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Message no. 1
From: "Terry L. Amburgey" <xanth@********.uky.edu>
Subject: Astral Stealth
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 16:33:36 -0400
At 12:40 PM 9/25/96 -0600, David wrote:
[snip]
>|BTW my stealthy physad isn't very stealthy
>|when it comes to astral perception; anyone got any creative ideas on
>|how to be sneaky versus astral observers? Terry
>
>Ask a spirit or elemental to wrap its astral form around
>you to disguise yourself as such when viewed from astral
>space.

I'm afraid that being 'disguised' as a spirit would draw even more attention :)
If the pc was in LOS & proper domain of a spirit, would the concealment power
work on the astral?

>Wear a FAB filled suit.

I thought about portable foliage, say a mat with ivy etc. Would movement blow
the effect of having the pc's aura 'blocked'? [Elemental to Watcher "Hey that
bush is walking, alert security]. Of course the BIG drawback is that the rest
of the group would immediately switch his streetname to Chia Pet :)

>Travel underground.

Subway? :) I wonder if an anchored Shape Earth spell is a possibility, or an
earth elemental under his command? Sounds like it might work. Terry

Terry L. Amburgey Email: xanth@***.uky.edu
Associate Professor Phone: (606) 257-7726
College of Business and Economics Fax: (606) 257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506-0034
Message no. 2
From: java <java@**********.COM>
Subject: Astral Stealth?
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:45:28 -0400
Howdy,

Here is a question that was proposed last night during my weekly run, is
there anything like a stealth skill in Astral Space? Anyway to sneak up on
something in astral space? I prostrate myself to the collected knowledge
of the list-gods.




"Irony, It's like goldy or silvery, only different"
Blackadder
Java@**********.com
Message no. 3
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:40:37 -0500
> > Here is a question that was proposed last night during my
weekly run, is
> >there anything like a stealth skill in Astral Space? Anyway to sneak
up on
> >something in astral space? I prostrate myself to the collected
knowledge
> >of the list-gods.
>
> Well, the Stealth skill is general, and various concentrations of it
include
> Urban, Wilderness, so why not Astral?

Stealth in the Astral is like trying to hide in a dark room after being
lit on fire. About the only way to hide in the astral is to hide within a
bigger signature (like a tree).

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
aka The Human Tangent
************
Three sparks that kindle love: a face, demeanour, speech
Three things that hide ugliness: good manners in the ill-favoured,
skill in a serf, wisdom in the misshapen.
Three things that ruin wisdom: ignorance, inaccurate knowledge,
forgetfullness. .
Three candles that illume every darkness: truth, nature, knowledge.
Three signs of a bad man: bitterness, hatred, cowardice.
Message no. 4
From: Mike Loseke <mike@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:31:55 -0600
Thus spake Nexx:
>
> > > Here is a question that was proposed last night during my
> weekly run, is
> > >there anything like a stealth skill in Astral Space? Anyway to sneak
> up on
> > >something in astral space? I prostrate myself to the collected
> knowledge
> > >of the list-gods.
> >
> > Well, the Stealth skill is general, and various concentrations of it
> include
> > Urban, Wilderness, so why not Astral?
>
> Stealth in the Astral is like trying to hide in a dark room after being
> lit on fire. About the only way to hide in the astral is to hide within a
> bigger signature (like a tree).

This same analogy can be used to describe all of the stealth skills. I do
seem to recall somewhere in one of the books (either BBB or Awakenings)
it says that stealth in astral space can't be done. However, I would
allow it by reasoning of the above analogy. An astral entity should be
able to attempt to be stealthy by hiding, or masking, his aura with the
auras of other living material. I'd just make the target number a bit
higher, like an 8 at minimum.

