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Message no. 1
From: "love is blind - it will hit you like a weed whacker one day..."
Subject: astral projection
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 92 09:32:00 EST
for a good reference on how astral projection *might* be run i recommend
Marvel Comics Dr. Strange. astral projection is the good doctor's trade
mark and he uses it often. check it out.

pat

"The GamesMaster"
Message no. 2
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Astral Projection
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 01:41:53 -0500
A mage is astrally projecting to a place where he decides he wants to become
visible on the physical plane. When the mage becomes visible, what does he
look like? A solid version of his idealized image? A transparent image? A
glowing "I'm a living object in astral space" image?

What I'm trying to get is some idea of how bystanders and passerbys would
react to or how they would notice the mage. Things like a glowing aura or a
bright as living-thing-in-astral-space would be rather easy to spot [out of
the corner of your eye] or tell that it's a visible astral mage. A
shimmering glow or a slight transparent effect would be harder to tell, and
a casual observer might think that it's just a normal person standing there.

Thermographic vision wouldn't be able to spot a visible astral mage, would
it? I'm thinking no heat signature to stand out from the surrounding area.

Thoughts? Comments? Grounding through elves?

-Thomas Deeny
Cartoonist At Large

"We've had reports of a psychotic masked man in a stupid costume beating the
crap out of hoboes in this area! What do you know about it?"
-"The" Batman (about to beat the crap out of a hobo), _Sergio Aragones
Destroys DC_
Message no. 3
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:27:15 GMT
Faux Pas writes

> A mage is astrally projecting to a place where he decides he wants to become
> visible on the physical plane. When the mage becomes visible, what does he
> look like? A solid version of his idealized image? A transparent image? A
> glowing "I'm a living object in astral space" image?
>
The books and novels are rather unclear on this one. I would tend to
say a slighty ghostly version of his/her idealised image (which
includes cloathes of your choice). There is a picture of Keane in
manifest from in 'A killing glare' but art is not the best info
source :(.
I would say it was fairly obvious the form was not real, looks a bit
ghostly or see through. I have a ruling that at grade 6 or more
initates can overcome that but so far only Keane (no he hasn't needed
stats creating) has taken advantage of that and no PC yet has made
grade 6.

> What I'm trying to get is some idea of how bystanders and passerbys would
> react to or how they would notice the mage. Things like a glowing aura or a
> bright as living-thing-in-astral-space would be rather easy to spot [out of
> the corner of your eye] or tell that it's a visible astral mage. A
> shimmering glow or a slight transparent effect would be harder to tell, and
> a casual observer might think that it's just a normal person standing there.
>
A very quick glance might be fooled normally but things like, hes not
standing as if hes got weight will be giveaways to carefull
inspection.

> Thermographic vision wouldn't be able to spot a visible astral mage, would
> it? I'm thinking no heat signature to stand out from the surrounding area.
>
I would say correct.

> Thoughts? Comments?
see above.

> Grounding through elves?
>
Make sure its at an illuminate meeting, wouldn't want to miss any :)

> -Thomas Deeny
> Cartoonist At Large
>
Mark
Message no. 4
From: Jeff Perrin <jperrin@*********.net>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 06:55:47 -0400
Faux Pas wrote:
>
> A mage is astrally projecting to a place where he decides he wants to become
> visible on the physical plane. When the mage becomes visible, what does he
> look like? A solid version of his idealized image? A transparent image? A
> glowing "I'm a living object in astral space" image?

I personally would give the player a choice...his natural appearance, his astral
appearance, or a humanoid visage within reason (no impersonations). And if the
mage wants then he can glow, beacon of light, or appear realatively normal. But
remember that you can attack manifesting spirits and I would allow for attacking
manifesting mages (PhysAds are very lethal when fighting manifested things
especially if they have sorcery). And as I recall things manifested mages arent
truely solid.

> Thermographic vision wouldn't be able to spot a visible astral mage, would
> it? I'm thinking no heat signature to stand out from the surrounding area.

something that isn't really there has no heat signature (it is a manifestation
after all and not matter transferance)

--
Luc aka BobW

EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME!
BUT THE CORPSE STILL HAS THE FLOOR!!
--Kevin Spacey as Lloyd in The Ref (1994)
Message no. 5
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Astral Projection -Reply
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:48:56 -0500
I don't believe there are any "official" rulings on this, so the entire rest of
this post
is IMHO.

Because of the nature of astral space (related to thought, emotion, spirits and life
as opposed to mere matter), I say that an astral mage's appearance would be
"telepathic" rather than physical. By this I mean that everyone will see
something
and their brain will say "There's Dave, but he's not really there" but cameras
and
other tech stuff will not register him. Cybereyes will perceive him because of the
essence cost etc. The details of the appearance will be filled in by the viewers
brain, so everyone will agree that it was Dave (if they have met him physically),
and that he wasn't "real" in some way, but the details would be culturally
dependent on the _VIEWER_. Most of us westerners would see him as a
transparant ghost like aparition IMHO. Japanese viewers might notice he had no
feet. Aboriginal australians would see him with very pale skin. Just after the
awakening, before the existance of magicians was understood by your average
person, a devout religious person might see a saint or angel, complete with halo
or wings ( or devil with horns and tail ).

I would rule that if a mage wanted to, he could try to change how he was
perceived slightly by an opposed willpower test, but only to make the perception
more accurate, not to obfuscate. After all, one's aura reveals the truth about
someone, so lying about one's self should be almost impossible. Initiates with
masking might be an exception. In other words, one should be able to say "I am
not an angel, just a man" and perhaps your halo and wings would go away. On
the other hand, if you say "I am an angel", you are just going to convince the
viewer that you are a liar. I would never allow a projecting mage to fool someone
into thinking they were physically present, unless the viewer didn't believe in
magic at all and so their mind would not admit that the person might NOT be
there.

You should always be able to recognize a friend. If you see a mage astrally and
later meet him physically, you might be able to recognize him if you can "see"
some of his personality ( can't do it from a photograph, but if you hear him speak,
watch him walk, it might ring a bell ).

Again, the above is completely in my humble opionion.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 6
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:49:04 -0600 (MDT)
Double Domed Mike Wrote:
|
|I don't believe there are any "official" rulings on this, so the entire
|rest of this post is IMHO.

