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Message no. 1
From: Joe McNulty <mcnultyj@****.JMB.COM>
Subject: Attributes
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 08:02:42 CST
Ok, got a question about raising attributes with karma.

In the first edition it seemed pretty clear that you could only raise an
attribute 1 point above your original score, but in SRII, it is not clear,
and depensing on how you read the section, it could mean you could raise
it all the way to your racial max. and beyond!

Now, before you give your view, read the section below on raising Skills,
its worded only slightly differently, you see, therein lies the confusion!

Vulture
Message no. 2
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 09:06:21 GMT
>In the first edition it seemed pretty clear that you could only raise an
>attribute 1 point above your original score, but in SRII, it is not clear,
>and depensing on how you read the section, it could mean you could raise
>it all the way to your racial max. and beyond!

In SR2 you may raise your attributes as much as you like, up to 1.5 your
racial maximum. To raise it past your racial maximum I think it costs
*double*. So, starting at 4, a human could spend 5 to raise his Body to
5, 6 to make it 6, and starting with seven he pays double so it's 14 for
7, 16 for 8, and 18 for 9. Total 59 karma. I don't have my rules with me but
I think that's how it works.


J Roberson
Message no. 3
From: Matthew Johnson <mjohnson@*.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Attributes
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:15:30 -0700
How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain attributes up
to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have always been this way, but
I wonder why.

---------------------------
Matthew Johnson
mjohnson@*.arizona.edu
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~mjohnson
ftp://150.135.184.121 login: anonymous pw: email
----------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:52:32 PST
> How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain
attributes up to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have always
been this way, but I wonder why.
>

We use that rule. Generally people don't buy the higher attributes,
though. They take them most all up to 6 and sit tight.

One annoying thing is how expensive that gets for attributes with high
racial maximums- like troll body. Its very much worth it for a troll to
take willpower to 6 (12 karma), but body to 12 (24 karma)? IMHO,
attribute costs should be idependant of racial modifiers (as it is with
cyber modified attributes). That would mean more big, dumb trolls, even
after karma expenditure.

Why use it? Well, even the standard rule, it gives the samurai
something to spend karma on besides combat skills or "becoming a well
rounded person", which are normally the two avenues available. That
tends to help maintain character diversity- Other characters purchase a
variety of skills thatgive tham an edge, and good stats: the samurai
keeps his edge by getting really great stats.

It should also help those Physical adepts out, it they weren't to proud
to raise a stat past racial max without using magic. Heck, that high
magic rating just sucks when you bite a deadly wound or need a stim.
I'd say anything they can purchase WITHOUT magic points, they should.

Attributes raised above racial maximum (without cyber or magic, and
likely with) would probably tend to create very noticable character
traits, though.



Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 5
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:09:38 -0500
> From: Matthew Johnson <mjohnson@*.ARIZONA.EDU>
> Date: Monday, December 08, 1997 5:15 PM

> How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain
attributes up
> to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have always been this way,
but
> I wonder why.

I don't. To me, the words "racial maximum" mean just that - the maximum
you can reach for that race. The only way I allow an attribute to rise
above that maximum is via the appropriate edge(s) or via cyber/bioware or
magic.

> ---------------------------
> Matthew Johnson

Justin :)
Message no. 6
From: James Paul Morgan <jpmorgan@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:15:52 -0700
On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Matthew Johnson wrote:

> How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain attributes up
> to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have always been this way, but
> I wonder why.
>

I used it in my first Shadowrun campaign, but then cut it. For one, it
made the sams way too powerful when they could have a 12 strength and
quickness. (1.5 * racial == 9, add in muscle 2 or 3 and you're getting
insane.)

I also didn't like that took away one of the special benefits of
being a physical adept. Now, I only use the 1.5 x racial for extra karma
for physical adepts.



See ya around the Mulberry bush.

--James

:)
Message no. 7
From: Adam Treloar <guardian@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:21:53 +1100
On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, James Paul Morgan wrote:

> > How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain attributes
up
> > to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have always been this way, but
> > I wonder why.
> >
>
> I used it in my first Shadowrun campaign, but then cut it. For one, it
> made the sams way too powerful when they could have a 12 strength and
> quickness. (1.5 * racial == 9, add in muscle 2 or 3 and you're getting
> insane.)