--
Mike Loseke | Unix: Best used by its freshness
mike@*******.com | date of January 19, 2038
Message no. 5
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:50:56 -0700
----------
> From: Mike Loseke <mike@*******.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
> Date: Monday, April 20, 1998 9:31 AM
>
> Thus spake Nexx:
> >
> > > > Here is a question that was proposed last night during my
> > weekly run, is
> > > >there anything like a stealth skill in Astral Space? Anyway to
sneak
> > up on
> > > >something in astral space? I prostrate myself to the collected
> > knowledge
> > > >of the list-gods.
> > >
> > > Well, the Stealth skill is general, and various concentrations of it
> > include
> > > Urban, Wilderness, so why not Astral?
> >
> > Stealth in the Astral is like trying to hide in a dark room
after being
> > lit on fire. About the only way to hide in the astral is to hide
within a
> > bigger signature (like a tree).
>
> This same analogy can be used to describe all of the stealth skills. I
do
> seem to recall somewhere in one of the books (either BBB or Awakenings)
> it says that stealth in astral space can't be done. However, I would
> allow it by reasoning of the above analogy. An astral entity should be
> able to attempt to be stealthy by hiding, or masking, his aura with the
> auras of other living material. I'd just make the target number a bit
> higher, like an 8 at minimum.

And would that be with or without the special skill "Astral Stealth"?
Message no. 6
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:11:37 -0500
On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:31:55 -0600 Mike Loseke <mike@*******.COM> writes:
>Thus spake Nexx:
>> > > Here is a question that was proposed last night during my
weekly run, is
>> > >there anything like a stealth skill in Astral Space? Anyway to
sneak up on
>> > >something in astral space? I prostrate myself to the collected
knowledge of the list-gods.
>> > Well, the Stealth skill is general, and various concentrations of it
include
>> > Urban, Wilderness, so why not Astral?
>> Stealth in the Astral is like trying to hide in a dark room
after being
>> lit on fire. About the only way to hide in the astral is to hide
within a
>> bigger signature (like a tree).
> This same analogy can be used to describe all of the stealth skills. I
do
>seem to recall somewhere in one of the books (either BBB or Awakenings)
>it says that stealth in astral space can't be done. However, I would
>allow it by reasoning of the above analogy. An astral entity should be
>able to attempt to be stealthy by hiding, or masking, his aura with the
>auras of other living material. I'd just make the target number a bit
>higher, like an 8 at minimum.
> Mike Loseke | Unix: Best used by its freshness

Awakenings said that on Page 97. Astral Characters cannot hide except
behind any kind of cover (non-living or living). Note that in Nexx's
example an astrally projecting mage could on ly hid in a tree if there
was a hole in it big enough to fit the magician. (the tree's alive and
you can't project through living organisms). Also, a projecting magician
or free spirit with the Aura Masking ability can try to mask his/her/its
aura to make it look like something else. Also background count and The
Astral Static interfere with Astral perception...

D. Ghost
(AKA Pixel, Tantrum)
"Have you seen any invisible people come through here?"

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Message no. 7
From: Brian Moore <mooreb@*****.FAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:17:48 -0400
java <java@**********.com> said:
> Here is a question that was proposed last night during my weekly run, is
> there anything like a stealth skill in Astral Space? Anyway to sneak up on
> something in astral space? I prostrate myself to the collected knowledge
> of the list-gods.

IMHO, yes. It is simply another concentration of Stealth. Astral space is
a little different, so you do things like:

Move through buildings by following conduits or crawlspaces
Hide in closets or cabinets, peek out through the cracks
Peek into rooms from the corners to minimize exposure
Enter rooms from unexpected places
Keep other people between you and watchers
Use hard cover to approach things

And the best item... If someone is floating astrally high in the air, with
a completely unobstructed view of everything around them, you can still get
them. Figure out where they are looking, then use fast astral movement to
sneak up behind them.

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:11:28 +0100
Nexx said on 10:40/20 Apr 98...

> Stealth in the Astral is like trying to hide in a dark room after being
> lit on fire. About the only way to hide in the astral is to hide within a
> bigger signature (like a tree).

Hopefully, you mean a hollow tree :) The only way I allow characters to
hide on the astral plane is when LOS to them is blocked for some reason
(like being behind a wall, tree, bush, car, whatever). But IMHO you can't
sneak around on the astral plane in a way that makes less "astral noise"
than you normally do.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
going down thinking
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 9
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:23:18 -0700
----------
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
> Date: Monday, April 20, 1998 2:11 PM
>
> Nexx said on 10:40/20 Apr 98...
>
> > Stealth in the Astral is like trying to hide in a dark room
after being
> > lit on fire. About the only way to hide in the astral is to hide
within a
> > bigger signature (like a tree).
>
> Hopefully, you mean a hollow tree :) The only way I allow characters to
> hide on the astral plane is when LOS to them is blocked for some reason
> (like being behind a wall, tree, bush, car, whatever). But IMHO you can't
> sneak around on the astral plane in a way that makes less "astral noise"
> than you normally do.

