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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Nathan Sharpe)
Subject: Augmented Folks and Automatic Weapons
Date: Wed Oct 24 10:55:02 2001
This is my first post, and I'm relatively new to Shadowrun (been playing about
4 months), so please forgive me if I ask a few stupid questions. Anyway, my
friends and I have been trying to figure out how automatic (and burst-fire)
weapons work with augmented folks with a high initiative. I hope I'm
understanding the rules correctly. Anyway, suppose I have wired 2 (or 3,
whatever) and that I'm using an Ingram Smartgun (or other fully auto weapon).
Say I get an initiative of 21. That means I can get off 30 rounds
(practically a whole clip!) in that turn, right (10 per phase, of which I have
3)? But someone with an initiative of 8 can only loose 10 rounds max. How's
this possible? All you have to do is hold down the trigger, right? I don't
see how you can get triple the output in the same amount of time; it doesn't
seem to have anything to do with how fast you are - it's all about the weapon
you're using. Thanks in advance for your answers (and for tolerating my
ignorance?).

--------
Nathan Sharpe

"There is a way which seems right to man, but its end is the way of death." -
Proverbs 14:12
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Augmented Folks and Automatic Weapons
Date: Wed Oct 24 11:30:01 2001
In a message dated 10/24/01 10:58:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
nsharpe@****.uark.edu writes:

> All you have to do is hold down the trigger, right? I don't
> see how you can get triple the output in the same amount of time; it
doesn't
>
> seem to have anything to do with how fast you are - it's all about the
> weapon
> you're using.

Assumedly, the 10 shot blasts are aimed more at controlled bursts, so you
pull and release (and, are so good at it you can pick the # of rounds...)
Cyclical rates for most of the weapons is high enough to empty the magazine
pretty quickly, but as a game rules/ balance issue, they limit it to 10
rounds. (why they don't limit it to 9, or 12, some other number easier for
the system is a different subject)
So, the enhanced reactions merely allow them to fire such extended bursts
more often due to greater control.

(though, why some poor shlub can't fire off 30 rounds in searching fire and
have some kind of odds of hitting SOMETHING is beyond me, but since he still
suffers recoil mods with the enhanced dice, he'd still miss everything
completely)
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ahrain Drigar)
Subject: Augmented Folks and Automatic Weapons
Date: Wed Oct 24 11:45:00 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: Nathan Sharpe <nsharpe@****.uark.edu>
Subject: Augmented Folks and Automatic Weapons


> This is my first post, and I'm relatively new to Shadowrun (been playing
about
> 4 months), so please forgive me if I ask a few stupid questions. Anyway,
my
> friends and I have been trying to figure out how automatic (and
burst-fire)
> weapons work with augmented folks with a high initiative. I hope I'm
> understanding the rules correctly. Anyway, suppose I have wired 2 (or 3,
> whatever) and that I'm using an Ingram Smartgun (or other fully auto
weapon).
> Say I get an initiative of 21. That means I can get off 30 rounds
> (practically a whole clip!) in that turn, right (10 per phase, of which I
have
> 3)? But someone with an initiative of 8 can only loose 10 rounds max.
How's
> this possible? All you have to do is hold down the trigger, right? I
don't
> see how you can get triple the output in the same amount of time; it
doesn't
> seem to have anything to do with how fast you are - it's all about the
weapon
> you're using. Thanks in advance for your answers (and for tolerating my
> ignorance?).

First, I think the only stupid question is the one not asked, so no prob.

OK, Full-Auto mode requires a complex action to fire. Therefore only 1
action in a turn. You declare how many rounds and roll with a +1 TN per
round fired. (pg. 115-116 SR3)

Actions are on pgs 105-107 SR3. only 1 complex action per turn (fire FA
weapon), 1 simple action per initiative pass (shooting a SS, SA, or BF
weapon), etc.

