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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: Autofire Redux
Date: Fri Jun 1 16:45:01 2001
Okay, this time I sat down with the rules :)

Weapons with FA capability fire 10-round FA bursts.

FA bursts use the shotgun spread rules with the following caveats.

The maximum "choke" is equal to the number of rounds fired minus
uncompensated recoil.

For example, if a character fires a 10-round FA burst with four points of
uncompensated recoil, the maximum choke for that burst is 6.

Negative recoil may be applied to the choke of the FA burst. For example,
if a character fires an FA burst with twelve points of recoil he would have
a final recoil of -2 (10 - 12), for a choke of 12 (10 - -2).

When firing a character may declare to fire an FA burst with a lower choke
then the maximum burst. However, each point of decrease of the choke of
the burst increases the target number by +1.

The base damage for the burst is calculated per the rules, +10 to the Power
of the attack and +3 Damage Levels (+1 Power per round and +1 DL per three
rounds).

The burst (with an initial spread of one meter) spreads one meter per a
number of meters equal to the choke. An FA burst with a choke of 6 would
have a spread of two meters at a range of six meters, a spread of three
meters at a range of twelve meters, a spread of four meters at a range of
eighteen meters, and so on.

As per the shotgun rules the base Power of the FA attack decreases by one
per every number of meters equal to the choke of the burst.

Recoil from an FA burst is *not* applied to the target number of the
attack. Recoil is only used to determine the choke.

If multiple targets are within the burst, see the shotgun spread rules
(sorry, I can't remember how this bit works atm).

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Gridsec, Nice Guy Division
--
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: Autofire Redux
Date: Fri Jun 1 20:40:00 2001
--- Graht <davidb@***.100.100.99> wrote:
> Okay, this time I sat down with the rules :)
>
> Weapons with FA capability fire 10-round FA bursts.

10 rounds? That's it, no more, no less? What if you want to fire a 6
round burst? What about super-machineguns, do they just fire bursts of
their maximum ROF, 18? And what happens if you want to fire at multiple
targets, do you just lower the choke and fire once, or make multiple tests?

:)

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Autofire Redux
Date: Sat Jun 2 06:05:01 2001
According to Graht, on Fri, 01 Jun 2001 the word on the street was...

> The maximum "choke" is equal to the number of rounds fired minus
> uncompensated recoil.

Wouldn't it make more sense to give a _minimum_ choke rating, rather than a
maximum one? In effect you're saying that recoil compensation makes it
harder to move the weapon from side to side to cover a large area.

> The burst (with an initial spread of one meter) spreads one meter per a
> number of meters equal to the choke. An FA burst with a choke of 6 would
> have a spread of two meters at a range of six meters, a spread of three
> meters at a range of twelve meters, a spread of four meters at a range of
> eighteen meters, and so on.

This doesn't fit with the shotgun choke rules, though. It's much easier to
say something like, "The spread of the burst is equal to the distance
between the shooter and the target, divided by the choke." For example,
with a choke of 6 and a range of 15 meters you're looking at a spread of
2.5 m.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Who needs that now?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: Autofire Redux
Date: Mon Jun 4 12:25:01 2001
At 05:43 PM 6/1/2001 -0700, BD wrote:

>--- Graht <davidb@***.100.100.99> wrote:
> > Okay, this time I sat down with the rules :)
> >
> > Weapons with FA capability fire 10-round FA bursts.
>
> 10 rounds? That's it, no more, no less? What if you want to fire a 6
>round burst? What about super-machineguns, do they just fire bursts of
>their maximum ROF, 18?

I thought about allowing for variable bursts, but decided against it just
to make the game mechanic easier. If you want to allow variable FA bursts
in your game, go for it :)

> And what happens if you want to fire at multiple
>targets, do you just lower the choke and fire once, or make multiple tests?