Which is why our group imposes a limit of only raising a stat twice via
karma - it stops people getting straight 9s in the stats. If you start
out not being strong, or heavily built, then a little experiece isn't
going to alter much.

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:29:27 EST
> > How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain
> attributes up
> > to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have always been this way,
> but
> > I wonder why.

I do. I've had one person use it for only one point...They raised
Intel to 7 (human). No one else wants to spend the Karma. I think
it accurately shows truly extraordinary people. I view the 1-6
thing as the average distribution...Body 6's aren't overly common,
but there isn't a shortage of buff guys (and gals). Body 7's and
8's are pretty rare baring augmentation, but they're out there....and
If a player wants to dedicate the effort (i.e. Karma), I see no
reason to stop them. I'd block it if it became a munchie problem,
but no such problem yet.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 9
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:32:11 -0500
> From: Adam Treloar <guardian@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
> Date: Monday, December 08, 1997 6:21 PM

> Which is why our group imposes a limit of only raising a stat twice via
> karma - it stops people getting straight 9s in the stats. If you start
> out not being strong, or heavily built, then a little experiece isn't
> going to alter much.

Sure, a LITTLE experience won't - but there is no physical limitation that
keeps weakling humans from building their bodies up significantly within
their lifetimes. IMO, there's no reason why a person with a 2 body can't
eventually have a body of 6 (the same goes for strength). It is difficult,
but that's what the money and karma costs are for. As a house rule, I
double the karma costs for increasing an attribute once it has already been
raised. I triple the base cost once an attribute has been raised twice,
etc....to show how much dedication must be spent doing such a feat.

> Guardian

Justin :)
Message no. 10
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:22:12 +0000
> How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain attributes up
> to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have always been this way, but
> I wonder why.

I allow it, but the characters have to pay double karma cost AND find
a damm good trainer (and pay them).

Stat karma costs should NOT be independant of race, since the higher
levels can make a big difference. A troll should cost more for a
higher body since it allows them a better chance of getting successes
and makes them harder to kill than a human. Therefore gamebalance
needs a higher cost.
That and it will take a lot more food and exercise/training for a
larger body to gain noticeably than it will for a small body. If
players argue to much remind them that it will take more effort and
care to maintain the higher levels of stats than the lower levels.

If body doesn't worry you think of charisma.

Elf with charisma 8 can summon force 3 spirits for L drain.
Elf with charisma 9 can summon force 4 for L.
at 1.5 time max this is charisma = 12.
That's a force 5 spirit (threat rating 5) for 5L drain.
Force 5 spirits become a problem for others and the shaman can call
them up one to a complex action and at that level with very little
risk of drain.
And for hermetics worry about the one with 12 force 5 elementals on
call.
Fox on the Net
Message no. 11
From: lucifer <lucifer@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:36:46 -0800
Matthew Johnson wrote:
> How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain
attributes up
> to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have always been this way,
but
> I wonder why.

Well, as a GM I allow it. But I also use the book suggestion making it
double Karma cost once past racial max. I allow it because I think it
reflects the fact that with sometimes you will have those individuals that
go beyond what was thought to be possible. Besides, with the prohibitive
karma cost, I haven't found allowing this to be a problem....
Message no. 12
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:22:27 -0500
On Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:15:30 -0700 Matthew Johnson
<mjohnson@*.ARIZONA.EDU> writes:

<<How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain attributes
up to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have always been this
way, but I wonder why.>>


I always have in the past, but the games I've played have always been
highly ... 'cinematic' :), sometimes bordering on ridiculously so. The
other thing is that I have never had a character stick around long enough
in any game I've been in to raise any stat more than ... twice, maybe.
Three times, if they stuck around more than was usual.


