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Message no. 1
From: Stefan Willkofer <stefan.willkofer@*****.PHYSIK.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE>
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 15:26:15 --100
> I believe the actual location of Atlantis to be inside the Bermuda Triangle.
>
I don't know how familiar you are with Earthdawn, but maybe you can give an
answer to this question: Is Thera Atlanis?
Everything indicates this, like Ehran THE SCRIBE's at the YET, where
he describes the fate of Atlantis. But there is no real proof. Atlantis
couls also be a rival empire to the Theran Empire.
What is you opinion, Tom Craig?

St.Willkofer
Message no. 2
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Atlantis
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 16:02:05 -0500
FASA would have to strech things to make Thera and Atlantis one and the same.
I have read the ED sourcebook and Thera, although created by an elf, is
controlled by humans. Atlantis on the other hand was created and controlled
by elvenkind for its duration. So IMHO I think that Atlantis should be
considered a rival power to Thera.
Tom Craig
Message no. 3
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 10:18:18 -0700
Paulo Marcuccio has something about Atlantis in his WWW site.

What it is, is Ehran the Scribes speach to YET (Young Elven Technologists)

In it he talks about Antlantis and cycles of magic.

What I want to know is - IS THIS FROM FASA

ie - did FASA write this, and basically where did it come from?

Nightfox
Message no. 4
From: wadycki andrew m <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Atlantis
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 11:40:43 -0600
On Tue, 29 Nov 1994, Nightfox wrote:

> Paulo Marcuccio has something about Atlantis in his WWW site.
>
> What it is, is Ehran the Scribes speach to YET (Young Elven Technologists)
>
> In it he talks about Antlantis and cycles of magic.
>
> What I want to know is - IS THIS FROM FASA
>
> ie - did FASA write this, and basically where did it come from?
>
> Nightfox
>
Ehran's speach was in the first free flyer from FASA. It is an official
FASA item that was refered to once in Tir. Hope this helps.
-Andrew
Message no. 5
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@***.TS.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: Atlantis (fwd)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 08:56:37 MET
> Paulo Marcuccio has something about Atlantis in his WWW site.

Ouch. Paolo Marcucci, that is. Ouch :)

> What it is, is Ehran the Scribes speach to YET (Young Elven Technologists)
> In it he talks about Antlantis and cycles of magic.
> What I want to know is - IS THIS FROM FASA
> ie - did FASA write this, and basically where did it come from?
> Nightfox

I've received this story as a mail from Ken Webb. Here's a short blurb
he put at the beginning of the mail:
---------
...from the first UPDATE is here. I had to type it in as no one I
know has OCR capabilities. I can't help but think that I saw this once
somewhere in another SR publication, but I can't put my finger on it now.
The other story is too long so I can snail mail it to you if you want.
Neither story has a credit to an author. The story starts now:
---------
So I don't know exactly where this story come from, but could be taken
from a SR sourcebook (I don't have all ones). If someone have access to
AOL, there should be some stories in the FASA's archive. Alas, I think
I have collected them all.

Any news about this will be appreciated.

Bye, Paolo
--
________________________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci
marcucci@***.ts.astro.it
http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci/home.html
"Reboot it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" - Gareth Owen :)
Message no. 6
From: Ken Webb <hbphy009@****.CSUN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Atlantis (fwd)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 07:22:50 +0800
On Wed, 30 Nov 1994, Paolo Marcucci wrote:

> ---------[Ken Webb wrote this...]
> ...from the first UPDATE is here. I had to type it in as no one I
> know has OCR capabilities. I can't help but think that I saw this once
> somewhere in another SR publication, but I can't put my finger on it now.
> The other story is too long so I can snail mail it to you if you want.
> Neither story has a credit to an author. The story starts now:
> ---------[End of Ken's section]

> So I don't know exactly where this story come from, but could be taken
> from a SR sourcebook (I don't have all ones). If someone have access to
> AOL, there should be some stories in the FASA's archive. Alas, I think
> I have collected them all.
> Bye, Paolo

As I recall, the update in which the Ehran speech appeared came out in
1989. It had the same cover as the (first edition, of course) rule book.
At the time it came out, there weren't many sourcebooks out so
I think the update was the first place the speech was published. I
mentioned that I thought I saw it in another publication, but it might
have been just the reference that I saw in Tir (someone else on the
list mentioned that there was a reference in Tir earlier.) I still hope
to type in the other long story in that first update and submit it to
Paolo's WWW page. It was called Rex Tremendae (I think I got the spelling
right-I don't have it with me.)
--
[^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^T^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^]
[ Kenneth M. Webb I "A shadow shall fall over the universe... ]
[ <hbphy009@****.csun.edu> I and evil will grow in its path... ]
[ I and death will come from the skies." ]
[ LOC-NAR I --HEAVY METAL ]
[_/^\_/^\_/^\_/^\_/^\_/^\_/^\_/^\_/^\_/^\_/^\_/^\_/^\_/^\_/^\_/^\_/^\_/^\_/^\]
Message no. 7
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Atlantis (fwd)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 16:58:08 -0500
If someone has a copy of Ehran's speech, would they e-mail me a copy? I
would like to know what FASA stated about Atlantis.
Tom Craig
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Atlantis (fwd)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 18:42:35 +0100
Gurth@***.nl | GEEK CODE (v2.1): GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g P?(3) !au
21st century digital boy | !a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3 E? N++ K-
I don't know how to live | W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@
But I got a lot of toys | D+(++) B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?


> If someone has a copy of Ehran's speech, would they e-mail me a copy? I
> would like to know what FASA stated about Atlantis.

Excuse me for not knowing, but what is this speech people keep talking about?
Message no. 9
From: wadycki andrew m <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Atlantis (fwd)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 11:51:55 -0600
On Thu, 1 Dec 1994, Gurth wrote:

> > If someone has a copy of Ehran's speech, would they e-mail me a copy? I
> > would like to know what FASA stated about Atlantis.
>
> Excuse me for not knowing, but what is this speech people keep talking about?
>
The speech is a speech Ehran gave to the YET. It talks about atlantis,
the cycles of magic, and how the humans are confused. It was printed in
a free flyer that FASA released and is referred to in Tir.

-Andrew
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Atlantis (fwd)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 18:57:47 +0100
Gurth@***.nl | GEEK CODE (v2.1): GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g P?(3) !au
21st century digital boy | !a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3 E? N++ K-
I don't know how to live | W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@
But I got a lot of toys | D+(++) B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?

> The speech is a speech Ehran gave to the YET. It talks about atlantis,
> the cycles of magic, and how the humans are confused. It was printed in
> a free flyer that FASA released and is referred to in Tir.
>

Aha. That explains why I didn't know about it. Can't get my hands on
those flyers around here (come to think of it, I can't get my hands on
any RPG-things around here :( ), but if anyone would be kind enough to
mail it to me, I'd be very happy.
Message no. 11
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Atlantis (fwd)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 13:27:06 -0500
I recieved three copies of Ehran's speech, I thank all of you for sending
them to me.
Tom Craig
Message no. 12
From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Atlantis (fwd)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 14:24:00 EST
About this Atlantis thing, mind posting it to the list? I am very
intrigued. By-the-by, has FASA published an adventure on Atlantis, or
has anyone run one? I am planning to do an Atlantis run for Gen-Con,
and am hoping that it has not been done before.

-Shadowdancer-
Message no. 13
From: Marcel Emami <rab@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-MANNHEIM.DE>
Subject: Re: Atlantis (fwd)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 11:51:25 MEZ
>
> I recieved three copies of Ehran's speech, I thank all of you for sending
> them to me.
> Tom Craig
>

What about posting this speech and all others flyers to this list. I don't
think that everybody has all flyers but everybody is interested in them.
Maybe the listowners can put them on the FAQ or store them some where else


RAB
GM/GO -d+(---) -P+(---) c+(+++) l u e+ m+ s /- n+ h+ f+ g++ w+ t-- r++ y++

rab@***.informatik.uni-mannheim.de
Message no. 14
From: "James W. Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 15:32:14 +0000
So the Immortal elves lived on Atlantis, and moved when the
island sank.... Hmmm. When was this? because history and myths
can patch a lot of this stuff together.=)

At the present moment, Atlantis is the area we call the Azores:
-the 'phantom island' of San Brandan appears here
-this is the centre of the Atlantic Anticyclones that control
the European weather
-FaYAL Island appeared here in 1954
-Volcanic activity on San Miguel
-mysteriously, Petrels fly in circles till exhausted and fall
from the sky nearby
-ships loose thier crews around here regularly
from 1969-1973, five boats where found with all hands missing
in calm weather.
And remember the Marie Celeste.She lost all hands near the
Azores

This shows that the Area is still physically and Magically
active after 12,000 years.
Atlantises Capital, Poseidonis, was made of 'glittering
orichalcum'. That has to be the largest potential focus in
existance.
The area also has strange effects on peaple. Donald Crowhurst
was held trapped in the azores by something he called 'the world
brain'. The captain of the Marie Celeste final note in his log
was 'A strange thing is happening to us...'

What magical forces are still at work from Atlantis's ruins?

CHOPPER
hey look everyone! I've just got Robert Charroux's LOST WORLDS!
Message no. 15
From: "James W. Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: atlantis
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 15:38:05 +0000
When Atlantis sank, where did the Atlantians GO?

