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Message no. 1
From: uk%"ETMDMAPLE@***.liverpool-poly.ac.uk"
Subject: Astral Space
Date: 27-FEB-1992 08:04
From: uk%"ETMDMAPLE@***.liverpool-poly.ac.uk" 27-FEB-1992 08:04
To: BARNHART <@************.ac.uk,@*****.UIC.edu:BARNHART@****.bitnet>
Subj: Astral Space


My problem is who can you attack from astral space with spells ?
One Ref I played with said you can attack anyone so long as you
use a Mana spell. I think this makes mages way too powerful as
they could attack a mundane target for astral space without them
being able to attack back. Could someone clear up the rules in this
area.

Regards Terry Troll

ETMDMAPLE@**.AC.LIVPOL.VAX@************.AC.UK (I think !)
Message no. 2
From: John DeLaHunt <JDELAHUNT@******.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Astral Space
Date: Unknown time and date
From: John DeLaHunt <JDELAHUNT@******.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Astral Space
To: barnhardt%knox.bitnet@*****.uic.edu

Hoi.
The rules sez (but don't ask where, *my* copy don't play no index...)
that all creatures great & small have astral presence corresponding to thier
essence. I suppose that means the essence 0.01 rigger is a shadow on the
astral plane, but he's still there... The rules also sez, (caveat above
applies here, too...) that mana spells are simply astral creatures who do
specific things, like blow away other astral creatures. This means, to me,
that a mage who is astral can use astral pool dice to cast mana spells that
affect the physical forms of the people in the area of effect.
So, yes, that means that a mage with the ability to go astral can
more or less destroy a bunch of samuri who don't have an astral-capable mage
with them. Bad news, chummers.
My response to players abusing astral space would be increased astral
vigilance by the baddies, up to and including pre-emptive strikes. Bear in
mind that if there are any spell locks on the party which involve spells that
the lockee doesn't know, there is an astral thread to the locker. Have your
astral-capable bad-guy mage follow that thread to the sap who cast the lock
and trash, but not quite kill, him/her. Make it plain that this was as a res-
ult of the lock and astral activity. Make the astral plane a last resort for
the characters.
My response to GM's abusing astral space would be a massive effort to
find the body of the abuser, followed by a .45 to the head. Or, have the
group's mage assence the astral location of the abuser, then cast a mana bolt
in that direction.
Like the network, astral space is an exlusive environment, and while
the mage is astral, the rest of the players pick their toes (or they do in
our games...). This means, to our group, that astral stuff happens fast and
is over with fast, so that the other players don't give up and go home.
Astral assensing can be crucial to the game, but astral activity may
not be. Try to do away with it until it's just the mages and the GM, then
let the games commence.

--------------------------

Shamanic Adept

Tech: 4
Magic: 3
Attrib: 2
Skills: 1
Race: 0

1,000,000 nuyen *and* 50 magic points??? Let's talk power foci,
spell locks (increase RXN +4 is a fave of mine...), a little cyber, and a
rating 6 spirit focus. So bloody what if you can only cast one type of spell?
Choose raccoon as the totem and Turn 'Em To Goo. This was going to be a
bad guy in one of my games, but it just wasn't fair. Po' widdle pwayers go
squish. Ever try to fight off a chaotic world 8? Good luck...

-------------------------

The last segment of a terribly long post...

Where can I find specific references to the effects of fetishes on
shamanic spells? I've looked and looked, but, since my books don't have good
indices, I'm stuck. Just a book name and page numbers, please.