Ditto for my response.

|Because of the nature of astral space (related to thought, emotion,
|spirits and life as opposed to mere matter), I say that an astral
|mage's appearance would be "telepathic" rather than physical. By this
|I mean that everyone will see something and their brain will say
|"There's Dave, but he's not really there" but cameras and other tech
|stuff will not register him. Cybereyes will perceive him because of
|the essence cost etc. The details of the appearance will be filled in
|by the viewers brain, so everyone will agree that it was Dave (if they
|have met him physically), and that he wasn't "real" in some way, but
|the details would be culturally dependent on the _VIEWER_. Most of us
|westerners would see him as a transparant ghost like aparition IMHO.
|Japanese viewers might notice he had no feet. Aboriginal australians
|would see him with very pale skin. Just after the awakening, before
|the existance of magicians was understood by your average person, a
|devout religious person might see a saint or angel, complete with halo
|or wings ( or devil with horns and tail ).

That's not how I would do it. I would just say that his astral form becomes
visible on the physical plane. Even technology would be able to see it. And
the appearance would be exactly the same as his appearance in astral space
(which would be based on his personality, beliefs and willpower - not his
physical appearance).

|I would rule that if a mage wanted to, he could try to change how he
|was perceived slightly by an opposed willpower test, but only to make
|the perception more accurate, not to obfuscate. After all, one's aura
|reveals the truth about someone, so lying about one's self should be
|almost impossible. Initiates with masking might be an exception. In
|other words, one should be able to say "I am not an angel, just a man"
|and perhaps your halo and wings would go away. On the other hand, if
|you say "I am an angel", you are just going to convince the viewer that
|you are a liar. I would never allow a projecting mage to fool someone
|into thinking they were physically present, unless the viewer didn't
|believe in magic at all and so their mind would not admit that the
|person might NOT be there.

Now that's a good idea. I like the idea of allowing mages to alter their
astral appearance (on a tempororary basis) based on willpower and initiate
level. Or maybe on magic...hmmmmm.

|You should always be able to recognize a friend. If you see a mage
|astrally and later meet him physically, you might be able to recognize
|him if you can "see" some of his personality ( can't do it from a
|photograph, but if you hear him speak, watch him walk, it might ring a
|bell ).

I like this one too. I'm already getting an idea for an adventure where
the characters are repeatedly attacked by a mage from astral space. At
the end of the adventure they make the connection and realize that a
person who has befriended them from the beginning and the astral mage
are one and the same.It would probably work best if the astral presence
were male and the physical mage was female.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 7
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection -Reply
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:30:31 -0500
<snip adventure idea about recognizing astral mage>
>It would probably work best if the astral presence were male and the physical
>mage was female.

Go with whatever makes the better story, but for what it is worth, AFAIK, people
who feel they are women trapped in a man's body are much more common than
people who feel they are men trapped in a woman's body. No one knows why,
but reverse transexuals just don't seem to happen. I'd go for the man with a
woman's astral image.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 8
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:07:02 +0200
On 18.06.96, Jeff Perrin wrote about "Re: Astral Projection":
[how does a astral projecting magician visible on physical plane look like?]
> I personally would give the player a choice...his natural appearance, his astral
> appearance, or a humanoid visage within reason (no impersonations). And if the
> mage wants then he can glow, beacon of light, or appear realatively normal.
Hm, the Grimoire, p. 86 says "[...] an astrally projecting character can become
visible on the physical plane if he wishes." I would believe "visible"
means
the (idealized self-) image of the magician would become visible, not some
kind of illusion.

> But
> remember that you can attack manifesting spirits and I would allow for attacking
> manifesting mages (PhysAds are very lethal when fighting manifested things
> especially if they have sorcery). And as I recall things manifested mages arent
> truely solid.
They are NOT manifesting! When manifest, a spirit can handle physical objects
(like hurling a Street Sam around), but a "visible" projecting magician CAN'T.
He can just hear and be heard. No touching, sorry...

> > Thermographic vision wouldn't be able to spot a visible astral mage, would
> > it? I'm thinking no heat signature to stand out from the surrounding area.
>
> something that isn't really there has no heat signature (it is a manifestation
> after all and not matter transferance)
I'd agree, since light is reflected by the magician (if you don't use the
"light bulb effect" mentioned above :-), while heat radiation would have to
be created by the image that can't act physicaly. which wouldn't be logical
as I understand it (hm... physicans? Any better explanations?)

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 9
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection -Reply
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:18:08 -0500
Sascha Pabst wrote:
>I'd agree, since light is reflected by the magician (if you don't use the
>"light bulb effect" mentioned above :-), while heat radiation would have to
be
>created by the image that can't act physicaly. which wouldn't be logical as I
>understand it (hm... physicans? Any better explanations?)

Well, IMHO this is better solved by saying that the non-corporial mage _doesn't_
reflect light, he just appears in the hearts and minds of the viewers. See my
previous post. Photons are physical (and have mass!), and while one could
come up with an explanation about why you can't effect macroscopic things but
can effect quantum things, why bother? Astral is Astral, reality is reality.

Not everyone likes this approach :)

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 10
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Astral Projection -Reply
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:26:26 -0600 (MDT)
Mike Elkins wrote:
|
|<snip adventure idea about recognizing astral mage>
|>It would probably work best if the astral presence were male and the physical
|>mage was female.
|
|Go with whatever makes the better story, but for what it is worth,
AFAIK, people |who feel they are women trapped in a man's body are much
more common than |people who feel they are men trapped in a woman's
body. No one knows why, |but reverse transexuals just don't seem to
happen. I'd go for the man with a |woman's astral image. |

I was pretty much going with the man in a woman's body as a more
apealing story idea. Less chance that the Players would figure out what
was going on. There's been quite a few movies that use male transexuals
as the bad guy (Silence of the Lambs for example) and with that amount
of exposure I think my players would figure that out quicker. I do
agree that it occurs much more often with men than women. But I see
this as yet another reason to go the other way with the story. The last
reason I have is that I think it would be much more fun for the demure
woman (concealing her true self) to suddenly change into a dominant
agressive opponent in the final scene (hopefully catching the PCs
completely off guard, "What do you mean I have to resist a Force 10
Hellblast?!" :)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 11
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:49:48 -0600 (MDT)
Sascha Pabst wrote:
|
|Hm, the Grimoire, p. 86 says "[...] an astrally projecting character
|can become visible on the physical plane if he wishes." I would believe
|"visible" means the (idealized self-) image of the magician would
|become visible, not some kind of illusion.