The Celtic legends tell of the Tuatha De Danann landing at
Moytura and attacking the Formors.
They brought the Nuada sword, the Lug Spear, the Dagde Cauldron
and the Fal stone, all powerfull magical items.

they where accepted by many of the Celts

And the Mayas and the other south american races tell of White
Gods who come from the sea
(Questlecoatl )

CHOPPER
any ideas?
Message no. 16
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@***.TS.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: atlantis (fwd)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 16:46:57 MET
>
> When Atlantis sank, where did the Atlantians GO?
>
> The Celtic legends tell of the Tuatha De Danann landing at
> Moytura and attacking the Formors.
> They brought the Nuada sword, the Lug Spear, the Dagde Cauldron
> and the Fal stone, all powerfull magical items.
>
> they where accepted by many of the Celts
>
> And the Mayas and the other south american races tell of White
> Gods who come from the sea
> (Questlecoatl )
>
> CHOPPER
> any ideas?
>

I have the faintest about real (!) Atlantis, but maybe they spread up
in three or four "parties" and move to north (Ireland), east (Barsaive :),
west (Mexico) and south (South Africa). Hey, looks like they were all
elves :)

Bye, Paolo

--
________________________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci
marcucci@***.ts.astro.it
http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci/home.html
"Reboot it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" - Gareth Owen :)
Message no. 17
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Atlantis
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 10:51:52 -0500
On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, James W. Thomas wrote:

> Atlantises Capital, Poseidonis, was made of 'glittering
> orichalcum'. That has to be the largest potential focus in
> existance.

Actually, in the historical frame of reference, "orichalcum" was
a term used to describe copper, or sometimes bronze. Not much magical
about that. In most of the legends I have heard or read, the city was
surrounded by three walls. The outer wall was "orichalcum", the middle
wall was silver, and the inner wall was gold. Gives you some sense of
the relative value.

Marc (how do you keep orichalcum from turning into verdigris? :) )
Message no. 18
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Atlantis...
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 13:06:59 -0700
Okay, first of all, PLEASE, lets not get into a whole Magic style debate
over what I'm about to say. Okay?

There is very little actual archeological evidence that there was ever an
Atlantis. This being said, many old myths are based in fact. Look at
the whole Trojan War epic. Last century, no one believed there really
was a Troy. Until Heinrich Schliemann that is. He found a city on the
plain of Hisarlik in what is now Turkey. Of course, he found the wrong
city (right location, wrong time period). Dorpfeld later came along an
excavated a city that has a number of the characteristics that Homer
gives Troy, it's in the right spot (thank Schliemann for that), and it is
in the right time period. Was there a Trojan Horse? Almost certainly
not. In Troy VII (I think it's 7, but in any case it's the Troy
excavated by Dorpfeld), there is both evidence of war and of a large
earthquake. The Trojan Horse is likely a distorted memory of the
earthquake which allowed the greeks lead by Agamemnon to sack Troy.
Remember that Posideon is not only god of the seas, but also of Horses
and of Earthquakes...

Now that the little history lesson is over, what about Atlantis? This,
depsite the claimed connections with Ireland and with Mexico, is an Agean
and Greek myth. Given the high level of both tectonic and volcanic
activity, it is extremely likely that Atlantis is no more than an ancient
city (perhaps Minoan, perhaps Mycenean, perhaps Egyptian) that was very
prosperous and very powerful. They may even have had something
resembeling science. Then, at some time in the distant past, the city
was destroyed, either by a volcanoe or an earthquake, or perhaps a
combination of both. There is no evidence that it was ever anywhere near
the Azores, or in the Bermuda Triangle (a hoax if I've ever hard one), or
indeed anywhere in the Atlantic at all. All the evidence, such as it is,
points to it being somewhere within the Mediteranean Sea.

Now, if in your SR game you want to have the mythical Atlantis, fine by
me. I'm just a little tired of these myths being presented as facts, and
so this post.

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistling Teacher
Message no. 19
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 18:00:53 -0500
All over the world. I had a past life from Atlantis that ended up in
Scotland. I had a past life from an elven enclave in China. I had a past
life from the Rhineland, who was elven as well.
Tom Craig
Message no. 20
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 18:09:54 -0700
On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, Thomas W. Craig wrote:

> All over the world. I had a past life from Atlantis that ended up in
> Scotland. I had a past life from an elven enclave in China. I had a past
> life from the Rhineland, who was elven as well.
>
This isn't meant as a flame or anything, but does this comment bother
anyone else? To tell you the truth, I really don't know how to take this
post. Hmmmm.

I guess this is just an example of the diversity of the people on this
list. We have people like myself who is firmly grounded int he accepted
reality, Count von Doom who is extremely conservative, the GREAT
Cornholio (he speaks for himself), Shadowdancer who is a Wiccan, and Mr.
Craig who believes in elven past lives.

It does still disturb me, but I am beginning to learn patience in the art
of Top Kal Focus...:-)

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler Acolyte
Message no. 21
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 13:49:17 -0800
On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, James W. Thomas wrote:

> When Atlantis sank, where did the Atlantians GO?

Judging from FASA's background and real history, I think that
Thera/Thira is our Atlantis candidate. The island of Thira was formerly
called Santorini, and near 1500 B.C. exploded in one of the greatest
volcanic cataclysms ever. Santorini exploded with 3 times the energy
release of Krakatoa (which comes out to something like 1400 megatons for
Krakatoa, 4400 megatons for Santorini/Thera) and put about 13 cubic miles
of dust, ash, etc. in the atmosphere (compare with 1.5 cubic miles for
Mt. St. Helens and 4-5 for Krakatoa). The huge energy release generated
300 foot tidal waves in the Meditterranean which rushed 200 miles into
the Nile river delta and left fragments of seafloor embedded in 150 foot
Algerian cliffs. Historically speaking, this time frame corresponds
nicely with the disappearance of the Minoan civilization on nearby Crete.
The island of Thira is still there, although missing some 13
square miles of real estate. Just as an off guess, I imagine not many
(like, none) would've survived such a catastrophe.
FASA does describe Atlantean's as having used magical forces to
stave off natural disaster, and when the magic went away ....

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 22
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 23:53:58 -0500
Actually, Thira/Thera could one of three lost cities/lands: Atlantis,
Lemurias(sp?), and I forget the name of the third. (Although I think it
starts with an "L" as well.) And there could be more lost cities that
history has forgotten, case in point the 6 cities and 1 villiage of Troy.
Tom Craig
Message no. 23
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 22:41:31 -0700
On Fri, 9 Dec 1994, Adam Getchell wrote:

> Algerian cliffs. Historically speaking, this time frame corresponds
> nicely with the disappearance of the Minoan civilization on nearby Crete.
>
First of all, thank you for using real archeological evidence, not some
mystic mumbo-jumbo. But, to be nit-picky, the Minoan civilization did
NOT disappear. They were on the decline by 1500, but there is evidence
that even around 1170BC (the best guess, plus or minus ten years, for
when Troy fell), the Minoan were still around. Very clearly not the
dominant culture they were around 1800 to 1700 BC, but still around.
Hell, some archeologists will claim, until they are blue in the face,
that the Mycenean culture is actually the remnants of the Minoans, that
the Myceneans never created their own culture. I don't personnally
agree, but hey, I don't have a PhD. In other words, the Minoans were
still around, in some form or other, at and around 1500BC

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 24
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 22:52:14 -0700
On Fri, 9 Dec 1994, Thomas W. Craig wrote:
> starts with an "L" as well.) And there could be more lost cities that
> history has forgotten, case in point the 6 cities and 1 villiage of Troy.
>
Uh, WHAT?!?! 6 cities and 1 village of Troy? To quote someone else,
what the hell are you talking about Beavis? There has really only been
one location for the city of Troy, upon the plain of Hisarlik. It used
to be percehd above a bay, but it silted in hundreds of years ago. In
addition, there is, in standard studies, fourteen cities (I'm pretty
sure) of Troy, all built atop each other during different time periods.
Then then are several more dozen sub-layers total, with each primary
layer having at least several of those sub-layers. There were a LOT of
cities of Troy, all built on the same location, all built atop the one
previous.

I am honestly curious as to where you get such fallacious information.
For all those interested, including you, I would suggest finding a copy
of Micheal Wood's "In Search of the Trojan War". It is a very fine, easy
to read book loaded with facts. It was also made into a 6-part PBS show,
which, incidentaly, I have.

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistling Archeologist
Message no. 25
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 07:51:03 -0500
My information is from a book from the Sixties (ack!), part of my problem is
I am not the best writer, so my thoughts sometimes come out as being "wrong".
I was talking about the 7 layers I knew about. And, yes the Minoan culture
was still around when the Mycean culture started. I think I've had TOO much
Greek Myth and Legend. The Archaeological evidence points to Atlantis being
in the Med., but that may not be the case. When things are at the bottom of
the sea, archaeologists have made mistakes.
Tom Craig
Message no. 26
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 18:06:26 -0700
Ergh. Or rather, ARGH!

I had some of my Troy facts confused. I was mixing up Carl Blegen's
Troy, Troy VIIa, with Wilhelm Dorpfeld's Troy, being Troy VI. Troy VIIa
did indeed fall around 1180 BC or so, but the Troy VI fell around 1250
BC. A lot of modern archeologists state that Blegen's Troy VIIa is the
one of legend, because of the two, it shows clear signs of being sacked.
I, however, disagree and believe that it is Dorpfeld's Troy VI, the one
of the magnificent walls. I also made another error, stating that most
people say there were 14 primary layers of Troy. Some people would claim
this, but general opinion is there were 9 major cities, with a total
number of around 50 layers. Been away from my collegiate roots and my
first true love...

So my suggestion would be to trash those 60s books and check out some
more modern books.

Now, to relate this back to SR, why is it that FASA completely ignored
the Med, and the surrounding cultures? They were so wrapped up in the
Indian Question they seem to have ignored the great cultures of Egypt,
Assyria, Bablyon, Mycenea, Knossos, and the Hittites, all of which were
very major players in the shaping of Western civilization. What about
these guys? It's all just rather annoying to me.

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 27
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 18:33:29 -0700
Further archeological follow-up...

The Minoan culture is generally considerd to have died as a dominant
culture around 1400 BC, but they did indeed survive for many years after
that. It was just that they alternated between being a backwater hick
town, to being a vassal state of one or another Agean (or Mycenean)
power. So my previous statement that the Minoans were around at 1200 BC
is still correct, if only barely so.