Of course this may be different in SR2, I haven't looked at the books in a
while. : )

Ahrain
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Melina York)
Subject: Augmented Folks and Automatic Weapons
Date: Wed Oct 24 12:00:02 2001
>> All you have to do is hold down the trigger, right? I don't
>> see how you can get triple the output in the same amount of time; it
>doesn't
>> seem to have anything to do with how fast you are - it's all about the
>> weapon
>> you're using.


The way I see it is that the person with the higher initiative pulls the
trigger first, getting 30 rounds off to the other guy's 10. This is a bit of
a throwback to SR1&2 when the guy with the initiative of 21 would get two
actions before the guy with 8 would even start moving. Still, the logic is
sound I think: if you react faster, you pull the trigger first.

SR is an abstract game when you get right down to what happens in each
combat phase, so linear thinking doesn't always work (see the thread on the
martial arts system). It doesn't realistically simulate cyclical rates in
almost any gun, or the nitty-gritty mechanics of any attack for that matter.
I don't think that's the point. Is there any playable game that actually
succeeds in recreating the ROF of a modern weapon?

IMHO, the guy with an initiative of 21 *shouldn't* be using full auto - he's
got more actions to use than a normal human can dream of. Accurate,
controlled burst fire will be both easier and more effective than squeezing
off a whole clip (and possibly missing with a large percentage of the rounds
fired), unless your doing suppression fire. There are players in my own
group who would disagree with me on this of course.

Pete
player, GM, and general SR addict
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (David Buehrer)
Subject: Augmented Folks and Automatic Weapons
Date: Wed Oct 24 13:05:01 2001
At 09:55 AM 10/24/2001 -0500, Nathan Sharpe wrote:
>This is my first post, and I'm relatively new to Shadowrun (been playing
>about
>4 months), so please forgive me if I ask a few stupid questions. Anyway, my
>friends and I have been trying to figure out how automatic (and burst-fire)
>weapons work with augmented folks with a high initiative. I hope I'm
>understanding the rules correctly. Anyway, suppose I have wired 2 (or 3,
>whatever) and that I'm using an Ingram Smartgun (or other fully auto
>weapon).
>Say I get an initiative of 21. That means I can get off 30 rounds
>(practically a whole clip!) in that turn, right (10 per phase, of which I
>have
>3)? But someone with an initiative of 8 can only loose 10 rounds max. How's
>this possible? All you have to do is hold down the trigger, right? I don't
>see how you can get triple the output in the same amount of time; it doesn't
>seem to have anything to do with how fast you are - it's all about the weapon
>you're using. Thanks in advance for your answers (and for tolerating my
>ignorance?).

Congratulations, you have found one of the few inconsistencies of Shadowrun :)

This issue comes up repeatedly on ShadowRN, and we still haven't quite
resolved it. If you have any ideas, we'd love to hear them :)

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Augmented Folks and Automatic Weapons
Date: Wed Oct 24 13:30:14 2001
According to Nathan Sharpe, on Wed, 24 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> This is my first post, and I'm relatively new to Shadowrun (been playing
> about 4 months), so please forgive me if I ask a few stupid questions.

Welcome to the list. We've seen enough stupid questions already not to care
about one more ;)

> Anyway, my friends and I have been trying to figure out how automatic
> (and burst-fire) weapons work with augmented folks with a high
> initiative. I hope I'm understanding the rules correctly. Anyway,
> suppose I have wired 2 (or 3, whatever) and that I'm using an Ingram
> Smartgun (or other fully auto weapon). Say I get an initiative of 21.
> That means I can get off 30 rounds (practically a whole clip!) in that
> turn, right (10 per phase, of which I have 3)?

Yep.

> But someone with an initiative of 8 can only loose 10 rounds max. How's
> this possible? All you have to do is hold down the trigger, right? I
> don't see how you can get triple the output in the same amount of time; it
> doesn't seem to have anything to do with how fast you are - it's all about
> the weapon you're using.

