Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Richard Bukowski <bukowski@**.BERKELEY.EDU>
Subject: Autofire and recoil rules
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 17:37:13 -0800
I've been following this thread about how to more realistically handle
the burst/autofire/recoil problem (that is, the all-or-nothing system
which makes it less likely to hit a target the more rounds are fired).
Mere moments ago I came up with the following, based on the
one-success-means-one-hit suggestions that have been going by, and I
was wondering what y'all would think of it...

When firing more than one round in a complex action, each round past
the first is given an additional +1 modifier. This seems reasonable,
since it represents the hard-to-control walk of the barrel after
ejecting high-speed bits of lead. The flaw is in the fact that the
_entire_ modifier for the _last_ bullet is applied to the target
number for the shot, making _any_ success at all less likely. I
propose the following:

A number of bullets, 1...n (yes, I'm a computer scientist) are fired
this complex action. Say you have r points of recoil compensation on
the rifle. The bullets are assigned target number modifiers on a
bullet-by-bullet basis: the first r+1 bullets get a value of 0, and
subsequent bullets accumulate modifier at 1 per bullet. So, for
example, if you are firing 10 bullets in the round with 3 points of
comp, the bullets get 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

When you fire a burst at the target, you are firing bullets j through
k at the target, with modifiers m_j through m_k. Determine the base
target number for the target as normal, determine how many dice you're
rolling, and roll your dice. Now, you get to assign die results to
individual bullets; the target number to make a bullet a success is
the base number plus the modifier for that particular bullet.

Once the number of bullets that hit has been determined, staging of
the wound inflicted is by the number of hits; for each hit after the
first, +1 power; for each 3 hits, +1 damage step.

So, for example, I decide to fire my second 3-bullet burst at a target
with a firearms skill of 6, from a rifle with 1 point of comp. These
bullets are bullets 4 through 6 in the current round, so they get
modifiers of 2, 3, and 4 (due to the recoil comp). My target is at
close range, and I have a laser sight; base TN is 4-1 = 3. Thus, my
total target numbers for the bullets are 5, 6, and 7. I roll my
6 dice (deciding not to add any pool), getting 2,2,3,5,5,9. I assign
one 5 to the first bullet, making it a hit, and the 9 to the second
bullet, making two hits; the third bullet is a miss. With a base
damage 8M for the rifle, I do a 9M wound. If I had rolled 2,2,3,5,6,9
instead, I could have assigned a 5 to bullet 1, a 6 to bullet 2, and a
9 to bullet 3, getting all 3 hits, for a 10S wound. OTOH, if I had
rolled 2,2,3,5,5,5, I would only be able to make bullet 1 a hit, for a
base 8M wound.

This may sound/look complicated, but (like many CS algorithms) it's
actually very simple in practice, and obeys a very important principle
that the current SR system does not obey; that is, firing a burst of 5
bullets at a target instead of a burst of 4 _strictly increases_ the
expected damage done. It also, as in real life, obeys the law of
diminishing returns; the "later" bullets are far less likely to do
damage than the "earlier" bullets, due to the fact that +1's to target
numbers represent _huge_ statistical penalties when the TNs reach the
5-6 and up range.

To forestall a potential argument: "What if someone with Firearms 2
fires a SMG in burst mode? This makes it _numerically impossible_ for
them to hit with more than 2 bullets!"

I have two responses to this:

Response 1: This is _not_ a problem. Someone with Firearms 2 has
_very_ little skill, and it is unlikely that a snap shot by such a
person would do very much anyway. Furthermore, the person will still
have at least 1 or 2 combat pool dice; they can add those dice to the
attack (forfieting them for defense, but hey, they should have bought
more firearms skill!) to get the extra possibility of having the
rounds hit the target.

Response 2: An optional rule that I have been considering for a while
now, and I'd like your general opinion on this rule as well. A die
with a result greater than 6 counts as _multiple dice_, for multiples
of 6 below the actual result. So, for example, a roll of 15 on one
die counts as if it was 3 dice: one with a roll of 15, one with a 9,
and one with a 3 (multiples of 6 down from the actual result). This
corrects the "not enough dice" problem that seems to crop up in a lot
of places in SR; someone with a sufficiently small skill will be
_mathematically incapable_ of rolling a "n success" result, when there
should be a small chance of success. For example, a person with 2
dice in a social skill makes a roll on that skill, and the table says
you need 3 successes to get a certain piece of information. That
person could roll a 2,234 and a 5,385 on his two dice (unlikely, but
possible!) and still not get the piece of information. This seems
bogus to me.

So, what do you think?

Rick

Richard William Bukowski | Computer Science Department
Bukowski@**.Berkeley.EDU | University of California at Berkeley
"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh "BOB" D'lyeh Wgah'nagl Dhobbz f'htagn."
Message no. 2
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Autofire and recoil rules
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:22:29 +1000
Richard Bukowski writes:

[Great idea for recoil rules]

Sounds very good to me. Solves the problem of the "all or nothing" point very
well. The more rounds you fire, the more rounds you will have a chance to hit
with (up to a point), and you will generally be able to hit with the first
few rounds in any burst. The only problem I could see would be when you have
a less skiled person (say 2 or 3) using a very well compensated weapon, like
a minigun on a gyro mount, with gas vents on each barrel, here they would
need the base target number for each bullet, but they would only be able to
hit with around 3 (maybe 5 or 6 with Combat Pool). But I suppose this is not
too unrealistic, if they are not terribly skilled with a weapon, then they
wouldn't be able to use it effectively, even if they are ignoring recoil.
(They are a little lacking on the acquire target, aim, and what-have-you
requirements of shooting people). I wouldn't use the "I rolled 43! Don't I
get anything better for it?" rule if I used it though. If you begin using it
here, which is unnecessary, then it will all too easily filter down to all
skill rolls. If the person isn't skilled enough to do something to a high
degree of precision, then even luck won't help them. Luck will only assist
in letting them do something that is stretching their abilities (represented
by a high target number). The rule sounds great, and with a few practices it
shouldn't be too hard to integrate into the game, it isn't terribly
complicated, and doesn't require additional dice rolling or anything. What
do the rest of you think of it?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 3
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Autofire and recoil rules
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:44:02 -0800
On Wed, 15 Mar 1995, Richard Bukowski wrote:

> When firing more than one round in a complex action, each round past
> the first is given an additional +1 modifier. This seems reasonable,

This is a nice restatement of Marc Renouf's autofire system he
posted almost a year ago ....

Great minds think alike ;-)

> So, what do you think?