Thank you very much for finding that rule. Somehow I completely missed it
and when I ran a published adventure and a mage's astral form appeared on
the physical, I had no idea what was going on or how to explain it to my
players. I've been looking for it off and on for about two years now.

Thanks,
-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 12
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:40:26 -0500
At 06:55 AM 6/18/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Faux Pas wrote:
>>
>> A mage is astrally projecting to a place where he decides he wants to become
>> visible on the physical plane.

>remember that you can attack manifesting spirits and I would allow for
attacking
>manifesting mages (PhysAds are very lethal when fighting manifested things
>especially if they have sorcery). And as I recall things manifested mages
arent
>truely solid.

But they aren't really manifesting - that is, becoming a solid object that
can interact with the real world - if I'm reading the one paragraph in the
Grimmything correctly. They're simply making themselves visible to the
physical world in order to converse with people.

-Thomas Deeny
Cartoonist At Large

"We've had reports of a psychotic masked man in a stupid costume beating the
crap out of hoboes in this area! What do you know about it?"
-"The" Batman (about to beat the crap out of a hobo), _Sergio Aragones
Destroys DC_
Message no. 13
From: Jeff Perrin <jperrin@*********.net>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:45:25 -0400
Sascha Pabst wrote:
> Hm, the Grimoire, p. 86 says "[...] an astrally projecting character can become
> visible on the physical plane if he wishes." I would believe "visible"
means
> the (idealized self-) image of the magician would become visible, not some
> kind of illusion.

never said anything illusionary. within reason because of a munckin/rules
manipulator that I role play with.

> > But
> > remember that you can attack manifesting spirits and I would allow for attacking
> > manifesting mages (PhysAds are very lethal when fighting manifested things
> > especially if they have sorcery). And as I recall things manifested mages arent
> > truely solid.
> They are NOT manifesting! When manifest, a spirit can handle physical objects
> (like hurling a Street Sam around), but a "visible" projecting magician
CAN'T.
> He can just hear and be heard. No touching, sorry...

I know the mage cant have any interaction with the real world when projecting from
astral space. I used manifesting because it has been about a year since I have
looked in a shadowrun book and my Shadowrun main book is 800 or so miles away at my
parent's house. And I have been toying with the idea that a mage projecting from
astral space can be attacked the same way a manifesting spirit could be attacked.

--
Luc aka BobW

EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME!
BUT THE CORPSE STILL HAS THE FLOOR!!
--Kevin Spacey as Lloyd in The Ref (1994)
Message no. 14
From: Jeff Perrin <jperrin@*********.net>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection -Reply
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:48:39 -0400
Mike Elkins wrote:
> Well, IMHO this is better solved by saying that the non-corporial mage _doesn't_
> reflect light, he just appears in the hearts and minds of the viewers. See my
> previous post. Photons are physical (and have mass!), and while one could
> come up with an explanation about why you can't effect macroscopic things but
> can effect quantum things, why bother? Astral is Astral, reality is reality.

I would instead say it is a venting of astral energy. The astral mage exposing
him/her-self by pushing some astral into corperal(sp). But hey I always had my own view
of the way magic should be :).

--
Luc aka BobW

EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME!
BUT THE CORPSE STILL HAS THE FLOOR!!
--Kevin Spacey as Lloyd in The Ref (1994)
Message no. 15
From: Rick Jones <rick@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:55:18 -0500 (CDT)
I say that mages astrally "manifesting" look like a ghostly version of
their astral self. But I did have one guy play an astral adept, and he
could make his astral image look solid and change it's appearance (only
human shapes - he couldn't appear as a fire elemental or a bug sprit). Of
course, he couldn't touch anything, but he was a great scout.

--
Rick Jones Mrs. Hayden knocked again twice and then twice
rick@******.com more. Christ, a secret code. Made you wish Ian
Meyrick@***.com Fleming had taken up music or something.
http://www-ece.rice.edu/~rickj/ --Spenser, The Godwulf Manuscript
Message no. 16
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection -Reply
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:17:43 +0200
On 18.06.96, Mike Elkins wrote about "Re: Astral Projection -Reply":
[magician reflectin light (IMHO)]
> Well, IMHO this is better solved by saying that the non-corporial mage _doesn't_
> reflect light, he just appears in the hearts and minds of the viewers. See my
> previous post. Photons are physical (and have mass!), and while one could
> come up with an explanation about why you can't effect macroscopic things but
> can effect quantum things, why bother? Astral is Astral, reality is reality.

But how can one "appear in the hearts and minds of the viewers" if the viewers
may not even know the magician? The Grimythingy doesn't mention you may be
visible to people who know you, but says something about "being visible".
That's why I thought of the "reflecting light", although you are -now that I
think about it- right that photons have mass...

I guess that's another question of GM's style to handle magic...

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 17
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection -Reply
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:14:06 -0400 (EDT)
At 01:17 AM 6/19/96 +0200, Sascha wrote:
>On 18.06.96, Mike Elkins wrote about "Re: Astral Projection -Reply":

>[magician reflectin light (IMHO)]

>> Well, IMHO this is better solved by saying that the non-corporial mage
>>_doesn't_ reflect light, he just appears in the hearts and minds of the
>>viewers.

>But how can one "appear in the hearts and minds of the viewers" if the
viewers
>may not even know the magician? The Grimythingy doesn't mention you may be
>visible to people who know you, but says something about "being visible".

And what about the poor watcher that decides to try and manifest?
I'm getting this terrible "Clap if you believe in Twinkerbelle!" flashback...

>That's why I thought of the "reflecting light", although you are -now that I

>think about it- right that photons have mass...

Eh, that's a detail I don't worry about.