I would view it as being the art of being aware of astral cover and stuff
that's available and how to use it to your best advantage. Peaking through
walls and stuff so that you can get your bearings well without disclosing
your position to watcher spirits. Plus there are a lot of other aspects to
Stealth besides just sneaking about. Trailing, losing trails, etc. Prolly
not as easy as normal stealth, but still a believable skill.
Message no. 10
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:38:09 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
Behalf Of Gurth
Sent: April 20, 1998 5:11 PM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?

Hopefully, you mean a hollow tree :) The only way I allow characters to
hide on the astral plane is when LOS to them is blocked for some reason
(like being behind a wall, tree, bush, car, whatever). But IMHO you can't
sneak around on the astral plane in a way that makes less "astral noise"
than you normally do.
========================

Gurth et al,
The skill Astral Stealth would not allow you to make less astral noise, but
train you to take advantage of any astral cover and distractions. Let us not
forget that in the Shadowrun universe astral traffic would be significant.
Ergo, and Astral stealth skill would train you in the proper manner of
maneouvering while in the Astral to minimize your chances of being noticed.
Also, most of the time you would be using such, would be in an urban
setting, lots of cover there.

Katt Freyson
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
Message no. 11
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:00:53 EDT
In a message dated 4/20/98 4:24:36 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
nexx@********.NET writes:

> > Well, the Stealth skill is general, and various concentrations of it
> include
> > Urban, Wilderness, so why not Astral?
>
> Stealth in the Astral is like trying to hide in a dark room after
> being
> lit on fire. About the only way to hide in the astral is to hide within a
> bigger signature (like a tree).
>
Two things....

A) We put "Astral Stealth" underneath Sorcery (yes, I know it's lame, but
other than creating a special skill, we just didn't believe that "Stealth"
covered such).

B) There are also astral "winds", where the mana shifts dramatically
(variating mana storms, background counts, power site obstructions, regions of
intense emotion, etc.). There are also things like spells (Astral Static)
that create interposing fields of mana energy (like standing behind a Mana
Barrier or similar spell, it creates astral visibility modifiers for anything
"behind it").

Study of the idea is moving forward, but I think that FASA wants to create
some good stable rules on "Astral Actions" that work nicer before they go into
"more developed concepts" such as "Astral Stealth".

-K
Message no. 12
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:06:55 -0700
----------
> From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
> Date: Monday, April 20, 1998 3:38 PM
>
> The skill Astral Stealth would not allow you to make less astral
noise, but
> train you to take advantage of any astral cover and distractions. Let us
not
> forget that in the Shadowrun universe astral traffic would be
significant.
> Ergo, and Astral stealth skill would train you in the proper manner of
> maneouvering while in the Astral to minimize your chances of being
noticed.
> Also, most of the time you would be using such, would be in an urban
> setting, lots of cover there.
>

While I do agree regarding most of that, I think Astral traffic would be
relative... I mean, Downtown Seattle may have a healthy dose of astral
happenings, but I don't think that level of traffic is really going to be
seen in, oh... your average corp installation?

Though this makes me wonder something... has anyone tried spamming a
facility that's being astrally monitored by watchers? Like conjuring a ton
of really small spirits and lobbing them at a corp facility in order to set
off repeated false alarms? After a while it could get them a little lazy
about responding to astral alerts. ;)
Message no. 13
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:04:22 -0500
> Nexx said on 10:40/20 Apr 98...
>
> > Stealth in the Astral is like trying to hide in a dark room
after being
> > lit on fire. About the only way to hide in the astral is to hide
within a
> > bigger signature (like a tree).
>
> Hopefully, you mean a hollow tree :)

Not necessarily. Some tree have a nice open area one could hide in
amongst the branches (Live Oaks come to mind). After all, you don't need
to hold on to anything to stay up there.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
aka The Human Tangent
************
Three sparks that kindle love: a face, demeanour, speech
Three things that hide ugliness: good manners in the ill-favoured,
skill in a serf, wisdom in the misshapen.
Three things that ruin wisdom: ignorance, inaccurate knowledge,
forgetfullness. .
Three candles that illume every darkness: truth, nature, knowledge.
Three signs of a bad man: bitterness, hatred, cowardice.
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:59:13 +0100
Katt Freyson said on 18:38/20 Apr 98...