My players' response to this system (when we were still playing
Shadowrun, almost a year ago) was along the lines of:

"Geez ... we don't need this ... this is just other gamers trying
to make up for the lack of lethality in *their* games..."

<Evil grin>

> Rick

========================================================================
Adam Getchell "Invincibility is in oneself,
acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu vulnerability in the opponent."
http://instruction.ucdavis.edu/html/getchell.html
Message no. 4
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Autofire and recoil rules
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 17:58:51 -0500
On Thu, 16 Mar 1995, Adam Getchell wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Mar 1995, Richard Bukowski wrote:
>
> > When firing more than one round in a complex action, each round past
> > the first is given an additional +1 modifier. This seems reasonable,
>
> This is a nice restatement of Marc Renouf's autofire system he
> posted almost a year ago ....

Actually, mine are a little bit different but the idea is pretty
much the same. Allows for less than the full burst to hit.

> Great minds think alike ;-)

So do sick, demented, twisted, evil ones...


> My players' response to this system (when we were still playing
> Shadowrun, almost a year ago) was along the lines of:
>
> "Geez ... we don't need this ... this is just other gamers trying
> to make up for the lack of lethality in *their* games..."

If there's one thing my game does not lack, it's lethality ;)

Marc
Message no. 5
From: Richard Bukowski <bukowski@**.BERKELEY.EDU>
Subject: Autofire and recoil rules
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 17:31:01 -0800
Well, it seems that I am put in the unenviable position of shooting
down my own proposal... at least to a first approximation. I ran it
by one of my players, who said "Yeah, that sounds good;" then, I ran
it past another, who said, "But what about high skill? If I'm firing
a 3-round burst with a base TN of 2, what do I get for having firearms
9 instead of 3?" and I replied "Well... uhhh... <damn>."

Upon looking at my proposed system, I realized the problem. The SR
system as it stands requires both a damage code and a number of
successes to be generated by the attacker. In the normal system, the
damage code is solely determined by the number of bullets fired, and
the number of successes comes from the attack roll. In my modified
system, I suggested a way to determine the damage code by the number
of bullets _hit_ rather than the number fired, but had no provision
for a "success level" for _aiming_ the attack, represented in the
normal system by the number of successes.

My proposal to fix the situation is to use the number of successes
generated by the LOWEST target number bullet as the number of
successes for the attack. I believe this maintains the desired
properties, although I'm less sure of the distribution of expected
damage.

At a first approximation, you can make the following observations:

1. My new system is _completely_ identical to the old system in the case
of a single bullet or burst with no recoil penalty (that is, fully
compensated by recoil mods).

2. In the case of a burst with recoil mods, the old system used the
HIGHEST TN of the group of bullets instead of my system, which uses
the LOWEST TN of the group. Thus, my system will generate much more
successes; the bigger the difference between highest and lowest
(i.e. the longer the uncompensated burst), the more successes are
generated. However, my system will generally provide for a _range_ of
damage codes as a result of the burst, rather than the old system,
which _automatically_ gives you the _maximum_ effect possible in the
damage code.

I believe this observation (#2) clearly demonstrates the
"all-or-nothing" property of the old SR system that many people are
complaining about; it cranks the damage code up to the max while
making it as hard as possible to hit with that code.

So, to redo the example from my first posting:
I decide to fire my second 3-bullet burst at a target
with a firearms skill of 6, from a rifle with 1 point of comp. These
bullets are bullets 4 through 6 in the current round, so they get
modifiers of 2, 3, and 4 (due to the recoil comp). My target is at
close range, and I have a laser sight; base TN is 4-1 = 3. Thus, my
total target numbers for the bullets are 5, 6, and 7. I roll my
6 dice (deciding not to add any pool), getting 2,2,3,5,5,9. I assign
one 5 to the first bullet, making it a hit, and the 9 to the second
bullet, making two hits; the third bullet is a miss. With a base
damage 8M for the rifle, I do a 9M damage code. The number of
successes is the number of successes for the lowest bullet, which had
TN 5, so I have 3 successes. The attacker's result is 3 successes
with a 9M damage code.

If I had rolled 2,2,3,5,6,9 instead, I could have assigned a 5 to
bullet 1, a 6 to bullet 2, and a 9 to bullet 3, getting all 3 hits,
for a 10S wound. The number of successes for the lowest bullet is
still 3, so this result is 3 successes for a 10S damage code.

OTOH, if I had rolled 2,3,5,5,5,5, I would only be able to make bullet
1 a hit, for a base 8M wound. However, 4 successes on the lowest TN
of 3 gives me 4 successes on a 8M damage code.

Statistically, these changes will have the following effect:

1. Semi-auto and single shot are unaffected.

2. Burst/autofire mode will change depending on the compensation:

2a. Fully compensated bursts will, statistically, do SLIGHTLY LESS
damage in the new system than in the old. This is because the TN is
unchanged, but it is possible to get less bullets hitting, which would
lower the damage code.
2b. Uncompensated bursts will do MUCH MUCH MORE damage in the new
system than in the old. This is due to the greatly reduced TN.

3. As stated before, the damage _distribution_ for bullets changes
from a less-chance-of-more-damage distribution to a monotonically-
increasing-with-more-bullets distribution.

Okay. Now, on to a couple of new optional rules to use with these new
autofire rules:

OPTIONAL RULE 1: For modelling minigun/"super-machine-gun" weapons:

Weapons with an incredibly high fire rate merit special attention in
the autofire rules. As it says in the Lone Star book, if a gun's
cyclic rate is high enough, the barrel will not have _time_ to rise
and screw up the firers aim. Unfortunately, it gives no
general-purpose way to deal with this property (it gives the Ruger
Thunderbolt "special" recoil rules, for that gun alone. Ugh.)
With the advent of the Thunderbolt and the super-machineguns in the
FOF sourcebook, I think we need a reasonable way to represent the
effect of the high-cyclic-rate (HCR) gun in the recoil system.

I believe that the essential property to capture is the fact that,
with a HCR gun, the first _several_ bullets go where you want before
the recoil hits, rather than just the first _single_ bullet going
where you want before the recoil hits. Therefore, I propose to give a
"HCR rating" to a gun. The HCR rating is the number of bullets that
are considered a "clump" of bullets for the process of assigning
successes to bullets to get them to hit. Instead of treating each
bullet separately in the roll, you clump them together sequentially
and assign the clump a TN equal to the lowest TN bullet of the clump.
So, for example, an Ares HVAR with 3 points of recoil comp might be
assigned a HCR rating of 2. Say the HVAR fires its second burst of
the combat round; this is a 6-round burst with bullet TNs equal to
3,4,5,6,7,8. But, we don't consider it to be 6 separate rounds;
instead, it's 3 2-round "clumps" with TN 3, 5, and 7 (i.e. the 3 and 4
bullets become one clump with a TN 3, etc.) The attacker assigns
successes to clumps instead of individual bullets to determine if they
hit; if a clump hits, all bullets in it hit.

