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Message no. 1
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral mage & Summoning
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:10:06 -0400
Loki once dared to write,

>I say no. A mage can't sustain a spell while projecting. In my opinion this
>is because he's not tied to his physical body and thus not creating a
>bridge to pull these energies into the physical plane.
What does that have to do with sustaining? Grounding yes, but
sustaining?
>I rule the same for summoning. He's not physical and thus able to
>accurately open a gate (via dancing, gesturing, crying out, or whatever it
>takes) to pull other forces/beings into this plane as well. Now this is
>just my GM's opinion though.
So there's no dancing (or any movement for that matter) in the
Astral now? Elementals need the summoning supplies to be brought forth
and perhaps nature spirits might need to be beckoned from within their
domain and not just it's astral location. Now if that was the case then
perhaps, but that would still not say why a watcher couldn't be called
forth. I would also like to ask why travel to the metaplanes to summon a
great form if we used your theory?


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 2
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral mage & Summoning
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:19:49 EDT
On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:10:06 -0400 MC23 <mc23@**********.COM> writes:
>Loki once dared to write,
>
>>I say no. A mage can't sustain a spell while projecting. In my opinion
this
>>is because he's not tied to his physical body and thus not creating a
>>bridge to pull these energies into the physical plane.
> What does that have to do with sustaining? Grounding yes, but
>sustaining?

I think it matters if you're sustaining a spell where the target is on
the physical plane. You can't cast spells on the astral that require a
physical target (read: on the astral, you can't target spells at
someone/thing without an active astral presence). I'd say you can't
sustain a spell on the astral when the target is only on the physical.
But I don't have any actual quotes off-hand, so I don't know.

>>I rule the same for summoning. He's not physical and thus able to
>>accurately open a gate (via dancing, gesturing, crying out, or whatever
it
>>takes) to pull other forces/beings into this plane as well. Now this is
>>just my GM's opinion though.
> So there's no dancing (or any movement for that matter) in the
>Astral now? Elementals need the summoning supplies to be brought forth
>and perhaps nature spirits might need to be beckoned from within their
>domain and not just it's astral location. Now if that was the case then
>perhaps, but that would still not say why a watcher couldn't be called
>forth. I would also like to ask why travel to the metaplanes to summon a
>great form if we used your theory?

I agree with you, MC23. I have no problem with summoning Watchers on the
astral. Anything else, though, would be another story. My reasoning is
that a nature spirit requires its domain, an elemental its source
element. The Wather exists only on the Astral plain and is created from
Astral energy.

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, lobo1@****.com
let him prepare for war. canthros1@***.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 3
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral mage & Summoning
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:08:02 -0700
---MC23 wrote:
>
> Loki once dared to write,
>
> >I say no. A mage can't sustain a spell while projecting. In my
opinion this
> >is because he's not tied to his physical body and thus not creating
a
> >bridge to pull these energies into the physical plane.
> What does that have to do with sustaining? Grounding yes, but
> sustaining?

I don't have the book here at work, but I promise you SRII states you
cannot sustain a spell while astrally projecting. My reasoning above
is just how I explain it, since the book doesn't give alot of detail.

> >I rule the same for summoning. He's not physical and thus able to
> >accurately open a gate (via dancing, gesturing, crying out, or
whatever it
> >takes) to pull other forces/beings into this plane as well. Now
this is
> >just my GM's opinion though.
> So there's no dancing (or any movement for that matter) in the
> Astral now? Elementals need the summoning supplies to be brought
forth
> and perhaps nature spirits might need to be beckoned from within
their
> domain and not just it's astral location. Now if that was the case
then
> perhaps, but that would still not say why a watcher couldn't be
called
> forth. I would also like to ask why travel to the metaplanes to
summon a
> great form if we used your theory?

The astral quest is seperate. The test for the spirit to be
summoned/conjured takes place first. I don't have all the answers,
it's just my ruling as GM for our group, primarily for game balance.

However, I might be persuaded to allow a watcher to be summoned while
projecting since they're primarily a shunted off part of the mage's
own consciousness.

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: http://www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 4
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral mage & Summoning
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:34:55 -0700
---L Canthros wrote:

> >>I say no. A mage can't sustain a spell while projecting. In my
opinion
> this
> >>is because he's not tied to his physical body and thus not
creating a
> >>bridge to pull these energies into the physical plane.
> > What does that have to do with sustaining? Grounding yes, but
> >sustaining?
>
> I think it matters if you're sustaining a spell where the target is
on
> the physical plane. You can't cast spells on the astral that require
a
> physical target (read: on the astral, you can't target spells at
> someone/thing without an active astral presence). I'd say you can't
> sustain a spell on the astral when the target is only on the
physical.
> But I don't have any actual quotes off-hand, so I don't know.

SRII page 128 The last sentence under Sustained Spells: "Magicians may
maintain spells while astrally perceiving, but not while astrally
projecting."

