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From:	JonSzeto@*.com JonSzeto@*.com
Subject:	"Atmosphere" and "atmosphere" books
Date:	Fri, 20 Aug 1999 01:28:16 EDT

Message no. 1 Several recent, um, "discussions" have been talking about the supposedly
recent lack of "atmosphere" and "atmosphere books" (like Shadowbeat).
While
in a chat room tonight (yes, the AOL Thursday night Shadowrun chat), I
suddenly found myself wondering:

What the hell exactly IS an "atmosphere" book?

What is in such a book? What makes it different from a place book, gear book,
character book, or novel? Why would you buy it INSTEAD OF a place book, gear
book, character book, or novel?

What kind of subject matter does an "atmosphere" book talk about? What
specific content? What kind of point of view? Who is supposed to be the
"speaker"? How is it told?

What is NOT in an atmosphere book? Is there one particular subject or topic
that absolutely MUST BE AVOIDED? Any one particular way of telling stuff that
is ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN?

What about game information? And I do NOT mean rules. I mean guidelines,
suggestions, and stuff along the general lines of "Hey gamemaster, if you
want to use stuff like this in your game, here's a rough idea of how to do
it"?

And while we're on the topic, what about rules? Yes? Some? Few? Absolutely
not?

What's the player supposed to get out of it? How does it contribute to his or
her gaming sessions?

What's the gamemaster supposed to get out of it? How does it contribute to
his or her campaign?

What's a newbie supposed to get out of it? What's an old-timer who's been
around since the first edition supposed to get out of it?

Thoughts?

-- Jon

From:	Starrngr@*.com Starrngr@*.com
Subject:	"Atmosphere" and "atmosphere" books
Date:	Fri, 20 Aug 1999 02:29:29 EDT

Message no. 2 In a message dated 8/19/99 10:29:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
JonSzeto@***.com writes:

> Several recent, um, "discussions" have been talking about the supposedly
> recent lack of "atmosphere" and "atmosphere books" (like
Shadowbeat).
While
> in a chat room tonight (yes, the AOL Thursday night Shadowrun chat), I
> suddenly found myself wondering:
>
> What the hell exactly IS an "atmosphere" book?

In a word, Shadowbeat.
>
> What is in such a book? What makes it different from a place book, gear
book,
> character book, or novel? Why would you buy it INSTEAD OF a place book,
gear
> book, character book, or novel?
>
Little things that don't get brought up in the other books, like just what IS
Urban Brawl, How is it played, Etc. Or, like what came up last year when I
was setting up a charecter who loved Old TV. How much space do I have on
that Video Chiip if I was recording 1990 grade tv shows. Something that
gives me a feel for what its like to have come from a down and out Troll
family in the Barrens.

> What kind of subject matter does an "atmosphere" book talk about? What
> specific content? What kind of point of view? Who is supposed to be the
> "speaker"? How is it told?
>
See above for the first and second question. As to the point of view, thats
a harder one to answer. I would have to say its sort of a "this is a slice
of life" thing. Who the speaker would be would be sort of an "average"
person explaining the way life is to say someone who has spent the last 90
years in prison/cryostasis/Alternate Dimension....

> What is NOT in an atmosphere book? Is there one particular subject or
topic
> that absolutely MUST BE AVOIDED? Any one particular way of telling stuff
> that
> is ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN?

Nothing, IMO, with the Caveat of being able to tell what is actual rules and
what isnt (for example, the Shadowtalk in SSC or Shadowtech where they say
things about X without any idea of if its official or just a suggestion)
>
> What about game information? And I do NOT mean rules. I mean guidelines,
> suggestions, and stuff along the general lines of "Hey gamemaster, if you
> want to use stuff like this in your game, here's a rough idea of how to do
> it"?

This is the sort of information, As I mentioned from the start, that I crave.

>
> And while we're on the topic, what about rules? Yes? Some? Few? Absolutely
> not?

Mostly as they apply to the subject in question... Say the subject was Urban
Brawl, specific rules for what skills / tests to use for certain aspects of
play, such as passing the ball, etc. Like if the Drugs section from
Shadowbeat were to be re-done, rules for determining when one is addicted,
how to break it, etc.
>
> What's the player supposed to get out of it? How does it contribute to his
> or
> her gaming sessions?