--
"I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
- Jeff Dahmer
Message no. 18
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:44:40 GMT
Sascha Pabst writes
>
> > But
> > remember that you can attack manifesting spirits and I would allow for attacking

> > manifesting mages (PhysAds are very lethal when fighting manifested things
> > especially if they have sorcery). And as I recall things manifested mages arent

> > truely solid.
> They are NOT manifesting! When manifest, a spirit can handle physical objects
> (like hurling a Street Sam around), but a "visible" projecting magician
CAN'T.
> He can just hear and be heard. No touching, sorry...
>
Well you can touch but you won't do any harm. Basically as the form
with a physical part has right of way hitting a manifested magician
will just send the poor soul flying, won't hurt (even with a weapon
focus if you don't have percept up - if you do well thats astral
combat and it will, like mad) him/her but you may well really annoy
the mage, after all spinning out of control is no fun.

Mark
Message no. 19
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection -Reply
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:35:55 GMT
Sascha Pabst writes

i seem to be replying to a lot of your mail today :)
>
> But how can one "appear in the hearts and minds of the viewers" if the
viewers
> may not even know the magician? The Grimythingy doesn't mention you may be
> visible to people who know you, but says something about "being visible".
> That's why I thought of the "reflecting light", although you are -now that
I
> think about it- right that photons have mass...
>
Ah but so do bacteria and astral travel assumes you can push those
out of the way, along with most things under a few mm long (pollen
grains, tiny insects etc).

> I guess that's another question of GM's style to handle magic...
>
Mark
Message no. 20
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection -Reply -Reply
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:18:54 -0500
After reading the other posts on this thread, I still think my strategy is better, but
I don't seem to be convincing anyone. Oh well, I guess it'll just be a house rule :)

Sascha wrote:
>But how can one "appear in the hearts and minds of the viewers" if the
viewers
>may not even know the magician?

I reply:
Why do you need to know someone to appear to them telepathically? Your brain
(not your eyes) perceives a stranger over there, and you "see" him. I think of
it
sort of like assensing an aura, but mundane minds fill in the details however they
like.
If you ask witnesses to a crime (or other event) what a stranger looked like, the
more details you try to get, the more people will disagree. What seems to happen
is that you see someone, your brain picks out the important details (like he had a
gun) and throws the rest away. If you try real hard to remember details that
aren't there anymore, your brain will make them up based on what it thinks are
good probabilities.
In shadowrun, I would GM it like this "You see a person in the corner, but they
don't seem really there." Player: "What do you mean not really there?"
GM:
"It looks like an image, or a ghost or something". Player: "What does he
look
like?" GM: "It seems more like a she, and you can't really tell, but she says
to
you "Obi Wan Kenobe, you are our only hope..."" Player: "Is she
pretty?" GM:
"She seems noble of heart." Player: "Yeah, but is she pretty?" GM:
"You just
couldn't tell. She has faded away now."

If they player later met the magician, she would seem a little familiar if he made a
perception roll.

Anyway, that's how I would do things.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 21
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:26:59 +0200
On 19.06.96, Mark Steedman wrote about "Re: Astral Projection":
["visible" projecting magicians not manifest]
> Well you can touch but you won't do any harm. Basically as the form
> with a physical part has right of way hitting a manifested magician
> will just send the poor soul flying, won't hurt (even with a weapon
> focus if you don't have percept up - if you do well thats astral
> combat and it will, like mad) him/her but you may well really annoy
> the mage, after all spinning out of control is no fun.
You are right... but since the magician is not manifest, he will still
follow the astral movement rules. And if you try to hit someone who
moves at Quickness* 4 meters for slow or Magic * 1000 KILOmetres for
fast movement will sure make you look silly :-)

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 22
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection -Reply
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:26:52 +0200
On 19.06.96, Mark Steedman wrote about "Re: Astral Projection -Reply":
> Sascha Pabst writes
[stuff about "visible" astrally projecting magicians]
> i seem to be replying to a lot of your mail today :)
Yup, and that's good, 'course...

> Ah but so do bacteria and astral travel assumes you can push those
> out of the way, along with most things under a few mm long (pollen
> grains, tiny insects etc).
... _that_ is a thing I didn't think of, and it's just genius! Now
I am fully convinced a "visible" projecting magician will be visible
in cameras, too.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 23
From: Marc Lipshitz <MLIPSHIT@****.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection -Reply -Reply
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:44:55 +0200
>>> David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.org> 18/June/1996 07:26pm >>>
I was pretty much going with the man in a woman's body as a more
apealing story idea. Less chance that the Players would figure out what
was going on. There's been quite a few movies that use male
transexuals as the bad guy (Silence of the Lambs for example) and with
that amount of exposure I think my players would figure that out quicker. I
do agree that it occurs much more often with men than women. But I see
this as yet another reason to go the other way with the story. The last
reason I have is that I think it would be much more fun for the demure
woman (concealing her true self) to suddenly change into a dominant
agressive opponent in the final scene (hopefully catching the PCs
completely off guard, "What do you mean I have to resist a Force 10
Hellblast?!" :)
-David


I don't know how rare it is in other countries, but here in South Africa
theres recently been a lot of publicity on female to male operations. The
figure given was 4 since the start of the year, but no comparative
figures for male to female changes were given.

Marc Lipshitz
Message no. 24
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:42:47 GMT
Sascha Pabst writes

> You are right... but since the magician is not manifest, he will still
> follow the astral movement rules. And if you try to hit someone who
> moves at Quickness* 4 meters for slow or Magic * 1000 KILOmetres for
I'm sure thats, magic attribute kilometers, but its still very fast,
your average startup magician can loop the planet in under his six
hours project time and moderate initiates can outrun semibalistics!

> fast movement will sure make you look silly :-)
>
But the magician still onlt has astral initative, fast but its not
that much better than wired 3 so he/she might not see it comming it
time, but yes given the magician saw it dodging is a little easy :)

Mark
Message no. 25
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection -Reply
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:42:14 -0500
>your average startup magician can loop the planet in under his six hours project
>time

NITPICK MODE ON
I had thought this when I first read the rules, but I was thinking about it yesterday
and realized a problem with it. I don't have the rules handy so I could be wrong,
but you lose a point of magic every hour, slowing you down, so that the total
distance a starting (magic 6) mage could project would be
6000
5000
4000
3000
2000
+1000
-----
21000 kilometers

(magic*magic + magic)/2 * 1000km in general.

Don't try looping the globe, you'll get about halfway and then not have time to get
back. Ouch!

