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Message no. 1
From: honken101@********.net (Fredrik Holmqvist)
Subject: Astral Movement and Spirit stuff
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:48:51 +0200
Hey folks.

I did ask one of these questions but I don't think it reached the list, or
at least it was ignored. So here i try again.

In SR3 it says that "Movement is easy as thought" about Astral Movement.
How do you handle if a magic user wants to follow a car or other vehicle.
Since there is a gap between slow movement and fast movement. How easy is
it to keep track of a car and your bearings while moving at the fast
movement in small hops? And how much traffic is there in the Astral Space?

And how much things do you allow the nature spirits to do while they are
materialized. How intelligent are they and how do they understand modern
concepts?

/Honken
Message no. 2
From: quemener.yves@****.fr (Yves Quemener)
Subject: Astral Movement and Spirit stuff
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 17:23:22 +0200
Fredrik Holmqvist wrote:

> Hey folks.
>
> I did ask one of these questions but I don't think it reached the
> list, or at least it was ignored. So here i try again.
>
> In SR3 it says that "Movement is easy as thought" about Astral
> Movement. How do you handle if a magic user wants to follow a car or
> other vehicle. Since there is a gap between slow movement and fast
> movement. How easy is it to keep track of a car and your bearings
> while moving at the fast movement in small hops? And how much traffic
> is there in the Astral Space?

I can't find a reference but I always assumed that any astral being can
move slower than its maximum speed. Think of it : these 'hops' would go
at 6000 km/h for a starting character. Given that a 1/10 of second is
considered a good reaction time (even for non-muscular actions) it would
give you a minimum distance hop of 166 meters!
Following any (non-suborbital or semi-ballistic) vehicle should be very
easy for an astral being : it has no inertia, does not suffer from
acceleration, has a very high speed limit.

That is a reason why any serious vehicle should be protected by a 'rune'
(not sure of the english word, you know, this thingy that acts as a
permanent astral barrier that spell any mage can make for a moderate
cost...)

> And how much things do you allow the nature spirits to do while they
> are materialized. How intelligent are they and how do they understand
> modern concepts?

Each order is a service : attack them, detach the trailer of the truck.
Orders such as : go hack this computer are irrealists because spirits or
elementals have difficulties to understand or even see (while in astral)
high tech objects. I would think that a cyberdeck would be as invisible
for a spirit as the spirit is for your average mundane decker.


Yves
Message no. 3
From: papasm@***.net (Michael Papas)
Subject: Astral Movement and Spirit stuff
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:34:10 -0700
-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
[mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Fredrik
Holmqvist
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 7:49 AM
To: Shadowrun Discussion
Subject: Astral Movement and Spirit stuff

>>Hey folks.

>>I did ask one of these questions but I don't think it reached the
list,
>>or at least it was ignored. So here i try again.

I do not believe I was signed-up for this list at that time, but sure,
whatever. Let me see what I can do to answer your question.

>>In SR3 it says that "Movement is easy as thought" about Astral
Movement.
>>How do you handle if a magic user wants to follow a car or other
vehicle.
>>Since there is a gap between slow movement and fast movement. How easy
is
>>it to keep track of a car and your bearings while moving at the fast
>>movement in small hops? And how much traffic is there in the Astral
Space?

As slow astral movement and fast astral movement are simply a measure of
convenience - to emulate both the speed of and the environment in the
astral realms - I would say that they would be using 'fast movement with
baby steps'. As long as they are aware that they are taking
environmental penalties for moving faster than is comfortable (their
astral cruising speed, if you will) and they are not moving faster than
their actual 'fast movement', they can keep up with anything they want
to while astral.

As for the traffic situation ... a lot. There is a near infinity of
nature spirits, ally spirits hovering over people, elementals and
spirits of the elements keeping the world working, free spirits coming
by to have a look-see, all the dual-natured critters and any projecting
mage in the area. And that is just the active astral presences!

I have always assumed by default that the astral is as busy as the
material environment. I could be wrong here, yet that is how I see it.

>>And how much things do you allow the nature spirits to do while they
are
>>materialized. How intelligent are they and how do they understand
modern
>>concepts?

Depends on the spirit and its experiences. A spirit of man would
understand modern concepts a lot better than your average human. A
spirit of nature? Subject to their location ... if they are part of an
environment that has a lot of metahumans running around, they understand
something of the sort anywise.

As for what the spirit can do? Anything that the spirit will agree to,
that the shaman can talk them into, and that would be reasonable for a
being made out of their substance. Creativity is to be encouraged.
Have fun.

>>/Honken

- Michael R Papas
"To always strive higher!"
Message no. 4
From: papasm@***.net (Michael Papas)
Subject: Astral Movement and Spirit stuff
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:43:37 -0700
-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
[mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Yves Quemener

>>Each order is a service : attack them, detach the trailer of the
truck.
>>Orders such as : go hack this computer are irrealists because spirits
or
>>elementals have difficulties to understand or even see (while in
astral)
>>high tech objects. I would think that a cyberdeck would be as
invisible
>>for a spirit as the spirit is for your average mundane decker.