This modification will mean that many bullets will hit in the place of
one for a HCR weapon. We can model the Thunderbolt with an HCR of 3;
this gives recoil modifiers of +0 and +3 for the bursts, even with NO
recoil comp on the gun itself. These are very close to the +0 and +4
that are quoted in the book for the Thunderbolt. I don't have a feel
for the HCR ratings yet, but I'd probably give something like the
super-machineguns HCR of 2 or 3, and give the Vindicator an HCR of 4
(or, if you want to be really nasty, 5 or [diety forbid] 6, meaning a
single success at the lowest TN gives 6 bullet hits for a 13D wound).

Also, another rule should be used with HCR weapons: To "walk" autofire
from one person to another without a smartlink under normal rules
requires 1 bullet per meter. For an HCR weapon, it requires 1 clump
per meter. This represents the fact that the high cyclic rate means
that more wasted bullets are randomly ejected into the empty space
between targets!

Note that an HCR rating of 1 represents a "normal" cyclic rate.

OPTIONAL RULE 2: For allowing the attacker a tradeoff of more bullets
hitting vs. a more successful hit:

Allow "dice stacking" on an attack roll. The attacker is allowed to
combine two or more successes into a single, stacked success; this
stacked success can be used to make as many bullets hit as the bullet
TNs can be added together to add to the value of the sum of the
successes. So, for example, I fire a burst from an 8M rifle, with 3
bullets with TN's 5, 6, and 7; I roll 9 dice on my firearms skill and
get 4 5's. Under the new combat rules, I get 4 successes with an 8M
wound. Under this optional rule, I can stack 3 of those 5's together
to give me only one success, but 15 "points" of TN to allocate to
bullets. I allocate 6 to one and 7 to the other (wasting 3 points),
making both of the other bullets hit, but sacrificing 2 successes to
do it. I now have 2 successes with a 10S wound.

--------------------------
Whew. I hope this addresses the problems adequately. Anyhow, to
address some responses to the thread so far:

Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:56:14 +0100
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Recoil in SR
>What I'm looking for is a system that lets players fire large numbers of
>rounds with little chance to hit, in order to let them expend some more ammo
>than they've done over the past 2 years of SR2-ing. Some of our characters
>still have some of the ammo they bought during character generation!
>I might just switch to that maths-based system somebody else posted, though
>I haven't really read it through. It bored the hell out of me even though I
>liked what I read :)

1. Sorry you found it dry... I'll try for more exciting math in the
future. :) But really... there's not much math to it. I took great
pains to keep the one-roll-per-person-involved (one attack roll, one
defense roll) so that the amount of (game-slowing) rolling of dice
remains minimal. As far as math, it's pretty much standard target
number computation that you have to do anyhow; the only addition is
allocating dice to bullets, which is pretty easy.

2. As far as expending more ammo, if you use the second optional rule
that I included at the end (i.e. the one about giving multiple
successes per die) then there's no limit to the size of the expected
damage that you can inflict by adding bullets (that is, statistically;
practically, diminishing returns sets in pretty quickly, but there's
still a chance :)

Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:44:02 -0800
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Autofire and recoil rules
>> When firing more than one round in a complex action, each round past
>> the first is given an additional +1 modifier. This seems reasonable,
>
> This is a nice restatement of Marc Renouf's autofire system he
>posted almost a year ago ....

Hmmm... this seems unclear to me; the part of my message that you
quoted is standard rules. :) Which part of my proposal is the same?
Do you have or know where I can get Marc's ideas? I'd like to compare
them to my own.

> Great minds think alike ;-)
Of course. ;)

Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:22:29 +1000
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Autofire and recoil rules
> The only problem I could see would be when you have
>a less skiled person (say 2 or 3) using a very well compensated weapon, like
>a minigun on a gyro mount, with gas vents on each barrel, here they would
>need the base target number for each bullet, but they would only be able to
>hit with around 3 (maybe 5 or 6 with Combat Pool). But I suppose this is not
>too unrealistic, if they are not terribly skilled with a weapon, then they
>wouldn't be able to use it effectively, even if they are ignoring recoil.
>(They are a little lacking on the acquire target, aim, and what-have-you
>requirements of shooting people).

This was the basic idea of the first proposed answer to that question.
Recoil comp still helps, though, in that said person with tons of
recoil comp will most likely have all 3's for their TNs for every die
they can roll.

>I wouldn't use the "I rolled 43! Don't I
>get anything better for it?" rule if I used it though. If you begin using it
>here, which is unnecessary, then it will all too easily filter down to all
>skill rolls. If the person isn't skilled enough to do something to a high
>degree of precision, then even luck won't help them.

That was the idea, actually; to propagate it to all skill rolls.
There are many places where I think it would be useful; basically, all
places where the _number_ of successes determines how well you do,
rather than "binary" tests where the test is a success/failure result.
I have a real problem with the fact that someone with a skill of 2 in
etiquette has absolutely no chance in hell of getting the piece of
information on the chart that requires 3 successes on the etiquette
test, esp. when the TNs for that test are something pathetic like 2's.
This rule solves that; you can get 3 successes for that test by
rolling an 8 on one of your two dice and a 2 on the other. +6 TN is a
pretty stiff penalty; this represents the "probability tail" that the
person with the 2 etiquette could, in fact, get lucky (say something
"right", etc) and get the extra success, esp. when the target number
indicates that it's a really easy task anyhow.

Rick

Richard William Bukowski | Computer Science Department
Bukowski@**.Berkeley.EDU | University of California at Berkeley
"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh "BOB" D'lyeh Wgah'nagl Dhobbz f'htagn."
Message no. 6
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Autofire and recoil rules
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 20:29:05 +1000
Richard Bukowski writes:

> My proposal to fix the situation is to use the number of successes
> generated by the LOWEST target number bullet as the number of
> successes for the attack. I believe this maintains the desired
> properties, although I'm less sure of the distribution of expected
> damage.

Would it be possible to have only the successes which were not assigned to
rounds to make them hit actually assist in staging the damage? I shall make
my suggestion clearer with an example.