That's where I'm basing my opinions from.

> I agree with you, MC23. I have no problem with summoning Watchers on
the
> astral. Anything else, though, would be another story. My reasoning
is
> that a nature spirit requires its domain, an elemental its source
> element. The Wather exists only on the Astral plain and is created
from
> Astral energy.

I mentioned this in an earier post. I actually agree with you there, I
would probably allow a Watcher to be summoned while projecting. The
Grimmy stats a Watcher is more like a piece of the conjurers awareness
that anything else. I still wouldn't allow a spirit to be conjured
while "out of body" though.

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: http://www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/


_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 5
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral mage & Summoning
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 19:56:39 EDT
On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 22:10:06 -0400 MC23 <mc23@**********.COM> writes:
>Loki once dared to write,

>>I rule the same for summoning. He's not physical and thus able to
>>accurately open a gate (via dancing, gesturing, crying out, or whatever
it
>>takes) to pull other forces/beings into this plane as well. Now this is
>>just my GM's opinion though.

> So there's no dancing (or any movement for that matter) in the
>Astral now? Elementals need the summoning supplies to be brought forth
>and perhaps nature spirits might need to be beckoned from within their
>domain and not just it's astral location. Now if that was the case then
>perhaps, but that would still not say why a watcher couldn't be called
>forth. I would also like to ask why travel to the metaplanes to summon
>a great form if we used your theory?

Also remember that when you summon a spirit it doesn't automatically
appear on the physical plane then grudingly stomp off to the dreaded
astral plane to await your commands.... quite the opposite. Astral space
is the HOME ground for spirits, they only come to they physical plane
because magicians force them to. I'd agree that you could summon nature
spirits and watchers in astral space (no physical componants required),
but justifying this for elementals is a bit more difficult. However, you
can just as easily summon the elemental somewhere/time else and then call
it forth (something you can't do with a nature spirit)... also why would
you waste the time required to conjure an ELEMENTAL in the astral plane,
you only have a short time as is with out taking the hours to do a
summoning.

~Tim (who doesn't buy into the "YOU MUST GESTURE FOR IT TO WORK!!"
philosophy)
Message no. 6
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral mage & Summoning
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 22:45:37 EDT
On Sun, 27 Apr 1997 16:34:55 -0700 Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM> writes:
<snip>
>SRII page 128 The last sentence under Sustained Spells: "Magicians may
>maintain spells while astrally perceiving, but not while astrally
>projecting."
>
>That's where I'm basing my opinions from.

This is yet another reason I have got to get a copy of the main book for
this game...

>> I agree with you, MC23. I have no problem with summoning Watchers on
the
>> astral. Anything else, though, would be another story. My reasoning is
>> that a nature spirit requires its domain, an elemental its source
>> element. The Wather exists only on the Astral plain and is created
from
>> Astral energy.
>
>I mentioned this in an earier post. I actually agree with you there, I
>would probably allow a Watcher to be summoned while projecting. The
>Grimmy stats a Watcher is more like a piece of the conjurers awareness
>that anything else. I still wouldn't allow a spirit to be conjured
>while "out of body" though.

I'll agree here, too. Summoning a watcher is one thing as its source
material is the energy of astral space and the astral mage is absolutely
swimming in that when he's projecting:) Any other kind of spirit,
however, requires a physical domain or source material to be summoned,
these are not present in a physical form on the astral plane (nothing is,
come to think of it).

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, lobo1@****.com
let him prepare for war. canthros1@***.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 7
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Astral mage & Summoning
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:23:48 +0100
On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, L Canthros wrote:

> I think it matters if you're sustaining a spell where the target is on
> the physical plane. You can't cast spells on the astral that require a
I agree though I do allow sustaining of spells which were cast whilst in
Astral Space and only have effects there eg spell barrier.


The Digital Mage aka Grant Erswell - mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Sadder still to watch it die, than never to have known it"
-Rush, Losing It
Message no. 8
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral mage & Summoning
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 00:46:04 -0400
Loki once dared to write,

>SRII page 128 The last sentence under Sustained Spells: "Magicians may
>maintain spells while astrally perceiving, but not while astrally
>projecting."
>
>That's where I'm basing my opinions from.

Yep, it says that. I wish there was an explanation why. Does anyone
care to give it a try. Loki your idea of needing a body to sustain a
spell doesn't work for me.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 9
From: "Mark E. Manhardt" <droopy@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Astral mage & Summoning
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:57:18 +0000
> From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
> Subject: Re: Astral mage & Summoning

> >SRII page 128 The last sentence under Sustained Spells: "Magicians may
> >maintain spells while astrally perceiving, but not while astrally
> >projecting."
> Yep, it says that. I wish there was an explanation why. Does anyone
> care to give it a try. Loki your idea of needing a body to sustain a
> spell doesn't work for me.

