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Message no. 1
From: Adi Marcus <s1685736@********.TECHNION.AC.IL>
Subject: astral sight
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 11:08:05 +0200
On Fri, 14 Oct 1994, Luke Kendall wrote:

> >>>>> "Terry" == Terry Amburgey <XANTH@****.UKY.EDU>
writes:
>
> Terry> My street sammie is in deep drek. Major cosmetic surgery is in the
> Terry> works but it seems to me that altering his aura would be prudent if
> Terry> I can figure out a way to do it.
>
> I believe that the vanilla SR line is that the astral body looks
> the same as the physical body. I assume they mean the body before
> cosmetic surgery.
>
> This makes no sense to me:
> 1) A mage's astral form matches their self-image.
> 2) The astral must be bigger than the physical or it couldn't be
> assensed - physical objects block astral sight. So the vanilla
> rules imply a swollen image at the very least.
> 3) You can read emotions etc. in the astral form. If it was the
> same as the physical, you could look at that instead.
>
> I think it makes much more sense to say that the astral form doesn't look
> like the physical object.

actualy I like the way the astral preception is described in the short
story "turtle in the tower".
the physical body looks "normal" (if he looks that way in the physical
world....) but surrounded by a haze of colors each one with it's own
meaning like grey for essense loss , green for fear , yellow for
intelligence etc.

this form of representation makes it possible for a mage to still
function reasonably well in the real world while astral precepting...
(besides the inabilty to read , which i don't understand it's source.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
cerbarus-the phantasmal hound of the wardog company
adi marcus E-mail: s1685736@********.technion.ac.il
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 2
From: "Wow, Reality. That's a switch" <MHILLIARD@****.ALBION.EDU>
Subject: Re: astral sight
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 05:17:11 -0500
>(besides the inabilty to read , which i don't understand it's source.)

If I understand correctly, astral perception is seeing things by their
emotional content, just like thermographic sights let you see things
by the heat they give off. The most an assensing mage can 'see' is
maybe some of what the writer was feeling, and even then it would have
to be handwritten.

Phelan
Message no. 3
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: astral sight
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 23:52:13 +1000
cerbarus writeS:

> this form of representation makes it possible for a mage to still
> function reasonably well in the real world while astral precepting...
> (besides the inabilty to read , which i don't understand it's source.)

Well, I say it's more a rules kludge for tha almighty Game Balance than
enything else. Could you imagine the intelligence community if you were able
to zip round the world in 3 seconds, and take a peek at whatever you liked?
Thie would also be phenomonly handy for runners, sinse only very few places
are secured against the astral completely.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 4
From: Joanna Goodhartz <JGOODHAR@****.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: astral sight
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 20:20:16 -0400
>(besides the inabilty to read , which i don't understand it's source.)
>

Our GM has been using an interesting idea to explain this. When you write
something, the emotions the author felt are "imprinted" (for lack of a better
word) on the reading. So, the only thing the mage can sense is the emotion of
the writing, not the writing itself.

Joanna
(I'm still working on it...:)
Message no. 5
From: Black Death <ddmaster@**.NET>
Subject: Astral Sight
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:50:03 -0500
How does astral sight work?

Another words do you have to be able to see in the mundane way or not?

The reason behind this is that I am thinking about running a mage that
has only his astral vision to guide him through life due to an allergy
to plastics(fiber optics).
Message no. 6
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Astral Sight
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:10:02 -0600
Black Death wrote:
|
| How does astral sight work?
|
| Another words do you have to be able to see in the mundane way or not?
|
| The reason behind this is that I am thinking about running a mage that
| has only his astral vision to guide him through life due to an allergy
| to plastics(fiber optics).

The rules aren't real solid on this one. Based on previous debates,
in my game a mage can percieve if his mind isn't being affected
(loss, or impairment, of vision isn't due to brain affects or damage)
and his visual sight isn't being blocked (even something as simple as
a cloth tied over his head will block his astral perception). If his
blindness stems from his eyes, then he can percieve no problem.