Say an average firer (Firearms skill 3) fires a burst from a 7M SMG at a
target at short range. Let us assume that they have a smartgun link, and
this is the first burst they have fired this action (ie base target number
2). Now, for the sake of simplicity, assume they also have a Gas Vent II, so
recoil is completely negated. Say they roll 2,4,5 which gives them three
successes. They would hit with three rounds, doing 10S. Since all their
successes were allocated to ensuring the rounds hit the target, they could
not use them to stage the damage.
Now take the exact same example, but have a firer with Firearms 9. Say he
scores 10,8,5,4,4,3,3,2,1. The 10,8,5 go towards ensuring the three rounds
hit, and the 4,4,3,3,2 do the staging of the damage. He hits with a 10S
damage code, with 5 successes.

> OPTIONAL RULE 1: For modelling minigun/"super-machine-gun" weapons:

Sounds fine to me, except I'd only give miniguns a low HCR rating, like 2,
or not even give them one. They have multiple barrels, which are spinning,
and each round must clear the barrel fully before it rotates and the next
round is fired. While this allows for high rates of fire, it doesn't mean the
rounds are "clumped" together all that much. Otherwise the rules sound fine
to me.

> OPTIONAL RULE 2: For allowing the attacker a tradeoff of more bullets
> hitting vs. a more successful hit:
>
> Allow "dice stacking" on an attack roll. The attacker is allowed to
> combine two or more successes into a single, stacked success; this
> stacked success can be used to make as many bullets hit as the bullet
> TNs can be added together to add to the value of the sum of the
> successes. So, for example, I fire a burst from an 8M rifle, with 3
> bullets with TN's 5, 6, and 7; I roll 9 dice on my firearms skill and
> get 4 5's. Under the new combat rules, I get 4 successes with an 8M
> wound. Under this optional rule, I can stack 3 of those 5's together
> to give me only one success, but 15 "points" of TN to allocate to
> bullets. I allocate 6 to one and 7 to the other (wasting 3 points),
> making both of the other bullets hit, but sacrificing 2 successes to
> do it. I now have 2 successes with a 10S wound.

I don't like the idea, because it allows the sacrifice of one success for a
tradeoff to get an extra damage level (effectively 2 successes). Let me
explain. Say I fire a three round burst with a 6L weapon, and I need 4, 5, 6
to hit. Lets say I rolled 3 4's and 2 5's as my successes. Normally (by your
rules) I'd be doing 8L with 5 successes (which is more or less 8S with 1
success). Using this optional rule, I could cash in 2 of my 4's for a single
8, and be doing 9M with 4 successes (more or less 9D). The sacrifice of one
success effectively generated 2 sucesses, since it caused an increase in the
damage category due to the burst fire rules.

> >I wouldn't use the "I rolled 43! Don't I
> >get anything better for it?" rule if I used it though. If you begin using it
> >here, which is unnecessary, then it will all too easily filter down to all
> >skill rolls. If the person isn't skilled enough to do something to a high
> >degree of precision, then even luck won't help them.
>
> That was the idea, actually; to propagate it to all skill rolls.
> There are many places where I think it would be useful; basically, all
> places where the _number_ of successes determines how well you do,
> rather than "binary" tests where the test is a success/failure result.
> I have a real problem with the fact that someone with a skill of 2 in
> etiquette has absolutely no chance in hell of getting the piece of
> information on the chart that requires 3 successes on the etiquette
> test, esp. when the TNs for that test are something pathetic like 2's.
> This rule solves that; you can get 3 successes for that test by
> rolling an 8 on one of your two dice and a 2 on the other. +6 TN is a
> pretty stiff penalty; this represents the "probability tail" that the
> person with the 2 etiquette could, in fact, get lucky (say something
> "right", etc) and get the extra success, esp. when the target number
> indicates that it's a really easy task anyhow.

But introducing this rule would mean those who roll 5 or 6 dice (or more)
would routinely achieve 1 or 2 more successes than they would have otherwise
been expected to. The rule solves the problem of low skills not being able
to achieve many successes, but it also means that someone with a high skill
will nearly always get at least one more success than he should be able to.
If you can handle every roll generating more successes than it should, then
I suppose the rule is OK. It does make someone with a high combat pool and
high firearms almost impossibly good, since they'll often get 2 or even 3
more successes than normal.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Autofire and recoil rules
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 16:05:53 +0100
>and each round must clear the barrel fully before it rotates and the next
>round is fired.

Huh? If that were the case a multi-barrel minigun would fire at the same
rate as any other weapon. Multi-barrel weapons have such high rates of fire
because you can start loading a barrel while another barrel is being
fired... Hey, that makes me thing of something: a caseless minigun. Since
there are no cartridge cases to extract from the fired barrel, you could
fire at higher rpms...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
<te huur: 1 lege regel (opschrift naar keuze), hier te bezichtigen.>
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 8
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Autofire and recoil rules
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 21:39:22 +1000
Gurth writes:

> >and each round must clear the barrel fully before it rotates and the next
> >round is fired.
>
> Huh? If that were the case a multi-barrel minigun would fire at the same
> rate as any other weapon. Multi-barrel weapons have such high rates of fire
> because you can start loading a barrel while another barrel is being
> fired... Hey, that makes me thing of something: a caseless minigun. Since
> there are no cartridge cases to extract from the fired barrel, you could
> fire at higher rpms...

Sorry, I didn't make myself entirely clear. Is it not the case with a
minigun that it only has a single firing chamber? If my conception of the
weapon is incorrect, could you please tell me. Actually, could someone with
knowledge of the things please give me a complete rundown?, before I go on
any further and make a complete goose of myself by commenting on things I
really have no knowledge of.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 9
From: Keith Johnson <jrsnyder@********.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Autofire and recoil rules
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 07:22:06 -0600
This is my first posting to any list server.
If I screw this up, Please forgive me.

>Damion Milliken writes:
>
>Gurth writes:
>
>> >and each round must clear the barrel fully before it rotates and the next
>> >round is fired.
>>
>> Huh? If that were the case a multi-barrel minigun would fire at the same
>> rate as any other weapon. Multi-barrel weapons have such high rates of fire
>> because you can start loading a barrel while another barrel is being
>> fired... Hey, that makes me thing of something: a caseless minigun. Since
>> there are no cartridge cases to extract from the fired barrel, you could
>> fire at higher rpms...
>
>Sorry, I didn't make myself entirely clear. Is it not the case with a
>minigun that it only has a single firing chamber? If my conception of the
>weapon is incorrect, could you please tell me. Actually, could someone with
>knowledge of the things please give me a complete rundown?, before I go on
>any further and make a complete goose of myself by commenting on things I
>really have no knowledge of.
>

I'm a veteran, and a gun nut. Hope that qualifies me to speak.