> The skill Astral Stealth would not allow you to make less astral noise, but
> train you to take advantage of any astral cover and distractions.

That's what I suggested too, isn't it? Normal (physical plane) Stealth
skill allows you to hide behind cover and walk around making little noise,
but the latter wouldn't be applicable on the astral plane, IMHO -- so, an
Astral concentration of Stealth skill would only allow you to hide.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
going down thinking
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:59:13 +0100
Nexx said on 20:04/20 Apr 98...

> > Hopefully, you mean a hollow tree :)
>
> Not necessarily. Some tree have a nice open area one could hide in
> amongst the branches (Live Oaks come to mind). After all, you don't need
> to hold on to anything to stay up there.

True, if there's enough space between the branches (and leaves, if there
are any on the tree) for yur aura to fit through, you could hide there as
well. When someone says "hide in a tree" I think of sitting _inside_ it,
instead of between the branches...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
going down thinking
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
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Message no. 16
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:37:55 +0000
> Though this makes me wonder something... has anyone tried spamming a
> facility that's being astrally monitored by watchers? Like conjuring a ton
> of really small spirits and lobbing them at a corp facility in order to set
> off repeated false alarms? After a while it could get them a little lazy
> about responding to astral alerts. ;)

I disagree. If your fence alarm keeps going off, you can blame it on
animals or errors. If you keep getting buzzed by spirits, you know:

1) Someone is doing it
2) that someone is magically active, and thus dangerous.

They might get tense, but they aren't going to relax. They'll call
in reinforcements.


-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 17
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:39:33 +0000
> True, if there's enough space between the branches (and leaves, if there
> are any on the tree) for yur aura to fit through, you could hide there as
> well. When someone says "hide in a tree" I think of sitting _inside_ it,
> instead of between the branches...

...Which says something about us, since anyone else in the world
(read: norms) would think about hiding among the branches. :)

-=SwiftOne=-
it's only a game, It's only a game...
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 18
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:15:32 -0500
> When someone says "hide in a tree" I think of sitting _inside_ it,
> instead of between the branches...

You obviously didn't spend four years just up the hill from a big-ass
stretch of woods when you were younger...
Message no. 19
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:08:24 -0700
----------
> From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
> Date: Tuesday, April 21, 1998 1:37 AM
>
> > Though this makes me wonder something... has anyone tried spamming a
> > facility that's being astrally monitored by watchers? Like conjuring a
ton
> > of really small spirits and lobbing them at a corp facility in order to
set
> > off repeated false alarms? After a while it could get them a little
lazy
> > about responding to astral alerts. ;)
>
> I disagree. If your fence alarm keeps going off, you can blame it on
> animals or errors. If you keep getting buzzed by spirits, you know:
>
> 1) Someone is doing it
> 2) that someone is magically active, and thus dangerous.
>
> They might get tense, but they aren't going to relax. They'll call
> in reinforcements.
>
>

Oh, sure... just dump on my idea. =)

Seriously, though... how well do most people populate astral space? I ask
because it's something that never comes up in our group. Not much really
happens when our mages go out on an astral jaunt... but it occurs to me
that there's probably some degree of stuff going on... at the very least
you have summoned spirits jaunting about on errands, ritual sendings going
out to smite some poor shmuck, the occasional astral mage on his way from
point a to point b, not to mention any number of free spirits, astral
creatures ("I am Nomad"), and dual-natured critters.

I don't find it that unreasonable that a corporation would get astral false
alarms. I don't remember how bright watcher spirits are, so I may be off
on this point, but I can't imagine it taking a whole lot of provocation to
set it off, and then it shoots off to alert a security guard, who then has
to go astrally check the location (on the assumption here that watchers
aren't that bright) just to see if anyone is snooping about the place.