Second, on the question of Atlantis. Archeologists are not always right,
whether it is above or below the water. I mean, look at Heinrich
Schliemann, he thought that Troy II was the one Homer spoke of, but Troy
II was at least 1000 years too early for that. But as I have stated
before, myths are almost always based upon some facts. In Homers roll
call of ships, there are something like 140 places named. Over 60 of
them have been found, and a number of them have not had human habitation
since the fall of the Mycenean culture before 1150 BC. And Homer "wrote"
the Iliad around 700 BC or so, so he could never have seen some of those
places himself. Troy was where Homer described it. Other places such a
Tiryns, Pilos, and Miletus were all located where legend attributes them
to be. The legend of Atlantis is a myth, or legend, of the Mediterenean
culture, one with no knowledge of the Azores or the Bermuda Triangle. If
there really was an Atlantis, it MUST have been somewhere in the Med, and
most likley in the Aegean Sea, with all the other hundreds of islands.
However, I am not convinced there really was an Atlantis. There is NO
solid archeological proof, no corroborating evidence. Even for the
Trojan War there is some evidence within the archives of the Hittite
Empires capital at Boghaz (pronounced Bow-as).

But in any case, this is beginning to get slighlty off topic, so...unless
someone has any ideas about my previous question on what the Awakend
Near-East would be like, maybe this thread should die here.

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 28
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 23:09:19 -0500
One culture, I think would return in the Middle-East, is the Babylonians.
But, a major problem with that is the fact that Islam is still considered,
in 2050, the dominate religion of the region. The Babylonian religion is
Zoro-asturian(sp?), if I remember correctly.

About the Med. and the Western Hemisphere, Atlantis is also mentioned in
Persian myth; and artifacts from ancient Egypt have been found in various
places in the Western Hemisphere. Some of those artifacts were dated around
1500 BC, if my memory serves me correctly on this particular issue.
Tom Craig
Message no. 29
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 21:17:19 -0700
I personally would love it if elements of Bronze Age Greece (the
Myceneans) came back. Great bunch of guys...

As far as Egyptian artifacts being scattered around as early as 1500 BC,
you need to remember that there was a lot of trading going on, from about
1800 BC or so on between the nations of the Med. There are Mycenean
artifacts that were found in Egypt, and a number of Egyptian artifacts
found in mainland Greece. So the mere fact that there were Egpytian
items found all over means actually very little. Now, if there were
Egyptian artifacts found in Central America, THAT would be news.

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 30
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 23:24:14 -0500
Notice I did state Western Hemisphere. The Med. is in the Eastern
Hemisphere. Some were found in Central America, some in Newfoundland, and
some in South America.
Tom Craig
Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@***.NL>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 12:08:30 +0100
>Now, to relate this back to SR, why is it that FASA completely ignored
>the Med, and the surrounding cultures? They were so wrapped up in the
>Indian Question they seem to have ignored the great cultures of Egypt,
>Assyria, Bablyon, Mycenea, Knossos, and the Hittites, all of which were
>very major players in the shaping of Western civilization. What about
>these guys? It's all just rather annoying to me.

Well, you have to admit that their most important market is in the USA.
Therefore, they concentrate on the US when bringing out sourcebooks,
background material, and other game supports. The whole of North America has
been covered by sourcebooks now, I think, while for the rest of the world we
only have the UK, Ireland, Germany, and Hawaii, plus some little bits in
other sourcebooks and adventures.
Quite honestly, I doubt that those ancient cultures you mentioned would have
a great effect on the sixth world. As far as I know, just about nobody
seriously still hangs on to those cultures even now: all have gone under,
and the people in the regions they once occupied are now almost all islamic
(most) or christian (a few). Actually...now that I'm thinking this over, I
recall watching a documentary on tv a few months ago about (I think)
Egyptian christians, who basically believe in Jesus and everything else most
other christians believe in, but practice rituals based much more in an
older culture/religion than in christianity. I think the same documentary
talked about people in Central America doing much the same thing: being
catholics but using mayan rituals.
A lot of rituals from ancient cultures are still alive today, even though
the cultures themselves aren't around anymore. Take things like the
rapidly-approaching christmas, actually the germanic mid-winter feast (or
whatever), which the catholic church couldn't erase from peoples' minds, so
they said "let's use that day to celebrate Jesus' birth." Maybe more
important things would become powerful if practiced in a magically-active
world...

Gurth@***.nl
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Message no. 32
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 15:21:02 -0700
I find it rather Ironic that the nigh before this debate/discussion start my
friend Eric was telling us a few things about ancient cultures.

like Jerico was over 9750 years old

He also mentioned the 7 cities of Troy - which is now from what erik
(whistler) say up to 9

The most startling one that he mentioned was that there is fairly new proof that
the Spinx is over 12,000 years old. The way he explained it was that they got
this information both through carbon dating and through weathering patterns.
At one time early in its existance the sphinx was often drenched in torential
rains - that would mean that it would have to over 10,000 years old
because that is the point in time when the Egyptian area was still very lush and
hit by torential rains.

Please note that I may be miss quoting on some of the dates - don't take this
for fact - it is third hand information - but decently reliable.

>Now, to relate this back to SR, why is it that FASA completely ignored
>the Med, and the surrounding cultures? They were so wrapped up in the
>Indian Question they seem to have ignored the great cultures of Egypt,
>Assyria, Bablyon, Mycenea, Knossos, and the Hittites, all of which were
>very major players in the shaping of Western civilization. What about
>these guys? It's all just rather annoying to me.

I think the reason was is the fact that they based SR around seattle. Which
then means that they would have to describe the indian lands which had so much
effect on the seattle area, also if the wanted to do the rest of the UCAS and
old US (like CAS) they would have to do more on the indian lands.

Thus came about NAGNA and NAN I+II

Then - since they had done these - some British folk decided to do England

Then FASA did Tir Tairngire because it was fairly important and close to
seattle. To tie in with this and give a differing view point - the brits came
out with Tir Nan Og.


NAN -- I find that the NAN books can be too generalized - after talking with my
roomate this morning I came to find out that the Navajo tribe does not follow
and shamanic traditions. They do not have tribal shamans, nor do they follow
the concepts of totems. Rather they are more hermatic in that they have
Medicine Men. I will have to find out how much of this carries over to the
Apache and the Zuni - its a useful thing to know - especially when about 10%
of your campus is Native American.

Nightfox

BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Daniel Waisley + SCA - March of Ered Sul - Flagstaff AZ
DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU + Nau fencing club.
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Message no. 33
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 15:29:05 -0700
No, the Med is generally considered to be within the Western Hemisphere.
It's all a part of Europe and such, which is also considered to be
within the Western Hemisphere. ANd this business of Egyptian artifacts
found in the Americas, was this also from one of those 60s books? I've
heard of the voyage of the Ra and all that, but I have heard no
conclusive evidence that what you say really is true. So, me being a
cynic, cant and wont believe it.

As far as Gurths comments, yes, this is America and FASA had to pander to
us. I was never happy with teh whole Indian thing, being a proud,
modern, conservative white male with no regrets or true remorse about the
past. What is done is done. Butback to teh Med cultures. Thsoe
cultures were instrumental in the formation of the Western world. The
Greeks still live side by side with ruins going back to 1500 BC. There
are small towns in Greece that still have not forgotton that during the
Bronze Age their town was important, and they still know where the ruins
are. Facts taht scientists and historians have forgotton or never knew.
The Egyptians are probably very similar in this aspect. The peoples of
the Med are very in tune with their history, something we as Americans
have never been very good at. Now, these are generalisations, but I
think they work well enough. And given the modern politics of the
region, why shouldn't Greece revert to a loose collection of
city-states? Or Egypt attempt to return to its former Imperial glory?
Seems rather plausible to me.

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 34
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 15:51:06 -0700
>As far as Gurths comments, yes, this is America and FASA had to pander to
>us. I was never happy with teh whole Indian thing, being a proud,
>modern, conservative white male with no regrets or true remorse about the
>past. What is done is done. Butback to teh Med cultures. Thsoe

Actually - I find the way FASA handled the native american part of the history
rather congruent to the way they view it. Occording to my roomate many Native
native american would not mind rising up and taking back their land. At this
time though they realise that it is not possible, for it would cost to many
lives on both sides and they do not have the military power to do so.

Rather, the best way at the moment is to garner more power in the present in the
form of politics and technology, while still trying to keep their culture.

It is a very possible attempt, withing the next 10 years america will have NO
majority population. All groups will be minorities (less than 50%), and is a
concensus is formed among several of these groups many changes could be made.
This is not likely at the moment, African american may be powerful, but they
are do not have any concensus amongst themselves. He does say that many times
the Native American tribes will group together to form a larger force and not
splinter into smaller groups, but he will admit that they are as of yet to small
to accomplish what they want.

In ShadowRun - I can see the coming of magic being like the escape of the
isrealites from the Egyptians. It would give them the power they needed but
only if they worked together. So in all, taking the premiss of magic returning
to the world - I can see the Native American revolt as not only possible but
also very probable, this isn't even counting in the remifications of the
concentration camps where people from different tribes would have brought
together and started to support each other even more.

And yes, I am one of those who sees the way that the American Government treated
the Native Americans as reprehensible, and I am one who would like to rectify
the situation. But I also realize that trying to reverse everything is not a
very feasible solution and would lack any type of support.

Nightfox

BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Daniel Waisley + SCA - March of Ered Sul - Flagstaff AZ
DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU + Nau fencing club.
"Nightfox" + Brotherhood of the Cryptic Demesne -household
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Message no. 35
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 17:50:31 -0500
As for the Egyptian artifacts in the Americas, I read that in a National
Geographic (from somewhere between the mid-80's and 1994). I forget when,
but I do remember reading it.
Tom Craig
Message no. 36
From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 22:28:40 EST
The Whistler writes:

> Now, to relate this back to SR, why is it that FASA completely
ignored
> the Med, and the surrounding cultures? They were so wrapped up
in the
> Indian Question they seem to have ignored the great cultures of
Egypt,
> Assyria, Bablyon, Mycenea, Knossos, and the Hittites, all of which
were
> very major players in the shaping of Western civilization. What
about
> these guys? It's all just rather annoying to me.