Rat Rasta out.
JDELAHUNT@******.COLORADO.EDU
Message no. 3
From: EDU%"RAPICKERING@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU"
Subject: Re: Astral Space
Date: 27-FEB-1992 15:35
From: EDU%"RAPICKERING@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU" 27-FEB-1992 15:35
To: BARNHART%KNOX.BITNET@*****.UIC.EDU
Subj: Re: Astral Space


You write:
=>
=> From: uk%"ETMDMAPLE@***.liverpool-poly.ac.uk" 27-FEB-1992 08:04
=> To: BARNHART <@************.ac.uk,@*****.UIC.edu:BARNHART@****.bitnet>
=> Subj: Astral Space
=>
=>
=> My problem is who can you attack from astral space with spells ?
=> One Ref I played with said you can attack anyone so long as you
=> use a Mana spell. I think this makes mages way too powerful as
=> they could attack a mundane target for astral space without them
=> being able to attack back. Could someone clear up the rules in this
=> area.

According to the basic game (and very clearly in the Grimoire) mages while
astrally PROJECTED...CANNOT attack mundane targets. If you are projected you
can only engage in Astral combat with another asral being.

However, if you are astrally PERCEIVED then you may attack mundane targets with
ANY spell you desire. All spells move through astral space to their targets,
the fact that you are perceived doesn't make a difference. However, if you are
projected then your entire "astral being" is in astral space so there's
problems contacting the mundane plane.

The disadvantage to being perceived is that you cannot go where your physical
body couldn't go. So if you slip out an open door and down the hall and then
there's no more open doors your stuck...you can't go through the doors. Also,
if someone comes by and shuts the door you did go through...wham...you're back
in your body.

=> Regards Terry Troll
=>
=> ETMDMAPLE@**.AC.LIVPOL.VAX@************.AC.UK (I think !)
=>
=>
=> Armour spells and similiar things I'd like to know why the
=> target number is the Willpower if the target is willing ?
=> Surely like illusions the target number should be reduced
=> if they are not resisting the spell that or have a set TN#
=> like with the barrier spells.

Armor spells DO NOT have a target equal to the opponent's willpower. Armor
is a physical spell and therefore must overcome the opponent's bod. Target
numbers are not lowered for willing targets because you still must surpass the
bodies natural instincts to fight anything foreign, even magic. However,
you'll notice that drain codes are lower for spells with willing targets
required.

-Onyx
Message no. 4
From: edu%"s85963@**.gettysburg.edu"
Subject: Re: Astral Space
Date: 29-FEB-1992 22:08
From: edu%"s85963@**.gettysburg.edu" 29-FEB-1992 22:08
To: BARNHART%KNOX.BITNET@*****.UIC.EDU
Subj: Re: Astral Space

As far as having a mage in astral trash a party of Samurai. I got
one question for you. Are you using the Grimoire. If you are, refer to
page 62, column 2, Other Beings. The first paragraph states "Other living
things, that is, physical creatures who are not astrally active, are
visible and tangible on the etheric plane, but immune to Astral Combat.
They are obstacles, not Opponents" This is a direct quote compromising the
entire first paragraph.

If you do not use the Grimoire then refer to SR page 90, column 2,
Astral Combat, paragraph one. Here it says much the same thing. To quote
again. "Things that do not have an active astral presence cannot fight or
be hurt in any way in Astral Space."

Therefore there is no way for a astral mage to hurt non astrally
active characters, if you are playing according to the rules. If you're
not then you need to make up a few rules and guidlines to take care of
questions like this.

Hope this helps you out.

Brian D. Neumann
s85963@*****.bitnet
s85963.cc.gettysburg.edu
Message no. 5
From: BARNHART@****
Subject: Astral Space
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 92 10:08:00 CDT
From: EDU%"RAPICKERING@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU" 4-MAR-1992 06:39
To: BARNHART%KNOX.BITNET@*****.UIC.EDU
Subj: Re: well I'm no expert, but I love to stick me nose in(humm)

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From: RAPICKERING@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
Subject: Re: well I'm no expert, but I love to stick me nose in(humm)
To: BARNHART%KNOX.BITNET@*****.UIC.EDU
Message-id: <01GH8LVW04BS96VZWR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
X-VMS-To: IN%"BARNHART%KNOX.BITNET@*****.UIC.EDU"