I agree with the order = service portion, and the difficulty a spirit
would have using a computer, yet I disagree that the cyberdeck would be
as invisible to the spirit as the spirit is to the decker.

The cyberdeck would be pale, faded, see-through and very difficult to
interact with ... but not invisible. It is there - just like that wall
is there, just like that street sign is there - in the astral, as such
the spirit could perceive it ... especially any emotional attachment the
decker might have towards the cyber-deck that lets them do the wonderful
things they do. Unless every decker in your game is very different from
the geeks (which I am one of) that are 'proud' of their 'baby' (their
computer) that they hand-built/hand-assembled ... and does not get
attached to their toys.

If you would like, I can try to find a page reference to defend my
statement. The above is common-sense to me, but I do remember reading
such in the main book. Your mileage may vary, of course.

>>Yves

- Michael R Papas
"To always strive higher!"
Message no. 5
From: quemener.yves@****.fr (Yves Quemener)
Subject: Astral Movement and Spirit stuff
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 18:03:20 +0200
Michael Papas wrote:

>-----Original Message-----
>From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
>[mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Yves Quemener
>
>
>
>>>Each order is a service : attack them, detach the trailer of the
>>>
>>>
>truck.
>
>
>>>Orders such as : go hack this computer are irrealists because spirits
>>>
>>>
>or
>
>
>>>elementals have difficulties to understand or even see (while in
>>>
>>>
>astral)
>
>
>>>high tech objects. I would think that a cyberdeck would be as
>>>
>>>
>invisible
>
>
>>>for a spirit as the spirit is for your average mundane decker.
>>>
>>>
>
>I agree with the order = service portion, and the difficulty a spirit
>would have using a computer, yet I disagree that the cyberdeck would be
>as invisible to the spirit as the spirit is to the decker.
>
>The cyberdeck would be pale, faded, see-through and very difficult to
>interact with ... but not invisible. It is there - just like that wall
>is there, just like that street sign is there - in the astral, as such
>the spirit could perceive it ... especially any emotional attachment the
>decker might have towards the cyber-deck that lets them do the wonderful
>things they do. Unless every decker in your game is very different from
>the geeks (which I am one of) that are 'proud' of their 'baby' (their
>computer) that they hand-built/hand-assembled ... and does not get
>attached to their toys.
>
>If you would like, I can try to find a page reference to defend my
>statement. The above is common-sense to me, but I do remember reading
>such in the main book. Your mileage may vary, of course.
>
Sorry, I used a very bad comparison. True, a computer would be visible
for a spirit but probably as an unintelligible mess of uber-tech stuff.
It would be possible for a spirit to confuse a motor engine for a
cyberdeck for instance. But I agree with the emotionnal link statement,
this is the main 'sense' one can use in astral. If one gives a spirit
the order to attack anyone wielding a gun, the spirit wouldn't "see" if
the object the other guy hold is a gun or a credstick but it would see
that the guy wants to kill someone with that.

Yves
Message no. 6
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Astral Movement and Spirit stuff
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:38:14 +0200
According to Yves Quemener, on Wednesday 04 August 2004 17:23 the word on
the street was...

> Following any (non-suborbital or semi-ballistic) vehicle should be very
> easy for an astral being : it has no inertia, does not suffer from
> acceleration, has a very high speed limit.

Easy only as long as you can reasonably predict where it's going to go.
That 166 meters is about an American city block, so if you jump to the
next crossroads but the car you're following decides to turn into an alley
halfway down that block, you've just lost it.

> That is a reason why any serious vehicle should be protected by a 'rune'
> (not sure of the english word, you know, this thingy that acts as a
> permanent astral barrier that spell any mage can make for a moderate
> cost...)

A ward.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Astral Movement and Spirit stuff
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 11:09:04 -0700 (PDT)
> > Following any (non-suborbital or semi-ballistic) vehicle should
> > be very easy for an astral being : it has no inertia, does not
> > suffer from acceleration, has a very high speed limit.

> Easy only as long as you can reasonably predict where it's going to
> go. That 166 meters is about an American city block, so if you
> jump to the next crossroads but the car you're following decides to
> turn into an alley halfway down that block, you've just lost it.

I have, for some time now, allowed projecting mages to boost slow
movement much like sprinting, and slow fast movement as well. I have
them roll Willpower, TN 4. Every success raises (or lowers) their
effective attribute rating for calculating slow movment. Each test
is a Complex Action, and the boost lasts for one Initiative pass.
Outside of combat, I allow the boost to last until they want to
change speeds again or for about 30 seconds, whichever comes sooner
(cuts down on dice rolls). Alternately, they can use the same roll
to raise (or lower) their effective attribute rating for calculating
fast movement. The effect still requires a complex action, and lasts
about as long (one pass or about 30 seconds). Thus, a mage can try
and keep up with a vehicle by "walking" faster, or "running" slower.
Both are difficult, but possible.

Now, I let watchers move at any speed up to their maximum, in perfect
gradation. Thus, a watcher can be told "follow that aura until it
stops for longer than X and then report to me". The watcher will
then perfectly match speeds with the aura, up to its max movement.
It can report back to the mage, and lead him to where the aura
stopped, and quickly.

