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Message no. 1
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:52:18 -0500
[much discussion about auras and the Masking adept snipped]

A great deal has been bandied around about the topic of auras, astral space,
etc. As Ereskanti pointed out, it is without a doubt the most confusing
aspect of SR magic. I'm not going to sole it here and now (sorry, folks) but
it is an issue for SR3 and I wanted to comment on a few things.

<personal rant: ON>
First off, on the subject of "real world" magic as it relates to Shadowrun.
My simple answer is: it doesn't. Before everyone jumps on me let me say that
I both believe in and practice magic myself (as those of you who read the
interview of Fro's Shadowrun Supplimental know). I'm a pagan. I believe magic
is real. I have dozens of books on magical theory from Crowley to Carroll to
Starhawk. I also know that much of the original Shadowrun magi system is
based on Paul Hume's personal experiences with magic. (Paul is a practicing
mage in the Thelemic tradition and an initiate of the Ordo Templi
Orientalis).

However, Shadowrun is a GAME. It is under no constraint to conform to
anyone's particular theories about how magic "really" works. For one thing,
magical theory in the real world is hardly what I would call a coherent body
of work. Ereskanti points out that the aura exists. That may be so, but I can
point out plenty of other magicians who believe it doesn't exist, and many
more who agree it exists but don't agree about what it is and what it does. I
can likewise point out magicians who believe the astral plane (or something
much like it) exists and those who say it doesn't. If someone wants to use
real world magical theory in Shadowrun my answer is "which one"?

I think that Shadowrun's magic system has it's basic foundation in some
real-world magical theory, but it is also a fantasy game magic system. I
believe in magic, but I don't believe real magicians can throw fireballs at
each other (and neither does Paul Hume, AFAIK). That's a fictional thing.
Part of the trouble with using any part of the real world (magic theory,
computer science, etc.) in a game is sooner or later someone is going to say
"that's not how it works!" The old science-fiction writer's adage is that
INTERNAL CONSISTENCY is the most important thing. I don't honestly care if
Shadowrun properly reflects how real Witches, Hermetics, shamans or whatever
believe magic works. My goal is to create a consistent, playable and FUN
magic system for the game. If a piece of real world magic theory serves that
goal, then cool. If it doesn't then I'm going to favor fun and playability
every time.

Saying Shadowrun should be bound by how someone believes magic works in the
real world is like saying In Nomine should be bound by what's in the Bible
(another argument on Usenet of late). Realistic and accurate, perhaps, but
not nearly so much fun. So please, don't defend your arguements to me for or
against something in the Shadowrun magic system with "well, in REAL magic..."
it just doesn't wash.
<personal rant: OFF>

That said, the basic question being debated is: "how does astral space work?"
specifically, what is the aura and how can it be modified? Unfortunately, for
the moment, that's a question that is (obviously) somewhat unclear in the
existing Shadowrun rules.

How we choose to define the aura in SR3 will help to decide some of these
questions. For example, if we define the aura as the halo of "light"
surrounding something in astral space, seperate from the "astral body"
itself, then changes to the aura do not necessarily affect the actual
appearance of the astral body. In this case, you can change the INFORMATION
your aura gives off, but not your "astral appearance." So, you always look
like the astral form of a human (or whatever) but you can appear mundane,
magical, initiate, cybered or not, ill or in good health, and whatever
emotional state you want, but you cannot (for example) appear to be an elf or
a wendigo (you could appear to be a vampire--a human with HMHVV--however).

OTOH, if we define the aura as "the astral form and all the information it
projects." Then perhaps Masking can alter an astral form's entire appearance.
In this case, the astral form of an initiate has pseudo "shape-shifting"
abilities on the astral, at least where appearance is concerned (whether or
not the astral form actually changes shape is another kettle of fish
entirely).

Does the aura change under the effects of something like a shapechange
spells? The honest answer is I don't know for sure. The rules aren't terribly
clear on that matter. I would tend to say not. Since "everything displays its
true form in astral space" I would think you would see the true form of the
shapeshifted or transformed subject. But it all depends on how things like
the aura and Masking are defined. Things are in flux right now, so all I can
do is interpret the SR2 rules and give you vague ideas that have been bandied
around for SR3. The goal of SR3 is to more clearly define (and in some cases
re-define) existing terminology to make it clear, playable and (most
importantly) FUN.

When more progress is made, I'll try and share the new information as I can.

Take care and have a happy New Year,
Steve K.
Message no. 2
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:30:22 +0100
>My simple answer is: it doesn't. Before everyone jumps on me let me say that
>I both believe in and practice magic myself (as those of you who read the
>interview of Fro's Shadowrun Supplimental know). I'm a pagan. I believe magic
>is real. I have dozens of books on magical theory from Crowley to Carroll to
>Starhawk. I also know that much of the original Shadowrun magi system is
>based on Paul Hume's personal experiences with magic. (Paul is a practicing
>mage in the Thelemic tradition and an initiate of the Ordo Templi
>Orientalis).