--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 13
From: Adam Treloar <guardian@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:10:19 +1100
On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Justin Pinnow wrote:

> Sure, a LITTLE experience won't - but there is no physical limitation that
> keeps weakling humans from building their bodies up significantly within
> their lifetimes. IMO, there's no reason why a person with a 2 body can't
> eventually have a body of 6 (the same goes for strength). It is difficult,
> but that's what the money and karma costs are for. As a house rule, I
> double the karma costs for increasing an attribute once it has already been
> raised. I triple the base cost once an attribute has been raised twice,
> etc....to show how much dedication must be spent doing such a feat.

Fine, difference of opinion on the physical stats... What, then, about,
say intelligence? CAn someone go from being dumb as a rock (ie 1) to a
super-genius? (9?) It depends on your view, again, I suppose, but I tend
to think that some people just don't have the smarts to do some things.

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 14
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:30:26 -0500
> From: Adam Treloar <guardian@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
> Date: Monday, December 08, 1997 8:10 PM

> On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Justin Pinnow wrote:

> > Sure, a LITTLE experience won't - but there is no physical limitation
that
> > keeps weakling humans from building their bodies up significantly
within
> > their lifetimes. IMO, there's no reason why a person with a 2 body
can't
> > eventually have a body of 6 (the same goes for strength). It is
difficult,
> > but that's what the money and karma costs are for. As a house rule, I
> > double the karma costs for increasing an attribute once it has already
been
> > raised. I triple the base cost once an attribute has been raised
twice,
> > etc....to show how much dedication must be spent doing such a feat.

> Fine, difference of opinion on the physical stats... What, then, about,

Actually, I don't think this is a case of difference of opinion. I am sure
that there have been people who have increased more than the equivalent of
1 or 2 points of body and/or strength in their lifetimes. Then again, I am
not really motivated to back my case up with factual cases or anything. ;)

> say intelligence? CAn someone go from being dumb as a rock (ie 1) to a
> super-genius? (9?) It depends on your view, again, I suppose, but I tend
> to think that some people just don't have the smarts to do some things.

Well, I don't think that the Intelligence attribute really measures how
smart you are. I think it measures how quick you think on your feet and
how perceptive you are. Skills are more reflective of intelligence, IMO.
If someone spends their time studying, I think it will eventually appear
they are more intelligent because they know and can do more.

And I do feel that perception and quick witted thinking can be trained.

Of course, my view on Intelligence is simply my opinion, and not canon.

> Guardian

Justin :)
Message no. 15
From: "Simon.M" <Simon.M@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:29:18 -0000
> How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain
attributes up
>to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have always been this way, but
>I wonder why.


I use that as well.
No idea why, just always done it.

Weird.
Message no. 16
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 04:18:22 +0100
At 08-Dez-97 wrote Matthew Johnson:

> How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain
>attributes up
>to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have always been this way, but
>I wonder why.

I don`t, because at some point it has to stop.

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 17
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:06:54 +0000
On 8 Dec 97, Mon goose disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> > How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain
> attributes up to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have
> always been this way, but I wonder why.

> We use that rule. Generally people don't buy the higher attributes,
> though. They take them most all up to 6 and sit tight.

We use that rule, too...

> One annoying thing is how expensive that gets for attributes with
> high racial maximums- like troll body. Its very much worth it for a
> troll to take willpower to 6 (12 karma), but body to 12 (24 karma)?
> IMHO, attribute costs should be idependant of racial modifiers (as
> it is with cyber modified attributes). That would mean more big,
> dumb trolls, even after karma expenditure.

Well, that's what we do - the Karma cost is based on the Attribute
UNMODIFIED by racial modifiers. That means that for that Troll to
take his willpower up to 6, he's gonna pay for raising it from 7 to
8, for (remember the Karma x2 for exceeding racial max) 16 Karma.
Though, on the other hand, raising the Body will be cheaper for
him...


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Star Wars fan and Amber junkie; FIAWOL; WTF TKD TOO;
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
I've charmed you! - Dara
In your own delicate way, at sword's point, yes.- Corwin
Message no. 18
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:33:38 +0100
> How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain
attributes up
>to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have always been this way, but
>I wonder why.