I suppose lobbing gobs of spirits at the place might not be a good idea,
but if you've got a long range goal against a site, the occasional false
alarm to shake up the place might not hurt. Maybe even mix it up a bit.
Toss a watcher spirit their way one day, a few days later invest in some
meta-pigeons that are dual natured, and let them buzz around in their
compound. The next week cajole a free spirit into going by a couple times
and devilling the watchers. It will get really old after a while.

Or, even if I'm just full of crap and this idea would not get them to let
down their guard and get sloppy, this could have a couple of other uses:

1. Piss them off. You might not have a mission against them... you may
just bear them ill will and you would love to tweak them.
2. Distract them from a real target. Get them thinking that there's going
to be a big hit on their site, let them build up reinforcments, then hit
someplace across town.

--------------------------------------------
Jeremy "Bolthy" Zimmerman
--------------------------------------------
Custom Project Center, Cobalt Group
Contributor to The Amber Project
Maintainer of the ERB Ring and the Ring of Fnords
Minister, Scribe, Doctor of Divinity, and SAINT, ULC
POEE Chaplin of the Legion of Dynamic Discord
--------------------------------------------
(206)269-6363x315
jeremy@***********.com
bolthy@******.com
ICQ#1616620
Bolthy - http://www.bolthy.com
DefCon One - http://www.defconone.com
The Amber Project - http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/8252/
The ERB Ring - http://www.bolthy.com/erbring
Ring of Fnords - http://www.bolthy.com/fnord
--------------------------------------------
"Please explain to me the psychological nature of 'the whammy'."
- Scully
--------------------------------------------
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:34:21 +0100
Jeremy \ said on 9:08/21 Apr 98...

> Seriously, though... how well do most people populate astral space? I ask
> because it's something that never comes up in our group. Not much really
> happens when our mages go out on an astral jaunt...

As a GM, I don't usually mention passerbys (sp?) in astral space, but then
I hardly ever mention pedestrians walking on the street either.

> I don't find it that unreasonable that a corporation would get astral false
> alarms. I don't remember how bright watcher spirits are, so I may be off
> on this point, but I can't imagine it taking a whole lot of provocation to
> set it off, and then it shoots off to alert a security guard, who then has
> to go astrally check the location (on the assumption here that watchers
> aren't that bright) just to see if anyone is snooping about the place.

Not to mention the watchers sent out to search someone who will set off
magical security.

> Or, even if I'm just full of crap and this idea would not get them to let
> down their guard and get sloppy, this could have a couple of other uses:
>
> 1. Piss them off. You might not have a mission against them... you may
> just bear them ill will and you would love to tweak them.

Not something shadowrunners do a lot, IMHO. Still, if you hold a grudge
against the corp in question, you could do this. If spirits have the
conjurer's "signature" attached to them (like spells do, see Awakenings),
this could get you into a lot of trouble.

> 2. Distract them from a real target. Get them thinking that there's going
> to be a big hit on their site, let them build up reinforcments, then hit
> someplace across town.

This would be a better use for such tactics. A bit more subtle than
setting off a bomb across town, too.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
going down thinking
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Message no. 21
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:53:07 -0700
----------
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
> Date: Tuesday, April 21, 1998 1:34 PM
>
> Jeremy \ said on 9:08/21 Apr 98...
>
> > Seriously, though... how well do most people populate astral space? I
ask
> > because it's something that never comes up in our group. Not much
really
> > happens when our mages go out on an astral jaunt...
>
> As a GM, I don't usually mention passerbys (sp?) in astral space, but
then
> I hardly ever mention pedestrians walking on the street either.
>

Yeah... I mean, I've GMed and played a lot, and except when it was vaguely
important to the plot (one of your teammates just set off a grenade in
squatter housing, and everyone flees from the building like rats from a
sinking ship, making escape difficult...), we may as well have been on an
empty street. It never occured to me until today that I'd done that. Or
that anyone in our group had done that. If we wanted to talk to
pedestrians, we could. Otherwise, they were pretty much not there.

> > I don't find it that unreasonable that a corporation would get astral
false
> > alarms. I don't remember how bright watcher spirits are, so I may be
off
> > on this point, but I can't imagine it taking a whole lot of provocation
to
> > set it off, and then it shoots off to alert a security guard, who then
has
> > to go astrally check the location (on the assumption here that watchers
> > aren't that bright) just to see if anyone is snooping about the place.
>
> Not to mention the watchers sent out to search someone who will set off
> magical security.
>

Exactly.