AH AH AH AH AH AH !!!! This was a joke, doesn't it ??? :)

>That said, the basic question being debated is: "how does astral space
work?"
>specifically, what is the aura and how can it be modified? Unfortunately, for
>the moment, that's a question that is (obviously) somewhat unclear in the
>existing Shadowrun rules.

Ok.

>How we choose to define the aura in SR3 will help to decide some of these
>questions. For example, if we define the aura as the halo of "light"
>surrounding something in astral space, seperate from the "astral body"
>itself, then changes to the aura do not necessarily affect the actual
>appearance of the astral body. In this case, you can change the INFORMATION
>your aura gives off, but not your "astral appearance." So, you always look
>like the astral form of a human (or whatever) but you can appear mundane,
>magical, initiate, cybered or not, ill or in good health, and whatever
>emotional state you want, but you cannot (for example) appear to be an elf or
>a wendigo (you could appear to be a vampire--a human with HMHVV--however).

I really really don't like. Aura different from astral appearance ??? Aura
would be a halo of light ??? From what would come this light ? If it comes
from astral body, it's almost the same as astral body. If not... Well, I
don't know from what... it's less clear than before in this case.

>OTOH, if we define the aura as "the astral form and all the information it
>projects." Then perhaps Masking can alter an astral form's entire appearance.
>In this case, the astral form of an initiate has pseudo "shape-shifting"
>abilities on the astral, at least where appearance is concerned (whether or
>not the astral form actually changes shape is another kettle of fish
>entirely).

I prefer this one and I don't see why could masking enable you to change
your astral form. You can change the awakened part of your soul but that's
all and it's good like this. Just think about a mage appearing like a great
dragon in face of a great dragon appearing like a mouse and you will agree
with me.

>Does the aura change under the effects of something like a shapechange
>spells? The honest answer is I don't know for sure. The rules aren't terribly
>clear on that matter. I would tend to say not. Since "everything displays its
>true form in astral space" I would think you would see the true form of the
>shapeshifted or transformed subject. But it all depends on how things like
>the aura and Masking are defined.

Again, I don't see why it would... If a shapeshifter in human still has its
original appearance, I don't why a mage wouldn't.

>Things are in flux right now, so all I can
>do is interpret the SR2 rules and give you vague ideas that have been bandied
>around for SR3. The goal of SR3 is to more clearly define (and in some cases
>re-define) existing terminology to make it clear, playable and (most
>importantly) FUN.
>When more progress is made, I'll try and share the new information as I can.

Cooool. But please, don't use the first statement! :)

>Take care and have a happy New Year,
>Steve K.

Thank you. You too.


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
Message no. 3
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:11:09 -0800
Steve Kenson wrote:

> <personal rant: ON>
> <personal rant: OFF>

Damn, that was well said! I hertily agree with you, Steve.

> How we choose to define the aura in SR3 will help to decide some of these
> questions. For example, if we define the aura as the halo of "light"
> surrounding something in astral space, seperate from the "astral body"
> itself, then changes to the aura do not necessarily affect the actual
> appearance of the astral body. In this case, you can change the INFORMATION
> your aura gives off, but not your "astral appearance." So, you always look
> like the astral form of a human (or whatever) but you can appear mundane,
> magical, initiate, cybered or not, ill or in good health, and whatever
> emotional state you want, but you cannot (for example) appear to be an elf or
> a wendigo (you could appear to be a vampire--a human with HMHVV--however).

The biggest flaw in this is that *everything* is information (sounds
like a cyberpunk motto, doesn't it?)
Whether you're sick, happy, magically active, human -- it's all data.
You could, I suppose, suggest a "hierarchy of data" -- a skill web for
the Astral plane? -- with some details more able to be played with than
others, and perhaps some (whether explicitly stated to be, or made so by
target numbers) unchangeable.

So, it's easy to "mask" whether you're happy or sad, or any other
emotional state; a bit harder to mask whether you're magically active
(and the higher an Initiate you are, the harder it should be, imho),
while much harder to hard what race you are, and nigh-impossible to mask
whether you're alive or not.

> OTOH, if we define the aura as "the astral form and all the information it
> projects." Then perhaps Masking can alter an astral form's entire appearance.
> In this case, the astral form of an initiate has pseudo "shape-shifting"
> abilities on the astral, at least where appearance is concerned (whether or
> not the astral form actually changes shape is another kettle of fish
> entirely).

I'll have to write up my viewpoint on the workings of the Astral plane
someday. It's a very interesting third alternative..

> Does the aura change under the effects of something like a shapechange
> spells? The honest answer is I don't know for sure. The rules aren't terribly
> clear on that matter. I would tend to say not. Since "everything displays its
> true form in astral space" I would think you would see the true form of the
> shapeshifted or transformed subject.

I've always been pretty sure that an Aura isn't directly affected by the
spells: like invisibility (which appears in the astral as a spell
clinging to the aura of the individual), you'd also see the true form
with a transformation spell attached.

> But it all depends on how things like
> the aura and Masking are defined. Things are in flux right now, so all I can
> do is interpret the SR2 rules and give you vague ideas that have been bandied
> around for SR3. The goal of SR3 is to more clearly define (and in some cases
> re-define) existing terminology to make it clear, playable and (most
> importantly) FUN.

