other people, though, play in groups with little or no magical
support. For them, increasing the things that mages can do means
you're playing a harder, grittier campaign.

Interesting, eh?

I'd suggest, though, that restricting the mages will make your
game world more stable, and less likely to break down if you
start taking into consideration the economic and social ramifications
of the magic in question.

(See, I talked about things without using that pesky viral meme
that short circuits the thinking process! :-)

luke
Message no. 2
From: Sean Sheridan <sean@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Astral invisibility, and more!
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 02:23:10 -0600
Good points luke. But about restricting magical power, maybe a better idea
would be to restrict magical research. IE, only people with BIG libraries
and magical theory 6 or higher and lots of TIME(or money) can develop the
more powerful spells. This way you can keep the players weak(er), the corps
a mystery, and magic POWRFUL so the shaman can have a dream and do a ONE time
only spell to counter the magic of a realy nasty enemy. I think that PCs just
don't have the resources OR the training to develop many of the really
complicated spells/effetcs, but that doens't mean that the Ares magical R&D
people haven't already done it...
Sean
Message no. 3
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Astral invisibility, and more!
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 22:26:42 +1100
Luke Kendall writes:

> > Yep many people have on this list. I for one do not think they should be
> > possible. Spells and such are always visible from the astral plane.
>
> I agree, but I'd go much further.

And I'd agree with you.

> Some people, like me, played (or play) in a campaign where there are
> several mages amongst the players. For people like us, restricting
> the things that mages can do means you're playing a harder, grittier
> campaign.
>
> Other people, though, play in groups with little or no magical
> support. For them, increasing the things that mages can do means
> you're playing a harder, grittier campaign.
>
> Interesting, eh?

Very good thought. I'd have to say you're probably right. A very apt
perception indeed. I agree with you in most cases becasue every game I've
run has had a magician, and I've see the things possible for magicians to
do. Same as you have.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 4
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral invisibility, and more!
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 12:16:20 -0600
Luke says,

>The idea of _any_ spell having its mundane-world effect on the astral
>plane makes no sense to me. I mean, you've got this living creature
>in astral space; it runs over to the target - and then what? When
>it grounds out into the mundane world, its astral force can break
>various physical laws, or interact with physical matter in particular
>ways.
>
>But it's got nothing to get a grip on, on the astral plane. Even if
>you decided that the astral energies _can_ `ground out' into the astral
>plane in the first place! It'd be like trying to tell your dog to
>`Go fetch' by pointing your VCR control at him and pressing `Play'.
>
>So, what's left? This small astral creature sitting on someone's
>head shouting `Ignore this guy - he's invisible!' ?

Have you taken into account the spell astral static? It seems to provide
information that does not agree with what you have stated.

Sinbad Sam
Message no. 5
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Astral invisibility, and more!
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 16:05:42 -0800
On Fri, 3 Mar 1995, Sam Thomas wrote:

> Have you taken into account the spell astral static? It seems to provide
> information that does not agree with what you have stated.

No. What astral static does, is muddy up astral space so that
you can't see through it. Sort of like an underwater squid squirting ink
... you can still tell there's something there.
A Banshee LAV, say, with Astral Static quickened or locked on it
isn't invisible to an assensing Injun mage, in fact rather the reverse
being the equivalent of a magical thundercloud zipping along at 720 kph
... sort of gets your attention, astrally.

> > Sinbad Sam

========================================================================
Adam Getchell "Invincibility is in oneself,
acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu vulnerability in the opponent."
http://instruction.ucdavis.edu/html/Adam/getchell.html
Message no. 6
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Astral invisibility, and more!
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 1995 11:32:34 +1100
Sam Thomas writes:

> >The idea of _any_ spell having its mundane-world effect on the astral
> >plane makes no sense to me. I mean, you've got this living creature
> >in astral space; it runs over to the target - and then what? When
> >it grounds out into the mundane world, its astral force can break
> >various physical laws, or interact with physical matter in particular
> >ways.
> >
> >But it's got nothing to get a grip on, on the astral plane. Even if
> >you decided that the astral energies _can_ `ground out' into the astral
> >plane in the first place! It'd be like trying to tell your dog to
> >`Go fetch' by pointing your VCR control at him and pressing `Play'.
> >
> >So, what's left? This small astral creature sitting on someone's
> >head shouting `Ignore this guy - he's invisible!' ?
>
> Have you taken into account the spell astral static? It seems to provide
> information that does not agree with what you have stated.

Astral Static spell creates, more or less, an artificial background count in
a limited area. It just pumps magical energy into the area, which creates
universal target number modifiers to everything occurring on the astral
inside the area.

But, on the other hand, the book says that spells (noteably Combat spells)
can be cast at an astral target from astral space. It says, from pg 148,
that mana spells affect the astral target, and physical spells ground out
and effect the body of the astral target (thus effecting the astral target
due to repercusion). This is a little strange, as it seems to allow the
casting of an invisibilty spell on an astrally projecting magician by
another, astrally perceiving magician. This I don't agree with, but I also
don't have a handy explanation to say why it shouldn't work. Anyone else?
All I could see happening would be the spell making the astral magician
invisible, but still being visible itself. However, an initiate could mask
the spell then, and so would be completely invisible (actually, it doesn't
say initiates can mask sustained spells in the book, but it does say that
they can mask spell locks, so I'm assuming a sustained spell counts as "one"
rating point of foci for masking purposes). Do others allow, or disallow
this, and what reasoning do you have to back it up?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 7
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Astral invisibility, and more!
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 00:25:12 +1100
Sean Sheridan wrote:

> Good points luke. But about restricting magical power, maybe a better idea
> would be to restrict magical research. IE, only people with BIG libraries
> and magical theory 6 or higher and lots of TIME(or money) can develop the
> more powerful spells. This way you can keep the players weak(er), the corps
> a mystery, and magic POWRFUL so the shaman can have a dream and do a ONE
> time only spell to counter the magic of a realy nasty enemy.

The trouble with this is, that secrets leak out. And once the cat is
out of the bag, you're into the magical arms race in a big way.

I think SR already does this in one way. It's just that I suspect
most runners wouldn't _want_ to get into Blood magic. And if they
did, the other users of it would come down on them like a ton of
bricks. (Inca pyramid bricks. :-)

luke
Message no. 8
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Astral invisibility, and more!
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 00:25:14 +1100
Sam Thomas wrote:

> Luke says,
>
>>The idea of _any_ spell having its mundane-world effect on the astral
>>plane makes no sense to me. I mean, you've got this living creature
>>in astral space; it runs over to the target - and then what? When
>>it grounds out into the mundane world, its astral force can break
>>various physical laws, or interact with physical matter in particular
>>ways.
>>
>>But it's got nothing to get a grip on, on the astral plane. Even if
>>you decided that the astral energies _can_ `ground out' into the astral
>>plane in the first place! It'd be like trying to tell your dog to
>>`Go fetch' by pointing your VCR control at him and pressing `Play'.
>>
>>So, what's left? This small astral creature sitting on someone's
>>head shouting `Ignore this guy - he's invisible!' ?

> Have you taken into account the spell astral static? It seems to provide
> information that does not agree with what you have stated.

I don't have the details on it, no - but it sounds to me that it could
be basically a spell that disperses into a swarm-like cloud of tiny
spell-animals, that are randomly emoting and obscuring things in the
area they're buzzing around in.

Unlike a spell that's to have an effect on the mundane plane,
which must cohere together to focus and channel energies as it
grounds out.

luke

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