Just my 2 cents.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 7
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Sight
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:01:18 -0500
>in my game a mage can percieve if his mind isn't being affected (loss, or
>impairment, of vision isn't due to brain affects or damage) and his visual sight
>isn't being blocked (even something as simple as a cloth tied over his head will
>block his astral perception). If his blindness stems from his eyes, then he can
>percieve no problem.

I play it differently. Astral perception is completely unrelated to vision, although
vision is often used as an analogy because it is the sense that comes closest.
In my game, anyone with astral perception can see out of any part of their aura,
although seeing out of something other than your head takes practice and
concentration. A blind character could assense just fine, although they may not
do very well describing what they sense in visual terms.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 8
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Sight
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:15:37 -0400
>I play it differently. Astral perception is completely unrelated to vision,
>although
>vision is often used as an analogy because it is the sense that comes
>closest.
>In my game, anyone with astral perception can see out of any part of their
>aura,
>although seeing out of something other than your head takes practice and
>concentration. A blind character could assense just fine, although they may
>not
>do very well describing what they sense in visual terms.
>
>Double-Domed Mike


Hey, check out the brain on Double-Domed Mike! Think of it like the
weird experiments they used to do back in the sixties, when they tried
to get people to 'read' or perceive something merely by it touching
their skin [photoreceptivity of the epidermis or something like that].
That was kinda of the track, but I think that's how astral perception
[according to DDM] works out. [OT again; weird thing about those
experiments, the subjects could only perceive text in contact with their
skin when the lights were on.].
Remember, the perceiver's aura interacts [evenif only minutely]
with that of the perceived, so it would make sense. And if it doesn't,
well, it IS magic, and they haven't figured EVERYTHING out about it yet.
[ they're still puzzling out Unified Field Theory :-]


"And that's when I shot him, your honor."
Dr. Stephen Franklin, Babylon 5
Message no. 9
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Astral Sight
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 14:30:30 -0600
Mike Elkins wrote:
|
| I play it differently. Astral perception is completely unrelated to
vision, although | vision is often used as an analogy because it is the
sense that comes closest. | In my game, anyone with astral perception
can see out of any part of their aura, | although seeing out of
something other than your head takes practice and | concentration. A
blind character could assense just fine, although they may not | do
very well describing what they sense in visual terms. | | Double-Domed
Mike | |

Cool. That's something that neither I, nor my players, thought of.
If one of my players ever brings it up I let them (the PC) learn how
to do it.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 10
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Sight
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:31:30 EDT
On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:50:03 -0500 Black Death <ddmaster@**.NET> writes:
>How does astral sight work?

Errr...it's astral perception.

>Another words do you have to be able to see in the mundane way or not?

Hmmm...yes and no...you don't need physical eyes, but one could debate
the validity of a blindfold on such a character.

>The reason behind this is that I am thinking about running a mage that
>has only his astral vision to guide him through life due to an allergy
>to plastics(fiber optics).

Note: He won't be able to use _lots_ of things, any and all cyberware,
for instance.

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, lobo1@****.com
let him prepare for war. canthros1@***.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 11
From: Brett Borger <SwiftOne@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Astral Sight
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 00:12:59 GMT
>I play it differently. Astral perception is completely unrelated to
vision, although
>vision is often used as an analogy because it is the sense that comes closest.

This view (at least the part about not needing eyes) is supported by the
Blind Flaw in the companion.

As for the "see out anywhere" part....interesting.....the mage can watch
what's going on behind him.....even as he walks away......<EGMG>


-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 12
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Sight
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:31:06 EDT
On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:31:30 EDT L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM> writes:
>On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:50:03 -0500 Black Death <ddmaster@**.NET>
>>The reason behind this is that I am thinking about running a mage that
>>has only his astral vision to guide him through life due to an allergy
>>to plastics(fiber optics).
>
>Note: He won't be able to use _lots_ of things, any and all cyberware,
>for instance.