> When more progress is made, I'll try and share the new information as I can.

> Take care and have a happy New Year,
> Steve K.

Don't forget the party hats (and the champagne).


-Mb
Message no. 4
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:52:19 -0600
On 12/30/97 10:52:18 you wrote:
>
>[much discussion about auras and the Masking adept snipped]
>
>A great deal has been bandied around about the topic of auras, astral space,
>etc. As Ereskanti pointed out, it is without a doubt the most confusing
>aspect of SR magic. I'm not going to sole it here and now (sorry, folks) but
>it is an issue for SR3 and I wanted to comment on a few things.

{SNIP}

>
>
>When more progress is made, I'll try and share the new information as I can.
>
Thanx for your input, Steve, always appreciated. Looking forward to your view on Astral
and Auras
when you get it worked up.

Argent

Rabiola@**.netcom.com
Argent - Elven Fixer Extrodinaire
It was hot, the night we burned Chrome...
Message no. 5
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:20:38 EST
In a message dated 97-12-30 10:54:22 EST, TalonMail@***.com writes:

> [much discussion about auras and the Masking adept snipped]

Ah, but the retrievers are out and hunting... ;)

> A great deal has been bandied around about the topic of auras, astral
space,
> etc. As Ereskanti pointed out, it is without a doubt the most confusing
> aspect of SR magic. I'm not going to sole it here and now (sorry, folks)
but
> it is an issue for SR3 and I wanted to comment on a few things.

I sure hope you meant "solve it" and not "sole it"....with all the
Carp flying
around, another fish isn't going to help us at all...

> <personal rant: ON>
> First off, on the subject of "real world" magic as it relates to
Shadowrun.
> My simple answer is: it doesn't. Before everyone jumps on me let me say
that
> I both believe in and practice magic myself (as those of you who read the
> interview of Fro's Shadowrun Supplimental know). I'm a pagan. I believe
> magic
> is real. I have dozens of books on magical theory from Crowley to Carroll
to
> Starhawk. I also know that much of the original Shadowrun magi system is
> based on Paul Hume's personal experiences with magic. (Paul is a practicing
> mage in the Thelemic tradition and an initiate of the Ordo Templi
> Orientalis).

Aha! I knew it, when I met the man I knew it...at least, something very
similar...

> However, Shadowrun is a GAME. It is under no constraint to conform to
> anyone's particular theories about how magic "really" works. For one
thing,
> magical theory in the real world is hardly what I would call a coherent
body
> of work. Ereskanti points out that the aura exists. That may be so, but I
> can
> point out plenty of other magicians who believe it doesn't exist, and many
> more who agree it exists but don't agree about what it is and what it does.

And those "real world" magicians that claim it doesn't are also the most known
for the problems and hyposthesis constrictions that have caused real problems,
including themetic arguments. In a way, the discussion (and it is a
discussion, though a debated one) we are having here is occurring in much the
same way.

> I
> can likewise point out magicians who believe the astral plane (or something
> much like it) exists and those who say it doesn't. If someone wants to use
> real world magical theory in Shadowrun my answer is "which one"?

How about the consensium's POV? You know what I mean. I am NOT talking about
making SR into a "real world magicians' forum". Lord help us all for that to
never occur. What I am saying is that certain "compromises" should be
considered, and considered heavily.

> I think that Shadowrun's magic system has it's basic foundation in some
> real-world magical theory, but it is also a fantasy game magic system. I
> believe in magic, but I don't believe real magicians can throw fireballs at
> each other (and neither does Paul Hume, AFAIK). That's a fictional thing.

No Comment ....................... (ah, come on, it's a Joke!!!!)

> Part of the trouble with using any part of the real world (magic theory,
> computer science, etc.) in a game is sooner or later someone is going to
say
> "that's not how it works!" The old science-fiction writer's adage is that
> INTERNAL CONSISTENCY is the most important thing. I don't honestly care if
> Shadowrun properly reflects how real Witches, Hermetics, shamans or
whatever
> believe magic works. My goal is to create a consistent, playable and FUN
> magic system for the game. If a piece of real world magic theory serves
that
> goal, then cool. If it doesn't then I'm going to favor fun and playability
> every time.

Fun and Playability for all or for whom? That difference is what counts the
most. I very recently re-discovered what that means. If a GM sacrifices the
enjoyment of the "game group majority" to "hold up the entertaining value
for
the minority or the one", then a severe transgression has occurred. I did
that recently, and caught myself. My group wishes for me to come back now and
continue being one of the two GM's for the group here. The "one" I spoke of,
well, that situation is gone...

> Saying Shadowrun should be bound by how someone believes magic works in the
> real world is like saying In Nomine should be bound by what's in the Bible
> (another argument on Usenet of late). Realistic and accurate, perhaps, but
> not nearly so much fun. So please, don't defend your arguements to me for
or
> against something in the Shadowrun magic system with "well, in REAL
magic..."

I like that comparison, what is funny is how many people believe that....

> it just doesn't wash.