You write:
=> 0739; Mon, 02 Mar 92 12:49:25 CST
=> Date: Monday, March 2, 1992
=> From: BARNHART%KNOX.BITNET@*****.UIC.EDU
=> Subject: well I'm no expert, but I love to stick me nose in(humm)
=> To: ShadowRun List
=> Message-id: <01GH68C3QN6095MLXA@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
=>
=> From: uk%"ISTPNORTON@***.liverpool-poly.ac.uk" 2-MAR-1992 10:17
=> To: BARNHART <@************.ac.uk,@*****.UIC.edu:BARNHART@****.bitnet>
=> Subj: well I'm no expert, but I love to stick me nose in(humm)
=>
=>
=> > My problem is who can you attack from astral space with spells ?
=>
=>
=> Well a mundane target wouldn't have a presence in astral space to
=> lock on to would they... So if a mage was allowed to attack a target
=> with no presence, and no ability to reply attack it should be bloody
=> hard to do... Well thats what I'd say, but you can tell me to nick off
=> and then beat me with a big stick pref by a woman dressed in leather
=> with high black... sorry!!!
=>
=> Sir Psycho Sexy
=>

Sorry...all players have an astral presence. That's why you can read people's
auras. The astral presence is usually proportional to the player's essence.
That's why you don't see many street sams in the astral plane. As I've
mentioned before mages can only attack mundane targets if they are astrally
perceiving, they can't be projected.

-Onyx
Message no. 6
From: Unix_Kurs7044 <c7044@*****.RZ.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE>
Subject: Astral Space
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 14:01:52 +0200
Okay, another quetion on astral space and how it works. This came to me
will driving through the countryside by car. Imagine this situation:
A magician, who loves the countryside very much, is using astral projection
too flee from the metroplex. So he wanders through the countryside in astral
space (you know, it gives a lot more to percieve the wonders of nature from
the astral). Now as he wanders around, he comes to a round and on the
physical plane a man in a car is driving by. And if the magician was on
the physical, he would be crashed by the car (because he is at the same spot
where the car is driving by, but fortunately in the astral side, therefore
the car doesn't harm him.) But what about the driver of the car. He is (on
the astral plane) solid like a rock, and he has a speed of 100 km per h.
WHAT happens to the magician who collides with the DRIVER? The driver
himself is not affected by the magician, because he has no astral presence
(just assume he's a mundane). But the magician can't 'phase' through the
driver. So waht happens to him? Can we assume that the laws of physics
DO work on the astral plane?
Does the magician get catapulted through astral space like he was hit
with something of 75 kg and a speed of 100 km p h . Does the mage
get any damage from this? Or is he at least distorted?
Please enlighten me, ...

Mephisto, ==St.Willkofer
Message no. 7
From: Janne Jalkanen <jalkanen@*********.CERN.CH>
Subject: Re: Astral Space
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 14:16:04 +0200
On Fri, 8 Jul 1994, Unix_Kurs7044 wrote:

> driver. So waht happens to him? Can we assume that the laws of physics
> DO work on the astral plane?

Yea, why not...

> Does the magician get catapulted through astral space like he was hit
> with something of 75 kg and a speed of 100 km p h . Does the mage
> get any damage from this? Or is he at least distorted?
> Please enlighten me, ...

I do not have my rulebook ready, but I'd rule it to be a pretty normal
crash. It would have the same effect than in the normal world, from the
mage's point of view. The driver, however would be unaffected. Or maybe
he could just 'feel something strange'... The poor mage would then be
splattered across astral space.

Yes, you'd better watch where you are going while in astral space.
Imagine when an airplane would collide with you at 500 km/h... You
probably wouldn't even notice it, especially if you were inside a cloud
or something.