In SR, full-automatic fire is not keeping the trigger pressed all the time
-- it "models" (for want of a better word :) firing short- to medium-length
bursts every time you have an action. So, the street sam with initiative 21
fires three controlled ten-round bursts, and aims a bit in between firing
them. Joe Slow with initiative 8, however, spends a lot more time aiming and
less time firing because his body simply goes a lot slower than the
heavily-wired street sam's.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Those Who Do Do Not Know the Past are Doomed to Reboot it"
-- Paranoia R&D Catalog
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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ahrain Drigar)
Subject: Augmented Folks and Automatic Weapons
Date: Wed Oct 24 15:30:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Augmented Folks and Automatic Weapons


>> Anyway, my friends and I have been trying to figure out how automatic
>> (and burst-fire) weapons work with augmented folks with a high
>> initiative. I hope I'm understanding the rules correctly. Anyway,
>> suppose I have wired 2 (or 3, whatever) and that I'm using an Ingram
>> Smartgun (or other fully auto weapon). Say I get an initiative of 21.
>> That means I can get off 30 rounds (practically a whole clip!) in that
>> turn, right (10 per phase, of which I have 3)?
>
>Yep.
>
>> But someone with an initiative of 8 can only loose 10 rounds max. How's
>> this possible? All you have to do is hold down the trigger, right? I
>> don't see how you can get triple the output in the same amount of time;
it
>> doesn't seem to have anything to do with how fast you are - it's all
about
>> the weapon you're using.
>>
>>In SR, full-automatic fire is not keeping the trigger pressed all the time
>>-- it "models" (for want of a better word :) firing short- to
medium-length
>bursts every time you have an action. So, the street sam with initiative 21
>fires three controlled ten-round bursts, and aims a bit in between firing
>them. Joe Slow with initiative 8, however, spends a lot more time aiming
and
>less time firing because his body simply goes a lot slower than the
>heavily-wired street sam's.

Really? I just relooked at the rules in the BBB (pg. 115). Bursts are 3
rounds, short bursts are 2 (if you're short 1 bullet in a clip), both being
simple actions. Full auto, which is what I get from this question, is a
number of bullets designated by the firer and is a complex action, therefore
being the only action in a turn.

Am I missing something? Are we talking about SR2? If I'm wrong, please let
me know. This is just wierd.

Ahrain
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Augmented Folks and Automatic Weapons
Date: Wed Oct 24 15:40:00 2001
ra002585@***.unicamp.br
>
> Really? I just relooked at the rules in the BBB (pg. 115). Bursts are 3
> rounds, short bursts are 2 (if you're short 1 bullet in a clip), both being
> simple actions. Full auto, which is what I get from this question, is a
> number of bullets designated by the firer and is a complex action, therefore
> being the only action in a turn.
>
> Am I missing something? Are we talking about SR2? If I'm wrong, please let
> me know. This is just wierd.

IIRC, you have a Complex Action per _phase_, not per turn. When
it's time for you to act (your Combat Phase), you can always do a Free
Action, and choose between either two Simple Actions or one Complex
Action. So, if you go in more than one Combat Phase that turn, you can
fire several full-auto volleys.

--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://www.shadowland.com.br
-- Redator da RPG em Revista
http://www;rpgemrevista.f2s.com
ICQ # 4055455
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Augmented Folks and Automatic Weapons
Date: Wed Oct 24 16:10:01 2001
From: "Ahrain Drigar" <Ahrain_Drigar@*******.com>
<Snip>
> OK, Full-Auto mode requires a complex action to fire. Therefore only 1
> action in a turn. You declare how many rounds and roll with a +1 TN per
> round fired. (pg. 115-116 SR3)
>
> Actions are on pgs 105-107 SR3. only 1 complex action per turn (fire FA
> weapon), 1 simple action per initiative pass (shooting a SS, SA, or BF
> weapon), etc.