No, it "White-Washes" (you figure it out)

> <personal rant: OFF>

That's fine....I was hoping you'd finally respond like this actually Steve.
It was time to do so, and you know it as well as I do.

> That said, the basic question being debated is: "how does astral space
work?"

Sort of, but not so broad a question...more like "How does one define
"Aura"
and the limitations of "Aura" in Shadowrun terminology."

> specifically, what is the aura and how can it be modified? Unfortunately,
> for
> the moment, that's a question that is (obviously) somewhat unclear in the
> existing Shadowrun rules.

Yes...okay, so I jumped the gun just now...so sue me....

> How we choose to define the aura in SR3 will help to decide some of these
> questions. For example, if we define the aura as the halo of "light"
> surrounding something in astral space, seperate from the "astral body"
> itself, then changes to the aura do not necessarily affect the actual
> appearance of the astral body. In this case, you can change the INFORMATION
> your aura gives off, but not your "astral appearance." So, you always look
> like the astral form of a human (or whatever) but you can appear mundane,
> magical, initiate, cybered or not, ill or in good health, and whatever
> emotional state you want, but you cannot (for example) appear to be an elf
> or
> a wendigo (you could appear to be a vampire--a human with HMHVV--however).

What you are describing here sounds a lot like the "Perceptive Aura", that
which is seen directly upon the etheric mediums and is not necessarily
reflective of what is held within one's "deeper" psychological or emotional
structure. And NO, I am NOT using "real world" mechanics to describe that. I
am using material from the book actually, I am merely restating the definition
in other words. My interpretation as it were.

> OTOH, if we define the aura as "the astral form and all the information it
> projects." Then perhaps Masking can alter an astral form's entire
appearance.

Which is actually how you, and others, have been defining Aura up to this
point in time. Perhaps the term "True Aura" might be better, or even "True
Pattern", but that is delving into larger Metaplanar Theories....(and some ED
crossovers, which I am trying to avoid actually)

> In this case, the astral form of an initiate has pseudo "shape-shifting"
> abilities on the astral, at least where appearance is concerned (whether or
> not the astral form actually changes shape is another kettle of fish
> entirely).

You are sort of mixing things backwards here, or I am, one of the two. Damn
it Steve, you live too far away for a good game mechanics debate over lunch
too...

> Does the aura change under the effects of something like a shapechange
> spells? The honest answer is I don't know for sure. The rules aren't
> terribly
> clear on that matter. I would tend to say not. Since "everything displays
> its
> true form in astral space" I would think you would see the true form of the
> shapeshifted or transformed subject.

I agree with you, and Justin as well, the words are just not being adhered
too. Nothing is "Automatic" to use the book terminology in viewing the Astral
Medium or those things found within it's pervue. It requires an Astral
Perception test to see anything AND everything within the Astral. And as long
as that is true, then the "perceptions of others" is subject to manipulation
with one means or another. What I was saying earlier, hopefully I clarified
as well. While under the influence of a Transform or Shapechange, yes, you
can see the "true form" of the changed being but only if you make the Astral
Perception test to do so, which is the Force of the spell the being is under
the influence of.

> But it all depends on how things like
> the aura and Masking are defined. Things are in flux right now, so all I
can
> do is interpret the SR2 rules and give you vague ideas that have been
> bandied
> around for SR3. The goal of SR3 is to more clearly define (and in some
cases
> re-define) existing terminology to make it clear, playable and (most
> importantly) FUN.

I have a sad, but honest, opinion that "redefinition" is what is needed most.
I can make anything work, within my game, yes. I can also probably make
anything work within any other game for that matter and NOT destroy the game
balance. Change the game flavor, yes, that will happen.

The "Flux" that you are mentioning is the annoying part, IMHO. I believe that
too many previous SR players simply don't want to go beyond the level of game
play that SR has more or less maintained for years. Cyberpirates changed that
somewhat. Every new Awakenings/Grimoire changes it as well. Hell, the
biggest impact is probably Rigger 2 as far as sourcebooks go.

As far as "Game Background", well the death of Dunkelzahn wins hands (and
feet, and claws and wings) down....

> When more progress is made, I'll try and share the new information as I
can.

Please do so, many of us will constantly await with baited breath.

> Take care and have a happy New Year,
> Steve K.

You too....
-Keith
Message no. 6
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:26:52 EST
In a message dated 97-12-30 11:28:13 EST, wgallas@*****.FR writes:

> AH AH AH AH AH AH !!!! This was a joke, doesn't it ??? :)

No Cobra, it was not...

> >How we choose to define the aura in SR3 will help to decide some of these
> >questions. For example, if we define the aura as the halo of "light"
> >surrounding something in astral space, seperate from the "astral body"
> >itself, then changes to the aura do not necessarily affect the actual
> >appearance of the astral body. In this case, you can change the
INFORMATION
> >your aura gives off, but not your "astral appearance." So, you always
look
> >like the astral form of a human (or whatever) but you can appear mundane,
> >magical, initiate, cybered or not, ill or in good health, and whatever
> >emotional state you want, but you cannot (for example) appear to be an elf
> or
> >a wendigo (you could appear to be a vampire--a human with HMHVV--however).
>
> I really really don't like. Aura different from astral appearance ??? Aura
> would be a halo of light ??? From what would come this light ? If it comes
> from astral body, it's almost the same as astral body. If not... Well, I
> don't know from what... it's less clear than before in this case.