NITPICK MODE OFF

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 26
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection -Reply
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:18:11 GMT
Mike Elkins writes

> >your average startup magician can loop the planet in under his six hours project
> >time
>
> NITPICK MODE ON

load flame throwers :)

> I had thought this when I first read the rules, but I was thinking about it yesterday
> and realized a problem with it. I don't have the rules handy so I could be wrong,
> but you lose a point of magic every hour, slowing you down, so that the total
> distance a starting (magic 6) mage could project would be

um, have to check if that applies.

some maths, its Magic att km's complex action.
assuming int4,thats 4*2 + 15 + 1D6 = 3actions per 3 second round
6km * 3 actions = 18Km combat round.
20 per min = 360Km per minute
60 mins per hour = 21600Km per hour

planet Earth radius 4000miles, 6400Km, *2pi = 40212Km!

at 21,600 Km / hour = 1.86 hours = 112 mins

allowing for magic loss 2nd hour would be 21600 * 5/6 = 18000
21600+18000 = 39600, even thats only just over two hours!

[lop!]
> Don't try looping the globe, you'll get about halfway and then not have time to get
> back. Ouch!
>
> NITPICK MODE OFF
>
flame throwers are tame :(, i had a better idea, Captain Riker get
his attention please :)

> Double-Domed Mike
>
Mark
Message no. 27
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection -Reply
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:47:59 +0200
On 20.06.96, Mike Elkins wrote about "Re: Astral Projection -Reply":
> >your average startup magician can loop the planet in under his six
> >hours project time
>
> NITPICK MODE ON
> I had thought this when I first read the rules, but I was thinking about it yesterday
> and realized a problem with it. I don't have the rules handy so I could
> be wrong,
> but you lose a point of magic every hour, slowing you down, so that the total
> distance a starting (magic 6) mage could project would be
> 6000
[...]
> +1000
> -----
> 21000 kilometers
[snip]
> Don't try looping the globe, you'll get about halfway and then not have
> time to getback. Ouch!
>
> NITPICK MODE OFF
SRII, p. 146, "Effects of Astral Projection
[...] The physical Body loses 1 point of Essence for every hour the magician
is astrally gallivanting. If the Essence falls below 0, the magician
dies." So far you are right, but now read on:
"The magician's astral form has its full Essence and Magic Ratings even though
the the physical body is withering."

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 28
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:19:41 -0600
Luc (aka BobW) wrote:

>Sascha Pabst wrote:
>> Hm, the Grimoire, p. 86 says "[...] an astrally projecting character can
become
>> visible on the physical plane if he wishes." I would believe
"visible" means
>> the (idealized self-) image of the magician would become visible, not some
>> kind of illusion.
>
>never said anything illusionary. within reason because of a munckin/rules
>manipulator that I role play with.
>
>> > But
>> > remember that you can attack manifesting spirits and I would allow for
attacking
>> > manifesting mages (PhysAds are very lethal when fighting manifested things
>> > especially if they have sorcery). And as I recall things manifested mages
arent
>> > truely solid.
>> They are NOT manifesting! When manifest, a spirit can handle physical objects
>> (like hurling a Street Sam around), but a "visible" projecting magician
CAN'T.
>> He can just hear and be heard. No touching, sorry...
>
>I know the mage cant have any interaction with the real world when projecting from
>astral space. I used manifesting because it has been about a year since I have
>looked in a shadowrun book and my Shadowrun main book is 800 or so miles away at my
>parent's house. And I have been toying with the idea that a mage projecting from
>astral space can be attacked the same way a manifesting spirit could be attacked.
>

Any astral entity can be attacked by a magically active character using a focus or
killing hands. In most cases the attacker must use at the verry least astral
perception, opening themselves up to grounded spells. If the astral being becomes
visible, even an adept with no access to astral space can take a shot (if they are
within range).

This brings up an interesting point. When a spirit or elemental manifests I give
those attacking with a focus or killing hands a normal attack. For PA's this usually
ends up as a normal attack, while mages and sorcerous adepts use there higher (one
would expect) sorcery skill.

Piatro
Message no. 29
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:19:47 -0600
Sascha wrote:

>On 19.06.96, Mark Steedman wrote about "Re: Astral Projection":
>["visible" projecting magicians not manifest]
>> Well you can touch but you won't do any harm. Basically as the form
>> with a physical part has right of way hitting a manifested magician
>> will just send the poor soul flying, won't hurt (even with a weapon
>> focus if you don't have percept up - if you do well thats astral
>> combat and it will, like mad) him/her but you may well really annoy

Sorry. "Active weapon foci are present in astral space and can be used=
against critters or spirits that aer only present there." <SRII pg.138>

>> the mage, after all spinning out of control is no fun.
>You are right... but since the magician is not manifest, he will still
>follow the astral movement rules. And if you try to hit someone who
>moves at Quickness* 4 meters for slow or Magic * 1000 KILOmetres for
>fast movement will sure make you look silly :-)
>

Sure the mage can cover a lot of distance easily, but he is still using the=
same initiative timing as the purely physical characters. His initiative=
is determined differently, but if he is acting on 29 and the PA is acting=
on 30 then the physical action will happen before the mage has a chance to=
move away. For this reason, PA's usually get only on shot at a "visibly=
projecting" mage.

If given the chance, the best followup action for a PA who has failed to=
kill the mage with the first shot is to drop the weapon focus. Once it=
leaves his hands it beconed inactive, and is no longer present in astral sp=
ace.


Piatro


P.S.
This reminds me of a question our group had about astral initiative. Does=
initiation make a mage any faster on the astral plane. We had them add=
their Initiate grade in with their astral reaction.

Questions? Comments? Carrots?
Message no. 30
From: "Damion Milliken" <dam01@***.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 19:35:26 +1000 (EST)
Peter writes:

> Sure the mage can cover a lot of distance easily, but he is still using
> the same initiative timing as the purely physical characters. His
> initiative is determined differently, but if he is acting on 29 and the PA
> is acting on 30 then the physical action will happen before the mage has a
> chance to move away. For this reason, PA's usually get only on shot at a
> "visibly projecting" mage.

Actually, if you look at the Initiative rules in SRII (right near the start
of the combat chapter - my books are a long distance away from me at the
moment), you'll see that during a combat round _all_ astral actions, then
_all_ matrix actions then _all_ physical actions are resolved, in that order
(it may be matrix then astral, I'm not sure). This means that the PA
_never_ gets a go at the astrally projecting magician, at least BTB. OTOH,
I never use that rule, and run actions as they occur simultaneously, as it
sounds like you do.