Not comepletely true... there's no reason that he couldn't have some
super-custom cyberware whipped up that doesn't contain plastics.... just
don't expect to pay anything less than 2 arms and a leg for it.

~Tim (Heck, I remember seeing a note in the opeing "menu" pages in the
SSC that said something about hypo-allergenic cyberware being available)
Message no. 13
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Sight
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:31:05 EDT
On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:01:18 -0500 Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
writes:
>>in my game a mage can percieve if his mind isn't being affected (loss,
or
>>impairment, of vision isn't due to brain affects or damage) and his
visual sight
>>isn't being blocked (even something as simple as a cloth tied over his
head will
>>block his astral perception). If his blindness stems from his eyes,
then he can
>>percieve no problem.
>
>I play it differently. Astral perception is completely unrelated to
vision, although
>vision is often used as an analogy because it is the sense that comes
closest.
>In my game, anyone with astral perception can see out of any part of
their aura,
>although seeing out of something other than your head takes practice and
>concentration. A blind character could assense just fine, although they
may not
>do very well describing what they sense in visual terms.

I was just about to disagree with David, but then I re-read his
post....then I re-read YOUR post and well on the surface David has a bit
of a point, in not being able to assence through an inanimate object.
However, since your aura extends beyond anything that you wear that might
pose a bit of a dilema. I certainly agree with DD Mike that using
anything other than your "eyes" to assence would be difficult, mainly for
habit's sake (but I'd have to agree that it's probably possible - but not
to the degree of sticking your astral hand around a corner to assence if
there are any spirits guarding the door). Interesting... though.

Oh... yeah, I'd say a blind person could use Astral sight just fine.

~Tim
Message no. 14
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Sight
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:10:36 EDT
On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:31:06 EDT Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM> writes:
>On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:31:30 EDT L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM> writes:
>>On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:50:03 -0500 Black Death <ddmaster@**.NET>
>>>The reason behind this is that I am thinking about running a mage that
>>>has only his astral vision to guide him through life due to an allergy
>>>to plastics(fiber optics).
>>
>>Note: He won't be able to use _lots_ of things, any and all cyberware,
>>for instance.
>
>Not comepletely true... there's no reason that he couldn't have some
>super-custom cyberware whipped up that doesn't contain plastics....
>just don't expect to pay anything less than 2 arms and a leg for it.

Hadn't considered that possibility...I'd bet it's also heavier and
bulkier, too (translation=higher Essence cost <EG> ). Should also mean
higher maintenance due to corrosion problems...

>~Tim (Heck, I remember seeing a note in the opeing "menu" pages in the
>SSC that said something about hypo-allergenic cyberware being available)


Ah, the SSC...another book I don't own, but multiple players in my group
do:) So what happens if the guy's allergic to ferrous metals, ie iron,
steel, etc? Bone lacing's safe, but what about things like razors? or
spurs? :)

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, lobo1@****.com
let him prepare for war. canthros1@***.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 15
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Sight
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 04:12:38 -0700
> >~Tim (Heck, I remember seeing a note in the opeing "menu" pages in the
> >SSC that said something about hypo-allergenic cyberware being available)

> Ah, the SSC...another book I don't own, but multiple players in my group do:) So what
happens if the guy's allergic to ferrous metals, ie iron, steel, etc? Bone lacing's safe,
but what about things like razors? or spurs? :)

Hypoallergenic cyber costs 150% of base cost.. and then there's
hypo-alpha, hypo-beta, etc. Used to be a way for, say, elves to get
around plastic allergies and what not; as a Gm, though, I wouldn't allow
it to circumvent the Sensiitve System flaw (but then, I'm not sure if
I'd use the Companion again...)