Believe it or not, you answer your own questions in your next replying
paragraph...

> >OTOH, if we define the aura as "the astral form and all the information it
> >projects." Then perhaps Masking can alter an astral form's entire
> appearance.
> >In this case, the astral form of an initiate has pseudo
"shape-shifting"
> >abilities on the astral, at least where appearance is concerned (whether
or
> >not the astral form actually changes shape is another kettle of fish
> >entirely).
>
> I prefer this one and I don't see why could masking enable you to change
> your astral form. You can change the awakened part of your soul but that's
> all and it's good like this. Just think about a mage appearing like a great
> dragon in face of a great dragon appearing like a mouse and you will agree
> with me.

Actually, no I don't agree (but that ain't a problem either). I see the sheer
humor in the situation. Especially if both the dragon and the mage (in this
case the GM and the player) decide to have more fun with it. Said dragon goes
around continuing to be a mouse that is "indestructable" and the mage goes
around "trying to be what it isn't". The truth will come out in the end, if
it doesn't, then it will get -REALLY- weird.

And by the way, in most definitions, the "Aura" is a reflection of the Soul or
the "Spiritual Body", which is reflecting the "light" shed from the
Astral
Mediums back into the astral. The more dense/intense/powerful the reflection,
the more of an impression is left, the better the surface exists as to reflect
the energy back into the Astral. Charisma sort of, but even that is
simplifying things.

> Again, I don't see why it would... If a shapeshifter in human still has its
> original appearance, I don't why a mage wouldn't.

Please see my other reply to Steve's post for this....

> Cooool. But please, don't use the first statement! :)

And as I suggested some time ago now (this morning seems so long ago to me),
compromise is necessary. A blending of the two would probably work
beautifully.

> Thank you. You too.
> Cobra.

And of course to you as well....and everyone for that matter....
-K
Message no. 7
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 03:05:34 +0000
On 30 Dec 97, Steve Kenson disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

<snip>
> How we choose to define the aura in SR3 will help to decide some of
> these questions. For example, if we define the aura as the halo of
> "light" surrounding something in astral space, seperate from the
> "astral body" itself, then changes to the aura do not necessarily
> affect the actual appearance of the astral body. In this case, you
> can change the INFORMATION your aura gives off, but not your "astral
> appearance." So, you always look like the astral form of a human (or
> whatever) but you can appear mundane, magical, initiate, cybered or
> not, ill or in good health, and whatever emotional state you want,
> but you cannot (for example) appear to be an elf or a wendigo (you
> could appear to be a vampire--a human with HMHVV--however).

Well, I'm personally inclined towards this version. Why? Well, I'd
like to see internal compability between SR and ED, and when on our
ED session a question was raised "if somebody's blind and using
astral sight, can he walk around the forest" I answered automatically
"yes", just by using the SR Astral rules... <grin>

Anyway, I see it that way: Everything has Astral Imprint (to use ED
terminology), be it a chair, carp, woodchuck, human, wall or
genegineered ivy (<grin>) used against astral penetration. Anyway,
the Imprint (aka Astral Body) is just a reflection of physical shape
of the thingy in question, though there are two possible kinds of
imprint: living (thus not passable) and non-living (passable, e.g.
walls).
As for Aura, it is treated a bit like the Pattern from ED. That is,
it's a piece of info attached to the astral body (Imprint,
whatever)... Anyway, assensing the pattern is difficult, but lots of
successes (and Aura Reading skill, which IMC adds to Int/Per) allow
to find out detailed information by looking at the core Pattern
itself (or so-called "Astral blueprint"). Anyway, some info may be
gathered without checking the pattern out, like if the assensee
(<grin>) in question is magically active (it looks the same as Adepts
in ED - they are kinda "covered" in a cloud of swirling astral energy
that shows they are using the astral energy... And in case of
initates, they can suppress that...), has cyberware etc.

But more detailed info requres checking out the Pattern in question.

(All is IMAVO, of course. Feel free to flame me, it's a bit cold in
here anyway. <grin>)


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Star Wars fan and Amber junkie; FIAWOL; WTF TKD TOO;
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
HEY! The taglines are down here!
Message no. 8
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:22:57 -0700
At 17:30 30/12/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>My simple answer is: it doesn't. Before everyone jumps on me let me say that
>>I both believe in and practice magic myself (as those of you who read the
>>interview of Fro's Shadowrun Supplimental know). I'm a pagan. I believe
magic
>>is real. I have dozens of books on magical theory from Crowley to Carroll to
>>Starhawk. I also know that much of the original Shadowrun magi system is
>>based on Paul Hume's personal experiences with magic. (Paul is a practicing
>>mage in the Thelemic tradition and an initiate of the Ordo Templi
>>Orientalis).
>
>AH AH AH AH AH AH !!!! This was a joke, doesn't it ??? :)

ERmm.. no, it isn't..