> This reminds me of a question our group had about astral initiative. Does
> initiation make a mage any faster on the astral plane. We had them add
> their Initiate grade in with their astral reaction.

I have a feeling that initiaties are allowed to add their grade to their
astral intiaitive, it will say in the Grimything though.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au

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Message no. 31
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 18:03:44 +0200
On 22.06.96, Damion Milliken wrote about "Re: Astral Projection":
[initiative]
> Actually, if you look at the Initiative rules in SRII (right near the start
> of the combat chapter - my books are a long distance away from me at the
> moment), you'll see that during a combat round _all_ astral actions, then
> _all_ matrix actions then _all_ physical actions are resolved, in that order
> (it may be matrix then astral, I'm not sure). This means that the PA
> _never_ gets a go at the astrally projecting magician, at least BTB. OTOH,
> I never use that rule, and run actions as they occur simultaneously, as it
> sounds like you do.
Nonononono... it is combat PHASE they are talking about, not ROUND.
So, if a decker in the matrix, a magician in astral space, and a street
sammy all have Initiative 22, the magician would act first, then the
decker, then the sammy, no matter what their Reaction ratings are.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 32
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 18:03:19 +0200
On 22.06.96, Peter wrote about "Re: Astral Projection":
> Any astral entity can be attacked by a magically active character using a focus or
> killing hands. In most cases the attacker must use at the verry least astral
> perception, opening themselves up to grounded spells.
No "most" cases.

> If the astral being becomes
> visible, even an adept with no access to astral space can take a shot (if they are
> within range).
Saz who?
Sorry, but for all I know this is nonsense. Any page ref.s here?

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 33
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 18:03:24 +0200
On 22.06.96, Peter wrote about "Re: Astral Projection":
[wrong statement from me, about weapon foci unable to projecting m.]
> Sorry. "Active weapon foci are present in astral space and can be used against
critters or spirits that aer only present there." <SRII pg.138>
Ooops. you are right.
Although I do doubt it's a wise idea to activate your focus when the
magician can attack it, but that's another thing.

> P.S.
> This reminds me of a question our group had about astral initiative. Does initiation
make a mage any faster on the astral plane. We had them add their Initiate grade in with
their astral reaction.
Grimoire, p. 38: "Another advantage [of Initiation] is that initiates
to their Astral Reaction equal to their Initiate Grade Rating."

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 34
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 19:21:34 -0500
At 07:35 PM 6/22/96 +1000, you wrote:

>Actually, if you look at the Initiative rules in SRII (right near the start
>of the combat chapter - my books are a long distance away from me at the
>moment), you'll see that during a combat round _all_ astral actions, then
>_all_ matrix actions then _all_ physical actions are resolved, in that order
>(it may be matrix then astral, I'm not sure). This means that the PA
>_never_ gets a go at the astrally projecting magician, at least BTB. OTOH,
>I never use that rule, and run actions as they occur simultaneously, as it
>sounds like you do.

The line is on the bottom of the first column on p 79. "In any Combat Phase
during which decking actions are mixed with astral and or [sic] physical
actions, the order for resolving actions is all astral first, then all
decking actions, then all physical actions."

That only applies when someone is decking. Plus, the new decking rules in
VR 2.0 may make that statement obsolete. And where would spellcasting fit
in to the above order of actions? A mage casting a physical spell
manipulates the fabric or astral space but both the mage and the spell
effect are physical. See? The rule was most likely written to incorporate
deckers into the flow of the action instead of stopping the action to do the
Martix Run. With VR 2.0 rules, FASA doesn't have to make this consession to
decking PCs.

-Thomas Deeny
Cartoonist At Large

"Hola! I am professional cartoonist! Want me to draw comics for you?"
-Sergio Aragones, _Sergio Aragones Destroys DC_
Message no. 35
From: "Damion Milliken" <dam01@***.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 13:11:07 +1000 (EST)
Faux Pas writes:

> The line is on the bottom of the first column on p 79. "In any Combat Phase
> during which decking actions are mixed with astral and or [sic] physical
> actions, the order for resolving actions is all astral first, then all
> decking actions, then all physical actions."

Hmm, I _really_ need to re-read the rules. I was _positive_ that it said
"Combat Turn", not "Combat Phase" (rather like I was so sure grenades
used
half Impact armour). I have it sitting in the back of my mind as one of
those things that was odd, and that stuck out, so I remembered it. Looks
like I've been using the real rules all along. :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au

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Message no. 36
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection -Reply
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 17:34:33 +0100
Mike Elkins said on 8:42/20 Jun 96...

[the total distance a starting mage could project]
> 21000 kilometers
>
> (magic*magic + magic)/2 * 1000km in general.
>
> Don't try looping the globe, you'll get about halfway and then not have time to get
> back. Ouch!

Just have someone inflict some minor damage on your body after 6 hours,
that should snap you back straight into your body :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Nothing's fair.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 37
From: "Robert J. Waters" <rjwate01@*****.louisville.edu>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection -Reply
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:46:40 -0500 (EDT)
> Just have someone inflict some minor damage on your body after 6 hours,
> that should snap you back straight into your body :)

Or an old enemy who is feeling especially kewl could, oh say eliminate/run-off
your buddies watching your meat then put you in a coffin and bury you "alive"
within the living earth in the exact spot that you left it so you cant reach
it. Rather nasty way to eliminate a mage enemy.

Luc AKA BobW
Message no. 38
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 17:38:55 -0600
Sascha wrote:

>On 22.06.96, Peter wrote about "Re: Astral Projection":
>
>> If the astral being becomes
>> visible, even an adept with no access to astral space can take a shot
>> (if they are within range).
>Saz who?
>Sorry, but for all I know this is nonsense. Any page ref.s here?
>

No problem, I'd loke to get some feedback on how I decided this.

Weapon Foci (pg. 138)

Active weapon foci are present in astral space and can be used against
critters or spirits that are only present there.

...paranormal creatures that have defences againse normal weapons and
damage do not have that defense against a weapon focus.

Killing Hands (pg. 126)

The attack itself is effective against creatures with Immunity or magical
defenses against normal weapons. Their defemsive bonuses do not count
against Killing Hands.