-Matt
Message no. 16
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Sight
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:21:20 -0700
---Tim P Cooper wrote:
>
> I certainly agree with DD Mike that using
> anything other than your "eyes" to assence would be difficult,
mainly for
> habit's sake (but I'd have to agree that it's probably possible -
but not
> to the degree of sticking your astral hand around a corner to
assence if
> there are any spirits guarding the door). Interesting... though.

My other problem with "astral seeing" through any part of your aura is
the potential for abuse with LOS spells.

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: http://www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 17
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Astral Sight
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 06:56:56 -0600
Loki wrote:
|
| ---Tim P Cooper wrote:
| >
| > I certainly agree with DD Mike that using
| > anything other than your "eyes" to assence would be difficult,
| mainly for
| > habit's sake (but I'd have to agree that it's probably possible -
| but not
| > to the degree of sticking your astral hand around a corner to
| assence if
| > there are any spirits guarding the door). Interesting... though.
|
| My other problem with "astral seeing" through any part of your aura is
| the potential for abuse with LOS spells.

You mean like sticking your hand around a corner instead of your
head? No problem, blow the mage's hand off :)

Quick question. Is astral perception "stereo"? I.e., if both your
eyes work you have depth perception because of the distance between
both your eyes. If you allow a person to perceive from any
point on their aura would they lose that depth perception? And,
would it matter?

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 18
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Astral Sight
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:41:07 +1000
> Hey, check out the brain on Double-Domed Mike! Think of it like the
> weird experiments they used to do back in the sixties, when they tried
> to get people to 'read' or perceive something merely by it touching
> their skin [photoreceptivity of the epidermis or something like that].
> That was kinda of the track, but I think that's how astral perception
> [according to DDM] works out. [OT again; weird thing about those
> experiments, the subjects could only perceive text in contact with their
> skin when the lights were on.].
> Remember, the perceiver's aura interacts [evenif only minutely]
> with that of the perceived, so it would make sense. And if it doesn't,
> well, it IS magic, and they haven't figured EVERYTHING out about it yet.
> [ they're still puzzling out Unified Field Theory :-]

Yeah, but remember that you can't read writing from Astral Space. I'd say
that means you can't read it through your aura.

Ray.

-----------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens,|
| You will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@*******.com.au
Message no. 19
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Sight
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:34:50 EDT
On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:10:36 EDT L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM> writes:
>Ah, the SSC...another book I don't own, but multiple players in my group
>do:)

(about the only book that I *do* own... and the first ed. version at
that...why buy books when there are 3 other people who have a driving
need to own them all? :) )

> So what happens if the guy's allergic to ferrous metals, ie iron,
>steel, etc? Bone lacing's safe, but what about things like razors? or
>spurs? :)

Who said they had to be metal? I hear they can do wonderous things with
ceramics and carbon fiber now, let alone 2057.... also what about simply
sheathing them in something safe?

~Tim
Message no. 20
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Sight
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:57:05 EDT
On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 04:12:38 -0700 Matb <mbreton@**.netcom.com> writes:
>> >~Tim (Heck, I remember seeing a note in the opeing "menu" pages in
the
>> >SSC that said something about hypo-allergenic cyberware being
available)
>
>> Ah, the SSC...another book I don't own, but multiple players in my
>group do:) So what happens if the guy's allergic to ferrous metals, ie
>iron, steel, etc? Bone lacing's safe, but what about things like
>razors? or spurs? :)
>
>Hypoallergenic cyber costs 150% of base cost.. and then there's
>hypo-alpha, hypo-beta, etc. Used to be a way for, say, elves to get
>around plastic allergies and what not; as a Gm, though, I wouldn't allow
>it to circumvent the Sensiitve System flaw (but then, I'm not sure if
>I'd use the Companion again...)

Of course not. Sensitive System results from a problem with the immune
system not accepting something unless it has the correct
markers...cyberware and non-cultured bioware don't have any markers (or
have generic ones at the least, Type O and all) and therefore, they don't
have the body's markers, either.