-Adam J

-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ AdamJ@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
The Shadowrun Archive Co-Maintainer: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun
Message no. 9
From: Kristling Ravenwing <kravenwing@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:49:11 -0500
--loud cheers to Steeves personal rant from a shaman. Maybe sometime I'll
tell you why I, as a person, wouldn't fit in the SR2 magic system.
Kristling (the Weird) Ravenwing, Cyber Shaman
"It's a kind of magic."
Webpage to come soon.
kraven@********.net
ICQ UIN: 6642462
Message no. 10
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:15:35 +0000
On 30 Dec 97 at 17:30, William Gallas wrote:

> >My simple answer is: it doesn't. Before everyone jumps on me let me say that
> >I both believe in and practice magic myself (as those of you who read the
> >interview of Fro's Shadowrun Supplimental know). I'm a pagan. I believe magic
> >is real. I have dozens of books on magical theory from Crowley to Carroll to
> >Starhawk. I also know that much of the original Shadowrun magi system is
> >based on Paul Hume's personal experiences with magic. (Paul is a practicing
> >mage in the Thelemic tradition and an initiate of the Ordo Templi
> >Orientalis).
>
> AH AH AH AH AH AH !!!! This was a joke, doesn't it ??? :)

Actually no. See, most people believe in some sort of magic. If it's in the
form of a god or some rituals or 'life' itself doesn't really matter.
Personally, all I believe in is science, but all the christians out there
have quite a lot of magic in their religion . Anyway, next time you laugh
about something regarding religion of some kind, think about it first. You
might be laughing about yourself. (Me, I also laughed about the statement,
but that's because a of a special encounter with the OTO in a SR-game.)
BTW, now I know why we have all this astral-stuff....:)


Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 11
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:11:11 -0600
Steve Kenson wrote:

> I think that Shadowrun's magic system has it's basic foundation in some
> real-world magical theory, but it is also a fantasy game magic system. I
> believe in magic, but I don't believe real magicians can throw fireballs at
> each other (and neither does Paul Hume, AFAIK). That's a fictional thing.
> Part of the trouble with using any part of the real world (magic theory,
> computer science, etc.) in a game is sooner or later someone is going to say
> "that's not how it works!" The old science-fiction writer's adage is that
> INTERNAL CONSISTENCY is the most important thing. I don't honestly care if
> Shadowrun properly reflects how real Witches, Hermetics, shamans or whatever
> believe magic works. My goal is to create a consistent, playable and FUN
> magic system for the game. If a piece of real world magic theory serves that
> goal, then cool. If it doesn't then I'm going to favor fun and playability
> every time.

Good to hear. [Big_Sigh_Of_Relief]. Personally I think even magic in
shadowrun functions somewhat like gravity. Sure, we understand the
basic principles and we can see the cause-effect relationship, but noone
can really explain why it happens that way, just that it does.

> OTOH, if we define the aura as "the astral form and all the information it
> projects." Then perhaps Masking can alter an astral form's entire appearance.
> In this case, the astral form of an initiate has pseudo "shape-shifting"
> abilities on the astral, at least where appearance is concerned (whether or
> not the astral form actually changes shape is another kettle of fish
> entirely).

Personally I've always adhered to the theory that one's astral aura is
defined by one's perception of self. I'm speaking entirely of magic in
SR, not any "real world" magic or practice thereof, as I am not a
practitioner of such. The perception of self is as much a subconcious
as a concious image, and as such cannot be easily changed. Speaking
from strictly a game system standpoint, I would prefer that masking not
be able to change the aura of an individual to appear to be something
else. Astral space is a medium in which the true self is important, not
the outer appearance. You can change your shape, but not your basic
nature.


Digger
Message no. 12
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 10:10:29 -0600
That being said, I like the concept, but it'll need refining before I'd
consider playing with it.

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 10:10:29 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On 12/31/97 12:11:11 you wrote:
>
>Steve Kenson wrote:
>
>> I think that Shadowrun's magic system has it's basic foundation in some
>> real-world magical theory, but it is also a fantasy game magic system. I
>> believe in magic, but I don't believe real magicians can throw fireballs at
>> each other (and neither does Paul Hume, AFAIK). That's a fictional thing.
>> Part of the trouble with using any part of the real world (magic theory,
>> computer science, etc.) in a game is sooner or later someone is going to say
>> "that's not how it works!" The old science-fiction writer's adage is
that
>> INTERNAL CONSISTENCY is the most important thing. I don't honestly care if
>> Shadowrun properly reflects how real Witches, Hermetics, shamans or whatever
>> believe magic works. My goal is to create a consistent, playable and FUN
>> magic system for the game. If a piece of real world magic theory serves that
>> goal, then cool. If it doesn't then I'm going to favor fun and playability
>> every time.
>
>
> Personally I've always adhered to the theory that one's astral aura is
>defined by one's perception of self. I'm speaking entirely of magic in
>SR, not any "real world" magic or practice thereof, as I am not a
>practitioner of such. The perception of self is as much a sub
Message no. 13
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 14:53:09 -0600
>> <snip>
>> > > What about combat magic?
>> >
>> > Comabt magic is nasty, granted. You have no armor to resist, so you
take the damage, nomatter what. Then again, drain is tougher...
>>

Wait a minute- Under the "stock" magic rules, If I roll more dice with
my resisting attribute than the mage did on the spellcasting test, the
spell does NOTHING to me. Now, your spellcasting TN for physical spells
is still body, but I get NO resistance?