See the Shotgun Spread rules :)

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Gridsec, Nice Guy Division
--
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: Autofire Redux
Date: Mon Jun 4 12:30:01 2001
At 12:07 PM 6/2/2001 +0200, Gurth wrote:
>According to Graht, on Fri, 01 Jun 2001 the word on the street was...
>
> > The maximum "choke" is equal to the number of rounds fired minus
> > uncompensated recoil.
>
>Wouldn't it make more sense to give a _minimum_ choke rating, rather than a
>maximum one? In effect you're saying that recoil compensation makes it
>harder to move the weapon from side to side to cover a large area.

I got this backward the first time around, so I can understand how you did
the same thing ;)

The higher the choke, the narrower the spread. A choke of 1 means the
burst spreads 1m for every meter traveled. A choke of 10 means the burst
spreads 1m for ever 10m traveled.

A burst with four points of uncompensated recoil would result in a max
choke of 6. The attacker could choose to fire the narrowest burst possible
at a choke of 6, or he could choose to spread it out more, dropping as far
as a choke of 1 if he so desired.

> > The burst (with an initial spread of one meter) spreads one meter per a
> > number of meters equal to the choke. An FA burst with a choke of 6 would
> > have a spread of two meters at a range of six meters, a spread of three
> > meters at a range of twelve meters, a spread of four meters at a range of
> > eighteen meters, and so on.
>
>This doesn't fit with the shotgun choke rules, though. It's much easier to
>say something like, "The spread of the burst is equal to the distance
>between the shooter and the target, divided by the choke." For example,
>with a choke of 6 and a range of 15 meters you're looking at a spread of
>2.5 m.

gah, I screwed up my math in the example. That should have been a spread
of 1m at 6m, 2m at 12m, 3m at 18m, and so on. Sorry bout that :)

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Gridsec, Nice Guy Division
--
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Marc Renouf)
Subject: Autofire Redux
Date: Mon Jun 4 12:45:00 2001
On Mon, 4 Jun 2001, Graht wrote:

> gah, I screwed up my math in the example. That should have been a spread
> of 1m at 6m, 2m at 12m, 3m at 18m, and so on. Sorry bout that :)

Hey, now Graht's qualified to write for FASA!

Marc
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: Autofire Redux
Date: Mon Jun 4 12:55:01 2001
At 12:49 PM 6/4/2001 -0400, Marc Renouf wrote:


>On Mon, 4 Jun 2001, Graht wrote:
>
> > gah, I screwed up my math in the example. That should have been a spread
> > of 1m at 6m, 2m at 12m, 3m at 18m, and so on. Sorry bout that :)
>
> Hey, now Graht's qualified to write for FASA!

ROFL!

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Gridsec, Nice Guy Division
--
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Autofire Redux
Date: Mon Jun 4 14:00:06 2001
According to Graht, on Mon, 04 Jun 2001 the word on the street was...

> >Wouldn't it make more sense to give a _minimum_ choke rating, rather than a
> >maximum one? In effect you're saying that recoil compensation makes it
> >harder to move the weapon from side to side to cover a large area.
>
> I got this backward the first time around, so I can understand how you did
> the same thing ;)

You're right... This whole choke thing is sufficiently upside-down to make
things really confusing :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Who needs that now?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Autofire Redux
Date: Mon Jun 4 18:20:01 2001
>> > Weapons with FA capability fire 10-round FA bursts.
>>
>> 10 rounds? That's it, no more, no less? What if you want to fire a 6
>>round burst? What about super-machineguns, do they just fire bursts of
>>their maximum ROF, 18?
>
>I thought about allowing for variable bursts, but decided against it just
>to make the game mechanic easier. If you want to allow variable FA bursts
>in your game, go for it :)

You have to allow for bursts of less than 10. Otherwise, what happens when
an SMG has a clip that holds 35 bullets and you fire it in FA 4 times in a
row?