SR3 pg 105: Free Actions:
A character may take a Free Action during their own Combat Phase and during the
Combat Phase of any other character, as long as it is declared.

SR3 pg 105: Simple Actions:
A Free Action may be taken in place of a Simple Action.
During his Combat Phase, a character may take up to two Simple Actions or one
Complex Action.

SR3 pg 107: Complex Action:
Only one Complex Action is possible per Combat Phase.

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
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Main Rule of Usenet: Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to
their level, then beat you with experience.
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Achille Autran)
Subject: Augmented Folks and Automatic Weapons
Date: Wed Oct 24 18:50:01 2001
> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:55:39 -0500
> From: Nathan Sharpe <nsharpe@****.uark.edu>
>
> This is my first post,

Well Nathan, welcome to this crazy house! Keep coming with questions,
people here won't call you stupid

> I don't
> see how you can get triple the output in the same amount of time; it doesn't
> seem to have anything to do with how fast you are - it's all about the weapon
> you're using.

Well, you've hit right on the head on of the big problem of the
Shadowrun firearms combat system, but the whole thingy can get palatable
with some proper seasoning.

You have to keep in mind that an "action" in SR involves more than just
one move. To fire a 10 bullets burst, for example, one would have to
move out of cover, assess the situation, choose a target, aim, select
the fire mode, brace the gun properly, and eventualy pull the trigger...
It would be wise to move back to cover, then. For the common folk, 3
seconds is just enough to make all those things: he may hesitate, spend
more time to choose is target, have to think over his firing
fundamentals. For the wired guy however, his moves are reflexes, with
only overviewing central brain control. He does not hesitate, moves in
one smooth, focused motion with little to no time lost. This may be
dangerous, as the speedy dude may not properly assess and pick a wrong
target... It may be wiser for him to spend a single action to get a good
look and aim at a target, and then fire a short burst. But all in all,
it's not that the augmentated guy acts quicker, it's more that he loses
less time. He /reacts/ quicker more than he /acts/ quicker. And in the
end, he comes closer to the physical limits of his weapons (RoF-wise)
that his unaugmentated counterpart.

That how I rationnalized that part of the rule, and it gives a good
taste of how a wired person feels in action. However, things really fall
appart when you hit actions that aren't related to reaction time but
other characteristics. Some are handled well, like running: when you
run, you run, and an enhanced reaction time doesn't improve that much
(enhanced quickness does: it's your action). Others like suppressive
fire (keeping the trigger down and spraying lead around) make little
sense within the rules.

That's why many people have house-ruled that one character can spend his
whole turn doing the "continuous action" of laying down suppressive
fire, with a maximum of 30 rounds per turn, or a whole clip if its
capacity is around 30, 50 for miniguns, 60 for "super machine guns".
Those RoF are sensible for MG-style autofire, where you don't want too
many bullets coming down the barrel for heating reasons (the feeding
mecanisms can usualy handle much higher RoF for short bursts.)

Anyway, I don't know if the idea has been tossed around already, but I
think this "continuous action" idea may be worth some generalization.
Let's say:

Continuous Action:
Characters can attempt one Continuous Action per Combat Turn, discarding
any other Action except Automatic ones. This reflects devoting all their
activity toward a single, well defined goal of which time of execution
isn't related to reaction. A character rolls initiative as usual only
for the first Turn when he or she starts the Continuous Action, to see
when the Action starts effectively. For all subsequent Turns, consider
that the Action is delayed from one Turn to the next, keeping going. The
character can't use combat pool dices to dodge, unless he or she stops
the ongoing action, though this does not grant them any other action
(except automatic ones) for the remaining of the Turn.

Some ideas of Continuous Actions:
Sprinting: aka running for your life in the shadows. A sprinting
character can run his full running movement and benefit from athletics
rolls (remove the athletics roll from the in-combat, per Combat Phase
running described in SR3, p.108.)