BUT

If the spell is stun, i get to resist with Body OR Willpower? What's
the point of Mana combat spells (OHH, 1 less drain level <wanking
noise>)

P
Message no. 14
From: Ashlocke <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:35:58 -0005
Well, I don't. First, I only give 'em KP dice when they get over 10
karma at one go (hmmm... good thing Ivy's not around <grin>), so I've
got no problem with big KPs.

Second, they may go get a pizza, but when they come back, they go
back to the old task, still using the old roll. By the same
reasoning, one could achieve any task in "between adventures" time
(roll for task, if the roll is lousy go get a pizza, roll again,
get a pizza, roll again, repeat ad nauseum till you roll that 48 TN).
This is a faulty syllogism. <grin>

Besides, for stuff "downtime", the pool doesn't refresh. That means
they've only got one pool for casting all spells, negotiating, etc.

And when casting a spell on a spell lock, using Karma Pool represents
the fact that the mage is doing it outside combat, in the safety of
his own house and has time to get it all straight, prepare himself,
channel energy extra-carefully etc. Makes sense, neh?


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Star Wars fan and Amber junkie; FIAWOL; WTF TKD TOO;
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Fer sell cheep: Micrasuft Spel chekker. Wurks grate.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:35:58 -0005
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <woneal@****.infoave.net>
From: Ashlocke <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
In-Reply-To: <971230105218_987417437@******.mx>
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On 30 Dec 97 at 10:52, Steve Kenson wrote:

> [much discussion about auras and the Masking adept snipped]
>
> A great deal has been bandied around about the topic of auras, astral
> space, etc. As Ereskanti pointed out, it is without a doubt the most
> confusing aspect of SR magic. I'm not going to sole it here and now
> (sorry, folks) but it is an issue for SR3 and I wanted to comment on a
> few things.

Maybe I'm just the oddball here (not an uncommon occurance I asure you),
but I never really found it all that confusing at all. Now VR2, that was
confusing to me.

<Snip personal beliefs, real magic, etc.>
> So please, don't defend your
> arguements to me for or against something in the Shadowrun magic system
> with "well, in REAL magic..." it just doesn't wash.

I had always considered that conclusion common sense... which reminds me
of a truism regarding it.... common sense, isn't. How things supposedly
work in the real world has little if any bearing on Shadowrun. As Steve
so eloquently pointed out, it's a game folks, don't forget that. I once
tried to explain to another gamer that SR magic followed certain
principles and laws inherit to the game system, then spent several
frustrating hours trying to explain just what those "laws & principles of
magical theory" were. That's what is really in queation here, what are
the SR's laws of metaphysics?

>
> That said, the basic question being debated is: "how does astral space
> work?" specifically, what is the aura and how can it be modified?
> Unfortunately, for the moment, that's a question that is (obviously)
> somewhat unclear in the existing Shadowrun rules.

Hmmm... I'm tempted to try and answer that here. Personally I've always
had a fairly clear idea of it. I'm not sure I could put it succintly, not
the entire explanation anyway. If asked, I'll do my level best to make a
more lengthy and thorough explanation, but here's the short version.
The aura is an astral template. It is a reflection of everything that
you are and have been... the sum total of everything you have ever
experienced is reflected there. It shows you truest self, not just
whether you are human or a troll... male or female, old or young, sick or
healthy... but the reflection of your moods, your feelings, your deeds and
past. Every "sin" you've commited, every kindness, every lie or truth
you've spoken. It's all there. It changes as you change, and it's
incredibly complex, a shifting pattern of colors and shapes that form the
tapestry of who you are.
Masking then, is the art of "retouching" that aura to conceal certain
facts. Like retouching a photograph to hide a blemish. Small changes are
easy, massive changes require a great deal of effort. Under the current
rules there is a limit on what can be done. If I were rewriting these
rules I might make it possible to alter virtually any aspect of the aura.
Afterall, information about your race is just that, information. I would
therefore say that an initiate can attempt to mask a specific elements of
their aura... their choice as to which. The more elements they attempt to
mask,the higher the target number. Also, some elements are very
fundamental, like race... and should incurr an extra penalty to attempt to
mask. Thus, if I were to rewrite the rules, an initiate attempting to
appear as another race, concealing their magical ability entirely, and
concealing any lies they might tell would be hiding three elements of
their aura. I'd add a penalty for concealing race because it's one of
those basic things inherit to their nature (and thus correspondingly
harder to mask), I'd also add a penalty for hiding the magical ability
completely, since that too would be very difficult (as opposed to
appearing as simply a non-initiate, which would be less of a change). I
might also allow the initiate to subtract their grade from the target
number, to reflect their increasing skill as they progress. But that's
just how I'd do it if I were rewriting the rules, which I'm not. Food for
thought though.