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, lobo1@****.com
let him prepare for war. canthros1@***.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 21
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Sight)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:01:47 EDT
On Thu, 1 May 1997 11:39:26 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>Tim P Cooper said on 22:34/30 Apr 97...
>
>> > So what happens if the guy's allergic to ferrous metals, ie iron,
>> >steel, etc? Bone lacing's safe, but what about things like razors? or
>> >spurs? :)
>>
>> Who said they had to be metal? I hear they can do wonderous things
with
>> ceramics and carbon fiber now, let alone 2057.... also what about
simply
>> sheathing them in something safe?
>
>Don't forget that "metal" is not the same as "iron." You could
very well
>make hand razors out of titanium, which doesn't contain iron (unlike
>steel, which can contain anything from about 60% to 99% iron). Such
metals
>wouldn't trigger the allergic reaction.

And titanium is more expensive than steel, less common than iron, etc.

>It could be asking for disaster, though. Sort of like wearing a plastic
>raincoat over your other clothes when you have a plastic allergy (if
>it's not touching your skin anywhere, it should be fine), and then
getting
>a load of buckshot fired into you...

Ow. I'll have to remember that:) And, of course, nearly everything is
made of synthetic materials in SR, including clothes, the outer shells of
many firearms, weapon handles, some weapons, pill bottles, cyberdeck
casings, carpets, bed sheets, matresses, pillows, large portions of
civilian vehicles, etc, etc>:)

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, lobo1@****.com
let him prepare for war. canthros1@***.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Nivek Sregor)
Subject: Astral Sight
Date: Tue Aug 14 13:55:03 2001
Warning: YOTC spoiler.

The positive Surge effect Astral Sight gives the character astral perception and a magic
rating of 1, also enabling them to enchant. I have a character in my game that was given
astral sight but he has about 7 points worth of bioware. In Man & Machine it says
that bioware only impedes a persons ability to use magic but doesn't get rid of it. Does
this mean that he'll lose his ability to enchant but he can still astrally perceive?
--

_______________________________________________
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Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (David Post)
Subject: Astral Sight
Date: Tue Aug 14 14:10:01 2001
>Warning: YOTC spoiler.
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E







Note: If you are going to warn for a spolier, include spolier
space....

>
>The positive Surge effect Astral Sight gives the character astral
perception and a magic rating of 1, also enabling them to enchant.
I have a character in my game that was given astral sight but
he has about 7 points worth of bioware. In Man & Machine it
says that bioware only impedes a persons ability to use magic
but doesn't get rid of it. Does this mean that he'll lose his
ability to enchant but he can still astrally perceive?
>--
>

I would rule that, yes. I wouldn't allow them to do anything
else that involves magic, either, of which setting of wards comes
to mind.

Dave
Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Astral Sight
Date: Wed Aug 15 05:00:01 2001
According to Nivek Sregor, on Tue, 14 Aug 2001 the word on the street was...

> The positive Surge effect Astral Sight gives the character astral
> perception and a magic rating of 1, also enabling them to enchant. I have
> a character in my game that was given astral sight but he has about 7
> points worth of bioware. In Man & Machine it says that bioware only
> impedes a persons ability to use magic but doesn't get rid of it. Does
> this mean that he'll lose his ability to enchant but he can still astrally
> perceive?

I don't think he'd lose the ability to enchant. After all, M&M clearly says
on page 78 that "If a Magic Rating is modified to 0 (or less) by bioware,
the character has not lost his ability to use magic -- he just cannot use
it as effectively". To me, that seems to mean that all Drain causes
physical damage (because all Force ratings will exceed the character's
Magic rating), that you can't astrally project (because you can stay there
for 0 hours), and so on. Since an enchanter doesn't take any Drain, and
your character can only astrally perceive, I don't think all of this is
going to be much of a problem, even if your effective Magic Rating is -6.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Further Reading

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