> Mephisto, ==St.Willkofer==

Janne Jalkanen ///! For those who have to fight for it
jalkanen@******.cern.ch /// ! life has a flavor
Janne.Jalkanen@***.fi \\\/// ! the protected will never understand
-'Keep on going...' \XX/ ! (anonymous, Viet Nam, 1968)
Message no. 8
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Astral Space
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 07:28:07 -0500
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. =)

Well, okay, I take a harsh view of astral, but yeah, the mage ought to get
smashed up like he got hit with a 75kg weight at a speed of 100kph. =)
Message no. 9
From: Unix_Kurs7044 <c7044@*****.RZ.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Astral Space
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 14:37:19 +0200
ell but then there's another oddity I just thought of. Think of a
little FLY. It would probably push the mage through the whole room
(in astral space). Or think of a SWARM of insects!!! If he gets
caught in one, what happens to him. Do the bees peer through his
astral Body? They are solid, and they have the same place like the mage
but are not hampered by him.
Perhaps the mage could escape the swarm, because he "hears" him
humming. But he wouldn't hear the appraoching car's engine, because
in astral space you only sense emotion and things with emotional
contents (a car's engine lacks this!). Nasty thought, hehehe.

Mephisto
Message no. 10
From: Janne Jalkanen <jalkanen@*********.CERN.CH>
Subject: Re: Astral Space
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 14:51:55 +0200
On Fri, 8 Jul 1994, Unix_Kurs7044 wrote:

> ell but then there's another oddity I just thought of. Think of a
> little FLY. It would probably push the mage through the whole room
> (in astral space). Or think of a SWARM of insects!!! If he gets
> caught in one, what happens to him. Do the bees peer through his
> astral Body? They are solid, and they have the same place like the mage
> but are not hampered by him.

Yea, this brings an evil idea to my mind... How about astral bullets?
Take a hollow bullet, fill it with some living tissue (mold would be
fine), then spray the bullets in the area you think the mage is. Blind
fire, +8 to target number... But shooting enough bullets some might hit.

That'd be cool...

Seriously, if we rule that the mage would suffer damage from slamming
into the driver, so we should also make him suffer damage from other
high-speed living tissue. Didn't think of that...

The swarm is also an interesting thought. Because the mage couldn't run
anywhere (surrounded completely by insects) where would he go? Would the
insects fly INSIDE him? Cause damage?

> Mephisto

Janne Jalkanen ///! For those who have to fight for it
jalkanen@******.cern.ch /// ! life has a flavor
Janne.Jalkanen@***.fi \\\/// ! the protected will never understand
-'Keep on going...' \XX/ ! (anonymous, Viet Nam, 1968)
Message no. 11
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Astral Space
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 07:57:30 -0500
Mount something, oh, like, say, a thorn (attatched to a trimmed but still alive
plant) onto a rokkit. Then have shoot the rocket at Mr. Astral Mage. Watch
Mr. Astral Mage take PUNCTURE damage from *living* matter moving at well over
300mph (slow rokkit). =)
Message no. 12
From: Unix_Kurs7044 <c7044@*****.RZ.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Astral Space
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 15:04:37 +0200
This is a whole new point of view. And this would take out a
lot of adavantge of astral space and would force those wise
guy- magicians to be more caeful when travellind astrally.

But maybe the laws of physics just don't work in astral space,
at least not in this case. Astral projection and a. space has to
do with a persons mind, his brains. The magician uses his mental
abilities to project himself to a.s. .
Therefore maybe there's some explanation or way how to avoid such
'accidents'. I'm thinking if the incredible speeds astral travellers
are capable of. Maybe such accidents are not possible because the
subconsciousness of one's mind/brain reacts fast enough?
But on the other hand magicians can be hurt bay astral combat,
why should they only be hurt in astral space by other magicians and
their weapon focus? Forget it, I really didn't want to find a way out.

Mephisto
Message no. 13
From: The Powerhouse <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Astral Space
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 17:16:47 +0100
In reply to Gian-Paolo Musumeci .....