I usually the rules from SR1 where you can only upgrade attributes by one
point from its original value. I allow them to devellop 1 more point,
eventually above racial maximum, in some special events. As an exemple, I
allowed a PC to raise his willpower at 7 after the Harlequin's back
campaign. I allowed another one to raise its intelligence after a 2 years
long campaign.

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "You are who you know"
Message no. 19
From: HAUPT ULRICH FB08 <sandman@****.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:55:28 MEZ-1MESZ
> How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain attributes up
> to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have always been this way, but
> I wonder why.

I don't because there is no need for IMO! If the characters are weak
they have to think more and I appreciate thinking more than rolling
dice.

Sandman
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:37:44 +0100
Matthew Johnson said on 15:15/ 8 Dec 97...

> How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain
> attributes up to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have always
> been this way, but I wonder why.

I use it, but it's only been used once in 4 1/2 years of playing SRII.
This was a human street sam who was almost obsessed with getting a high
Body, who took Body 6 at chargen, plus he had dermal plating 3,
suprathyroid gland, and plastic bone lacing. Then he went and spent 14
Karma to up his natural Body to 7...

(I'd like to take this opportunity to stop anyone from yelling "munchkin!"
right here, BTW.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - 5044116
N.B. Please do not read the lyrics while listening to the recordings.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 21
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:19:01 +0000
On 9 Dec 97 at 12:10, Adam Treloar wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Justin Pinnow wrote:
[snip Justin's simple, yet genius system]

> Fine, difference of opinion on the physical stats... What, then, about,
> say intelligence? CAn someone go from being dumb as a rock (ie 1) to a
> super-genius? (9?) It depends on your view, again, I suppose, but I tend
> to think that some people just don't have the smarts to do some things.
As I suggested this system to my gaming group, I had to do some
calculations. Note I added an *2 multiplier when stat was higher then
racial maximum.

Also: Character, human, starts STR 2, wants to raise STR to 8.
old System new System
Advance Cost Advance Cost
2 -> 3 3 2 -> 3 3
3 -> 4 4 2 -> 3 6
4 -> 5 5 4 -> 5 15
5 -> 6 6 5 -> 6 6 * 4 = 24
6 -> 7* 14 6 -> 7* 35 * 2 = 70 (ups)
7*-> 8* 16 7*-> 8* 48 * 2 = 96
---- ------------
48 214

with starting STR 4:
old System new System
Advance Cost Advance Cost
4 -> 5 5 4 -> 5 5 * 1 = 5
5 -> 6 6 5 -> 6 6 * 2 = 12
6 -> 7* 14 6 -> 7* 7 * 2 * 2 = 28
7*-> 8* 16 7*-> 8* 8 * 3 * 2 = 48
----- -----
41 93

with starting STR 6
old System new System
Advance Cost Advance Cost
6 -> 7* 14 6 -> 7* 7 * 1 * 2 = 14
7*-> 8* 16 7*-> 8* 8 * 2 * 2 = 32
----- -----
30 46

You see, the costs for raising an attribute more then two or three
times get ridiculous high, thus preventing any but the most determined
chars to raise that high. And yes, I would allow a character who spend
2 + 6 + 12 + 20 + 30 + 84 + 112 + 144 Karma Points (410) to do the
raise. Plus, you are wrong - high Intelligence doesn't make you a
super-genius. Skills make you genius, while the Attribute
"Intelligence" seems to be a misnomer, as it's mostly used for
perception tests, or to determine how many locks a shaman can have
activated...

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |'The rich control |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| The Government, |
| \___ __/ | | The Media, |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | And the Law!' |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | - Queensryche |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 22
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 06:43:46 -0700
Matthew Johnson wrote:
/
/ How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain attributes up
/ to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have always been this way, but
/ I wonder why.

I do. I feel that the characters are heros (of a sort ;) and that
they should be able to get that edge. I also apply the rule to major
NPCs.

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes.
Art is knowing which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 23
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:45:30 +0000
On 8 Dec 97 at 15:15, Matthew Johnson wrote:

> How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain attributes up
> to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have always been this way, but
> I wonder why.