Long actions: actions that demand a base time (like cracking that
fragging maglock open!) are considered as Continuous Actions as long as
the character keeps on working on them.

Sustained (suppressive/searching) fire: this action represents
battery-style suppressive fire, usually from a secure position (machine
gun nest, trench, vehicule turret...) All type of weapons can perform
this kind of fire, with the following rates of fire:
Firing mode RoF (rounds per Combat Turn of Sustained fire)
SS 3
SA 6
BF 18
FA 30
Autocannons 35
Miniguns 50
Super MG 60
Use the standard rules for suppressive fire (Cannon Companion p.106)
with the following modifications:
- firing modes up to and including SA don't suffer the +2 suppressive
fire malus on the attack test.
- BF firing mode suffers a +1 suppressive fire malus on the attack test.
More bullets, less precision, it's a trade-off.
- firing modes above and including FA don't suffer the +2 suppressive
fire malus on the attack test if there is a way to locate the impact of
the bullets. This is up to the GM. Raised dust functions, until there is
too much of it in the air. Tracer rounds always function. It's their
sole advantage, and it's what they were designed for (Am I wrong with
this assumption? The current mechanics for tracers are extremely cheesy,
they don't event help with suppressive fire and are almost worthless
except with partly compensated long bursts. The mechanics above make
more sense for me.)
- platoon fire is possible, i.e. if 5 persons lay down sustained fire
with SA rifles down the same area, consider it as the same as a
30-rounds hail from a MG (with the tracer bonus.) That makes platoon
fire something to be reckoned with. ;-)
Weapons not designed to endure sustained high rates of fire are likely
to be damaged if they are used for sustained fire for too long. This
mainly includes machine pistols, SMGs and assault rifles on BF and FA
modes. After every X clips (how much? I dunno how easily an AR barrel is
ruined by heat.) apply a cumulative +1 modifier on all shots with the
weapon. Only barrel exchange can repair this. Alternative: change the
Rule-of-One to the Rule-of-1&2, then to the Rule-of-1&2&3, etc. or
whatever variable fumble rule you possibly use.

Matrix ongoing, monitored actions could fit the Continuous Action
template as well.

Well, does this seems playable? Expandable? Sensible? Any additional
Continuous Actions ideas? If someone wants to playtest it, go on and
please let me hear how it worked, I'm running fairly low-powered
campaigns with little combat these days and I'm highly unlikely to try
these rules myself.

Molloy
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (James Zealey)
Subject: Augmented Folks and Automatic Weapons
Date: Wed Oct 24 19:55:00 2001
>> Really? I just relooked at the rules in the
>> BBB (pg. 115). Bursts are 3
>> rounds, short bursts are 2 (if you're short 1
>> bullet in a clip), both being
>> simple actions. Full auto, which is what I
>> get from this question, is a
>> number of bullets designated by the firer and
>> is a complex action, therefore
>> being the only action in a turn.
>>

>> Am I missing something? Are we talking about
>> SR2? If I'm wrong, please let
>> me know. This is just wierd.

> IIRC, you have a Complex Action per _phase_,
> not per turn. When it's time for you to act
> (your Combat Phase), you can always do a Free
> Action, and choose between either two Simple
> Actions or one Complex Action. So, if you go
> in more than one Combat Phase that turn, you
> can fire several full-auto volleys.

They're right - an FA shot fires 10 bullets (18
if it's a HV, 15 if its a rotary). It takes a
complex action, of which you get 1 per pass. A
highly wired individual can ALMOST fire as many
bullets out of a gun as the gun can fire (I
believe that automatic weapons tend to have
cyclic rates of about 600-odd rpm, which is 30
bullets in 3 seconds). Someone with MBW 3 or 4
would be exceeding the cyclic rate of their gun
quite easily.