This is very annoying, but maybe they do not have the time.
Remember, SR is a reletivly new game system. FASA has tons of
politics to work out. Many new sourcebooks are in the works all of the
time. But with only 29 on staff, and about 10 freelance, books are
hard to get printed quickly. Research, writing, editing, rewriting, takes
a lot of time, especially when they do this for at least 3 huge game
systems. I would love to help them, but unfortunatly I cannot because
of college. If you have anything to submit, send a letter to Sam.


Many people fear Death, saying it is the bitter end.
I say Death is just lonely, crying out for a friend.

-Shadowdancer- <briddle@*****.vinu.edu>
Message no. 37
From: The GREAT Cornholio <mruane@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 00:13:55 -0700
On Sun, 11 Dec 1994, Shadowdancer wrote:

> The Whistler writes:
>
> > Now, to relate this back to SR, why is it that FASA completely
> ignored
> > the Med, and the surrounding cultures? They were so wrapped up
> in the
> > Indian Question they seem to have ignored the great cultures of
> Egypt,
> > Assyria, Bablyon, Mycenea, Knossos, and the Hittites, all of which
> were
> > very major players in the shaping of Western civilization. What
> about
> > these guys? It's all just rather annoying to me.
>
> This is very annoying, but maybe they do not have the time.
> Remember, SR is a reletivly new game system. FASA has tons of
> politics to work out. Many new sourcebooks are in the works all of the
> time. But with only 29 on staff, and about 10 freelance, books are
> hard to get printed quickly. Research, writing, editing, rewriting, takes
> a lot of time, especially when they do this for at least 3 huge game
> systems. I would love to help them, but unfortunatly I cannot because
> of college. If you have anything to submit, send a letter to Sam.
>
Hey, I remember something about FASA saying they like people in the area
writing the sourcebooks. Maybe Greeks don't like Shadowrun. Maybe
shadowrun hasn't reached former eastern block countries.

Mike, TGC
Message no. 38
From: Gurth <gurth@***.NL>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 09:49:20 +0100
>It would give them the power they needed but only if they worked together.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That's what makes such a thing work, isn't it? If you have lots of people
behind you who feel the same way, you can get things done. But if your own
backing is heavily divided, you can't do jack shit.

Gurth@***.nl | GEEK CODE v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g P?(3) !au !a>?
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Message no. 39
From: Martin <BDI05626@***.RHIJ.NL>
Subject: Re: atlantis
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 10:33:05 +0100
I think it was Thomas who wrote stuff about finding Greek and other
stuff in the Western Hemisphere. I remember a program on Discovery
Channel from a few weeks ago which was about this subject
(indirectly). They launched a theory that these artifacts were traded
by the Trans-polar tribes, who supposed to be very active traders and
less isolated as everyone always thought.

Greetings,

Fael Inis <aka Martin Steffens>
Message no. 40
From: "James W. Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Atlantis
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 09:48:18 +0000
Atlantis is hiding in my Fridge until the mana level is high
enough for me to open the 'door'

CHOPPER
Ps.
What are the differences for eye-style cybereyes over
Sammie-in-templates silver sealed dome cybereyes?
Message no. 41
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.EC-LYON.FR>
Subject: Re: Atlantis
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 12:32:58 MET
>Cugel:
>Interesting idea, but it would more account for the mythical lands of
>Keltic mythology like Tir na n'Og, Avalon, Lyonesse, etc. The
>downfall of Atlantis was somewhat more "mundane" :)

Tir na Nog??? I think it's much more likely to be in France (we could debate
about Avalon but not about Lyonesse!).
Don't forget Broceliande and "le Val sans retour" are in France as is the prison
of Merlin (just think about Merlin...We'll have to consider some elves).

-Cobra. (the frenchy)
Message no. 42
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Atlantis
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 03:35:22 +0930
Gallas William wrote:
>
> >Cugel:
> >Interesting idea, but it would more account for the mythical lands of
> >Keltic mythology like Tir na n'Og, Avalon, Lyonesse, etc. The
> >downfall of Atlantis was somewhat more "mundane" :)
>
> Tir na Nog??? I think it's much more likely to be in France (we could debate
> about Avalon but not about Lyonesse!).
> Don't forget Broceliande and "le Val sans retour" are in France as is the
prison
> of Merlin (just think about Merlin...We'll have to consider some elves).

Tir na n'Og is from Irish ythology, though almost all the Celts have
similar myths. In particular, Tir na n'Og is meant to be NORTH of Ireland,
so I don't think it's in France. :)


--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 43
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.EC-LYON.FR>
Subject: Re: Atlantis
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 16:35:15 MET
>>Cobra:
>>Tir na Nog??? I think it's much more likely to be in France (we could debate
>>about Avalon but not about Lyonesse!).
>>Don't forget Broceliande and "le Val sans retour" are in France as is
the
>>prison of Merlin (just think about Merlin...We'll have to consider
>>some elves).

>Robert Watkins:
>Tir na n'Og is from Irish ythology, though almost all the Celts have
>similar myths. In particular, Tir na n'Og is meant to be NORTH of Ireland,
>so I don't think it's in France. :)

I didn't mean Tir na n'Og was in France, I was writing about Avalon and
Lyonesse. And again, These two are located in France in the real mythology
(except the opposition for the location of Avalon. In France, this one could
be Ys.)Don't tell me Lyonesse is in Ireland!!!
P.S. I think Broceliande is some extension of Tir na n'Og in France 'cause the
mythologies are almost the same ones.


-Cobra.
Message no. 44
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:37:06 GMT
Stupid question; have they actually discovered Atlantis or is that what the
Atlantian Foundation is there for?

That is all

Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

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Message no. 45
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:05:00 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Smith <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Saturday, June 10, 2000 9:38 PM
Subject: Atlantis


>Stupid question; have they actually discovered Atlantis or is that what the
>Atlantian Foundation is there for?
>
>That is all
>
>Phil


Unless you count those sunken cities off Egypt, no. I think they are
actually looking for the sunken island of Thera (Stab music, cross cut/fade
to the Earthdawn logo).
If they have found it, they aren't talking, anyway.
Message no. 46
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 09:55:16 +0300
Simon and Fiona wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Smith <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
> To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
> Date: Saturday, June 10, 2000 9:38 PM
> Subject: Atlantis
>
> >Stupid question; have they actually discovered Atlantis or is that what the
> >Atlantian Foundation is there for?
> >
> >That is all
> >
> >Phil
>
> Unless you count those sunken cities off Egypt, no. I think they are
> actually looking for the sunken island of Thera (Stab music, cross cut/fade
> to the Earthdawn logo).
> If they have found it, they aren't talking, anyway.

The sunken island of Thera has been rediscovered some 20.000 years ago
by the first inhabitants of Greece! :)
It still remains very much discovered and teeming with tourists every
summer!
It is also known as Santorini (paraphrase of Santa Irene, named by the
Venetian conquerors in the middle ages). (btw Thera in ancient Greek
means Gate, doorway)
The volcano has erupted ca 1500 BC and the tidal wave submerged the
whole northern part of the (fairly big) island of Crete to the south and
spelled the end of the Minoan civilisation (said by some to be the
original Atlantean civilisation). Any way, more than half of the island
sunk and the volcanic ash fallout made all of Crete unsuitable for
planting, therefore causing a mass exodus and diaspora of the Minoan
Cretans, leaving only ruins of their civilisation.

Jacques Yves Cousteau spend two years looking for Atlantis in the sea
between Thera and Crete but came out with nothing.



And to answer your question, Phil, :No, they have not found Atlantis
yet, but the Antlantean Foundation's purpose is just that! They all
would give a right arm to find Atlantis.

and since the ED story about therans is pretty much the same with the
rumored Atlanteans, I guess that some pretty nifty secrets (no few of
them related to horrors-tzimizine demons) would be found if they were to
find a place where to dig.


Btw has any one here been interested in finding Atlantis or has been
involved in a shadowrun that made use of the mythos? I'd love to hear
all about it!


the wiz
Message no. 47
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:50:06 -0700 (PDT)
<BigSNIP(TM)>
> and since the ED story about therans is pretty much
the same with the rumored Atlanteans, I guess that
some pretty nifty secrets (no few of them related to
horrors-tzimizine demons) would be found if they were
to find a place where to dig.
> the wiz

Actually, Wiz, it's "tzitzimine".

Now, I'm not just being pedantic here (although I DO
enjoy it ;) ). We've got some native Mexicans/South
Americans/Central Americans on the list, right? Well,
I've always wondered how one would pronounce
"tzitzimine".

And I've just started wondering what, exactly,
"tzitzimine" translates to in English.

Can anyone fill me in?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 48
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 12:04:26 +0200
According to Simon and Fiona, at 14:05 on 11 Jun 00, the word on the
street was...

> Unless you count those sunken cities off Egypt, no. I think they are
> actually looking for the sunken island of Thera (Stab music, cross cut/fade
> to the Earthdawn logo).
> If they have found it, they aren't talking, anyway.

If you have (access to) the SR adventure A Killing Glare, read the news
items in the back.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 49
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 12:36:16 GMT
>From: Manolis Skoulikas <great_worm@*****.com>
>Btw has any one here been interested in finding Atlantis or has been
>involved in a shadowrun that made use of the mythos? I'd love to hear
>all about it!

Is it just me or did anyone else read the first bit of that first sentence
and think Mr Wiz was asking if anyone on this list has actively sought out
Atlantis in the real world?

Yeah actually, me Gurth, Bull, Simon and Doc's toe went on an expedition in
scuba gear to find Atlantis having found an ancient map showing it's
loaction. Unfortunatly there was a mutiny, shark attacks and we all only
just escaped with our lives :)>

Just ignore me; I didn't get much sleep last night.

Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

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Message no. 50
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 08:13:56 -0700 (PDT)
<Snipples(TM)>
> Yeah actually, me Gurth, Bull, Simon and Doc's toe
went on an expedition in scuba gear to find Atlantis
having found an ancient map showing it's loaction.
Unfortunatly there was a mutiny, shark attacks and we
all only just escaped with our lives :)>
> Phil

How many times do I have to tell you, Phil?