Me, I hate that rule. It allows players to write practically immortal chars
(and that's very possible with the normal rules alone) and when they get
immortal, the roleplaying get's very bad (as you don't have to worry about
anything, unless the GM throws bugs and cybermancers at you all the time
and I hate that even more :)).
I actually like to keep an eye on what the players do with their karma.
This way, I can make sure, no one starts serious powergaming and the whole
game is still fun for everyone...


Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
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Message no. 24
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:51:53 EST
> > How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain attributes
up
> > to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have always been this way, but
> > I wonder why.
>
> I don't because there is no need for IMO! If the characters are weak
> they have to think more and I appreciate thinking more than rolling
> dice.
>

But you seem to be thinking in terms of Body or Strength Only. THe
only time this was used in my campaign, it was used for intel. I
have another character who is thinking of raising Charisma like this
(Which is mainly for role-playing, since she has enough skill that
the difference between Charisma 6 and 7 is non-existant.)

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 25
From: Kevin R Mohondro <mohkev@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:31:21 -0800
> From: Matthew Johnson <mjohnson@*.ARIZONA.EDU>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Attributes
> Date: Monday, December 08, 1997 2:15 PM
>
> How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain
attributes up
> to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have always been this way,
but
> I wonder why.

I don't use it. I asked my players if they wanted this in the game. They
voted and since every rule they get to use, I can use for the opposition,
they decided against it.


--
-Moe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin R Mohondro mohkev@******.com
Software Engineer
SalePoint/Retail Interact (619) 552-2026
Message no. 26
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:48:54 +0000
> How many of you use the Attributes rule where you can attain attributes up
> to 1.5 x racial max. The games I have played have always been this way, but
> I wonder why.

The main thing to remember (IMHO) is game balance. High stats do
make a big difference and therefore should be harder to achieve.
Racial mods should be applied before calculating karma costs.
All else being max'ed out, an elf going Qu 7 - 8 gains a point of
reaction and a point of Combat Pool. And athletics pool if you're
using one.
A human going from Qu 6-7 just moves slightly faster when
walking or running.
Should these two cost the same in Karma ?

Should it cost the same for a troll to max strength as for a human ?
The difference in power in melee is huge.
Human (Str 6) v enemy in armour jacket : final power is 3. 4 out of
6 dice rolled to stage damage down will succeed.
Troll (Str 10) v enemy in armour jacket : final power is 7. 1 out of
6 dice rolled succeed.
That's one quarter of the previous number of successes !

Ratings above max should be VERY exceptional, otherwise why call the
limit a max ?
To make sure that they remain rare they need to be expensive.
In Karma, Money, Game Time or any combination of the above.
I've found that double cost above max stops most players while making
it possible to do if it fits the concept of the character.
And for the phys-ad (to save magic points and give them another
advantage) let them go above max for 1.5x cost.
In all cases the player should also be told that the character will
be noticeable (probably not good for a 'runner).

As to whether it's allowed or not, I think one of the best things to
do (as suggested by Kevin R Mohondro) is ask the players.
And point out that it works both ways. If they haven't got the
imagination to worry about the potential in NPC's they might not
abuse the rule themselves. And if they try anyway ?
Damn, those teachers can be so hard to find..........




Fox on the Net
Message no. 27
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:11:13 +0000
In article <Pine.BSF.3.95.971209120714.20245A-
100000@*******.dialix.com.au>, Adam Treloar <guardian@*******.DIALIX.COM
.AU> writes
>Fine, difference of opinion on the physical stats... What, then, about,
>say intelligence? CAn someone go from being dumb as a rock (ie 1) to a
>super-genius? (9?) It depends on your view, again, I suppose, but I tend
>to think that some people just don't have the smarts to do some things.