How about that it requires a certain amount of concentration to
maintain the spell that you can't produce while on walkabout? Kinda
like watching your food cook while watching TV in the other room.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 10
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Astral mage & Summoning
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:05:59 -0600
MC23 wrote:
|
| Loki once dared to write,
|
| >SRII page 128 The last sentence under Sustained Spells: "Magicians may
| >maintain spells while astrally perceiving, but not while astrally
| >projecting."
| >
| >That's where I'm basing my opinions from.
|
| Yep, it says that. I wish there was an explanation why. Does anyone
| care to give it a try. Loki your idea of needing a body to sustain a
| spell doesn't work for me.

Based on the grounding rules I think it has to do with a mage's
inability to cast spells on the physical plane from the astral. A
mage can't cast a spell from the astral to the physical, so he can't
sustain either (even though it's a moot point). <wow, I actually
used the word "moot" in a sentance :) >

Hmm, I think I thought of a way to do it, maybe. If you ground out a
spell through a focus or lock, the item is destroyed. However, if
you ground out through a dual natured being you don't necesarily kill
the being. So, if you ground out a sustainable spell through a dual
natured being you should be able to sustain it, as the conduit is
still open. I think :) I'm not sure exactly how grounding through
dual natured beings works (and am at work without the books) so I may
be way off base here.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 11
From: Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral mage & Summoning
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:03:00 MST
> >SRII page 128 The last sentence under Sustained Spells: "Magicians may
> >maintain spells while astrally perceiving, but not while astrally
> >projecting."

> Yep, it says that. I wish there was an explanation why. Does anyone
> care to give it a try. Loki your idea of needing a body to sustain a
> spell doesn't work for me.

It might be related to the fact that all drain is physical while projecting.
And why an elemental quickly dies while sustaining one of his wizard's
spells. If you get hit with a spell while astrally projecting, the damage
of the spell doesn't hurt you, it's the drain code that hits you.

So, it seems that magical energy is more raw and powerful in astral space,
and if the magician doesn't have his body to help shield/absorb the
drain/energy then he is exposed to its full effects. When you have your
body with you, drain is only mental, sustaining doesn't hurt you, and a
spell has to "ground" through you so it's drain code doesn't hurt you.

Also, IIRC, it doesn' matter what spell is cast at you while projecting, it
will hurt you even if it is a healing spell. This is because it is nothing
but magical energy at that point (before it grounds out). It is sort of a
living, dangerous thing. Like a barrier, if you try to attack or pass
through it, it will "strike" back with it's native energy.

What does this have to do with sustaining? <scratch head trying to remember
my point> Sustaining on the physical plane doesn't take too much, just some
concentration. But, there is a limit to how many spells you can sustain at
once. I don't remember offhand if that limit is based on skill, magic
attribute, or int/will, but I think the point is you are spending part of
your "magicalness" or psyche to sustain it. It isn't very hard.

But when you atrally project, this small effort become dangerous, and you
will quickly kill yourself with the drain of sustaining the spell with your
very psyche or magical essence.

If this is the case, then maybe you could rule that the magician loses one
point of essence for every turn spent sustaining a spell. And/or takes one
or two boxes of physical damage every turn as repercussion. It happens to
an elemental, so a mage shouldn't be able to do it any better.

Does that make sense? Any holes that you could summon a Great Spirit
through?

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com
Message no. 12
From: Brett Borger <SwiftOne@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Astral mage & Summoning
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:30:44 -0400
>How about that it requires a certain amount of concentration to
>maintain the spell that you can't produce while on walkabout? Kinda
>like watching your food cook while watching TV in the other room.

But I've done this!!!!

-=SwiftOne=-
(Okay, so I'm not sure how Scooby Doo and Herbie the Love Bug got in the
same show, and the food was REALLY cooked, but....)
Message no. 13
From: Mike Hartmann <hartmann@***********.M.EUNET.DE>
Subject: Re: Astral mage & Summoning
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:14:32 +0000
On 30 Apr 97 at 12:03, Denzil Kruse wrote:

> > >SRII page 128 The last sentence under Sustained Spells: "Magicians may
> > >maintain spells while astrally perceiving, but not while astrally
> > >projecting."
>
> > Yep, it says that. I wish there was an explanation why. Does anyone
> > care to give it a try. Loki your idea of needing a body to sustain a
> > spell doesn't work for me.
>
> It might be related to the fact that all drain is physical while projecting.
> And why an elemental quickly dies while sustaining one of his wizard's
> spells. If you get hit with a spell while astrally projecting, the damage
> of the spell doesn't hurt you, it's the drain code that hits you.

Huh? Ohh, you are referring to the "Astral Attack"-table on p. 147
SRII? I think that only applies when you try to attack a spell that
is sustained/quickened in order to disable it (eg when you attack the
invisibility spell that an opponent magician sustains on your
enemies or in order to intercept a spell that is going towards a
teammate). Otherwise spells do normal damage against astral
opponents (p148 right column, second-last section)


Bye Mike

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