----------

1. Since an active Weapon Focus are astrally active, if it connects with
an astral being, there is the normal damage for the weapon focus.

2. Since the damage for killing hands works the same way against
paranormal critters, it should work the same way against an astral
opponent. IMHO FASA just forgot to include this last element in the
book.

3. Assuming that Killing Hands and Weapon Foci can be used to attack purely astral
beings, I rule that their attacks are deternined normally against manifesting spirits and
elementals.


What do you think.

Piatro
Message no. 39
From: Todd Leask <taleask@***.ucalgary.ca>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 17:46:33 -0600 (MDT)
On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Peter wrote:

>
> 1. Since an active Weapon Focus are astrally active, if it connects with
> an astral being, there is the normal damage for the weapon focus.

I agree, since the weapon itself is considered an active focus

However, At least the +8 modifier for blind fighting (if you can not
perceive your target, ie astral while you are not)

>
> 2. Since the damage for killing hands works the same way against
> paranormal critters, it should work the same way against an astral
> opponent. IMHO FASA just forgot to include this last element in the
> book.

No, I have to disagree. The reason that Killing hands negates immunity to
normal weapons is that it is magic (or more correctly, powered by magic)
akin to a combat spell (I know, it's not the same but bare with me). If a
mage (non projecting nor perceiving) cannot affect a astral target with a
spell, then the physad cannot hit an astral target without astral
perception


>
> 3. Assuming that Killing Hands and Weapon Foci can be used to attack
> purely astral beings, I rule that their attacks are deternined normally
> against manifesting spirits and elementals.

While I do not agree with your reasoning, I agree with the result. I allow
killing hands and Weapon Foci to affect manifestion spirits and elementals
normally because they are magic (actually I use Astral Combat for Killing
Hands, however, I've never had a character use a Weapon Foci, so I've not
yet figured out (nor read) what they would use as a skill.

Todd


"You take something of yourself and give it free of charge. You take a
part of yourself and do so because you believe you are connected to
everything else. You become aware of yourself as a part of everything. You
suffer momentarily so that someone else will not have to."

Unknown, Winnebago, Before 1945
Message no. 40
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:17:54 +0200
(I am sorry to answer not to your orginal post, Peter, but here I can
get two arguments in one mail :-)

On 24.06.96, Todd Leask wrote about "Re: Astral Projection":
> On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Peter wrote:
> > 1. Since an active Weapon Focus are astrally active, if it connects with
> > an astral being, there is the normal damage for the weapon focus.
> I agree, since the weapon itself is considered an active focus
> However, At least the +8 modifier for blind fighting (if you can not
> perceive your target, ie astral while you are not)
We are talking about magicians who made themselves visible on physical
plane as per rules in Grimoire, p.86, Astral Projection, last paragraph.
So no TN modifier...

For the Weapon Focus, I agree with you, Peter, as long as it's active
(and therefore a valid target for grounding...)

> > 2. Since the damage for killing hands works the same way against
> > paranormal critters, it should work the same way against an astral
> > opponent. IMHO FASA just forgot to include this last element in the
> > book.
> No, I have to disagree. The reason that Killing hands negates immunity to
> normal weapons is that it is magic (or more correctly, powered by magic)
> akin to a combat spell (I know, it's not the same but bare with me). If a
> mage (non projecting nor perceiving) cannot affect a astral target with a
> spell, then the physad cannot hit an astral target without astral
> perception
When you allow to use Killing Hands against targets present only on astral
plane, you imply they (the hands) have an astral presence. This would
allow grounding through them, as SRII, p. 139 explains. This is the difference
between Foci and KHs, and I wouldn't be too happy about this if I were a PhysAd
without a Magic Pool to resist... :-)

> > 3. Assuming that Killing Hands and Weapon Foci can be used to attack
> > purely astral beings, I rule that their attacks are deternined normally
> > against manifesting spirits and elementals.
> While I do not agree with your reasoning, I agree with the result. I allow
> killing hands and Weapon Foci to affect manifestion spirits and elementals
> normally because they are magic (actually I use Astral Combat for Killing
> Hands, however, I've never had a character use a Weapon Foci, so I've not
> yet figured out (nor read) what they would use as a skill.

See SRII, p. 126, Killing Hands, this is manifest in the rules.
But KH do not affect astral presences, or you'd have to allow
grounding through the PhysAd, too.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 41
From: Brian Johnson <john0375@****.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 14:53:48 -0500 (CDT)
On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Todd Leask wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Peter wrote:
> > 1. Since an active Weapon Focus are astrally active, if it connects with
> > an astral being, there is the normal damage for the weapon focus.
>
> I agree, since the weapon itself is considered an active focus
>
> However, At least the +8 modifier for blind fighting (if you can not
> perceive your target, ie astral while you are not)

Isn't this more like trying to banish that physical shimmer that a spirit
create. They state you can't do that and you have to use AP to banish?
Message no. 42
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 19:14:34 -0400 (EDT)
At 08:17 PM 6/24/96 +0200, you wrote:

>> > 3. Assuming that Killing Hands and Weapon Foci can be used to attack
>> > purely astral beings, I rule that their attacks are deternined normally
>> > against manifesting spirits and elementals.

>> While I do not agree with your reasoning, I agree with the result. I allow
>> killing hands and Weapon Foci to affect manifestion spirits and elementals
>> normally because they are magic (actually I use Astral Combat for Killing
>> Hands, however, I've never had a character use a Weapon Foci, so I've not
>> yet figured out (nor read) what they would use as a skill.

>See SRII, p. 126, Killing Hands, this is manifest in the rules.
>But KH do not affect astral presences, or you'd have to allow
>grounding through the PhysAd, too.

Killing Hands has an astral presence, since they are treated just like
weapon foci, save you can't ground spells through them.

I don't recall where, but I recall KH will work in astral combat if, for
example, the physad were using astral perception and attacking an
unmanifested spirit.

--
"I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
- Jeff Dahmer
Message no. 43
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:22:50 +0200
On 25.06.96, Ubiquitous wrote about "Re: Astral Projection":
> >See SRII, p. 126, Killing Hands, this is manifest in the rules.
> >But KH do not affect astral presences, or you'd have to allow
> >grounding through the PhysAd, too.