Answers to little questions that bug him like someone who loves 100 year old
music and wants to know how many minutes of it fit on a modern storage media.
>
> What's the gamemaster supposed to get out of it? How does it contribute to
> his or her campaign?

A better feel for the world he is describing, as well as some rules to help
him take the game in directions he didnt think of himself without him having
to come up with it all on his own. (For example, with the information on
Urban Brawl, Some run ideas involving being hired as ringers / catch ringers,
etc...)
>
> What's a newbie supposed to get out of it? What's an old-timer who's been
> around since the first edition supposed to get out of it?

Both of them are supposed to get information that when they read it they go
"Oh! THATS what they mean when they say THAT," Or, "OH, THATS how that's
supposed to work"
>
> Thoughts?
>
Think Shadowbeat for the 2060's, maybe with or without the reporter rules,
and your pretty close to the sort of thing I'd like to see.

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	"Atmosphere" and "atmosphere" books
Date:	Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:44:34 EDT

Message no. 3 In a message dated 8/20/1999 12:29:35 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
JonSzeto@***.com writes:

>
> What's the gamemaster supposed to get out of it? How does it contribute to
> his or her campaign?
>
> What's a newbie supposed to get out of it? What's an old-timer who's been
> around since the first edition supposed to get out of it?
>
> Thoughts?

Yes Jon,

These last two "paragraphs" are the best questions in your posting IMO.
Perhaps they could be answered if there was a "brief" or "summary" of
the
information contained in a given text in the introduction? What is, or maybe
is not, within a given text?

-K

From:	Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject:	"Atmosphere" and "atmosphere" books
Date:	Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:36:13 -0500

Message no. 4 > Several recent, um, "discussions" have been talking about the supposedly
> recent lack of "atmosphere" and "atmosphere books" (like
Shadowbeat).
> While
> in a chat room tonight (yes, the AOL Thursday night Shadowrun chat), I
> suddenly found myself wondering:
>
> What the hell exactly IS an "atmosphere" book?
>
> What is in such a book? What makes it different from a place book, gear
> book,
> character book, or novel? Why would you buy it INSTEAD OF a place book,
> gear
> book, character book, or novel?
>
Well, I think we all have different definitions of atmosphere. I will
attempt to provide my definition.
What makes it different from other books is it's almost lack of focus. It
doesn't talk about places, gear, characters, or tell a story. It simply
provides background information. What does a Shadowrunner do in his spare
time? Does he go to Dante's? What type of music is played at Dante's? What
do you wear (all we know is "high fashion")? A new list of slang would be
nice (hasn't been one since 1st ed.). What ethnic groups are you likely to
find at Dante's? Who's the mover and shaker in the fashion world? Stuff a
strictly shadowrunning book wouldn't tell you. What do people do for
entertainment? (This sort of information would be useful even to
Shadowrunners - it's nice to know what the Johnson does on a Saturday night
so you can pick him off there.)

> What kind of subject matter does an "atmosphere" book talk about? What
> specific content? What kind of point of view? Who is supposed to be the
> "speaker"? How is it told?
>
Speaker? How about a newsfax publication? Esquire? GQ? Details? Rolling
Stone? These types of magazines would probably still exist. I liked the
format taken by Shadowbeat, laid out like a TV Guide. Something similar
could be done. An interesting format would be the Quick Look at the 10 Most
Influential Cities in the World. What do people in LA do different than
people in Chicago? Do people from FDC talk different than people from
Seattle?

> What is NOT in an atmosphere book? Is there one particular subject or
> topic
> that absolutely MUST BE AVOIDED? Any one particular way of telling stuff
> that
> is ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN?
>
Well, shadowrunning shouldn't necessarily enter the picture. No stories of
runs!! Unless shadowrunning is the latest craze to sweep the nation, it
should be left on the sidelines.