Intelligence isn't about "smarts", it's about perception. Your archetype
absent-minded mad professor has a skill of Weird Science 10, but an
Intelligence of 1: he might be able to build a Positron Dematerialiser
Ray out of paperclips and torch batteries, but he can't remember where
he left his glasses, and doesn't notice the men with guns in his lab
until he trips over them :)

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 28
From: "Logan Graves <Fenris>" <logan1@*****.INTERCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:35:48 -0500
In our last episode, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>
>
> Intelligence isn't about "smarts", it's about perception. Your archetype
> absent-minded mad professor has a skill of Weird Science 10, but an
> Intelligence of 1: he might be able to build a Positron Dematerialiser
> Ray out of paperclips and torch batteries, but he can't remember where
> he left his glasses, and doesn't notice the men with guns in his lab
> until he trips over them :)

Batteries for torches?!? I always thought ya just "rubbed two sticks
together." ;-D

Seriously 'tho, Paul's right. Intel = Perception which is the opposit
of many RPG's (eg. it's not a measurement of 'how many spells you can
memorize.') You use the Stat's value for un/opposed perception rolls.

--Fenris (who's sore that he beat me to the answer).

_______________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) [Meta-]physics isn't a religion. If it were,
we'd have a much easier time raising money.
(>) --Leon Lederman, [hermetic mage]
Message no. 29
From: Adam Treloar <guardian@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:48:52 +1100
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> >Fine, difference of opinion on the physical stats... What, then, about,
> >say intelligence? CAn someone go from being dumb as a rock (ie 1) to a
> >super-genius? (9?) It depends on your view, again, I suppose, but I tend
> >to think that some people just don't have the smarts to do some things.
>
> Intelligence isn't about "smarts", it's about perception. Your archetype
> absent-minded mad professor has a skill of Weird Science 10, but an
> Intelligence of 1: he might be able to build a Positron Dematerialiser
> Ray out of paperclips and torch batteries, but he can't remember where
> he left his glasses, and doesn't notice the men with guns in his lab
> until he trips over them :)

Not what I meant... (as an irrelevant aside, why is it called
intelligence if FASA means perception?)

Anyway, what I meant is that the brain goes from being rather unperceptive
and not very quick thinking to being VERY active and noticing even the
smallest detail, nevermind that the person can make all sorts of
intuitive leaps that just weren't possible before (ie defaulting to
intelligence on the skill web) IMHO it's just not feasible for the brain
to develop that much.

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 30
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:38:22 +0100
>Intelligence isn't about "smarts", it's about perception. Your archetype
>absent-minded mad professor has a skill of Weird Science 10, but an
>Intelligence of 1: he might be able to build a Positron Dematerialiser
>Ray out of paperclips and torch batteries, but he can't remember where
>he left his glasses, and doesn't notice the men with guns in his lab
>until he trips over them :)

IMO, Intelligence is perception and in some way the intelligence. The
reason is that perception is interpreted as being the ability to understand
what is behind the informations you perceive and so is the sign of some
intelligence. Second, if you look at the skill web, you will see that
knowledges default to intelligence in most cases.
And yes, by the system, you can be dumb (Int 1) and very skilled. First,
you can easily ask a player to devellop more its attribute(s) to raise a
skill and/or ask him to devellop a skill or two to raise an attribute (I
remember to have given such a house rule a few years ago...).
Here is the system I use :
- The attributes in my SR game are : Strength, Agility, Charisma,
Manipulation, Willpower and Intelligence. Which gives three groups
(physical, social and mental) with 2 attributes each. Ont is the active
attribute and the other is the passive one.
- The skills are limited to the sum of two attributes, one active and one
passive. Thus, your skill armed combat is limited to Strength + Agility.

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "You are who you know"
Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:44:07 +0100
William Gallas said on 9:38/10 Dec 97...

> IMO, Intelligence is perception and in some way the intelligence. The
> reason is that perception is interpreted as being the ability to understand
> what is behind the informations you perceive and so is the sign of some
> intelligence. Second, if you look at the skill web, you will see that
> knowledges default to intelligence in most cases.

Being able to recall knowledge is not the same as being intelligent. Many
people confuse the two, calling someone who doesn't know some or another
fact "dumb" or "stupid," which is something else entirely.
Intelligence is, IMHO, being able to extrapolate from the knowledge you
already have -- adapting things you learned to new situations, and to draw
your own conclusions rather than rely on the ones someone else hands you.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - 5044116
N.B. Please do not read the lyrics while listening to the recordings.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 32
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:04:50 +0100
>Being able to recall knowledge is not the same as being intelligent. Many
>people confuse the two, calling someone who doesn't know some or another
>fact "dumb" or "stupid," which is something else entirely.
>Intelligence is, IMHO, being able to extrapolate from the knowledge you
>already have -- adapting things you learned to new situations, and to draw
>your own conclusions rather than rely on the ones someone else hands you.