A mini gun is a type of gatling gun. There are a couple in service
in the military today. They have anywhere between 3 and 6 barrels
on a motor driven shaft. As with all guns, they have certain steps
they must go through to fire one round; feeding, chambering,locking,
firing,unlocking, extracting, ejecting. The reason that a minigun has
such a high rate of fire is that as the barrels rotate these steps are
done to each barrel. Only one barrel fires at a time, but the other
barrels are doing other things.

As for a caseless minigun being faster because of less steps...
That assumes that the reason for slowness is the number of steps.
It isn't. It's heat. The m61a1 vulcan 20mm cannon that is the
gun on most us planes fires at a rate of 3000 rounds a minute.
but it has to fire them in controled bursts(3 rounds I think)
because of the heat that builds up. Most of the improvements in
the minigun technology have come in the field of cryogenics. It
is this technology that cools the gun without warping the barrels.
But I do think that a caseless minigun would be better due to
lighter ammo weight. No performance improvement, but larger
ammo capacity. Remember, in Vietnam, US soldiers fired 10,000
rounds for every Vietnamese casualty. (Just some trivia for you)

The US currently also has a 5.56mm and 7.62mm miniguns. they
are mainly used on helicopters in the gun mounts. Let me tell
you, there is no greater orgasm than to hear the "brraaaaaap!" of
a helicopter's guns as they're coming to pull you out of whatever
mess the government has gotten you into.

Anyway, I hope this has helped.

Keith Johnson

"Male(n): A quaint anachronism,once useful for the protection of
females, but rendered obsolete by contemporary firepower."
Women & Guns magazine December 1991


-Well, he does have some redeeming qualities...-
-Yes, but I don't have any problems with those!-

Jessica Snyder and Andrea Keller
Discussing Keith Johnson
Message no. 10
From: Richard Bukowski <bukowski@**.BERKELEY.EDU>
Subject: Autofire and recoil rules
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 17:13:53 -0800
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 20:29:05 +1000
>From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
>Subject: Re: Autofire and recoil rules
>
>Richard Bukowski writes:
>
>> My proposal to fix the situation is to use the number of successes
>> generated by the LOWEST target number bullet as the number of
>> successes for the attack. I believe this maintains the desired
>> properties, although I'm less sure of the distribution of expected
>> damage.
>
>Would it be possible to have only the successes which were not assigned to
>rounds to make them hit actually assist in staging the damage? I shall make
>my suggestion clearer with an example.
>
[ Example trimmed ]

I'm not sure I like that idea. It becomes unclear which is more
advantageous: adding a bullet hit, or adding a success. In your
proposal, a success will either add one to the power of the attack
(possibly also adding a stage to the damage code), or add one to the
number of attacker's successes. Given a specific case, there may be a
non-obvious optimal allocation of successes to damage code
(represented by number of bullets hit) and to number of attack
successes. I don't care for such statistical ambiguity; the method I
proposed originally is mathematically and mechanically cleaner.
Besides, what TN do you use for these extra successes? Lowest bullet?
Highest bullet? What does it mean to add a success at a given level?
My original proposal also seems closer to preserving similarity with
the current system for smaller autofire bursts.

>
>> OPTIONAL RULE 1: For modelling minigun/"super-machine-gun" weapons:
>
>Sounds fine to me, except I'd only give miniguns a low HCR rating, like 2,
>or not even give them one. They have multiple barrels, which are spinning,
>and each round must clear the barrel fully before it rotates and the next
>round is fired. While this allows for high rates of fire, it doesn't mean the
>rounds are "clumped" together all that much.

That's not the point at all. Since some other people have since
described the mechanics behind high rates of fire
(specifically, Gurth and Keith Johnson [who did an excellent job of
describing why firing rates are what they are, BTW]), I won't belabor
the point here. However, the idea behind HCR is to model the fact
that, given some k seconds of "trigger hold" on a HCR weapon
where the barrel traverses a given linear distance, you get more
bullets evenly spaced into that distance over the same area than a
lower cyclic rate weapon. For example, a weapon with HCR 1 whose
barrel traversed a 3 meter distance in 3 seconds might put 1
bullet/meter spaced evenly over that arc. An HCR 2 weapon puts twice
as many bullets spaced evenly over the arc; that is, 2 bullets per
meter. So, a target one meter wide in that area will recieve _two_
bullets from the HCR 2 weapon rather than one bullet, even though the
firer had that target in his sights for _exactly_ the same amount of
time. The idea of the clumping is: since the low HCR weapon hit with
one bullet for a success, that weapon's barrel must have spent an
amount of time pointed at the target sufficient for a bullet to have
come out of the barrel during that period of time. A weapon with
twice the fire rate would have spat two bullets during that same time;
so, both bullets hit the target "for the price of one", that is, the
price of the one success that allowed the low HCR weapon to hit.
(Is this at all clear?)

In fact, I would now like to propose a minor modification of the
clumping rule that I proposed earlier. That rule had a bad effect
that I didn't like from square 1; the clumping turned a nice, smooth
function into a nasty-looking step function the way I said to do it
before. To smooth the function, I propose to "ramp up" the clumping
from 1 to the HCR rating. So, an HCR 4 weapon would have 1 bullet in
the first clump, 2 in the second, 3 in the third, and 4 for all
subsequent, with one "odd man out" clump at the end which may have
less than 4.

For example, take your basic minigun, 4 points of recoil comp, 15
round burst, HCR 5, base TN 4, base damage 7S (remember, heavy weapon
recoil means double uncompensated recoil):

Clump 1: 1 bullet, TN 4
Clump 2: 2 bullets, TN 4
Clump 3: 3 bullets, TN 4
Clump 4: 4 bullets, TN 8 (First bullet is number 7; TN + 2*2)
Clump 5: 5 bullets, TN 16 (first bullet is number 11; TN + 6*2)

For an 8-die attack roll of 1,2,3,3,4,5,7,10 we have 4 successes,
allowing us to make clumps 1 through 4 hit, for 10 bullets: 16D wound,
4 successes. Painful. Defender is unlikely to resist with more than
one success; this will be either a D/1 or D/2 result. If you use
overdamage, 11 or 12 boxes of physical; serious damage to armor, too.

Note that with standard rules, this shot would have done exactly squat.
The attacker would be rolling against a TN of 24 (!) due to
the +2*10 recoil mod, have a damage code of 21D with no successes, and
thus miss entirely.

