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Message no. 1
From: james@*************.fsnet.co.uk (J Lismore)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 02:43:42 +0100
The rules given in SR3 main book for full autofire I find a little hazy.
>From this I could do with a number of points answering.
1 Is full auto worked out as a number of bursts (a la GURPS)
If not the
2 If a person wanted to fire all 10 bullets at 1 target would this be just 1
roll with the full +10 recoil

Thanx
Message no. 2
From: grapz@*******.org (Anders_Østhus)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 03:57:01 +0200
J Lismore wrote:
> The rules given in SR3 main book for full autofire I find a little hazy.
>>From this I could do with a number of points answering.
> 1 Is full auto worked out as a number of bursts (a la GURPS)

No. A full auto is the max firerate of the weapon (normal weapons is 10
bullets). You can fire a full auto with less bullets if you would like.

> 2 If a person wanted to fire all 10 bullets at 1 target would this be just 1
> roll with the full +10 recoil

Yes. Each bullet fired adds +1 to recoil, so firing 10 bullets adds +10
to the T# for recoil, but a person only firing 7 bullets adds +7 to the T#.
Message no. 3
From: me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 05:06:26 +0200
AØ> J Lismore wrote:
>> The rules given in SR3 main book for full autofire I find a little hazy.
>>>From this I could do with a number of points answering.
>> 1 Is full auto worked out as a number of bursts (a la GURPS)

AØ> No. A full auto is the max firerate of the weapon (normal weapons is 10
AØ> bullets). You can fire a full auto with less bullets if you would like.

>> 2 If a person wanted to fire all 10 bullets at 1 target would this be just 1
>> roll with the full +10 recoil

AØ> Yes. Each bullet fired adds +1 to recoil, so firing 10 bullets adds +10
AØ> to the T# for recoil, but a person only firing 7 bullets adds +7 to the T#.

---------------------------------------------

Plus you can, if you want fire multiple bursts in Full Auto Mode. For
example it is possible to fire one burst with 4 and to bursts with 3 bullets
each, the first burst would be +4 recoil the second +7 (4+3 bullets)
and the third +10 (4+3+3 bullets) ofcourse the maximum number of
rounds fired can not be greater than 10. (15 for minigun weapons)
Message no. 4
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:22:10 +0200
According to J Lismore, on Monday 21 April 2003 03:43 the word on the
street was...

> 1 Is full auto worked out as a number of bursts (a la GURPS)

Only if you fire at multiple targets would you work it out as a series of
bursts, each of however many rounds you decide to put into each target --
but the recoil of the previous bursts will affect the current one as well.
For example, if you fire 10 rounds at three targets, you could put three
rounds into the first one, five into the second, and two into the last;
the first target would have a +3 recoil modifier, the second +3+5 = +8,
and the third +10.

> If not the
> 2 If a person wanted to fire all 10 bullets at 1 target would this be
> just 1 roll with the full +10 recoil

Yes. This makes hitting the target rather difficult, which is why I use a
house rule that works like this: determine the TN normally, but do not
figure in recoil. Then roll an Open Test and subtract the TN from the
roll; if the final roll is 0 or higher, you hit with a number of rounds
equal to that roll plus the level of recoil compensation you have.

For example, if you're firing 10 rounds at Medium range under otherwise
perfect conditions (that is, a TN of 5), and you roll 9 on your Open Test,
you hit with 9 - 5 = 4 rounds. Should you also have 3 points of recoil
compensation, you'd hit with 7 rounds instead.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We'll all take turns. I'll get mine, too.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: me@******.net (X3K6A2)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:59:35 +0200
> For example, if you fire 10 rounds at three targets, you could put three
> rounds into the first one, five into the second, and two into the last;

Wasn't there a rule saying that a burst must have at least 3 rounds?
Message no. 6
From: grapz@*******.org (Anders_Østhus)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:04:23 +0200
X3K6A2 wrote:
>>For example, if you fire 10 rounds at three targets, you could put three
>>rounds into the first one, five into the second, and two into the last;
>
> Wasn't there a rule saying that a burst must have at least 3 rounds?