> Well, okay, I take a harsh view of astral, but yeah, the mage ought to get
> smashed up like he got hit with a 75kg weight at a speed of 100kph. =)

Arrggh, this is all gettting too wierd. But here is how I would deal with the
situation... I'd ad hoc. There really is no easy way or hard and fast rule to
deal with these situtaions, so I'd come up with something that seemed reasonable
at the time and let the players worry about the rest.

As to doing damage though, I doubt it, as to effect something in astral you must
have a full astral presence, ie be astrally active, either perceiving or
projecting. Maybe cause the mage sever discomfort but no injury.

Phill.
--
Phillip Steele - Email address P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk | Fighting against
Department Of Electrical & Electronic Engineering | Political Correctness !
University Of Newcastle Upon Tyne, England |
Land of the mad Geordies | The Powerhouse
Message no. 14
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Astral Space
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 11:22:03 -0500
In my opinion, yes they'd get hit. Still, that's about it. I doubt
that they'd take any damage, mostly because moving fast (and near-instant accel-
eration) are commonplace in Astral...in other words, the mage would probably
start moving with the car.

Actually, I'm not sure how it WOULD work...physics would say that part
of the force of the car would go to the mage, and it would slow down, but
that obviously won't happen...

(What happens if the mage is crushed, though?)

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 15
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Astral Space
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 13:46:45 -0400
>>>>> "Powerhouse" == The Powerhouse
<P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK> writes:

Powerhouse> As to doing damage though, I doubt it, as to effect something
Powerhouse> in astral you must have a full astral presence, ie be astrally
Powerhouse> active, either perceiving or projecting. Maybe cause the mage
Powerhouse> sever discomfort but no injury.

In other words, the astral mage would bounce off the physical person. No
damage is done because physical world physics just don't apply in astral.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Democracy is four wolves and a lamb
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | voting on what to have for lunch.
Message no. 16
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Astral Space
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 1994 11:38:55 -0700
Astral Space obviously does not follow the same "Physics" as the real world.

When was the last time you flew under your own power? When was the last time
you moved at the speed of thought? When was the last time you moved through
water like it was air?

I didn't think so.

Now to answer the question of what would happen of a fast moving lifeform
bumped into an astral lifeform, the astral one would be displaced.

*******************************************************************************
* See Ya in Shadows * * "Trust No One." *
* Jason J Carter * Carter@***.EDU * The late Deep Throat *
* The Nightstalker * * The X-Files *
*******************************************************************************
Message no. 17
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Astral Space
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 1994 14:35:05 -0500
> When was the last time you flew under your own power? When was the last time
> you moved at the speed of thought? When was the last time you moved through
> water like it was air?

In my dreams.

> I didn't think so.

Exactly. I know so.

Gian-Paolo "Gods, I hate it when people try to do that!" Musumeci
Message no. 18
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Astral Space
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 09:51:30 +1000
If you think it through carefully, I'm sure you'll realise that
spirits are massless and inertialess. And that the no one could
afford to go astral if you took damage from any form of astral
collision.

Astral combats work through the intent to harm, more than through
the actual contact. IMHO.

luke
Message no. 19
From: Sandy Pratt <sandypra@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Space
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 1994 17:41:52 -0700
Which would make sense, considering one uses one's willpower to attack
while astral or while attacking astral objects (manifested spirits and such).
Message no. 20
From: Janne Jalkanen <jalkanen@*********.CERN.CH>
Subject: Re: Astral Space
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 10:26:57 +0200
On Sat, 9 Jul 1994, Jason Carter, Nightstalker wrote:

> Astral Space obviously does not follow the same "Physics" as the real
world.
>
> When was the last time you flew under your own power? When was the last time
> you moved at the speed of thought? When was the last time you moved through
> water like it was air?

Hum... yesterday?

:-)

> I didn't think so.