You don't mess with The Toe...

But no, you never listen, do you?

Inviting Don Toe along on a treasure hunt...

*Doc' walks away, shaking his head disbelievingly...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 51
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:20:37 GMT
>From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
>How many times do I have to tell you, Phil?
>
>You don't mess with The Toe...

I didn't; he was financing us, he had his own ajenda.

And if you think the Atlantis expedition was difficult you should see what
DOn Toe put me, Al and Patric (along with his band of mercs) through to
invsetigate rumors of an ancient Egyptian armor pricing calculation system;
you must be 18.

And don't even ask what we found out for him as to who is really in charge
of Microsoft...

Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

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Message no. 52
From: Aris "Deathspirit" Stremmenos aris@***************.de
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 02:06:10 +0300
> The sunken island of Thera has been rediscovered some 20.000 years ago
> by the first inhabitants of Greece! :)
> It still remains very much discovered and teeming with tourists every
> summer!
> It is also known as Santorini (paraphrase of Santa Irene, named by the
> Venetian conquerors in the middle ages). (btw Thera in ancient Greek
> means Gate, doorway)

Thera the island is written with a h (eta) and not with a u (upsilon) like
gate. But to be honest I don't know if the name of the island is derived
from the word gate (thyra).

> The volcano has erupted ca 1500 BC and the tidal wave submerged the
> whole northern part of the (fairly big) island of Crete to the south and
> spelled the end of the Minoan civilisation (said by some to be the
> original Atlantean civilisation).

Highly unlikely...Atlantis wasn't a big island, according to legend. Also
the minoan civilization didn't have the same traits (technology etc.) as the
Atlantean civilization.

> Any way, more than half of the island
> sunk and the volcanic ash fallout made all of Crete unsuitable for
> planting, therefore causing a mass exodus and diaspora of the Minoan
> Cretans, leaving only ruins of their civilisation.
>
> Jacques Yves Cousteau spend two years looking for Atlantis in the sea
> between Thera and Crete but came out with nothing.
>
>
>
> And to answer your question, Phil, :No, they have not found Atlantis
> yet, but the Antlantean Foundation's purpose is just that! They all
> would give a right arm to find Atlantis.
>
> and since the ED story about therans is pretty much the same with the
> rumored Atlanteans, I guess that some pretty nifty secrets (no few of
> them related to horrors-tzimizine demons) would be found if they were to
> find a place where to dig.
>
>
> Btw has any one here been interested in finding Atlantis or has been
> involved in a shadowrun that made use of the mythos? I'd love to hear
> all about it!
>
>

Hmmmmmm, after finishing out all the Yakuza bastards, why don't you make a
campaign in Atlantis, for our party? It would be quite interesting... :)



> the wiz
>

Deathspirit
Message no. 53
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:24:03 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Smith <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 2:21 AM
Subject: Re: Atlantis


>>From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
>>How many times do I have to tell you, Phil?
>>
>>You don't mess with The Toe...
>
>I didn't; he was financing us, he had his own ajenda.
>
See, there was a misunderstanding, it was a mutoeny. Never did work out why
Don Toe mutoenied when it was his ship, or why I was expected to keep a
cutlass between my teeth for the whole thing when everyone else got
automatic weapons, but I was payed and blackmailed -ahem- blacknailed well
enough not to ask questions. I do find it telling that on an expedition to
the Mediterranean we spent most of the time going around Barbados, though.
Message no. 54
From: Achille Autran aautran@*************.fr
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 01:41:10 +0200
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>

> According to Simon and Fiona, at 14:05 on 11 Jun 00, the word on the
> street was...
>
> > Unless you count those sunken cities off Egypt, no. I think they are
> > actually looking for the sunken island of Thera (Stab music, cross cut/fade
> > to the Earthdawn logo).
> > If they have found it, they aren't talking, anyway.
>
> If you have (access to) the SR adventure A Killing Glare, read the news
> items in the back.

Or in a more widespread item, the SR3 main book, check the "magical
events" insert in the and history section. I'm pretty sure they say
there that the Atlantean Foundation (re)discovered Thera around 2045.
Don't have the book to check though...
Message no. 55
From: Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 22:20:57 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Achille Autran <aautran@*************.fr>
> Or in a more widespread item, the SR3 main book, check the "magical
> events" insert in the and history section. I'm pretty sure they say
> there that the Atlantean Foundation (re)discovered Thera around 2045.
> Don't have the book to check though...

I do -- I happen to be working on next weekend's session, so it's right here
next to my laptop.

"2054, Part 1: In Boston, a team of scholars and archaeologists report a
major archaeological find 130 miles off the coast of Crete. The expedition,
funded by the Atlantean Foundation, discovers a treasure trove of artifacts
in an area known to history as the location of the island of Thera, which
may be the site of lost Atlantis. (Or may just be a rock in the ocean.)
Experts dismiss allegations that the artifacts are magical in nature." (SR3,
pg. 26)

I looked at "A Killing Glare" earlier today as well, and the news story in
the back of that adventure is about the same event.

-- Josh
Message no. 56
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@*******.net.mx
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 02:43:57 -0500
> Actually, Wiz, it's "tzitzimine".
>
> Now, I'm not just being pedantic here (although I DO
> enjoy it ;) ).

NOOO where you get this idea from?

We've got some native Mexicans/South
> Americans/Central Americans on the list, right?

yes ohh ohh problems comming.

Well,
> I've always wondered how one would pronounce
> "tzitzimine".

god I must found a very good dictionary is something like

TXe TXe mI(like MIstery) ne(like NEcklace)

But let me check im not sure of the tzi part.

> And I've just started wondering what, exactly,
> "tzitzimine" translates to in English.

there is not translation as far as I know

TZITZIMITL-"Demonic Night Creatures"

Singular as tzitzimine. Supernatural beings collectively as four they lived
in the night sky and were a threat to men during an eclipse(*36) and most
nights in general. Myth has a legend that they were once stars and were cast
out be become lords in the dark underworld. It was thought that the
tzitzimitl were the creatures who would initiate the final destruction of
the Mexica world and universe. Depicted in codex Magliabechiano, recto 76,
as a skeleton with a rattlesnake for a penis and earrings of a human hand
and necklace of human hearts and hands. The hair is unkempt and are
generally considered female.


> Can anyone fill me in?

did this help?

>
> ====> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka
Doc' Vader)
>
> S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.
>
> .sig Sauer
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
> http://photos.yahoo.com
>
>
Message no. 57
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:53:51 +0200
According to Achille Autran, at 1:41 on 12 Jun 00, the word on the street
was...

> > If you have (access to) the SR adventure A Killing Glare, read the news
> > items in the back.
>
> Or in a more widespread item, the SR3 main book, check the "magical
> events" insert in the and history section. I'm pretty sure they say
> there that the Atlantean Foundation (re)discovered Thera around 2045.
> Don't have the book to check though...

It says 2054 (typo of yours?), and looks like it refers to the same thing
as the news item in A Killing Glare, since the news items in that book are
from 10 June 2054. Anyway, you're right in that SR3 may be a bit more
accessible for most than AKG is.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 58
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 07:41:05 -0700 (PDT)
> >>How many times do I have to tell you, Phil?
> >>
> >>You don't mess with The Toe...
> >
> >I didn't; he was financing us, he had his own
> ajenda.
> >
> See, there was a misunderstanding, it was a mutoeny.
> Never did work out why
> Don Toe mutoenied when it was his ship, or why I was
> expected to keep a
> cutlass between my teeth for the whole thing when
> everyone else got
> automatic weapons, but I was payed and blackmailed
> -ahem- blacknailed well
> enough not to ask questions. I do find it telling
> that on an expedition to
> the Mediterranean we spent most of the time going
> around Barbados, though.
>
That's ok guys I already found Atlantis...Just me and
Indiana Jones...
(Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis by LucasArts)

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

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Message no. 59
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:21:40 GMT
>From: Achille Autran <aautran@*************.fr>
>Or in a more widespread item, the SR3 main book, check the "magical
>events" insert in the and history section. I'm pretty sure they say
>there that the Atlantean Foundation (re)discovered Thera around 2045.
>Don't have the book to check though...

He's right y'know; 2054, The Atlantian Foundation found Thera + treasures.
Does that qualify as Atlantis? My Geography is deeply bad.

ED players; what happened to Thera, I have the main book which just says
that no one knows what has happened. If no one knows how's this for an
adventure hook; as part of the ritual that protected Thera from the Scourge
a pocket of mana was created, leaving Thera as magical as when it was
sealed. As mana levels fell and the last of the Therans were killed off a
horror found its way into the then deserted Thera. It stayed there, trapped
in the pocket, until Thera was rediscovered, it observed the divers taking
the treasure and either corrupted them or left them, wishing to discover
more about the state of the world. In an underwater installation near Thera
wierdness begins, the corp sends in a team of runners to find out what's
going on. Think Event Horison meets the Abyss :)>

Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

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Message no. 60
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:05:04 GMT
>From: Raveness Ravensbane <ravenessravensbane@*****.com>
> > See, there was a misunderstanding, it was a mutoeny.
> > Never did work out why
> > Don Toe mutoenied when it was his ship, or why I was
> > expected to keep a
> > cutlass between my teeth for the whole thing when
> > everyone else got
> > automatic weapons, but I was payed and blackmailed
> > -ahem- blacknailed well
> > enough not to ask questions. I do find it telling
> > that on an expedition to
> > the Mediterranean we spent most of the time going
> > around Barbados, though.
> >
>That's ok guys I already found Atlantis...Just me and
>Indiana Jones...
>(Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis by LucasArts)

You mean we had to face killer sharks, interpol, the FBI, the major finger
familys of New York and all those crazy dolphins who had it in for Simon for
nothing?!

Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

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Message no. 61
From: JRCrandall@***.com JRCrandall@***.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:29:50 EDT
On Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:21:40 GMT "Phil Smith" <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>

wrote:

> ED players; what happened to Thera, I have the main book which just says
> that no one knows what has happened. If no one knows how's this for an
> adventure hook; as part of the ritual that protected Thera from the Scourge
> a pocket of mana was created, leaving Thera as magical as when it was
> sealed. As mana levels fell and the last of the Therans were killed off a
> horror found its way into the then deserted Thera. It stayed there,
trapped
> in the pocket, until Thera was rediscovered, it observed the divers taking
> the treasure and either corrupted them or left them, wishing to discover
> more about the state of the world. In an underwater installation near
Thera
> wierdness begins, the corp sends in a team of runners to find out what's
> going on. Think Event Horison meets the Abyss :)>
>
> Phil

Hunh?? Everyone knows what happened, Thera WAS unsealed after the Scourge.
In fact, the attempt by the Therans to retake their former territory in
Barsaive is one of the principal plot elements in many (if not most) ED
campaigns. As for the final fate of Thera (at the end of the Fourth World),
all we have to go on is speculation and hints. I remember vaguely from the
ED mailing list a discussion of the magical columns of Thera that supposedly
maintained the power of the island empire (or something like that). IIRC,
there was a hint dropped (by Lou Prosperi???) that the magic of the columns
actually held the island together instead of the empire. If that was the
case, when the magic level finally dropped, the columns would have failed and
the island would have then collapsed or erupted.

Just MHO,
- Jim ;-)
Message no. 62
From: Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:42:36 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Smith <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
> He's right y'know; 2054, The Atlantian Foundation found Thera + treasures.
> Does that qualify as Atlantis? My Geography is deeply bad.

According to the piece in the book, they don't know if it really is Atlantis
or not. IIRC, most current theories place Atlantis in the Aegean Sea
somewhere (Santorini is a popular choice, but there are dozens of small
islands that were affected by the high amount of volcanic activity in the
area at the time).

> ED players; what happened to Thera, I have the main book which just says
> that no one knows what has happened.

As one of the resident Earthdawn gurus, here's the general story. Most of
this is conjecture, based off of published info for ED and comments made by
Lou Prosperi on the ED mailing list.

On the island of Thera, there are three orichalcum pillars. All evidence
indicates that these pillars are somehow responsible for the stability of
the magic level in the Earthdawn setting (just how the Therans accomplished
this is a mystery, though). Bascially Lou has indicated that the magical
stability is artificial.

Looking at the magic cycle as a rubber band, the orichalcum pillars have
stretched it farther than it was intended to go. As we all know, when an
elastic band is stretched too far, it breaks. The most popular theory is
that at some point in the future, the intended decline in the magic cycle
will kick in, and the backlash will destroy the island of Thera.


> If no one knows how's this for an
> adventure hook; as part of the ritual that protected Thera from the
Scourge
> a pocket of mana was created, leaving Thera as magical as when it was
> sealed.

Thera unsealed itself and returned to Barsaive in 1449 TH. There was a city
that hid itself away like you describe, and had hundreds of horrors trapped
within it -- Parlainth, the former Theran provincial capital. It was
returned to the world in the early 1400s TH (I forget the exact year
offhand), and is sort of the Earthdawn equivalent of "Undermountain" from
that other high-fantasy RPG.

Taken as a purely SR storyline, it is actually rather intriguing. It just
doesn't really agree with the Earthdawn canon.

-- Josh
Message no. 63
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:37:45 -0500
On Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:21:40 GMT "Phil Smith"
<phil_urbanhell@*******.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> If no one knows how's this for an
> adventure hook; as part of the ritual that protected Thera from the
> Scourge a pocket of mana was created, leaving Thera as magical as
> when it was sealed. As mana levels fell and the last of the Therans
> were killed off a horror found its way into the then deserted Thera.
> It stayed there, trapped in the pocket, until Thera was rediscovered,
> it observed the divers taking the treasure and either corrupted them
> or left them, wishing to discover more about the state of the world.
> In an underwater installation near Thera wierdness begins, the corp
> sends in a team of runners to find out what's going on. Think Event
> Horison meets the Abyss :)>

You want some evil genius intellect, and perhaps some minions,
tormenting, for unknown reasons, those who enter the large habitat? FASA
will never put out a book on that for SR ... ;)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 64
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:31:17 -0700 (PDT)
> I didn't; he was financing us, he had his own
ajenda.
>
> And if you think the Atlantis expedition was
difficult you should see what DOn Toe put me, Al and
Patric (along with his band of mercs) through to
invsetigate rumors of an ancient Egyptian armor
pricing calculation system; you must be 18.

I am...tell me. :)

> And don't even ask what we found out for him as to
who is really in charge of Microsoft...
> Phil

What??

He didn't tell me! :(

And I thought I was Don Toe's head flunky and chief
toe-dy...

*Doc' blubbers pitifully...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 65
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:35:06 -0700 (PDT)
> See, there was a misunderstanding, it was a mutoeny.
Never did work out why Don Toe mutoenied when it was
his ship, or why I was expected to keep a cutlass
between my teeth for the whole thing when everyone
else got automatic weapons, but I was payed and
blackmailed -ahem- blacknailed well enough not to ask
questions. I do find it telling that on an expedition
to the Mediterranean we spent most of the time going
around Barbados, though.

What? What was that, Don Toe?

*Doc' bends over as The Toe whispers in his ear, then
straightens, a puzzled expression on his face...*

Don Toe told me to say something about..."thong bikinis"...

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 66
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:21:38 -0700 (PDT)
> > Actually, Wiz, it's "tzitzimine".
> >
> > Now, I'm not just being pedantic here (although I
DO enjoy it ;) ).
>
> NOOO where you get this idea from?

Hey, I'm the one who parades around in the Pedantic
Wo(Man) costume...;)

> Well, I've always wondered how one would pronounce
"tzitzimine".
>
> god I must found a very good dictionary is something
like
>
> TXe TXe mI(like MIstery) ne(like NEcklace)

That's mystery, but anyway...:)

Unfortunately, that's still confusing. "Txe" is not
really a common sound in English.

Is it "tZEE" (soft t), "Tzee" (hard t), "zee" (silent
t), or something else?

> But let me check im not sure of the tzi part.

Please do. :)

> > And I've just started wondering what, exactly,
"tzitzimine" translates to in English.
>
> there is not translation as far as I know
>
> TZITZIMITL-"Demonic Night Creatures"
>
> Singular as tzitzimine. Supernatural beings
collectively as four they lived in the night sky and
were a threat to men during an eclipse(*36) and most
nights in general. Myth has a legend that they were
once stars and were cast out be become lords in the
dark underworld. It was thought that the tzitzimitl
were the creatures who would initiate the final
destruction of the Mexica world and universe. Depicted
in codex Magliabechiano, recto 76, as a skeleton with
a rattlesnake for a penis and earrings of a human hand
and necklace of human hearts and hands. The hair is
unkempt and are generally considered female.

Hang on - female skeletons with dicks? :)

Do you mean the Tzitzimitl are considered female, or
something else?

> > Can anyone fill me in?
>
> did this help?

Still leaves some questions, but yeah, it helped.

Btw, as Al pointed out to me, that skeleton image is a
shocker. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 67
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:48:54 -0700 (PDT)
> >That's ok guys I already found Atlantis...Just me
and Indiana Jones... (Indiana Jones and the Fate of
Atlantis by LucasArts)
>
> You mean we had to face killer sharks, interpol, the
FBI, the major finger familys of New York and all
those crazy dolphins who had it in for Simon for
nothing?!
> Phil

*Doc' listens closely to The Toe again...*

Um, Phil, Don Toe said something about "thong bikinis"
again...

Btw, you should probably get your affairs in order. I
hear the Thumbori Family is looking to turn you into
"finger food"...

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 68
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 01:40:26 -0500
On Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Rand
Ratinac?<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> Btw, as Al pointed out to me, that skeleton image is a
> shocker. :)

Actually, I found that funny ... what I thought was scary was the
description of a skeleton with a rattlesnake for a penis with a few lines
down you saying "can someone fill me in?" ... :P~

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 69
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:40:24 -0700 (PDT)
> > Btw, as Al pointed out to me, that skeleton image
is a shocker. :)
>
> Actually, I found that funny ... what I thought was
scary was the description of a skeleton with a
rattlesnake for a penis with a few lines down you
saying "can someone fill me in?" ... :P~
> D. Ghost

*lol*

Hmmm...

Okay, I'm shutting up now.

(Lordy, Doc' displaying some common sense? Who woulda
thunk it?)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 70
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 02:53:13 -0500
From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>
Subject: RE: Atlantis


> > TXe TXe mI(like MIstery) ne(like NEcklace)
>
> That's mystery, but anyway...:)

(*K thwaps Doc' with a bloody corpse from the lair of Don Carnage!!! *)

> Unfortunately, that's still confusing. "Txe" is not
> really a common sound in English.
>
> Is it "tZEE" (soft t), "Tzee" (hard t), "zee" (silent
> t), or something else?

"Tzeh" actually would come a lot closer to an englishman's translation
"tzi" (short 'i')
"meh" (sort of like "may", the month of the calendar)
"nee" (long 'e').

> > But let me check im not sure of the tzi part.
> Please do. :)

Gotcha in 4 parts...

> > > And I've just started wondering what, exactly,
> "tzitzimine" translates to in English.
> >
> > there is not translation as far as I know

And you would be correct. It does not possess a singularly worded
translation.

> > TZITZIMITL-"Demonic Night Creatures"
> >
> > Singular as tzitzimine. Supernatural beings
> collectively as four they lived in the night sky and
> were a threat to men during an eclipse(*36) and most
> nights in general. Myth has a legend that they were
> once stars and were cast out be become lords in the
> dark underworld.

And you can probably see no fewer than three comparable myths found in
Indo-European backgrounds as well. Lucifer's being cast out of Heaven to
begin with. the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse (which actually derives
partially from the 4 Arch Angels, which in turn comes from other sources
such as the "4 Storms" in Asian developments). And I could go on and on and
on...

