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Message no. 1
From: Kevin White <kevw@*****.CO.UK>
Subject: A thought on Damage
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:37:46 +0100
One thing I noticed when I was playing SR (years ago) about melee combat
was that in a fairly even fight the individual who got the first hit in
was invariably the one to win in the end. This I surmised was to do with
the target number modifications from wounds; a +1 can make a hell of a
lot of difference.

Now my thought/query/idea-to-be-shot-down-in-flames: I can't remember if
it vanilla rules but after a deadly wound a character can take his body
as overflow damage before he really bits the big one, how about putting
this overflow damage before the wound level mods.

So for example Bob the Bouncer and Gemmima the ganger are having an
altercation concerning Gemmimas dress sense and Bobs unwillingness to
allow her into *his* club (this is experience talking :)). Anyway, Bob
has a body of 4 and an unarmed of 4, Gemmima has a body of 3 and an
unarmed of 4.

Excluding any other mods each has a target number of 4 averging 2
successes. Say Bob takes a light wound then his TN is now 5 and his
average number of successes is 1 and a bit. Not a lot in this example
but throw in some combat pool and the difference becomes significant.

If on the other hand each could take a couple of small wounds before
actually suffering any TN mods things would change more in the favour of
Bob (cause he is bulkier and can take more small wounds) with all else
being equal.

I think this would lead to more of the heroic sort of fighting one sees
in the likes of Hard Boiled and Killer.

Any comments on this would be appreciated as it is not really completely
formed in my grey matter having just popped in whilst I'm sitting here
trying not to work! Also I don't quite know how it would affect drain
for wizzers.

Diamond
Message no. 2
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: A thought on Damage
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:30:17 EST
> One thing I noticed when I was playing SR (years ago) about melee
> combat was that in a fairly even fight the individual who got the
> first hit in was invariably the one to win in the end. This I
> surmised was to do with the target number modifications from wounds;
> a +1 can make a hell of a lot of difference.

Hmm.. Can't say I like your solution. This has to do with the funky
way SR deals with Melee.....each action represents several moves, so
when I score a "hit", it represents the culmination of minor damage
from a flurry of moves.....(And yet takes the same time as shooting
two bullets....)

And in RL, (at least version 1.1b....have you upgraded?) once your
opponent gets a good hit on you, you ARE at a disadvantage....despite
movie heroes ability to "forget" they a minute ago they were
hamburger.
Message no. 3
From: Raven <florian.goll@******.UNI-WEIMAR.DE>
Subject: Re: A thought on Damage
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 14:34:10 +0000
> Now my thought/query/idea-to-be-shot-down-in-flames: I can't remember if
> it vanilla rules but after a deadly wound a character can take his body
> as overflow damage before he really bits the big one, how about putting
> this overflow damage before the wound level mods.
<snip example>
> Excluding any other mods each has a target number of 4 averging 2
> successes. Say Bob takes a light wound then his TN is now 5 and his
> average number of successes is 1 and a bit. Not a lot in this example
> but throw in some combat pool and the difference becomes significant.
>
> If on the other hand each could take a couple of small wounds before
> actually suffering any TN mods things would change more in the favour of
> Bob (cause he is bulkier and can take more small wounds) with all else
> being equal.

What about doing it only in close combat. BTW if one has a higher
body, he is better in surviving (resisting higher damage) so IMO it's
not necessary to do such a thing.
--Raven

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G(++) e>++++ h--(---) !r z?
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Message no. 4
From: Kevin White <kevw@*****.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: A thought on Damage
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:44:51 +0100
Brett Borger wrote:
> Hmm.. Can't say I like your solution. This has to do with the funky
> way SR deals with Melee.....each action represents several moves, so
> when I score a "hit", it represents the culmination of minor damage
> from a flurry of moves.....(And yet takes the same time as shooting
> two bullets....)
>
Sorry, I just limited my example to melee, it may work well on the
whole... who knows!

> And in RL, (at least version 1.1b....have you upgraded?) once your
> opponent gets a good hit on you, you ARE at a disadvantage....despite
> movie heroes ability to "forget" they a minute ago they were
> hamburger.

I appreciate that it is not realistic... that wasn't my aim, I like the
idea of these long drawn out fights of the Hong Kong and MA film variety
that is what I was thinking.


Diamond
Message no. 5
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: A thought on Damage
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:32:58 -0500
At 10:37 AM 6/24/97 +0100, Kevin White wrote:
>One thing I noticed when I was playing SR (years ago) about melee combat
>was that in a fairly even fight the individual who got the first hit in
>was invariably the one to win in the end. This I surmised was to do with
>the target number modifications from wounds; a +1 can make a hell of a
>lot of difference.