Adding a smartgun wouldn't help with the old rules. A smartgun with
the new rule would mean _7_ successes on the above roll instead of
just 4 (clump TNs become 2,2,2,6,14), for a D/3 result with overdamage
(13 boxes) even if the defender managed one success against the TN 17.
Talk about having a bad day.

Also note that the D/1-2 result was achieved with pretty minimal
recoil comp and no beneficial TN mods like a smartgun link/laser
sight/whatever. Lots of bullets from a minigun = lots of damage!

OPTIONAL RULE 1a: Hardened armor uses the power of the _clump_,
rather than the base power of the _round_,
when determining whether to ignore damage from
the rounds.

This optional rule just occurred to me. Under normal rules for
hardened armor, NO SHOT from a minigun can EVER damage someone with 7
points of hardened armor. Since the shots of a clump are assumed to
be hitting _really_ close together, we could say that they basically
hit "one-atop-another" and thus make for a serious point of
penetration, more so than any single round. So, for a person with 8
points of hardened armor in the above example, clumps 1 and 2 (with
power 7 and 8 respectively) bounce, but clumps 3, 4, and 5 (with power
9, 10, and 11, due to # of shots within the clump) can actually do
damage. So, in the above case, what _actually_ would hit the person
would be clumps 3 and 4 (5 missed, and 1 and 2 hit but bounce), for a
total of 7 bullets, a code of 13D instead of 17D. 8 points of armor
means the actual resisted damage is 5D with 4 successes. Bad, but
survivable, especially with an application of a karma reroll or two.

>
>> OPTIONAL RULE 2: For allowing the attacker a tradeoff of more bullets
>> hitting vs. a more successful hit:
>>
>> Allow "dice stacking" on an attack roll.
>> [snipped explanation]
>
>I don't like the idea, because it allows the sacrifice of one success for a
>tradeoff to get an extra damage level (effectively 2 successes). Let me
> [snip snip snip]

I agree with you on this one. Let's chuck OR#2.

>> >I wouldn't use the "I rolled 43! Don't I
>> >get anything better for it?" rule if I used it though. If you begin
using it
>> >here, which is unnecessary, then it will all too easily filter down to all
>> >skill rolls. If the person isn't skilled enough to do something to a high
>> >degree of precision, then even luck won't help them.
>>
>> That was the idea, actually; to propagate it to all skill rolls.
>> [ snip snip snip]
>
>But introducing this rule would mean those who roll 5 or 6 dice (or more)
>would routinely achieve 1 or 2 more successes than they would have otherwise
>been expected to. The rule solves the problem of low skills not being able
>to achieve many successes, but it also means that someone with a high skill
>will nearly always get at least one more success than he should be able to.

Depends on how many successes you think he should "be able to get." :)
IMHO, if this rule is applied evenly across the board for everyone, it
just raises the expected number of successes by a small amount. No
biggie. The difference is not huge, and it helps the little guy
achieve a better tail probability distribution. One thing I always
liked about the rule of 6 is that it really does allow you to have a
nice Gaussian tail probability on everything; you can, indeed, get
_incredibly lucky_ and achieve something superhuman once in your life.
(and once in your life is about as often as you'll roll a 30 on one
die!) It really annoyed me that this beautiful statistical property
goes out the window as soon as someone with skill 2 needs 3 successes
to achieve something.

------------------------------
>From: Insomnia <insomnia@*******.CORE.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
>Subject: Re: Autofire/recoil, threat ratings, and rules.
>
>On Sat, 18 Mar 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:
>
>> Richard Bukowski writes:
>>
>> > Hmmm... It seems to me like this would result in excessive amounts of
>> > damage... Not that that's all bad :)
>
>`Not excessive chummer... Adequate.'
>
>> Just how extreme is it though? Lets take an example of a sammie firing a 7M
>> [ example of a common case resulting in horrible messy death snipped ]
>
>Actually, It would be Deadly +3 (at least the way I play) you need one
>success to hit, and only got 7 _extra_ successes. Anyway, If you are dumb
>enough to not be wearing at least 5 armor where there's a trained guard
>with an automatic weapon... Hey you deserve 3 D3 wounds. As I said I
>_have_ playtested this system, and it is balanced.

I'm forced to agree with Damion. As far as I can tell, this system
makes the _number_ of dice you are going to roll critical rather than
the old system, which makes the TNs high enough to make the TN
critical. If you are always resisting base damage, for most weapons
an armor jacket reduces TNs to 2 or 3. However, if you don't get the
8 or 9 successes you need to completely remove all of the attacker's
successes, you're dead meat on a stick; all 3 bullets will hit you and
do M's. 3 M's, which is _certainly_ reasonable to get even with lots
of defense successes (i.e. wearing armor), is 1 box shy of death!

>> > and in early shots at a system that we used, this tended to mean that
>> > armor became _extremely_ effective at stopping shots. Is this actually the
>> > case?
>>
>> I'd have thought that armour would play rather a big part in defence. In the
>> example I had with the 7M SMG, it would only require an armour jacket to
>> make the resistance test target number 2. Then it's just a matter of who has
>> the most dice.
>
>Or just wear heavy security armor w/ helmet and Ignore the guy except
>knockback.

Does this mean you consider _all_ armor to be hardened? All
_unhardened_ heavy sec armor will do in the above case is reduce TNs
to 2, which they were at already if you were wearing an armor jacket!
Furthermore, heavy armor means less combat pool, which I have already
stated is critical to surviving in your system; more dice is
_absolutely_ necessary to avoid death.

This system seems pretty cool; clean and simple, no extraneous dice
rolling, easy to run. However, it's _very_ vicious. How tough is the
group of shadowrunners you work with? It could be that it's balanced
in your game world, because of other house rules you use. What other
rules modifications are in force in your game? From thinking about my
game, I think in our setting this would make autofire just
ridiculously deadly.

Rick

Richard William Bukowski | Computer Science Department
Bukowski@**.Berkeley.EDU | University of California at Berkeley
"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh "BOB" D'lyeh Wgah'nagl Dhobbz f'htagn."
Message no. 11
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Autofire and recoil rules
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 11:50:38 +1000
Keith Johnson writes:

> This is my first posting to any list server.
> If I screw this up, Please forgive me.

No! Never! You shall be eternally flamed and banished to a lower plane of
hell for you unforgivable sins! <Muahahahah!>.

<Grin> & :-)

> I'm a veteran, and a gun nut. Hope that qualifies me to speak.