>It was thought that the tzitzimitl
> were the creatures who would initiate the final
> destruction of the Mexica world and universe. Depicted
> in codex Magliabechiano, recto 76, as a skeleton with
> a rattlesnake for a penis and earrings of a human hand
> and necklace of human hearts and hands. The hair is
> unkempt and are generally considered female.
>
> Hang on - female skeletons with dicks? :)

No, female in form and appearance only, not in process or function. And the
philosophical implications of the appearance go way beyond what Ahuizotl has
provided as well. And, just to help clarify further, the image might be
declared as feminine, but there are no mentions further of any procreative
powers possessed by them. They are in fact more along the lines of a
androgenous hermaphrodite, having in possession the mutated sexual organs of
both male and female beings.

> Do you mean the Tzitzimitl are considered female, or
> something else?

See above.

> > > Can anyone fill me in?
> >
> > did this help?
>
> Still leaves some questions, but yeah, it helped.
>
> Btw, as Al pointed out to me, that skeleton image is a
> shocker. :)

More than you could ever imagine. I've seen one artists renderings of them
when I lived in Arizona ... absolutely stunning work from the guy ... only
two things were wrong with them, neither of which did I understand at the
time. He had given them wings along the lines of a bat, when in fact the
representations of a wings I have since found afterwards is that any time
they appear with wings, they are vast like the eagle's but black like the
crows/ravens. Most of the time, they are in some kind of sarape'/scarf that
seems to come from a darkness unknown.

The other thing was, he did them on black velvet ...... (shudders)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 71
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:53:31 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: Atlantis


>> See, there was a misunderstanding, it was a mutoeny.
>Never did work out why Don Toe mutoenied when it was
>his ship, or why I was expected to keep a cutlass
>between my teeth for the whole thing when everyone
>else got automatic weapons, but I was payed and
>blackmailed -ahem- blacknailed well enough not to ask
>questions. I do find it telling that on an expedition
>to the Mediterranean we spent most of the time going
>around Barbados, though.
>
>What? What was that, Don Toe?
>
>*Doc' bends over as The Toe whispers in his ear, then
>straightens, a puzzled expression on his face...*
>
>Don Toe told me to say something about..."thong bikinis"...
>


Yes, it all makes sense now, what else would a detachable toe be interested
in but thongs?
(this joke does not travel well, since most of the world calls what we call
thongs 'flip flops' or something. Then again what most people call thongs we
call G-Strings, which just confuses things further. Ah, the mind of El Duce
Toe is inscrutable.)
Message no. 72
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:20:19 +0300
Aris "Deathspirit" Stremmenos wrote:
>
> > The sunken island of Thera has been rediscovered some 20.000 years ago
> > by the first inhabitants of Greece! :)
> > It still remains very much discovered and teeming with tourists every
> > summer!
> > It is also known as Santorini (paraphrase of Santa Irene, named by the
> > Venetian conquerors in the middle ages). (btw Thera in ancient Greek
> > means Gate, doorway)
>
> Thera the island is written with a h (eta) and not with a u (upsilon) like
> gate. But to be honest I don't know if the name of the island is derived
> from the word gate (thyra).
>

Actually you are right but it does mean gate as it is a prohellenic
written form
(like the spartans said selhnh as selana and other stuff like that)


> > The volcano has erupted ca 1500 BC and the tidal wave submerged the
> > whole northern part of the (fairly big) island of Crete to the south and
> > spelled the end of the Minoan civilisation (said by some to be the
> > original Atlantean civilisation).
>
> Highly unlikely...Atlantis wasn't a big island, according to legend. Also
> the minoan civilization didn't have the same traits (technology etc.) as the
> Atlantean civilization.
>

It is all reputedly so and the technology of the atlanteans was supposed
to be unbelievably advanced but was it relly?
(if they ever existed)
or wis it the stuff myths aree made from?

tan-tan...tan-tan <breath takingly exciting music>

...

...

I gues no one will ever know! :)


> > Any way, more than half of the island
> > sunk and ...

snip

...I guess that some pretty nifty secrets (no few of
> > them related to horrors-tzimizine demons) would be found if they were to
> > find a place where to dig.
> >
> >
> > Btw has any one here been interested in finding Atlantis or has been
> > involved in a shadowrun that made use of the mythos? I'd love to hear
> > all about it!
> >
> >
>
> Hmmmmmm, after finishing out all the Yakuza bastards, why don't you make a
> campaign in Atlantis, for our party? It would be quite interesting... :)
>

Don't you just love player ignorant of their doom?
He thinks I have NOT included Atlantis in this campaign... <evil grin>

The wiz
Message no. 73
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:20:22 +0300
Phil Smith wrote:
>
> >From: Manolis Skoulikas <great_worm@*****.com>
> >Btw has any one here been interested in finding Atlantis or has been
> >involved in a shadowrun that made use of the mythos? I'd love to hear
> >all about it!
>
> Is it just me or did anyone else read the first bit of that first sentence
> and think Mr Wiz was asking if anyone on this list has actively sought out
> Atlantis in the real world?
>

I wouldn't be asking such a ludicrous question as we all know that
Atlantis has allready been discovered by me (in real life)!

All the comments of her Raveness and Indy were quite off the mark and i
severely resent her indecent efforts at stealing my laurels...

<procceds to bash his head repeatedly on the padded wall of his mental
sanitarium cell>


>
> Just ignore me; I didn't get much sleep last night.
>

Sorry, way too good a comment to be ignored :)

the wiz
Message no. 74
From: Simon Nixon a_9365@*******.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:46:34 BST
Just a quick query. Someone mentioned 'Heavenherds' as a magical cabal as
the powers behind the throne of Therra, possibly IE's. IIRC weren't
Heavenherds mentioned in Cybertechnology? It's somewhere in the annonymous
telephone conversation near the back IIRC.

It mentioned that they were now in Amazonia, so did they just decamp, move
shop and set up Amazonia? They're one of the three groups that can perform
cybermancy but don't. Got the information from around 10,000 years ago. Also
refers to something about weird Great Spirits of Man but not involved in
their version of Cybermancy, Passions? Oh yeah, and mentioned that holding
the title of office as head magicker was more than symbolic, thread magic?
Only know about ED what I've picked up from round SR, so any conformation or
alternatively telling me I'm all wrong is welcome. :)
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Message no. 75
From: Simon Nixon a_9365@*******.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:47:38 BST
Just a quick query. Someone mentioned 'Heavenherds' as a magical cabal as
the powers behind the throne of Therra, possibly IE's. IIRC weren't
Heavenherds mentioned in Cybertechnology? It's somewhere in the anonymous
telephone conversation near the back IIRC.

It mentioned that they were now in Amazonia, so did they just decamp, move
shop and set up Amazonia? They're one of the three groups that can perform
cybermancy but don't. Got the information from around 10,000 years ago. Also
refers to something about weird Great Spirits of Man but not involved in
their version of Cybermancy, Passions? Oh yeah, and mentioned that holding
the title of office as head magicker was more than symbolic, thread magic?
Only know about ED what I've picked up from round SR, so any conformation or
alternatively telling me I'm all wrong is welcome. :)
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Message no. 76
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:53:49 GMT
>From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
> > Think Event
> > Horison meets the Abyss :)>
>
>You want some evil genius intellect, and perhaps some minions,
>tormenting, for unknown reasons, those who enter the large habitat? FASA
>will never put out a book on that for SR ... ;)

I don't expect them to:)>

I was thinking about this plot this morning and hoping that none of my
players have joined this list yet. You could have one scene where someone
(horror marked) kills themsleves by bashing their head against a wall whilst
screaming "shut up!" The players naturally would not know that there was a
horror in communication with the NPC and get very freaked out.

Judging from the responces from all the players with more ED experience than
me, the location would probably have to be Parlainth, which isn't underwater
AFAIK. So things may alter. So,

1) does anyone have any great ideas about how to make this run even more
horrible for my players and,

2) where did those converted horror stats for SR someone made get to?

Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

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Message no. 77
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:13:46 -0700 (PDT)
--- Phil Smith <phil_urbanhell@*******.com> wrote:
> >From: Raveness Ravensbane
> <ravenessravensbane@*****.com>
> > > See, there was a misunderstanding, it was a
> mutoeny.
> > > Never did work out why
> > > Don Toe mutoenied when it was his ship, or why I
> was
> > > expected to keep a
> > > cutlass between my teeth for the whole thing
> when
> > > everyone else got
> > > automatic weapons, but I was payed and
> blackmailed
> > > -ahem- blacknailed well
> > > enough not to ask questions. I do find it
> telling
> > > that on an expedition to
> > > the Mediterranean we spent most of the time
> going
> > > around Barbados, though.
> > >
> >That's ok guys I already found Atlantis...Just me
> and
> >Indiana Jones...
> >(Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis by
> LucasArts)
>
> You mean we had to face killer sharks, interpol, the
> FBI, the major finger
> familys of New York and all those crazy dolphins who
> had it in for Simon for
> nothing?!
>
> Phil

Sorry Phil, Indy and I just went in there and
accidentally re-sank it...*wonders if that sounds
right* Actually it was those d@**** nazis...


====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

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Message no. 78
From: Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:12:59 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Simon Nixon <a_9365@*******.com>
> Just a quick query. Someone mentioned 'Heavenherds' as a magical cabal as
> the powers behind the throne of Therra, possibly IE's. IIRC weren't
> Heavenherds mentioned in Cybertechnology? It's somewhere in the annonymous
> telephone conversation near the back IIRC.

I don't have Cybertech, so I couldn't tell you about info in that. I do know
(having just skimmed it) that no mention is made in Man & Machine about the
Heavenherds.

> It mentioned that they were now in Amazonia, so did they just decamp, move
> shop and set up Amazonia? They're one of the three groups that can perform
> cybermancy but don't. Got the information from around 10,000 years ago.