Neither did I until we discovered that the bottle of rhum was empty...

:-)

Still don't feel like eating...

> Now to answer the question of what would happen of a fast moving lifeform
> bumped into an astral lifeform, the astral one would be displaced.

Ah yes, I've also come to this conclusion after thinking the matter over
the weekend. My original judgement was a bit too quick... Anyway, this
does not answer what'd happen to a mage that would get caught inside a
swarm of insects... There'd be no clear way of 'displacing' him/her without
breaking continuity. Oh well, it seems that rule must be broken also: The
mage would be 'transported' outside the swarm somehow... Or be
immediately transported back to his body.

OK, how about another problem: A mage flies in astrally, scanning a
place. He sees a wierd room that has been covered with mold and the
background count is high. Lotsa suffering, etc. He goes in through the
only slot he can find and discovers nothing. Suddenly, someone places an
organic lid on the only exit... Voila, a mage trap.

Now, what about if one can lower down the roof (like in a trash
compactor) and still have the mage inside? Could we get 'Crepes Magiciennes?'
(Wizard Pancakes :) Kill the mage somehow? Whaddayathink, chummers? Hell,
you can banish an Air Elemental by trapping it inside an airtight case...

Hm, this reminds me of something (imagine a TV ad):

"Who you gonna call?"

"GHOSTBUSTERS! Armed with the largest trash compactor in the world, we
can take care of your astral problems..."

Of course, no mage would go in there after the rumors started spreading,
but you could for instance build an astral labyrinth inside a complex,
forcing the mage to get there. Or you could use it to trap watchers, etc.

In another post, luke mentioned that the Astral Combat works through the
intent to harm... I think this is very well said, and also works very
consistently.

<The Evil>

Janne Jalkanen ///! For those who have to fight for it
jalkanen@******.cern.ch /// ! life has a flavor
Janne.Jalkanen@***.fi \\\/// ! the protected will never understand
-'Keep on going...' \XX/ ! (anonymous, Viet Nam, 1968)
Message no. 21
From: Eve Somebody <ez019741@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Astral Space
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 03:20:55 -0700
Re: Mage trap

I *LIKE* it! Maybe you could make a portable version of it; for example,
a net of living fibers (plants of some kind) that you could throw over
an astral mage? Or a spell that would cause a cage of plant life to
spring up over an area?

-E

(apologies to jalkanen if you get this twice...)
Message no. 22
From: Unix_Kurs7044 <c7044@*****.RZ.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE>
Subject: Astral Space
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 1994 18:15:44 +0200
That's why I became a decker and no mage like my brother, see it.
You can't get lost or imprisoned in the Matrix like in Astral Space,
and if any trouble arouses all I do is jacking out. You just can't jack
out of astral space. And not everything you meet tries to eat your
astral body, here it's just the Black Elemental, and that is not fairly
common. Of course my brother makes a lot of money, but hey, kid,
this should be no prob for us ...

Greenhorne , ork decker , talking to the whiz street kid
Message no. 23
From: Stefan Struck <struck@******.INFORMATIK.UNI-BONN.DE>
Subject: Re: Astral Space
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 11:21:37 +0200
Mephisto wrote:
(much text deleted)
> the car doesn't harm him.) But what about the driver of the car. He is (on
> the astral plane) solid like a rock, and he has a speed of 100 km per h.
> WHAT happens to the magician who collides with the DRIVER? The driver
> himself is not affected by the magician, because he has no astral presence
> (just assume he's a mundane). But the magician can't 'phase' through the
> driver. So waht happens to him? Can we assume that the laws of physics
My brain is like a sieve but I remember an example in the big black book
about vehicles and astral barriers. There it is stated that a car passes
through an astral barrier unharmed 'cause it's an entire physical object.
The driver in the car is part of the car, so he's physical as well (and
only physical). They show the contrast to a bike: here, the driver is
sitting on the vehicle and is therefor no part of it.
I can't quote the page because I don't have the book with me.