-Mongoose
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: Autofire Redux
Date: Wed Jun 6 18:50:01 2001
At 05:22 PM 6/4/2001 -0500, Sebastian Wiers wrote:
> >> > Weapons with FA capability fire 10-round FA bursts.
> >>
> >> 10 rounds? That's it, no more, no less? What if you want to fire a 6
> >>round burst? What about super-machineguns, do they just fire bursts of
> >>their maximum ROF, 18?
> >
> >I thought about allowing for variable bursts, but decided against it just
> >to make the game mechanic easier. If you want to allow variable FA bursts
> >in your game, go for it :)
>
>You have to allow for bursts of less than 10. Otherwise, what happens when
>an SMG has a clip that holds 35 bullets and you fire it in FA 4 times in a
>row?

Sorry, I meant that if 10 rounds are available a 10-round burst will be
fired. If there are only 5 rounds left, a 5 round burst will be fired and
all calculations should be made accordingly :)

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Gridsec, Nice Guy Division
--
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Autofire Redux
Date: Sat Jun 9 02:30:01 2001
Graht writes:

> Weapons with FA capability fire 10-round FA bursts.
>
> FA bursts use the shotgun spread rules with the following caveats.
>
> The maximum "choke" is equal to the number of rounds fired minus
> uncompensated recoil.

This seems strange. Choke in SR is a measure of how far down the line the
attack goes before it spreads. Thus, someone with _no_ recoil compensation
at all would be able to let loose a spray that wouldn't spread for 10m down
the line. Someone with 8 points of recoil can only let loose sprays that go
about 2m before spreading. ie, they've got _less_ control over their burst.

> For example, if a character fires a 10-round FA burst with four points of
> uncompensated recoil, the maximum choke for that burst is 6.
>
> Negative recoil may be applied to the choke of the FA burst. For example,
> if a character fires an FA burst with twelve points of recoil he would have
> a final recoil of -2 (10 - 12), for a choke of 12 (10 - -2).

I think that something like this would be a better rule in general here.
Perhaps giving an uncompensated burst a choke of 2, and allowing the firer to
add 1 to the choke for each point of recoil compensation that they have.
This way recoil compensation helps keep the burst together, and also allows
the firer to spray wildly and get low chokes if he so wishes.

> When firing a character may declare to fire an FA burst with a lower choke
> then the maximum burst. However, each point of decrease of the choke of
> the burst increases the target number by +1.

I'd probably handle this the other way. If a firer wishes to increase the
choke above what his available recoil compensation would allow, he may do
aso at +1 TN per +1 choke.

> The base damage for the burst is calculated per the rules, +10 to the Power
> of the attack and +3 Damage Levels (+1 Power per round and +1 DL per three
> rounds).

Ouch! Isn't the idea of this to represent filling the air with lead? The
choke rules allow the firer a much greater chance to hit. I would have
thought that the logical consequence of this would be that he would hit with
less rounds. I would have thought to just keep it at base damage.

> As per the shotgun rules the base Power of the FA attack decreases by one
> per every number of meters equal to the choke of the burst.

Oh, with this in mind, it's probably OK to increase the Power and Damage
Level by the normal burst modifiers. However, I might suggest Marc's rule
for shotguns, in which the Damage Level is decreased by 1 for every 3
decreases in Power (ie, the reverse of the burst fire rules for increasing
Power and Damage Level). This stops people letting loose a 10 round burst
with a choke of 2, hitting their target with a Power of 2, but needing 2's
to hit and rolling a dozen or some such crazy amount of them.

I could see these rules being used instead of the covering fire rules in CC,
but I'd be hesitant to use them for regular autofire - they seem to
represent "spray and pray" style autofire.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Autofire Redux
Date: Sat Jun 9 02:55:01 2001
Graht writes:

> > > The maximum "choke" is equal to the number of rounds fired minus
> > > uncompensated recoil.
> >
> >Wouldn't it make more sense to give a _minimum_ choke rating, rather than a
> >maximum one? In effect you're saying that recoil compensation makes it
> >harder to move the weapon from side to side to cover a large area.
>
> I got this backward the first time around, so I can understand how you did
> the same thing ;)

I just noticed that I read "uncompensated" as "compensated" when
replying to
your original message. I think that your mechanics would probably make
sense, contrary to my previous reply :-).

It's damned easy to screw up with choke stuff ;-).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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