Yes, there is. Page 115, SR3. It says: "At least three rounds must be
fired in each burst."
Message no. 7
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:07:52 +0200
According to Anders Østhus, on Monday 21 April 2003 17:04 the word on the
street was...

> Yes, there is. Page 115, SR3. It says: "At least three rounds must be
> fired in each burst."

You can interpret that in different ways; the way I've always read it, is
that when you fire on FA, you must fire at least three rounds, but you can
put them into three different targets if you want to.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We'll all take turns. I'll get mine, too.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:55:19 +0200
Le lundi, 21 avr 2003, à 19:07 Europe/Paris, Gurth a écrit :

>> Yes, there is. Page 115, SR3. It says: "At least three rounds must be
>> fired in each burst."
>
> You can interpret that in different ways; the way I've always read it,
> is
> that when you fire on FA, you must fire at least three rounds, but you
> can
> put them into three different targets if you want to.
>

That's how I handle it too; given the level of control a smartlink
gives you over a weapon, it makes sense. However, if you're using a
dumbgun you won't be as accurate, so my ruling is that (declared
number) + (1d6 - 3) bullets (at least 1) are fired.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr@*****.fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 9
From: renouf@********.com (Marc Renouf)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:10:29 -0400 (EDT)
On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Gurth wrote:

> Yes. This makes hitting the target rather difficult, which is why I use a
> house rule that works like this...

Gurth and I use very similar house rules in this regard. For
examples of how this works for various levels of recoil-compensation,
against multiple targets, etc, check out the following:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jormung/shadowrun/rules3.html#Autofire

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

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David Buehrer <graht@******.net> GridSec "Nice Guy" Division
ShadowRN FAQ <http://hlair.dumpshock.com/faqindex.php3>;
Message no. 10
From: grapz@*******.org (Anders_Østhus)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 02:42:07 +0200
Gurth wrote:
>>Yes, there is. Page 115, SR3. It says: "At least three rounds must be
>>fired in each burst."
>
>
> You can interpret that in different ways; the way I've always read it, is
> that when you fire on FA, you must fire at least three rounds, but you can
> put them into three different targets if you want to.
>

I've always interpret it like this: When fireing a FA, you can fire
anywhere between 3 and <Max fire rate>, but if you split between
targets, atleast 3 rounds needs to hit each target. To me this makes
more sence, since when you split up a FA on several targets, it is like
fireing lots of bursts on different targets.
Message no. 11
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:34:43 +1000 (EST)
--- Anders_Østhus <grapz@*******.org> wrote:
<snip>
> I've always interpret it like this: When fireing a
> FA, you can fire
> anywhere between 3 and <Max fire rate>, but if you
> split between
> targets, atleast 3 rounds needs to hit each target.
> To me this makes
> more sence, since when you split up a FA on several
> targets, it is like
> fireing lots of bursts on different targets.
>

The way I interpret FA is a minimum of 4 rounds
(purely as a game mechanic the trigger group wouldn't
allow any less, otherwise It would make the FA
selector redundant.Of course It still allows you to
fire 3 bursts & 1 extra round,but...)must be fired
(otherwise It would be a burst selection mode; 3 round
burst from assault rifle, sub-machine gun, etc.) I've
interpreted that at least a 3 round burst is required
to up the damage level per target, you can hose 10
individual targets with a lead spray to keep their
hoops down If you really wanted to.

GZ

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Message no. 12
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:02:17 +0200
According to Marc Renouf, on Monday 21 April 2003 22:10 the word on the
street was...

> Gurth and I use very similar house rules in this regard.

IIRC mine was derived from yours, mainly by simplifying the calculations
involved :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We'll all take turns. I'll get mine, too.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:06:15 +0200
According to Anders Østhus, on Tuesday 22 April 2003 02:42 the word on the
street was...

> I've always interpret it like this: When fireing a FA, you can fire
> anywhere between 3 and <Max fire rate>, but if you split between
> targets, atleast 3 rounds needs to hit each target. To me this makes
> more sence, since when you split up a FA on several targets, it is like
> fireing lots of bursts on different targets.