Side note: Watchers see a LOT of use in my games for tailing and
message passing. I have a bat shaman in the group who has watchers
manifest as a whisper that sounds almost exactly like her voice. The
team members all think she is right there, whispering in their ear
from astral space, when in fact she is usually somewhere else and
just sending a message.

> > (not sure of the english word, you know, this thingy that acts as
> > a permanent astral barrier that spell any mage can make for a
> > moderate cost...)

> A ward.

I don't know if I consider wards moderate in their cost. :) Down
right pricey really.

======Korishinzo
--a warded car... just the thing to drive around tripping projecting mages



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Message no. 8
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Astral Movement and Spirit stuff
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 20:25:54 +0200
According to Ice Heart, on Wednesday 04 August 2004 20:09 the word on the
street was...

> I don't know if I consider wards moderate in their cost. :) Down
> right pricey really.

Not in SR3 -- they're essentially free, unless you want to hire a magician
to set one, in which case you pay about 100 nuyen per hour it takes for
them to create it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Astral Movement and Spirit stuff
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 20:33:29 +0200
Le 4 août 2004, à 20:25, Gurth a écrit :

> Not in SR3 -- they're essentially free, unless you want to hire a
> magician
> to set one, in which case you pay about 100 nuyen per hour it takes for
> them to create it.

Mmh... I thought (semi-)permanent wards cost Karma?
Either way, I always thought vehicles couldn't be warded, or to be
more precise that the ward vanished as soon as the vehicle started
moving... Have I been wrong all this time? (and in that case, what can
and cannot be warded?)

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 10
From: honken101@********.net (Fredrik Holmqvist)
Subject: Astral Movement and Spirit stuff
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 21:38:25 +0200
At 17:23 2004-08-04, you wrote:

>Each order is a service : attack them, detach the trailer of the truck.
>Orders such as : go hack this computer are irrealists because spirits or
>elementals have difficulties to understand or even see (while in astral)
>high tech objects. I would think that a cyberdeck would be as invisible
>for a spirit as the spirit is for your average mundane decker.

Well, i understand that computers is a bit too over the edge for spirits,
and opening doors for a city spirit could be fairly easy since it's not a
very complicated matter. But unlocking the door (if there is a key
present)? Or in your case, would a spirit know how to detach the trailer?
I've never driven any heavier then a Van, and i have no clue on how to
deattach the trailer from a truck.

/Honken
Message no. 11
From: shane@**************.freeserve.co.uk (Shane Mclean)
Subject: Astral Movement and Spirit stuff
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 22:00:15 +0100
> opening doors for a city spirit could be fairly easy since it's not a
> very complicated matter. But unlocking the door (if there is a key
> present)?

Doors are a big part of a city, so I'd rule unlocking them wouldn't be a
problem if there is akey present, the same for hearth spirits and might even
allow the hearthers a Force (OR) roll to pick simple mechanical locks. A
desert spirit or mountain spirit I might even rule could not open a door
without smashing it, as doors just aren't common enough there. I know there
are cabins in mountains and towns in the desert, but they aren't part of the
cencept, the *soul*, of the places so wouldn't be comprehendable to the
spirit - they would be a hearth/city (as applicable) spirit domain.

IMHO, magic should be coloured a lot by concept in this way.

As always, YMMV.

Shane
Message no. 12
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Astral Movement and Spirit stuff
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 11:09:29 +0200
According to Max Noel, on Wednesday 04 August 2004 20:33 the word on the
street was...

> Mmh... I thought (semi-)permanent wards cost Karma?

Permanent wards cost Karma equal to their Force, yes; ones that last a
number of weeks equal to your successes don't. I think you'll usually find
that ones lasting several weeks are enough for most people :)

> Either way, I always thought vehicles couldn't be warded, or to be
> more precise that the ward vanished as soon as the vehicle started
> moving... Have I been wrong all this time? (and in that case, what can
> and cannot be warded?)

The rules for warding specifically mention vehicles as something that _can_
be warded, but make things slightly difficult by then saying "A ward
cannot be moved from its physical component to another location." I take
that to mean that a ward, if put onto a vehicle, will travel along with
the vehicle, but cannot be "attached" to another vehicle, building, etc.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: geoff@*************.co.uk (Euphonium)
Subject: Astral Movement and Spirit stuff
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 08:53:34 +0100
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Fredrik Holmqvist" <honken101@********.net>
>To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 3:48 PM
>Subject: Astral Movement and Spirit stuff
> In SR3 it says that "Movement is easy as thought" about Astral
Movement.
> How do you handle if a magic user wants to follow a car or other
vehicle.
> Since there is a gap between slow movement and fast movement. How
easy is
> it to keep track of a car and your bearings while moving at the fast
> movement in small hops? And how much traffic is there in the Astral
Space?
>

We allow an astral magician to travel at any speed s/he wants up to
their maximum. After all, on the physical you can walk/run at almost
any speed you want from near stationary to flat-out sprint, and since
astral movment doesn't require coordination of physical limbs it
should be easier.

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