16.7% advantage for each TN mod. Pretty nasty, eh? (wishes in futility
once again that SR had used 10-siders and a 6 base TN)

>Now my thought/query/idea-to-be-shot-down-in-flames: I can't remember if
>it vanilla rules but after a deadly wound a character can take his body
>as overflow damage before he really bits the big one, how about putting
>this overflow damage before the wound level mods.

>[snipped the example]

>I think this would lead to more of the heroic sort of fighting one sees
>in the likes of Hard Boiled and Killer.

>Any comments on this would be appreciated as it is not really completely
>formed in my grey matter having just popped in whilst I'm sitting here
>trying not to work! Also I don't quite know how it would affect drain
>for wizzers.

Personally, I like my overflow damage used as such. Last thing I'd want to
realize is that I'd used up all but two of my boxes and then took two
serious wounds. But from a game-perspective (aside from the fact that it's
a non-official rule) I really can't see it working out. It makes the physad
power of Pain Resistance and the High Pain Tolerance edge next to useless
and the Will to Live edge absolutely amazing.

And if you really want characters that look like they came out of a Woo
movie, load 'em to the gills with Body, PR, HPT, and WtL.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 6
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: A thought on Damage
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 14:52:23 -0500
At 24-Jun-97 wrote Kevin White:


>Any comments on this would be appreciated as it is not really completely
>formed in my grey matter having just popped in whilst I'm sitting here
>trying not to work! Also I don't quite know how it would affect drain
>for wizzers.

At first glance a reasonable idea but think again.
Body is used in the damage finding process allready.
Using it twice would rise its important much more.
So for a troll you must kill him before he would get any target mods
No way.

For a pure movie style its ok but normaly its to unbalancing.
ARRghhh....And this comment comes from me
--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 7
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: A thought on Damage
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 04:14:45 +0000
> I appreciate that it is not realistic... that wasn't my aim, I like the
> idea of these long drawn out fights of the Hong Kong and MA film variety
> that is what I was thinking.

Well, just halve all penalties for close combat rather than just
visibility penalties then (rounding down). It's easily justified by
the fact that melee modifiers count a lot more than firearm ones, and
thus should be balanced out a bit.

--
Rune Fostervoll

"But the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we no not of."
Message no. 8
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: A thought on Damage
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 09:24:59 -0600
Kevin White wrote:
|
| Now my thought/query/idea-to-be-shot-down-in-flames: I can't remember if
| it vanilla rules but after a deadly wound a character can take his body
| as overflow damage before he really bits the big one, how about putting
| this overflow damage before the wound level mods.

The problem is that trolls become nigh invulnerable. Also, SR damage
system is fairly abstract and any changes become big ones. A better
way might be to give characters with so many points of Willpower free
levels of pain resistance. I'd use the strength/recoil table in FoF,
replacing strength with willpower, and the recoil bonuses with levels
of pain resistance. If someone has a high enough willpower to get +4
pain resistance, then they could take up to 4 boxes of damage without
worrying about wound modifiers. However, once they take that 5th box
of damage all wound modifiers are applied.

YMMV :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 9
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: A thought on Damage
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 08:52:24 -0500
At 25-Jun-97 wrote David Buehrer:


>The problem is that trolls become nigh invulnerable. Also, SR damage
>system is fairly abstract and any changes become big ones. A better
>way might be to give characters with so many points of Willpower free
>levels of pain resistance. I'd use the strength/recoil table in FoF,
>replacing strength with willpower, and the recoil bonuses with levels
>of pain resistance. If someone has a high enough willpower to get +4
>pain resistance, then they could take up to 4 boxes of damage without
>worrying about wound modifiers. However, once they take that 5th box
>of damage all wound modifiers are applied.

Hmmm something to try out, definetly.
How about using the first aid table modifiers instead?

--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 10
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: A thought on Damage
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 07:21:14 -0600
Barbie wrote:
|
| At 25-Jun-97 wrote David Buehrer:
|
[snip: High Willpower = Pain Resistance]
|
| Hmmm something to try out, definetly.
| How about using the first aid table modifiers instead?

Hey, I like it. Don't know if I'll do this, but the first aid table
looks like the best one to use. Good one Barbie :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
Message no. 11
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: A thought on Damage
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 14:32:53 -0500
At 27-Jun-97 wrote David Buehrer:


>Hey, I like it. Don't know if I'll do this, but the first aid table
>looks like the best one to use. Good one Barbie :)

Thanks sometimes even I have my light moments :-))

--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

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