> Killing Hands has an astral presence, since they are treated just like
> weapon foci, save you can't ground spells through them.

> I don't recall where, but I recall KH will work in astral combat if, for
> example, the physad were using astral perception and attacking an
> unmanifested spirit.
If you mean KH have an astral presence when -and only IF- the PhysAd is
astrally perceiving, we agree. If you want to explain to me whe have the
one and only thing that's effecive in astral space AND the physical world
without enabling grounding, I disagree.
KH are treated like weapon foci in astral foci only when the PhysAd is
perceiving. Each kind of hands, be they killing or not, are effective vs
non-manifest spirits when the "owner" is astrally perceiving.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 44
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 10:16:36 GMT
Sascha Pabst writes

> On 25.06.96, Ubiquitous wrote about "Re: Astral Projection":
> > >See SRII, p. 126, Killing Hands, this is manifest in the rules.
> > >But KH do not affect astral presences, or you'd have to allow
> > >grounding through the PhysAd, too.
>
> > Killing Hands has an astral presence, since they are treated just like
> > weapon foci, save you can't ground spells through them.
Everything has an astral presence!, there are however several types,
th presence of a mundane will push astral beings out of the way but
will not hurt them.

>
> > I don't recall where, but I recall KH will work in astral combat if, for
> > example, the physad were using astral perception and attacking an
> > unmanifested spirit.
> If you mean KH have an astral presence when -and only IF- the PhysAd is
> astrally perceiving, we agree.
i'll agree to that as well.

> If you want to explain to me whe have the
> one and only thing that's effecive in astral space AND the physical world
> without enabling grounding, I disagree.
There is only one way to do that, a dual creature that also has
masking, and even then grounding is possible if you realise the
target must have an astral presence just its hiding the fact. (this
ability shows up in perfect meld fleshform bugs and some free spirits
- yes its incredibly powerful, fortunately very rare)

> KH are treated like weapon foci in astral foci only when the PhysAd is
> perceiving. Each kind of hands, be they killing or not, are effective vs
> non-manifest spirits when the "owner" is astrally perceiving.
>
Yep.

What some folks seem to be thinking is though that unlike killing
hands active weapon foci are dual even if their wielder is not
percieving. The question does therefore arise of can you hurt a
astral or 'manifest magician' (as opposed to manifest spirit) that
does not have a physical presence with one even if not percieving. If
physics applied you certainly could but hurting astral presences
means putting yourself behind it and the question becomes can you
transfer your attack to a plane you cannot percieve ? (killing hands
would not be astrally active in this situation so the answer then
would certainly be you do no harm, thouhg you may well send the poor
astral soul for a flying lesson)

> Sascha

Mark
Message no. 45
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 10:44:43 -0600
Mark wrote:

>
>What some folks seem to be thinking is though that unlike killing
>hands active weapon foci are dual even if their wielder is not
>percieving. The question does therefore arise of can you hurt a
>astral or 'manifest magician' (as opposed to manifest spirit) that
>does not have a physical presence with one even if not percieving. If
>physics applied you certainly could but hurting astral presences
>means putting yourself behind it and the question becomes can you
>transfer your attack to a plane you cannot percieve ? (killing hands
>would not be astrally active in this situation so the answer then
>would certainly be you do no harm, thouhg you may well send the poor
>astral soul for a flying lesson)
>

But you can partially percieve the astral plane. Sure there are
aspects of it that are incomprehencible to the mundane experience,
they are undeniably linked to one another. Everything that exists
on the physical plane is visible (although not clearly) in the
astral plane. Astral attacks with a weapon focus can be exxicuted
in exactly the same way they are in the physical plane, otherwise
you could not use normal combat skills in astral combat _at all_.
For this reason, if the PA knows where the astral mage is, or even
guesses right, his attack will cause the same damage as if he were
astral.


Piatro
Message no. 46
From: "Robert J. Waters" <rjwate01@*****.louisville.edu>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 13:34:35 -0500 (EDT)
> But you can partially percieve the astral plane. Sure there are
> aspects of it that are incomprehencible to the mundane experience,
> they are undeniably linked to one another. Everything that exists
> on the physical plane is visible (although not clearly) in the
> astral plane. Astral attacks with a weapon focus can be exxicuted
> in exactly the same way they are in the physical plane, otherwise
> you could not use normal combat skills in astral combat _at all_.
> For this reason, if the PA knows where the astral mage is, or even
> guesses right, his attack will cause the same damage as if he were
> astral.

Let see....the PhysAd would suffer from ALOT of visual penalties.
Blind fighting, fighting an incorpereal target means never knowing when ya hit
(otherwise the PhysAd's hands would catch on every astral barrier/form he walk
through day to day), no dice pools IMO because all he really is doing is
shadow boxing...

As I understand killing hands is that the PhysAd has to have a target to focus
the distructive energy on when he swings. This is hard when you are swinging
wildly at the air trying to hit someone in an alternative plane of existance.
Plus in fighting if you dont either restrain you swings (and lessen the
damage) or connect with something then the fight becomes off balance which can
results in injuries.

Here are the ideas/rules I have come up with out of this discussion:
Mages/Shamen who are physically projecting can be attacked only by killing
hands, weapon foci, or combat spell.
Purely astral beings can not be harmed by weapon foci or killing hands UNLESS
the weapon foci or killing hands are directed specifically at the astral
being. Both weapon foci and killing hands have astral presences, but
are not being focused at the astral being specifically and therefore
just push the astral being around the same as any living thing does.
Individuals wishing to attack a purely astral being that they know (not just
suspect but must actually know) is present may do so with a weapon
foci or killing hands. The down side is they must attack as per the
rules for attacking manifesting spirits but can not use any dice pools
what so ever and suffer the target number modifier for blind fighting.
Also an astrally perceiving individual giving directions to the person with
killing hands or weapon foci only lower the target number by 1 or 2
depending on how good they are at it (IE how much practice and
training).

But these are all just my opinion of how it should be based on what I remember
of the rules and have seen of this discussion.

--
Luc AKA BobW

EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME!
BUT THE CORPSE STILL HAS THE FLOOR!
--Kevin Spacey as Lloyd in The Ref (1994)

EMail: rjwate01@*****.louisville.edu
Web : http://www.louisville.edu/~rjwate01/

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