> > Or, even if I'm just full of crap and this idea would not get them to
let
> > down their guard and get sloppy, this could have a couple of other
uses:
> >
> > 1. Piss them off. You might not have a mission against them... you
may
> > just bear them ill will and you would love to tweak them.
>
> Not something shadowrunners do a lot, IMHO. Still, if you hold a grudge
> against the corp in question, you could do this. If spirits have the
> conjurer's "signature" attached to them (like spells do, see Awakenings),
> this could get you into a lot of trouble.
>

I guess we know different shadowrunners... my group is rather spiteful...
The signature thing is valid, though... the thought occured to me five
seconds after I sent my message off. I wonder what the mechanics for that
would be though... I don't recall how long it takes to analyze a signature,
but how possible would it be to analyze the signature of something like a
watcher after it disappears? That would be kinda rough. If a mage was
astral when the spirit showed up, and the spirit stuck around long enough
to allow the mage to analyze it (or else the mage was able to keep up with
the spirit), then I think it could happen... but otherwise.... Hrm. Not
something to try against Renraku, I guess. =)

> > 2. Distract them from a real target. Get them thinking that there's
going
> > to be a big hit on their site, let them build up reinforcments, then
hit
> > someplace across town.
>
> This would be a better use for such tactics. A bit more subtle than
> setting off a bomb across town, too.
>

=)
Message no. 22
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:14:32 -0400
At 09:34 PM 4/21/98 +0100, you wrote:

>> 2. Distract them from a real target. Get them thinking that there's going
>> to be a big hit on their site, let them build up reinforcments, then hit
>> someplace across town.
>
>This would be a better use for such tactics. A bit more subtle than
>setting off a bomb across town, too.

Now this has a certain amount of elegance to it. It's non-lethal,
non-destructive, and it would be nearly as effective. Of course, it would
only work on a locale that is known to have some magical defenses (and not
all do).

The only glitch would be if it is possible to see an astral signature on a
spirit that would allow you to determine who the conjurer is, much like
with spells (see Awakenings). But I don't believe that to be true, at
least not at this juncture, so I'd say it's a go!

I *like* this idea. It, like I said, just has a certain amount of elegance
to it that a bombing simply lacks.

Erik J.


"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
Message no. 23
From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:28:57 +0100
>>
>> > Stealth in the Astral is like trying to hide in a dark room
>after being
>> > lit on fire. About the only way to hide in the astral is to hide
>within a
>> > bigger signature (like a tree).
>>
>> Hopefully, you mean a hollow tree :)
>
>Not necessarily. Some tree have a nice open area one could hide in
>amongst the branches (Live Oaks come to mind). After all, you don't need
>to hold on to anything to stay up there.
>

So long as you can find a way in, the heartwood of a large tree is
essentially dead, in that none of the cells are alive. Your call if an
Astral body could hide here, though Id say there would still be an 'aural
oneness' with the living material, like different parts of a vehicle dont
have individual auras (RBB 1).

Mark
Message no. 24
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:59:38 -0400
Java wrote:
> Here is a question that was proposed last night during my weekly run, is
> there anything like a stealth skill in Astral Space?

This has been answered.

> Anyway to sneak up on something in astral space?

This, however is a slightly different question. Keep in mind that astral
objects can move very, very quickly. It would be trivial to create astral
ambushes if you knew where your target was going to be. For example, say
five magicans want to gang up astrally on Bob. The arrange (somehow) to
have Bob be astrally projecting into a certain office building in Seattle
at 5 pm. At 4:59.59 pm, the magicians can be astrally projecting litterally
anywhere on Earth. Say they are in Hong Kong, Yakutsk, Pueblo, Sydney and
Rio at one second to 5 pm (Seattle time). Assuming they had a good sense of
timing, they all could motor to ambush Bob.

From Bob's point of view, five magicians more or less just popped into the
room and pummeled him. If Bob is smart, he might use that same astral speed
to leave very quickly.

So, it's not exactly the kind of "sneaking up" you might have had in mind,
but the end result is sort of the same.

Wordman
Message no. 25
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:39:32 +0100
Jeremy \ said on 13:53/21 Apr 98...