If the info you mention is accurate, it makes sense that this group might
have some connection to Thera. The Empire had developed a type of extreme
techno-magical augmentation that caused similar sorts of problems for their
elite troops (this info is in the Theran Empire SB, if anybody cares). This
might explain their reluctance to practice cybermancy, even if they can do
it.

> Also
> refers to something about weird Great Spirits of Man but not involved in
> their version of Cybermancy, Passions? Oh yeah, and mentioned that holding
> the title of office as head magicker was more than symbolic, thread magic?

Passions are the "divine beings" of Earthdawn -- they are spirit
manifestations of intense emotion. (Their exact nature has never been
revealed; are they created by the emotion, or do they feed off it, not
unlike the Horrors?) One of them even made an appearance in the opening
story of "Harlequin's Back."

The significance of the top dog is (just guessing here) that he undergoes
some sort of reNaming ritual, linking his own essence to that of the
group -- essentially boosting his own power by actually *becoming* the group
in a sense. "Thread Magic" is the practice of connecting True Patterns to
each other, one of the more powerful styles available in Earthdawn. A lot of
this theorizing is based in ED magic theory (which I consider myself rather
proficient in) which doesn't really bear any significant resemblance to
magic theory in SR. If you're not familiar with the game, it isn't likely to
make much sense.

I wish I could track down a copy of Cybertechnology now. I'd love to see
that conversation.

-- Josh
Message no. 79
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:45:54 -0700 (PDT)
> >What? What was that, Don Toe?
> >
> >*Doc' bends over as The Toe whispers in his ear,
then straightens, a puzzled expression on his face...*
> >
> >Don Toe told me to say something about..."thong
bikinis"...
>
> Yes, it all makes sense now, what else would a
detachable toe be interested in but thongs? (this joke
does not travel well, since most of the world calls
what we call thongs 'flip flops' or something. Then
again what most people call thongs we call G-Strings,
which just confuses things further.

True, but I get it, and that's what counts. :)

> Ah, the mind of El Duce Toe is inscrutable.)

*Doc' pleads with Simon not to call Don Toe a "bonehead"...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 80
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:22:47 GMT
>From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
> > I didn't; he was financing us, he had his own
>ajenda.
> >
> > And if you think the Atlantis expedition was
>difficult you should see what DOn Toe put me, Al and
>Patric (along with his band of mercs) through to
>invsetigate rumors of an ancient Egyptian armor
>pricing calculation system; you must be 18.
>
>I am...tell me. :)

Sorry, a la Simon's loins comment; GM suspence device :)>

> > And don't even ask what we found out for him as to
>who is really in charge of Microsoft...
> > Phil
>
>What??
>
>He didn't tell me! :(
>
>And I thought I was Don Toe's head flunky and chief
>toe-dy...
>
>*Doc' blubbers pitifully...*

It was probably for your own protection; I get the impression that Don Toe
cosiders you a ... useful consiliere :)>

Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

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Message no. 81
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:32:21 GMT
> > See, there was a misunderstanding, it was a mutoeny.
>Never did work out why Don Toe mutoenied when it was
>his ship, or why I was expected to keep a cutlass
>between my teeth for the whole thing when everyone
>else got automatic weapons, but I was payed and
>blackmailed -ahem- blacknailed well enough not to ask
>questions. I do find it telling that on an expedition
>to the Mediterranean we spent most of the time going
>around Barbados, though.

The most impressive moment was when Don Toe took control of his ship and
imprisoned Simon whilst Bull was diving for treasure. Me and Guth managed
to evade our persuers and Simon managed to not only persuade his captors to
let him go but to deliver a speech so impressive that it reduced half of Don
Toe's goons to tears, all with his cutlass still clenched between his teeth.
That bought me and Gurth enough time to eat some lunch and moan about our
respective players before re-taking the boat. The last we saw of Don Toe
was him sailing off into the distance in a speed boat cackling manicly.

Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

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Message no. 82
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:40:36 GMT
>From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
>
>*Doc' listens closely to The Toe again...*
>
>Um, Phil, Don Toe said something about "thong bikinis"
>again...

I know nothing; but then ,he did take some trips of his own, not to mention
the time we spent a drift after he left, with only Bull's ork-smily face
picture for amusement.

>Btw, you should probably get your affairs in order. I
>hear the Thumbori Family is looking to turn you into
>"finger food"...

Damn, I knew I should have taken that bribe to stay silence.

*Phil goes to see Don Toe to beg for protection*

Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

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Message no. 83
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:15:14 -0600
Phil Smith wrote:
>>From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
>> > I didn't; he was financing us, he had his own
>>ajenda.
>> >
>> > And if you think the Atlantis expedition was
>>difficult you should see what DOn Toe put me, Al and
>>Patric (along with his band of mercs) through to
>>invsetigate rumors of an ancient Egyptian armor
>>pricing calculation system; you must be 18.
>>
>>I am...tell me. :)
>
>Sorry, a la Simon's loins comment; GM suspence device :)>
>
>> > And don't even ask what we found out for him as to
>>who is really in charge of Microsoft...
>> > Phil
>>
>>What??
>>
>>He didn't tell me! :(
>>
>>And I thought I was Don Toe's head flunky and chief
>>toe-dy...
>>
>>*Doc' blubbers pitifully...*
>
>It was probably for your own protection; I get the impression that Don Toe
>cosiders you a ... useful consiliere :)>

Gentlemen,

This thread has become a private conversation between the two of
you. Please take it to private email.

Thank you.


To Life,
-Graht
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Message no. 84
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:50:57 GMT
>Sorry Phil, Indy and I just went in there and
>accidentally re-sank it...*wonders if that sounds
>right* Actually it was those d@**** nazis...

They get everywhere don't they :)>

Okay guys, pack the scuba stuff back away, it looks like we're not going
back out there. Unless there's anything else you want to find underwater?

Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

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Message no. 85
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:08:00 GMT
>From: "Josh Harrison" <mataxes@****.net>
> > Also
> > refers to something about weird Great Spirits of Man but not involved in
> > their version of Cybermancy, Passions? Oh yeah, and mentioned that
>holding
> > the title of office as head magicker was more than symbolic, thread
>magic?
>
>Passions are the "divine beings" of Earthdawn -- they are spirit
>manifestations of intense emotion. (Their exact nature has never been
>revealed; are they created by the emotion, or do they feed off it, not
>unlike the Horrors?) One of them even made an appearance in the opening
>story of "Harlequin's Back."

I always thought that Idols were the closest thing to Passions in SR, has
anyone come up with rules for following them as totems in SR and how they
would relate to the universe?

Isn't there talk in ED of resurection being possible? Isn't that the
closest thing to Cybermancy in SR?


Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

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Message no. 86
From: Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:55:35 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Smith <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
> I always thought that Idols were the closest thing to Passions in SR, has
> anyone come up with rules for following them as totems in SR and how they
> would relate to the universe?

Well, the impression I get from "Harlequin's Back" is that the Passions are
pretty much gone, save for a few that were around back then (like Harlequin)
that remember thenm. Vestrial (the one that shows up in HB) is fairly
obviously a pale shadow of his former self.

I've never seen rules doen up for them, but if you know what emotions a
Passion is associated with, I'm sure developiing a totem (or using one
already extant) wouldn't be too much trouble.

> Isn't there talk in ED of resurection being possible? Isn't that the
> closest thing to Cybermancy in SR?

Resurrrection is possible, but after the first critical hour, it isn't very
easy. There are several magic charms that will bring a PC back from "Death's
Door" (and this is almost a literal thing in ED, btw), but once crossed
over, only legendary magic will restore somebody to life.

The reason for this is (according to the legend, anyway) that Death itself
is trapped beneath the molten surface of Death's Sea (which corresponds to
the present day Black Sea). The Passions locked him there because they
feared his power (there are cults that worship Death as a Passion) and
wanted to spare their beloved followers from Death's embrace. Because Death
is trapped, his hold on souls is weak, so they *can* be retrieved.

The legend has it that when enough blood is spilled on the ground, Death
will be freed and Death's Sea will turn from molten lava to pure water. At
this point, resurrection will no longer be possible. One of the cults I
mentioned (called the "Keys of Death") goes around killing people to try and
speed Death's return.

I always felt that this legend was connected with the magic cycle in some
way, but I haven't really explored it much.

-- Josh
Message no. 87
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:56:31 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Smith <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, June 15, 2000 3:23 AM
Subject: Re: Atlantis



>>
>>I am...tell me. :)
>
>Sorry, a la Simon's loins comment; GM suspence device :)>
>

What? My loins have been making comments again? The cream isn't working :?)
Message no. 88
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 06:11:00 -0700 (PDT)
> >>
> >>I am...tell me. :)
> >
> >Sorry, a la Simon's loins comment; GM suspence
> device :)>
> >
>
> What? My loins have been making comments again? The
> cream isn't working :?)

You know they've got a pill for that now...

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Message no. 89
From: GuayII@***.com GuayII@***.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 03:54:15 EDT
In a message dated 00-06-13 03:51:19 EDT, you write:

> More than you could ever imagine. I've seen one artists renderings of them
> when I lived in Arizona ... absolutely stunning work from the guy ... only
> two things were wrong with them, neither of which did I understand at the
> time. He had given them wings along the lines of a bat, when in fact the
> representations of a wings I have since found afterwards is that any time
> they appear with wings, they are vast like the eagle's but black like the
> crows/ravens. Most of the time, they are in some kind of sarape'/scarf
that
> seems to come from a darkness unknown.
>
> The other thing was, he did them on black velvet ...... (shudders)

Tzitzimitl meet Elvis...

Cash
Message no. 90
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Atlantis
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 07:40:07 GMT
>From: "Simon and Fiona" <sfuller@******.com.au>
> >Sorry, a la Simon's loins comment; GM suspence device :)>
> >
>
>What? My loins have been making comments again? The cream isn't working :?)

Yeah, I'd look seeing a specialist. On the upside, if ever a local theatre
group are doing a production of Naked Lunch...

:)>

Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

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Further Reading

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Thwap!