>
> How we choose to define the aura in SR3 will help to decide some of these
> questions. For example, if we define the aura as the halo of "light"
> surrounding something in astral space, seperate from the "astral body"
> itself, then changes to the aura do not necessarily affect the actual
> appearance of the astral body. In this case, you can change the
> INFORMATION your aura gives off, but not your "astral appearance." So,
> you always look like the astral form of a human (or whatever) but you can
> appear mundane, magical, initiate, cybered or not, ill or in good health,
> and whatever emotional state you want, but you cannot (for example)
> appear to be an elf or a wendigo (you could appear to be a vampire--a
> human with HMHVV--however).

Interesting points. I always understood the astral body to be the
essence/consciousness projected. It too would carry the aura with it, but
the physical body would also retain it. In short, the aura and the astral
body are two seperate concepts. And thus, the astral body has an aura
which in turn can be read or masked. Hence masking the aura does not
mask, hide or conceal the astral body.

>
> OTOH, if we define the aura as "the astral form and all the information
> it projects." Then perhaps Masking can alter an astral form's entire
> appearance. In this case, the astral form of an initiate has pseudo
> "shape-shifting" abilities on the astral, at least where appearance is
> concerned (whether or not the astral form actually changes shape is
> another kettle of fish entirely).

I don't think this could be done with Masking, but I wouldn't mind seeing
other metamagic abilities that do deal with altering the appearance of the
astral body, as well as concealing it totally (vis viz Invisibility).
Likewise an Astral concentration of the Stealth skill would be useful
(afterall, buildings are still opaque in the astral, so why then couldn't
you use stealth there?)

>
> Does the aura change under the effects of something like a shapechange
> spells? The honest answer is I don't know for sure. The rules aren't

I think the rule
Message no. 15
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:56:52 EST
> I was wondering if you guys would mind me using some of your aliases and
> shadowtk character names in a non- sr, cyber- punk story?
> >>>>>[Sure I get a little bit afraid... sometimes.
> "It's a kind of magic."
>
Sure I guess, it'll just make people wonder more...
-K
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:51:30 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: More Clues (Re: Inherent Magical Response)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 98-01-01 15:45:18 EST, t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE
writes:

> > Not exactly...the PAD was using a foci, and he was a member of the team,
> karma
> > team pool and all (we -DO- find those useful)....it was just interesting
> on
> > the role playing aspect and it's caused Binder to go do heavy soul
> searching
> > ("why would I want to harm my friends??? What caused that power to react
> that
> > way??? That ability is mine, it's a -part- of me...why would I let that
> > happen??? How much is really within that I haven't found????)
>
> That's a bit different from what Mike told me... <g>
>
Yes, well, Mike and I don't exchange -all- of our information... ;) But try
and think of that POV for the character...imagine if that approach on Magical
Edges were taken (which is what they are, even by Steve Kensons' definitions)
and such a situation occurred. The Magic, which is tied somehow to one's
"essence" or "magic" decides to protect itself, the ultimate in
"subconscious
response mechanisms" for SR.

-K
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:56:52 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
Content-type: text
Message no. 16
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:29:36 +0000
-IF- SR's magic is to be clarified, exemplified, and admired, then either the
ENTIRE system is going to have to be reworked to remove such (which would
destroy the current "flavor" of SR IMHO) or it will have to be carried forward
in some form as it currently stands (which is obviously going to one day cause
things to fall apart for the magic system...especially if what I've heard is
coming concerning "the Comet" is true. And that is just the beginning...

Come on folks, SR is moving into 59-60...Halley's is more than a little speck
again...

-K
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:58:57 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Wooosh!!! Over the Head--- (Re: happy new year!)
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In a message dated 98-01-01 16:36:24 EST, krap@********.PSE.PL writes:

> to all shadowrunners!
>
> 1284
>
As the newly renovated subject line says....

What did I miss?
-K
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:29:36 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <m009ig02@*****.mcmail.com>
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
In-Reply-To: <01IRVD2EVFNW9HLPUT@*******.Net>
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On Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:35:58 -0005 Ashlocke did share with us :

> On 30 Dec 97 at 10:52, Steve Kenson wrote:
>
> > [much discussion about auras and the Masking adept snipped]
> >
> > A great deal has been bandied around about the topic of auras, astral
> > space, etc. As Ereskanti pointed out, it is without a doubt the most
> > confusing aspect of SR magic. I'm not going to sole it here and now
> > (sorry, folks) but it is an issue for SR3 and I wanted to comment on a
> > few things.

[Huge snip of good material for brevities sake]

Nicely put. I agree (and the rules also give the impression) that
the astral body and the aura are two seperate things. But from some
parts of your post you give the impression that the two could be
independant (I apologise if I'm wrong). That I disagree with.

The way I prefer to think of it is that the aura is effectively the
colours that are given of in astral and the astral body is the shape.

In grimoire masking you gain the ability to suppress one of the
colour sources in your aura, the prescence of mana, and nothing else.
The companion bit about shapeshifters allows you to either make your
astral body conform more tightly with your physical body OR it makes
the aura radiate from the outline of the physical body.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.