So, what happens: IMO nothing, 'cause something that won't affect astral
barriers, won't affect astral magicians. The biker question is another
thing...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stefan, Son of Yuboert Internet: struck@******.informatik.uni-bonn.de
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"To do is to be" --- Satre
"To be is to do" --- Sokrates
"Do be do be do" --- Sinatra [Taken from
"Subway"]
Message no. 24
From: Keldon Mor Keldon@********.net
Subject: Astral Space
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 03:01:46 -0600
I don't know if this has occurred to anyone else or has been discussed but I
just realized another change in the Magic system the other day...
A person can detect an astral form moving through them via a perception
test. In SR2, moving through living objects was not possible.
So, in SR3, I take it that living bacteria (FAB-32?) and other natural
defenses like ferns and vines that were used to keep astral forms out no
longer has an effect? So we astral projecting mages don't have to worry
about being trapped by these systems (also the FAB netgun). I assume that
megacorps just use wards and such to protect their property? I guess that's
what a Wage Mage Slave does now, 40 hours a week traveling from office to
office maintaining wards...

Peace,
Keldon Mor
Keldon@********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon
Message no. 25
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: Astral Space
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:59:59 +1100
At 03:01 17/03/99 -0600, Keldon Mor wrote:
>I don't know if this has occurred to anyone else or has been discussed but I
>just realized another change in the Magic system the other day...
>A person can detect an astral form moving through them via a perception
>test. In SR2, moving through living objects was not possible.
>So, in SR3, I take it that living bacteria (FAB-32?) and other natural
>defenses like ferns and vines that were used to keep astral forms out no
>longer has an effect? So we astral projecting mages don't have to worry

I hope to see some material on this subject in MITS.

>about being trapped by these systems (also the FAB netgun). I assume that
>megacorps just use wards and such to protect their property? I guess that's
>what a Wage Mage Slave does now, 40 hours a week traveling from office to
>office maintaining wards...

Since SR3, Wards have become far, far more common in my game. They now cost
nothing (other than time) to create rather than 1000¥ per force point as in
SR2, they last multiples of weeks rather than days, the Warding no longer
requires any Sorcery skill, and they can be made permanent. Any punk wiz kid
can throw up a temporary Force 4 Ward around his bedroom that'll probably last
for weeks. Even physads with astral perception can throw up Wards around their
dojo.





Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 26
From: Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject: Astral Space
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:26:46 +0100
> Keldon Mor [SMTP:Keldon@********.net] Wrote:
>
>I don't know if this has occurred to anyone else or has been discussed
but I
>just realized another change in the Magic system the other day...
>A person can detect an astral form moving through them via a perception
>test. In SR2, moving through living objects was not possible.
>So, in SR3, I take it that living bacteria (FAB-32?) and other natural
>defenses like ferns and vines that were used to keep astral forms out
no
>longer has an effect? So we astral projecting mages don't have to worry
>about being trapped by these systems (also the FAB netgun). I assume
that
>megacorps just use wards and such to protect their property? I guess
that's
>what a Wage Mage Slave does now, 40 hours a week traveling from office
to
>office maintaining wards...

(IIRC) it is indeed possible to move through living objects and that
means that living bacteria have less effect. However walking through
living objects did require some specific tests (I don't recall further
details, need to look it up) which could make it more difficult then
"just passing through".