> > I hardly ever mention pedestrians walking on the street either.
>
> Yeah... I mean, I've GMed and played a lot, and except when it was vaguely
> important to the plot (one of your teammates just set off a grenade in
> squatter housing, and everyone flees from the building like rats from a
> sinking ship, making escape difficult...), we may as well have been on an
> empty street. It never occured to me until today that I'd done that. Or
> that anyone in our group had done that. If we wanted to talk to
> pedestrians, we could. Otherwise, they were pretty much not there.

I've sort of taught my players that if I don't describe something, it
doesn't mean it's not there. If they want to use something I haven't
mentioned is there, I decide whether it would be there or not, and if it's
in the best interests of the adventure that it's there, and then either
tell them they can do it, or that the item isn't around. Diving behind a
parked car or a dumpster to take cover is an example.

> I guess we know different shadowrunners... my group is rather spiteful...
> The signature thing is valid, though... the thought occured to me five
> seconds after I sent my message off.

Note that I'm not certain spirits have such signatures. Awakenings only
mentions it for spells.

> I wonder what the mechanics for that would be though... I don't recall
> how long it takes to analyze a signature, but how possible would it be
> to analyze the signature of something like a watcher after it
> disappears?

Observing the signature of a spell is a Perception test with a TN equal to
the caster's Magic Attribute, and costs a Simple Action (Awakenings, pp.
98-99). Identifying the signature takes a Complex Action, immediately
after the Simple Action to observe it (actually Awakenings says they must
be in the same turn, but IMHO it's sufficient to say that the Complex
Action must be the first action after the Simple one). This requires a
skill test.

Now the questions are whether spirits have such signatures, and if they
do, how the rules should be modified to alow magicians to recognize it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
going down thinking
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 26
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:06:05 -0300
Gurth wrote:


(snip)


> Now the questions are whether spirits have such signatures, and if they
> do, how the rules should be modified to alow magicians to recognize it.

I think of spirits as living and independent entities, so they don't
have
the signature of the summoner, only spells do. Although some
spell-casting
free spirits could have their own "sigs"... Any ideas on that?

Ubiratan
Message no. 27
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:47:10 +0100
Ubiratan P. Alberton said on 21:06/22 Apr 98...

> I think of spirits as living and independent entities, so they don't
> have the signature of the summoner, only spells do. Although some
> spell-casting free spirits could have their own "sigs"... Any ideas on
> that?

If (meta)human magicians put signatures on their spells, I don't see why
spellcasting spirits shouldn't. The signatures may not be easily
comparable between human spellcasters and spirit spellcasters, but IMHO
they are there.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
going down thinking
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 28
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:32:57 -0400
At 11:47 AM 4/23/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Ubiratan P. Alberton said on 21:06/22 Apr 98...
>
>> I think of spirits as living and independent entities, so they don't
>> have the signature of the summoner, only spells do. Although some
>> spell-casting free spirits could have their own "sigs"... Any ideas on
>> that?
>
>If (meta)human magicians put signatures on their spells, I don't see why
>spellcasting spirits shouldn't. The signatures may not be easily
>comparable between human spellcasters and spirit spellcasters, but IMHO
>they are there.

Yeah, free spirits would have their own signatures.

Here's a possible answer to the previous question though. Elementals and
Spirits are independent entities in some sense, but Watchers aren't. That
would mean that summoned spirits and elementals wouldn't have their
conjurers signature impressed upon them. Watchers however, being purely
their casters' conciosness impressed upon the astral (or something like
that according to the Grimmy), would have as identifiable a signature of
their conjurer as a spell would have.

Make sense?

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 29
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Astral Stealth?
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:02:34 +0100
Erik Jameson said on 12:32/23 Apr 98...

> Here's a possible answer to the previous question though. Elementals and
> Spirits are independent entities in some sense, but Watchers aren't. That
> would mean that summoned spirits and elementals wouldn't have their
> conjurers signature impressed upon them. Watchers however, being purely
> their casters' conciosness impressed upon the astral (or something like
> that according to the Grimmy), would have as identifiable a signature of
> their conjurer as a spell would have.
>
> Make sense?

I can live with that. Not sure if my players can too, though :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
going down thinking
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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