Ah, good, I was hoping there'd be some gun freak out there to answer my
question :-)

> [Description of miniguns deleted]

OK then, thanks for that, I think I've now more or less got the idea of how
the things work. Anyway back to the point in question. It seems that FASA
miniguns don't exactly conform. They have higher firing rates, but they have,
essentially, minimum bursts of 15. But, this point aside, I shall continue
and explain why I'd think miniguns would have Rick's normal recoil rules,
not his 'clump' recoil rules. The timing between rounds fired from the
minigun is, while small, still constant. Each round must be fired, clear the
barrel, and the barrel rotate before the next round is fired (all the
loading, ejecting etc is irrelevent here, it just allows the rounds to be
spat out with shorter time gaps between them). There is no discernible
'clump' or 'burst' of rounds which leave the weapon within a definate
timespan, it is rather a case of more rounds leave the weapon in any given
amount of time than do so in a normal weapon. Unless you rule that because
of the very high rate of fire, that the recoil does not have time to take
effect untill 'x' rounds have been fired, then I can't se why the weapon
should get the 'clump' rules. If one were to rule as I just suggested, then
what would essentially occur is the first 'x' rounds would be recoil free,
then each round after that would have a +1 recoil modifier (more or less 'x'
points of free recoil comp.) Note that my ideas probably apply to superMGs
too, and if we look at the rules for these weapons we notice that they do,
in fact, get 'free' points of recoil. Only weapons which are designated as
firing very high speed (but discrete) bursts would get the 'clump' rules.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 12
From: Jessica Snyder <jrsnyder@********.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Autofire and recoil rules
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 21:04:14 -0600
>Damion Milliken writes:
>
>OK then, thanks for that, I think I've now more or less got the idea of how
>the things work. Anyway back to the point in question. It seems that FASA
>miniguns don't exactly conform. They have higher firing rates, but they have,
>essentially, minimum bursts of 15. But, this point aside, I shall continue
>and explain why I'd think miniguns would have Rick's normal recoil rules,
>not his 'clump' recoil rules. The timing between rounds fired from the
>minigun is, while small, still constant. Each round must be fired, clear the
>barrel, and the barrel rotate before the next round is fired (all the
>loading, ejecting etc is irrelevent here, it just allows the rounds to be
>spat out with shorter time gaps between them). There is no discernible
>'clump' or 'burst' of rounds which leave the weapon within a definate
>timespan, it is rather a case of more rounds leave the weapon in any given
>amount of time than do so in a normal weapon. Unless you rule that because
>of the very high rate of fire, that the recoil does not have time to take
>effect untill 'x' rounds have been fired, then I can't se why the weapon
>should get the 'clump' rules. If one were to rule as I just suggested, then
>what would essentially occur is the first 'x' rounds would be recoil free,
>then each round after that would have a +1 recoil modifier (more or less 'x'
>points of free recoil comp.) Note that my ideas probably apply to superMGs
>too, and if we look at the rules for these weapons we notice that they do,
>in fact, get 'free' points of recoil. Only weapons which are designated as
>firing very high speed (but discrete) bursts would get the 'clump' rules.
>
Technically speaking, I agree totally.

The problem here is that technically means nothing.
People are trying to find a way to describe the effects
of miniguns in game terms. These are artificial things.
A minigun _IS_ deadly. How do you deal with that in
terms of a game that is designed to be relatively
forgiving?

I think everyone will agree that it is difficult to kill
a person in this game with a .22 pistol. It happens all
the time in our world.

So the question becomes... do you want technically
accurate descriptions of the weapon function, or do
you want functionally correct descriptions that make
the weapons work within the game framework?

Personally I perfer funtionality to technicality.

Just my thoughts.

Keith

PS I like it here
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Autofire and recoil rules
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 11:32:27 +0100
>As for a caseless minigun being faster because of less steps...
>That assumes that the reason for slowness is the number of steps.
>It isn't. It's heat. The m61a1 vulcan 20mm cannon that is the
>gun on most us planes fires at a rate of 3000 rounds a minute.

I thought 6000 rpm... just a technicality, though :)

>but it has to fire them in controled bursts(3 rounds I think)
>because of the heat that builds up. Most of the improvements in
>the minigun technology have come in the field of cryogenics. It
>is this technology that cools the gun without warping the barrels.

I was just thinking of a combination of minigun/water-cooled machine gun...
build a sleeve around the barrel assembly and fill it with water, like in
the WWI Vickers and Maxim guns...

>ammo capacity. Remember, in Vietnam, US soldiers fired 10,000
>rounds for every Vietnamese casualty. (Just some trivia for you)

That's what I want my players to do, too :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
<te huur: 1 lege regel (opschrift naar keuze), hier te bezichtigen.>
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Autofire and recoil rules
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 11:32:30 +0100
Richard Bukowski (sp?) said:
>In fact, I would now like to propose a minor modification of the
>clumping rule that I proposed earlier.

Could you, if and when you reach a "final" version of these rules, post the
complete works onto the list? That way all the rules would be in one place,
and instead of all of us having to cut and paste it all together only you
would have to go to that trouble :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
<te huur: 1 lege regel (opschrift naar keuze), hier te bezichtigen.>
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 15
From: Richard Bukowski <bukowski@**.BERKELEY.EDU>
Subject: Autofire and recoil rules
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 22:06:14 -0800
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 11:50:38 +1000
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Autofire and recoil rules
>Keith Johnson writes:
>
>> This is my first posting to any list server.
>> If I screw this up, Please forgive me.
>
>No! Never! You shall be eternally flamed and banished to a lower plane of
>hell for you unforgivable sins! <Muahahahah!>.

<giggle>

-----------------------------

>
>Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 21:04:14 -0600
>From: Keith Johnson <jrsnyder@********.WISC.EDU>
>Subject: Re: Autofire and recoil rules
>
>>Damion Milliken writes:
>>
>>OK then, thanks for that, I think I've now more or less got the idea of how
>>the things work. Anyway back to the point in question. It seems that FASA
>>miniguns don't exactly conform. They have higher firing rates, but they have,
>>essentially, minimum bursts of 15. But, this point aside, I shall continue
>>and explain why I'd think miniguns would have Rick's normal recoil rules,
>> [ Clipped explanation about why clumps are inaccurate ]
>>
>Technically speaking, I agree totally.
>
>The problem here is that technically means nothing.
>People are trying to find a way to describe the effects
>of miniguns in game terms. These are artificial things.
>A minigun _IS_ deadly. How do you deal with that in
>terms of a game that is designed to be relatively
>forgiving?

Designed to be relatively forgiving? Which game are YOU playing? I'm
playing Shadowrun, where combats generally result in mass death in the
first 3 seconds or so!

>
>I think everyone will agree that it is difficult to kill
>a person in this game with a .22 pistol. It happens all
>the time in our world.