But if you have the trigger-finger control to fire four rounds at one
target and five at another, why wouldn't you be able to fire only one or
two bullets at a target?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We'll all take turns. I'll get mine, too.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:10:54 +0200
According to Robert Ennew, on Tuesday 22 April 2003 04:34 the word on the
street was...

> The way I interpret FA is a minimum of 4 rounds
> (purely as a game mechanic the trigger group wouldn't
> allow any less, otherwise It would make the FA
> selector redundant.

How so? It'd make the FA mode more flexible than BF mode, but both have
advantages and disadvantages:

In FA mode, by firing only three rounds you're basically wasting a Simple
Action (because you have to use a Complex Action to do what you could do
in a Simple one in BF mode), and if you're firing at multiple targets,
you'll be wasting rounds if they're more than a meter apart; the other
side of this is that you don't have to switch the weapon to a different
mode, and so can fire more than three rounds immediately (that is, on your
next action), should you need to.

In BF mode, you can only fire a limited number of rounds, but you won't
waste any when the targets are further than a meter apart.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We'll all take turns. I'll get mine, too.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:07:33 +1000 (EST)
--- Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote: > According to
Robert Ennew, on Tuesday 22 April 2003
> 04:34 the word on the
> street was...
>
> > The way I interpret FA is a minimum of 4 rounds
> > (purely as a game mechanic the trigger group
> wouldn't
> > allow any less, otherwise It would make the FA
> > selector redundant.
>
> How so? It'd make the FA mode more flexible than BF
> mode, but both have
> advantages and disadvantages:
>
> In FA mode, by firing only three rounds you're
> basically wasting a Simple
> Action (because you have to use a Complex Action to
> do what you could do
> in a Simple one in BF mode),

I agree, you just gave me another reason for my point
as you mentioned above, you wouldn't fire just a burst
In FA for that reason. That's why'd fire a minimum of
4 rounds (you'd be able to spread It between 4 targets
IIRC).

> and if you're firing at
> multiple targets,
> you'll be wasting rounds if they're more than a
> meter apart

Smartlink, besides a few stray rounds is worth It If
you increase your survivability by having a possible 5
out of 10 targets trying to gun you down barry for
cover, 50% increase in survivability.

>; the other
> side of this is that you don't have to switch the
> weapon to a different
> mode, and so can fire more than three rounds
> immediately (that is, on your
> next action), should you need to.
>
> In BF mode, you can only fire a limited number of
> rounds, but you won't
> waste any when the targets are further than a meter
> apart.
>

Why not? is because In BF mode, a 3 (or short burst)
is only alotted per target & can't be spread between
targets like 3 rounds FA? If Isn't so why can you
stray In FA & not BF also?

Not trying to knock back people's vast knowledge
(especially Gurth's...grovel...,grovel..., where not
worthy o'dark lord underneath the staircase :) of
shadowrun compared to my own, just trying to find
better understanding :)

GZ


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Message no. 16
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 11:13:55 +0200
According to Robert Ennew, on Wednesday 23 April 2003 10:07 the word on the
street was...

> I agree, you just gave me another reason for my point
> as you mentioned above, you wouldn't fire just a burst
> In FA for that reason. That's why'd fire a minimum of
> 4 rounds

So what if you have a weapon that fires SA/FA or FA only? The reasoning
that you have a three-round burst device on your weapon to take care of
three-round bursts doesn't work then :)

> > and if you're firing at
> > multiple targets,
> > you'll be wasting rounds if they're more than a
> > meter apart
>
> Smartlink

I intentionally didn't mention that: smartlinks are the exception rather
than the rule (maybe not for shadowrunners, but by far not everyone using
an FA-capable weapon will have a cyberware smartlink). The game rules here
are written with regular people in mind, with smartlinks then giving
bonuses on top of that.

> > In BF mode, you can only fire a limited number of
> > rounds, but you won't
> > waste any when the targets are further than a meter
> > apart.
>
> Why not? is because In BF mode, a 3 (or short burst)
> is only alotted per target & can't be spread between
> targets like 3 rounds FA? If Isn't so why can you
> stray In FA & not BF also?