> What about game information? And I do NOT mean rules. I mean guidelines,
> suggestions, and stuff along the general lines of "Hey gamemaster, if you
> want to use stuff like this in your game, here's a rough idea of how to do
>
> it"?
>
Yeah, that's good. Some new equipment would be nice, although not like the
format in NAGRL. While that gear was nice, it wasn't necessarily "Real
Life." What's the latest word in desk accessories? What's the latest pocket
secretary like?

> And while we're on the topic, what about rules? Yes? Some? Few? Absolutely
>
> not?
>
Actually, a book of this nature would be a good place to put the credstick
rules again. DocWagon response times (From NAGRL) also have a place, but I
would tend to skimp on the rules. There's really no need for a chart
determining theater ticket prices.

> What's the player supposed to get out of it? How does it contribute to his
> or
> her gaming sessions?
>
A better look at the world he lives in. The difference between the 1920s and
1990s is tremendous. This is the same amount of time that's passed from now
till 2060. There's got to have been some changes in how people act, dress,
go to work, etc.

> What's the gamemaster supposed to get out of it? How does it contribute to
>
> his or her campaign?
>
In my mind, L5R did this best with their Gamemaster's Book. It provided more
detailed rules, some errata and changes, a long comprehensive guide to
writing adventures, and a long, look at everyday life and what to expect
when you meet a hinin on the road. We have the Player's Comp for SR. How
'bout a GM's Comp.? It could provide all this "atmosphere" info, along with
whatever else you guys feel the SR GM needs. Half the book could be
atmosphere, the other half GM stuff.

> What's a newbie supposed to get out of it? What's an old-timer who's been
> around since the first edition supposed to get out of it?
>
The newbie will get a better grasp of his place in the world. SR does tend
to focus on one minority group (Runners) to the exclusion of all others.
What's everybody else doing in the Sixth World?? The old-timer will get the
same thing. I've been around since 1st ed and I couldn't tell whether
leather jackets are "cool" or not. It's never been stated. While fashion is
a fairly minor thing to throw in there, there is a ton of everyday info that
no one knows. What do street signs look like? Do people drive their own
cars? Do people still get mail or is it all e-mail now? Can everyone afford
a maid?

> Thoughts?
>
I hope this helps show the mindset of where we're (or just me) coming from.
I don't think the whole book should be atmosphere, but I certainly wouldn't
mind significant section of another book (GM book, pretty, pretty please)
would be cool.

On a side note, I thought R2 had the right amount of atmosphere. Short
stories interspersed throughout the book, detailing various riggers and what
they do. While most of the book was obviously rules, rules, rules, I thought
the stories presented the right tone for the book, as well as giving an
interesting look at different riggers and what they do. While it didn't fill
me in on the world any, it certainly presented Riggers with a good amount of
detail (outside of rules).

From:	MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject:	"Atmosphere" and "atmosphere" books
Date:	Fri, 20 Aug 1999 23:32:02 -0400

Message no. 5 Once upon a time, Jon Szeto wrote;

>Several recent, um, "discussions" have been talking about the supposedly
>recent lack of "atmosphere" and "atmosphere books" (like
Shadowbeat). While
>in a chat room tonight (yes, the AOL Thursday night Shadowrun chat), I
>suddenly found myself wondering:
>
>What the hell exactly IS an "atmosphere" book?

And I think that is the crux of what you are getting at. This whole
thread about atmosphere has gotten assinine. People here can no longer
see the forest for the trees in their lemming mad rush qualifying books
as atmosphere or not. I'll be glad when the leader of this blind panic
throws himself first off the cliff.
Since the start Shadowrun has always presented itself to give the
reader a sense of how things are in Shadowrun as well as being a good
read. Textbook style approaches to books were only used when no other way
was possible to present the material. With only a few books in the long
line having to resort to straight forward presetation of material and a
line of novels, I find the quest for this mythical atmosphere completely
unexplained.
Too many people here seem to have no knowledge of what they have and
no grasp of what they want. The persistance of this topic is proof
enough. I hope this question made at least a few of these people rethink
this line of thinking.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"When _I_ use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful
tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
-Through the Looking Glass

I am MC23

From:	Schizi@*.com Schizi@*.com
Subject:	"Atmosphere" and "atmosphere" books
Date:	Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:49:25 EDT

Message no. 6 In a message dated 8/20/99 1:29:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, JonSzeto@***.com
writes:

>
> What the hell exactly IS an "atmosphere" book?
>
> What is in such a book? What makes it different from a place book, gear
book,
>
> character book, or novel? Why would you buy it INSTEAD OF a place book,
gear
>
> book, character book, or novel?