QI tests show that intelligence implies good memory. Very few people are
able to remember a lot of things while they are totally dumb. Do you think
you could remember something you don't understand ? Quite true for simple
things but not for a knowledge like those provided by skills.

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "You are who you know"
Message no. 33
From: "Simon.M" <Simon.M@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:05:07 -0000
Right, so far i have endevored to make a list of atributes that seem to be
needed for shadowrun.


Bod vs shock
Bod vs inpact
Bod vs stabbing
Bod vs slashing

Stamina

Strength in arms
Strength in legs
Strength in torso

Quickness

Agility

Dexterity

Charisma

Appearence

Manipulation

Willpower

Wits

Inteligence

Perception

Reaction


If this illistrates the point, i think all we really need is the ones we
have. With mabye the excetpion of Apearence(Unchangeable after the start
without cosmetic surgery[i like this idea]).

Perception can be expresed as a skill if needs be.
Message no. 34
From: "Simon.M" <Simon.M@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:58:25 -0000
I always thought inteligence wasn't what you know but the ability to make
links. For example Sherlock Homes was always making links between certian
peices of evidence and getting the correct conclusions. This ties in with
the skill webs because even if you don't know the skill, you can figgure it
out with the correct linking.

I always thought the measure of perception was reaction(an amalgimation of
intelligence, speed of thought and will).

But thats just me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
"YES, YES, YES, I DID IT!!!!! JUST DON'T HURT ME."
"Ahhhhhh, so what was it you did?"
"Could you give me a clue?"
-Inquisitor James and member of the public.
Message no. 35
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:31:11 PST
>The main thing to remember (IMHO) is game balance. High stats do
>make a big difference and therefore should be harder to achieve.
>Racial mods should be applied before calculating karma costs.
>All else being max'ed out, an elf going Qu 7 - 8 gains a point of
>reaction and a point of Combat Pool. And athletics pool if you're
>using one.
>A human going from Qu 6-7 just moves slightly faster when
>walking or running.
>Should these two cost the same in Karma ?
>

Your talking about the difference between 16 and 14 karma points- they
basically DO cost the same karma.
Also, your "combat pool bonus" isjustan artifactof rounding. All other
stats being 6, raising quickness from 5 to 6 is more benificial than
raising it fron 6 to 7, combat pool and resction wise. Should THAT cost
more karma?

>Should it cost the same for a troll to max strength as for a human ?
>The difference in power in melee is huge.
>Human (Str 6) v enemy in armour jacket : final power is 3. 4 out of
>6 dice rolled to stage damage down will succeed.
>Troll (Str 10) v enemy in armour jacket : final power is 7. 1 out of
>6 dice rolled succeed.
>That's one quarter of the previous number of successes !

True, but trolls SHOULD be terrifieng in melee. Its tough to start near
racial max in STR with a troll character (you likely sink lots of points
into other stats to survive). Then, reaching racial maximum, or even
above average for a troll, is very karma intensive. So most PC trolls
end up with like 8 str, and don't want to waste karma raising it. Take
my troll Air adept(please!). Starting body 5. I think I can find a
better use for 6 karma than raising body, but if he were human, raising
his body would cost only 2 karma. Reaching Racial norm would cost my
character 11 karma, but only 5 if he were human. Thats DOUBLE the price
for the same kind of developement.

The flip side is that its TOO easy for races with stat PENALTIES to
reach racial maximum. A troll with 1 intellegence reaches racial
maximum for 9 karma. An average human (3 INT) needs 15 karma for
intellegence to reach racial max. Are there really that many "5th
pecentile" trolls? Then why is troll intellegence listed as averaging
1, when any pud can dig up the karma to raise it to 2 or 3?

The fact thatsome sts would be HARDERto raisewould , imo, preserve
gamebalance, and better reflect racial "stereotypes", insted of all
folks topping out stat purchases in the 5-7 range.