It might be worthwile setting some absolute
upper limit for the quantity of bullets which
can come out of a gun (or specific guns
depending on your desired detail level) in 3
seconds - then allow a long burst to consist of
up to that many rounds. Lets face it - most of
the time it's not even possible to compensate 10
bullets let alone the 30 or so that this would
allow.
It would allow you to do suppression fire quite
effectively though (not a game-balance problem
in my eyes - suppression fire is quite often
more useful for a lower-skilled individual than
a highly skilled one). And it would fix the
problem of "the wired guys gun shoots faster
than mine".


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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ahrain Drigar)
Subject: Augmented Folks and Automatic Weapons
Date: Wed Oct 24 21:50:01 2001
>From: "James Zealey" <incubus@*********.zzn.com>
>Subject: Re: Augmented Folks and Automatic Weapons
>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:51:23 +1000
>
> >> Really? I just relooked at the rules in the
> >> BBB (pg. 115). Bursts are 3
> >> rounds, short bursts are 2 (if you're short 1
> >> bullet in a clip), both being
> >> simple actions. Full auto, which is what I
> >> get from this question, is a
> >> number of bullets designated by the firer and
> >> is a complex action, therefore
> >> being the only action in a turn.
> >>
>
> >> Am I missing something? Are we talking about
> >> SR2? If I'm wrong, please let
> >> me know. This is just wierd.
>
> > IIRC, you have a Complex Action per _phase_,
> > not per turn. When it's time for you to act
> > (your Combat Phase), you can always do a Free
> > Action, and choose between either two Simple
> > Actions or one Complex Action. So, if you go
> > in more than one Combat Phase that turn, you
> > can fire several full-auto volleys.
>
>They're right - an FA shot fires 10 bullets (18
>if it's a HV, 15 if its a rotary). It takes a
>complex action, of which you get 1 per pass. A
>highly wired individual can ALMOST fire as many
>bullets out of a gun as the gun can fire (I
>believe that automatic weapons tend to have
>cyclic rates of about 600-odd rpm, which is 30
>bullets in 3 seconds). Someone with MBW 3 or 4
>would be exceeding the cyclic rate of their gun
>quite easily.
>
>It might be worthwile setting some absolute
>upper limit for the quantity of bullets which
>can come out of a gun (or specific guns
>depending on your desired detail level) in 3
>seconds - then allow a long burst to consist of
>up to that many rounds. Lets face it - most of
>the time it's not even possible to compensate 10
>bullets let alone the 30 or so that this would
>allow.
>It would allow you to do suppression fire quite
>effectively though (not a game-balance problem
>in my eyes - suppression fire is quite often
>more useful for a lower-skilled individual than
>a highly skilled one). And it would fix the
>problem of "the wired guys gun shoots faster
>than mine".

OK,I stand corrected. (cowing sheepishly actually). I looked right at AND
over that little fact. Like I said before it has been a LONG while. I
think I will crawl back under my rock now. : )

Ahrain

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Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Augmented Folks and Automatic Weapons
Date: Wed Oct 24 22:15:01 2001
> > Really? I just relooked at the rules in the BBB
(pg. 115). Bursts are 3 rounds, short bursts are 2
(if you're short 1 bullet in a clip), both being
simple actions. Full auto, which is what I get from
this question, is a number of bullets designated by
the firer and is a complex action, therefore being the
only action in a turn.
> >
> > Am I missing something? Are we talking about SR2?
If I'm wrong, please let me know. This is just wierd.
>
> IIRC, you have a Complex Action per _phase_, not
per turn. When it's time for you to act (your Combat
Phase), you can always do a Free Action, and choose
between either two Simple Actions or one Complex
Action. So, if you go in more than one Combat Phase
that turn, you can fire several full-auto volleys.
> Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR

What you're forgetting (not Bira, the other dude,
whose name I couldn't find :) ) is that full auto
attacks are assigned as a series of bursts (or one
long burst if you're only attacking a single target).
Gurth's right. The closest to true full auto fire are
the special fire options (suppressive and that other
one, whatever the hell it's called) from CC.