Sven ;-)
Message no. 27
From: LSDodge d7582@*****.com
Subject: Astral Space
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:26:10 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Keldon Mor <Keldon@********.net>
To: Shadowrun Mailing List (New) <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 4:01 AM
Subject: Astral Space


In SR2, moving through living objects was not possible.
>So, in SR3, I take it that living bacteria (FAB-32?) and other natural
>defenses like ferns and vines that were used to keep astral forms out no

Actually I think that there is a DUAL NATURED vine that some places
cultivate on the outsides of their buildings for just that purpose
Message no. 28
From: Wyrmy elfman@******.com
Subject: Astral Space
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:49:55 -0600
>
> Actually I think that there is a DUAL NATURED vine that some places
> cultivate on the outsides of their buildings for just that purpose

this fern....did it attack astral forms? I could just see it.'oh, those
are just ferns."sounds of planst sucking an astral victim dry of al
vital juices "Thats another one down boss..."
--
-W in the light
----------------------------------------------------------
Wyrmy: Wyrm druid, Scholar, Pokemon trainer extroidenaire.
Famous Quote: "Pikachu? What Pikachu?" BZRAK "Oh,(cough), THAT
Pikachu!"
Message no. 29
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Astral Space
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:26:58 EST
In a message dated 3/17/99 4:31:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, d7582@*****.com
writes:

> Actually I think that there is a DUAL NATURED vine that some places
> cultivate on the outsides of their buildings for just that purpose
>

Yup. Its called Awakend Kudsu, or some such, and its mention caused more than
one joke on the ML a bit back.
Message no. 30
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Astral Space
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:20:26 -0600
:I don't know if this has occurred to anyone else or has been discussed
but I
:just realized another change in the Magic system the other day...

You are not the first to notice this... or post about it...

:A person can detect an astral form moving through them via a perception
:test. In SR2, moving through living objects was not possible.
:So, in SR3, I take it that living bacteria (FAB-32?) and other natural
:defenses like ferns and vines that were used to keep astral forms out no
:longer has an effect? So we astral projecting mages don't have to worry
:about being trapped by these systems (also the FAB netgun). I assume that
:megacorps just use wards and such to protect their property? I guess
that's
:what a Wage Mage Slave does now, 40 hours a week traveling from office to
:office maintaining wards...


Yes, if using only SR's basic rules, wards are the primary method of
preventing astral movement and incursion. Astral patrol (by spirits,
mages, or dual para-critters) is the other.
Note that wards can be made permanent (by karma expenditure), and that
their creator is aware when they are attacked and can provide them defense
(spell defense) and karma dice (they may have their own, if permanent).
MITS will cover more esoteric forms of astral security, but it seems
clear from SR3 that only dual natured plants / bacteria / et al would act
as a "barrier" in astral space. Since grounding is no longer a risk, this
is not such a big deal...

Mongoose
Message no. 31
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: Astral Space
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:34:45 +1100
At 08:20 17/03/99 -0600, Mongoose wrote:
> Note that wards can be made permanent (by karma expenditure), and that
>their creator is aware when they are attacked and can provide them defense
>(spell defense) and karma dice (they may have their own, if permanent).

To my understanding, the owner or creator of a barrier or focus is instantly
aware, no matter where they are, when the barrier or focus is attacked.
Further, they may also allocate Spell Defense dice to help the barrier or focus
resist a mana spell, no matter where they are. Lastly, permanent barriers and
foci have their own karma dice for resistance. However, I can't find anything
that says the owner or creator may provide the barrier or foci with karma dice.
Can you provide a reference?





Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 32
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Astral Space
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:34:32 -0600
:To my understanding, the owner or creator of a barrier or focus is
instantly
:aware, no matter where they are, when the barrier or focus is attacked.
:Further, they may also allocate Spell Defense dice to help the barrier or
focus
:resist a mana spell, no matter where they are. Lastly, permanent barriers
and
:foci have their own karma dice for resistance. However, I can't find
anything
:that says the owner or creator may provide the barrier or foci with karma
dice.
:Can you provide a reference?


No, I can't- you seem to have summarized the situation well. It would
be entirely up to GM descretion whether to allow mages to spend karma on
their wards (or other objects and beings) tests. I don't think many would
(or should) allow it. The only karma the book refers to objects using is
that spent by the mage in their creation / bonding.

Mongoose

Further Reading

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