>As to whether it's allowed or not, I think one of the best things to
>do (as suggested by Kevin R Mohondro) is ask the players.
>And point out that it works both ways. If they haven't got the
>imagination to worry about the potential in NPC's they might not
>abuse the rule themselves. And if they try anyway ?
>Damn, those teachers can be so hard to find..........

We haven't required teachers (if you have a 6 body, its presumed you
know how to eat healthy and work out). We have required approprite
conditions (no wounds, good lifestyle, time, etc).
Still, few PC's go for the "overmax" attributes, so I wouldn't expect
many NPC's with them either. Besides, just add a point or 3 of threat-
that will do about the same thing, unless you need a fast, spell
resistant npc who can carry 50 kilos of gear, 9 active spellocks, and
the majority of Califonia votes.

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 36
From: Matthew Johnson <mjohnson@*.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:59:03 -0700
> Here is the system I use :
> - The attributes in my SR game are : Strength, Agility, Charisma,
> Manipulation, Willpower and Intelligence. Which gives three groups
> (physical, social and mental) with 2 attributes each. Ont is the active
> attribute and the other is the passive one.
> - The skills are limited to the sum of two attributes, one active and one
> passive. Thus, your skill armed combat is limited to Strength + Agility.
>
> Cobra.
That is an interesting system, and I like the idea. what do you do about
all attribute tests for Body? Use Strength instead? Of course, it is rare
that a skill will reach the sum of those two attributes. Well, perhaps not
rare, but it will keep those who are really low in attributes from getting
far skill wise. Average human NPC, all 3s, max 6 on a skill.

---------------------------
Matthew Johnson
mjohnson@*.arizona.edu
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~mjohnson
ftp://150.135.184.121 login: anonymous pw: email
----------------------------
Message no. 37
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:07:53 +0100
>That is an interesting system, and I like the idea. what do you do about
>all attribute tests for Body? Use Strength instead?

I changed the combat/damage system too, so you don't need to roll your body
to soak damages. This makes combat more deadly and faster. For other tests,
I use strength as body because someone with muscles (big strength) can
resist contusions and someone fat (big body) does have a good strength due
to his masse. I liked the idea that resistance and power are based on the
same attribute.


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "You are who you know"
Message no. 38
From: HAUPT ULRICH FB08 <sandman@****.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:26:11 MEZ-1MESZ
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:07:53 William Gallas wrote:

> For other tests,
> I use strength as body because someone with muscles (big strength) can
> resist contusions and someone fat (big body) does have a good strength due
> to his masse.

How did your solve the problem that fat people often have a low
constitution? (They often do have heart problems and tire fastly)
Do you differ between muscle mass and fat mass? I just think about
the big cracker eating decker/hacker (maybe like the one in Jurassic
Park).

Sandman
Message no. 39
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:47:32 +0100
>How did your solve the problem that fat people often have a low
>constitution? (They often do have heart problems and tire fastly)
>Do you differ between muscle mass and fat mass? I just think about
>the big cracker eating decker/hacker (maybe like the one in Jurassic
>Park).

In this system, endurance is not included in strength. To resist sickness
or to know how if you can run during a long time, you will use the average
of strength and agility. Thus, someone fat (big strength and low agility)
will resist less than a muscled one (big strength and big agility), as is
for someone thin (low strength and bid agility).


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "You are who you know"
Message no. 40
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Attributes
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:53:04 +0100
William Gallas said on 12:04/10 Dec 97...

> QI

You're French, right? That explains the reversed abbreviation... ;)

> tests show that intelligence implies good memory. Very few people are
> able to remember a lot of things while they are totally dumb. Do you think
> you could remember something you don't understand ? Quite true for simple
> things but not for a knowledge like those provided by skills.

That is not what I was saying. My point was that you can be intelligent
but have little knowledge -- for example if you never had the opportunity
to go to school, even if you are much more intelligent than anyone around
you, you will be limited to the knowledge that the people you deal with
can teach you. In developed countries this is a very rare situation,
granted.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - 5044116
N.B. Please do not read the lyrics while listening to the recordings.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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