Actually, if you're really concerned with this issue,
try this logic and slight rules change.

1. SS and SA function as described and represent
things like bolt action (or other weapons that are
slower for whatever reason) and semi-automatic weapons
respectively.
2. BF functions as described. This represents
squeezing off occasional bursts, probably while
dodging around.
3. FA functions as described and represents firing
more or onger bursts with less movement.
4. Suppressive fire (and that other option - what is
it called, searching fire?) represent full auto
hosing. They function as described, except with the
following difference: calculate how many actions the
fastest person in the round has. Multiple this number
by 10. This is the maximum number of bullets anyone
can fire in these modes for that round. To make things
survivable, you can only fire this many bullets if
this is the ONLY action you take for the round. If you
have multiple actions and you do something else
besides suppressive fire (or the other one), you use
the vanilla rules from CC and the number of actions
you spend determines how many rounds you can fire.

Now, this is just off the top of my head, so it
probably needs work, but I think it has potential.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Augmented Folks and Automatic Weapons
Date: Wed Oct 24 23:40:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> 4. Suppressive fire (and that other option - what is
it called, searching fire?) represent full auto
hosing. They function as described, except with the
following difference: calculate how many actions the
fastest person in the round has. Multiple this number
by 10. This is the maximum number of bullets anyone
can fire in these modes for that round. To make things
survivable, you can only fire this many bullets if
this is the ONLY action you take for the round. If you
have multiple actions and you do something else
besides suppressive fire (or the other one), you use
the vanilla rules from CC and the number of actions
you spend determines how many rounds you can fire.
> Doc'

Jeez, I write this, then I see Molloy's post.

So I'm behind the times, so what?

Go check his rules out.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Augmented Folks and Automatic Weapons
Date: Thu Oct 25 05:20:01 2001
According to Ahrain Drigar, on Wed, 24 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> Really? I just relooked at the rules in the BBB (pg. 115). Bursts are 3
> rounds, short bursts are 2 (if you're short 1 bullet in a clip), both
> being simple actions. Full auto, which is what I get from this question,
> is a number of bullets designated by the firer and is a complex action,
> therefore being the only action in a turn.

Obviously, it's not the only action in a turn, if you have more than one. At
any rate, if you are holding a RL full-automatic firearm, then you can fire
off short, controlled bursts, too: press the trigger and release. In SR,
it's clear that you can do this as well -- why else would you be able to
choose how many rounds you fire in FA mode?

> Am I missing something? Are we talking about SR2? If I'm wrong, please
> let me know. This is just wierd.

I was trying to rationalize the rates of fire for whoever asked about them
(sorry, I forgot your name :) and what I posted is one of the few
explanations that works, IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Those Who Do Do Not Know the Past are Doomed to Reboot it"
-- Paranoia R&D Catalog
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrun)
Subject: augmented folks and automatic weapons
Date: Thu Oct 25 13:10:05 2001
first of welcome Nathan ,

>all you need to do is hold down the trigger

okay have you ever fired an automatic weapon , it ranks all
the way up there with sex for the first time , ( yes i need
to get out more too ;-) ) , trust me it is fun and you are
lucky to get your shots on the target , but enough RL , lets
get back to the important stuff , your super fast initiative
people could re-aim better than your non enhanced beings ,
it's not a matter of clearing a magazine ( which is as easy
as holding down the trigger) but getting the shots to hit
your intended target , your slower people just don't realise
that the target is paste , and to move along ,or elvis has
left the building and it is time to re aim , your fast folks
just keep popping at the target , changing as need be

fire without compensation results in negative mods to hit
( 30 shots one big headache on rerolls +30 to TN's ) < still a
traditionalist 2nd
ed'er >


Kanniemeernie korperaal
" do not stop an army on it's way home " SUN-TZU

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