I would say an atmosphere book (at least the ones that have been discussed
lately) are there to provide a more detailed setting for a group without the
time/inclination/ability to design one themselves. A glimpse into the
everyday life around the Shadowrunners.
What do runners see when they walk down the street?
Is there a Paper Nuyen?
If a troll walks down the street, what kind of reaction will he get? what
about the stores he shops in?

Place books provide the details of that place for someone that doens't know
it well, but a lot of times, tehy tend to turn it into "why would a runner be
here" instead of presenting an overall view (IMO, YMMV)
Rules in such books are fine, though I generally prefer them at the end
(stats also)

I want something that the players can go through and say "this would be a fun
place for my PCs to be" (A few of the PCs in Twists game are going to blow
off our current mission and go tot he mall to play Btech, is something wrong
witht hat? :-)

From:	Twist0059@*.com Twist0059@*.com
Subject:	"Atmosphere" and "atmosphere" books
Date:	Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:54:39 EDT

Message no. 7 In a message dated 8/21/99 8:50:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Schizi@***.com
writes:

> I want something that the players can go through and say "this would be a
fun
>
> place for my PCs to be" (A few of the PCs in Twists game are going to blow
> off our current mission and go tot he mall to play Btech, is something
wrong
>
> witht hat? :-)

Lo-Pan is not pleased.

-Twist

From:	Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject:	"Atmosphere" and "atmosphere" books
Date:	Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:38:53 -0500

Message no. 8 > >Several recent, um, "discussions" have been talking about the
supposedly
> >recent lack of "atmosphere" and "atmosphere books" (like
Shadowbeat).
> While
> >in a chat room tonight (yes, the AOL Thursday night Shadowrun chat), I
> >suddenly found myself wondering:
> >
> >What the hell exactly IS an "atmosphere" book?
>
> And I think that is the crux of what you are getting at. This whole
> thread about atmosphere has gotten assinine. People here can no longer
> see the forest for the trees in their lemming mad rush qualifying books
> as atmosphere or not. I'll be glad when the leader of this blind panic
> throws himself first off the cliff.
> Since the start Shadowrun has always presented itself to give the
> reader a sense of how things are in Shadowrun as well as being a good
> read. Textbook style approaches to books were only used when no other way
> was possible to present the material. With only a few books in the long
> line having to resort to straight forward presetation of material and a
> line of novels, I find the quest for this mythical atmosphere completely
> unexplained.
> Too many people here seem to have no knowledge of what they have and
> no grasp of what they want. The persistance of this topic is proof
> enough. I hope this question made at least a few of these people rethink
> this line of thinking.
>
Mmm. Sorry. Didn't cause me to rethink. Mainly because I'm not in the camp
of Shadowbeat and NAGRL as being atmosphere books. (NAGRL provided very
little Real Life info - just info for Shadowrunners.) My big thing about an
atmosphere book is that there is no description of what your average person
does. Just Shadowrunners. There is no info on what sort of entertainment the
average person does. Is the theater still alive? Who knows.

Have the standards and practices of mass media continued to slide? Who
knows.
While cyberware is nice for runners, does the average man make use of it?
Are there 'otaku' (original use of the word) communities sprung up
everywhere?

Shadowrun is in a long line of cyberpunk games. Yet there are no 'cyberpunk'
themes explored except for cyberware and waging war against corporations
(Which isn't actually done in most cyberpunk literature). How is SR
cyberpunk? Is it? Should it be? It's common knowledge that SR is set in
2060, yet there is no similar readjustment of culture. That's 90 years in
the future! Things are bound to change. These changes need to be explored.

These are the questions I'd like addressed. It doesn't necessarily have to
be a separate 'atmosphere' book, but this info would be nice in fleshing out
the world a little more.

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