Actually, now that we have SR2, it's pretty easy to kill somebody
_without any armor_ with a light pistol. The problem (?) with SR is
that everybody who has a clue has teflon-ribbed clothing!

>
>So the question becomes... do you want technically
>accurate descriptions of the weapon function, or do
>you want functionally correct descriptions that make
>the weapons work within the game framework?
>
>Personally I perfer funtionality to technicality.

Precisely, and that's most of the purpose behind the clumping rules.
Generally, the fire rate of a gun I would classify as HCR is so high
that, if you hit at all, you're likely to put many more rounds into
the target than if you'd used a slower fire-rate weapon. Sure, you
still have to hit with each bullet; but there's a greater "inertia" to
the motion of the gun, simply due to the fact that the timescale
between bullets is smaller. Damion mentions giving the HCR guns a
"delayed recoil." In fact, that was the very first thing I thought of
for these guns. I realized, however, that delayed recoil does not
have the effect I want the miniguns to have. It's not _delayed_
recoil; the "recoil curve" wants to have an entirely different shape.
The bullets don't have any less recoil; in fact, the total recoil is
_higher_ if anything, due to the velocity of the rounds and number of
bullets being fired. However, this interacts with the increased
inertia caused by the increased firing rate to give an _exponential_
sort of inertia curve rather than the normal SR recoil, which is
_linear_.

The only way to achieve something resembling the effect (recoil that
catches up with you just as quickly, but a few successes putting more
rounds into the target than usual) is to treat the bullets as bunches.
At least, this is the only way I can think of to do it.

Keith is exactly right in this. Clumping is the best way I could come
up with, within the basic game mechanic, to represent the effects I
wanted.

-----------------------------
>Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 11:32:30 +0100
>From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
>Subject: Re: Autofire and recoil rules

>Could you, if and when you reach a "final" version of these rules, post the
>complete works onto the list? That way all the rules would be in one place,
>and instead of all of us having to cut and paste it all together only you
>would have to go to that trouble :)

Way ahead of you. :) I am compiling the rules as they get
created/modified, and once they reach some sort of stable state, I'll
post them for general benefit (as well as incorporating them into my
own game). I think they're almost there, actually; it's just the
specifics of the HCR rules that I think still need a bit of work.

Rick

Richard William Bukowski | Computer Science Department
Bukowski@**.Berkeley.EDU | University of California at Berkeley
"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh "BOB" D'lyeh Wgah'nagl Dhobbz f'htagn."
Message no. 16
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Autofire and recoil rules
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 18:34:42 +1000
Richard Bukowski writes:

> I'm not sure I like that idea. It becomes unclear which is more
> advantageous: adding a bullet hit, or adding a success.

Well, the idea was to have successes assigned to making bullets hit _before_
having them assigned to "successes" as we normally consider them (whether
you wanted to ot not). But I agree, the suggestion starts to deviate too much
from the standard SR rules. Chuck it.

> The idea of the clumping is: since the low HCR weapon hit with
> one bullet for a success, that weapon's barrel must have spent an
> amount of time pointed at the target sufficient for a bullet to have
> come out of the barrel during that period of time. A weapon with
> twice the fire rate would have spat two bullets during that same time;
> so, both bullets hit the target "for the price of one", that is, the
> price of the one success that allowed the low HCR weapon to hit.
> (Is this at all clear?)

Yes, I think I see what you're getting at. The recoil has not got enough
time to seriously misalign the aim of the firer before another round is
actually fired. Effectively, what it would be is a +1/2 target number
modifier to your shot, because the recoil has not effected your aiming as
seriously as it would with a slower rate of fire weapon (the weapon hasn't
physically moved enough in the shorter time span to give a full +1 recoil
modifier). Since +1/2 (or +1/3 etc) recoil modifiers cannot be used, then we
only apply the recoil modifer once a full point of +'s is reached (ie after 2
rounds for a HCR2 weapon, and after 5 for a HCR5 <particularily fast firing
and nasty weapon>).

> In fact, I would now like to propose a minor modification of the
> clumping rule that I proposed earlier.

What you have done here is said that rounds fired later in a burst are less
affected by recoil than rounds fired early in the burst. I don't really see
any justification for this line of reasoning.

> OPTIONAL RULE 1a: Hardened armor uses the power of the _clump_,
> rather than the base power of the _round_,

I don't like it at all. The rounds will not hit _that_ closely together,
they will still each be a little off the original target, it is unlikely for
the rounds from an automatic weapon to hit so very closely to the same place
one after the other. And remember, the armour of one of the modern day tanks
(someone posted this earlier) was impenetrable to weapons up to a certain
gruntiness (I think it was impenetrable to fire from anything which was
50cal or less actually). Sure, if you sat there and fired 2000 rounds into
it you'd probebly do some damage, but within the scope of a normal
firefight, it will be untouchable by weapons of lower Power. If you want
some mechanism to downgrade the armour, then use the "Break Through" rules
when hitting hardened armour (personally I don't read the so rules that one
can degrade hardened armour in this way, but you could make it a house
ruling).

> So, in the above case, what _actually_ would hit the person would be
> clumps 3 and 4 (5 missed, and 1 and 2 hit but bounce), for a total of 7
> bullets, a code of 13D instead of 17D. 8 points of armor means the actual
> resisted damage is 5D with 4 successes.

Not to forget that hardened armour first halves the Power, then reduced the
damage category by one when resisting non armour piercing weapons. (pg108
SRII.) So the resultant damage would be 2S from the above burst.

> [The "I rolled 43, whadda I get for it?" rule]
>
> Depends on how many successes you think he should "be able to get." :)
> IMHO, if this rule is applied evenly across the board for everyone, it
> just raises the expected number of successes by a small amount.

Yeah, I see your point here. Maybe it would work, it wouldn't increase the
success rates by more than 1 or 2 successes at most in the general case, but
it can make for very extreme good luck, with some phenomenal occurances
(like when you roll 43 - I did once, boy, that guy would've blown one of the
runners clean off the face of the earth :-)). Does anybody else out there
use it? If so, could you tell us how you find the rule?

> >Actually, It would be Deadly +3 (at least the way I play) you need one
> >success to hit, and only got 7 _extra_ successes.

That's an ok house rule, but if you read the example on page 91 SRII, you'll
see it's a misinterpretation.

> Actually, now that we have SR2, it's pretty easy to kill somebody _without
> any armor_ with a light pistol.

I don't so much know about that, you'll still need 6 successes more than
them to kill them, so you'd better either have a good skill or a very low
target number.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Autofire and recoil rules, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.