I'm just using the game rules here :) BTB, a burst (as in BF mode) is fired
against a single target, and there is no rule for "lost" rounds when
firing at different targets with each of your bursts.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We'll all take turns. I'll get mine, too.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:26:48 +0200
G> So what if you have a weapon that fires SA/FA or FA only? The reasoning
G> that you have a three-round burst device on your weapon to take care of
G> three-round bursts doesn't work then :)

BF is only 2 points recoil so a strong samurai can precicly fire 2
bursts with 6 rounds in BF on a MP without much recoil compensation
(compensation makes weapons clumsy and big not always "the" thing to
take with you ;) the same samurai would be much worse of with 6 points
of recoil if he's not a Troll ;)

Greetz
Message no. 18
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:02:27 +0200
According to Hexren, on Wednesday 23 April 2003 21:26 the word on the
street was...

> BF is only 2 points recoil

A burst causes a +3 recoil modifier, just like firing 3 rounds in FA mode
-- see the table on page 112 of the SR3 main rules :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We'll all take turns. I'll get mine, too.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:10:05 +0200
G> According to Hexren, on Wednesday 23 April 2003 21:26 the word on the
G> street was...

>> BF is only 2 points recoil

G> A burst causes a +3 recoil modifier, just like firing 3 rounds in FA mode
G> -- see the table on page 112 of the SR3 main rules :)


---------------------------------------------

Maybe its different in the English Version but in the German book it
says on page 114 translated "a burst causes a cumultative recoil
modifier of +2 for each burst" (ofcourse only in BF mode) so firing 2 bursts in BF
(the maximum
number of bursts you can fire in that mode) causes only 4 points of
recoil.
And I can see logic behind that for 2 short bursts of exactly 3 rounds
are more easy to control than a weapon on full Auto.
Message no. 20
From: teddy-k@*****.de (Jens Brouwer)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:28:23 +0200
On 24 Apr 2003 at 13:10, Hexren wrote:

> G> According to Hexren, on Wednesday 23 April 2003 21:26 the word on the
> G> street was...
>
> >> BF is only 2 points recoil
>
> G> A burst causes a +3 recoil modifier, just like firing 3 rounds in FA mode
> G> -- see the table on page 112 of the SR3 main rules :)
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> Maybe its different in the English Version but in the German book it
> says on page 114 translated "a burst causes a cumultative recoil
> modifier of +2 for each burst" (ofcourse only in BF mode) so firing 2 bursts in
BF (the maximum
> number of bursts you can fire in that mode) causes only 4 points of
> recoil.
> And I can see logic behind that for 2 short bursts of exactly 3 rounds
> are more easy to control than a weapon on full Auto.


It used to be +2 for each burst in the german version because Fanpro thought of this as
more realistic, but with the german version of the canon companian ( Arsenal 2060 )
they changed it to the original +3

Teddy
Message no. 21
From: me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:39:57 +0200
JB> On 24 Apr 2003 at 13:10, Hexren wrote:

>> G> According to Hexren, on Wednesday 23 April 2003 21:26 the word on the
>> G> street was...
>>
>> >> BF is only 2 points recoil
>>
>> G> A burst causes a +3 recoil modifier, just like firing 3 rounds in FA mode
>> G> -- see the table on page 112 of the SR3 main rules :)
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------
>>
>> Maybe its different in the English Version but in the German book it
>> says on page 114 translated "a burst causes a cumultative recoil
>> modifier of +2 for each burst" (ofcourse only in BF mode) so firing 2 bursts
in BF (the maximum
>> number of bursts you can fire in that mode) causes only 4 points of
>> recoil.
>> And I can see logic behind that for 2 short bursts of exactly 3 rounds
>> are more easy to control than a weapon on full Auto.


JB> It used to be +2 for each burst in the german version because Fanpro thought of
this as
JB> more realistic, but with the german version of the canon companian ( Arsenal 2060 )

JB> they changed it to the original +3

JB> Teddy

---------------------------------------------

That can be, I do not own the German version of the CC so I don't
know. But I like the old rule better. For I too think it is more
realistic. But that ofcourse is opinion ;)

Greetz
Hexren
Message no. 22
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:18:51 +0200
Am Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:39:57 +0200 hat Hexren <me@******.net> geschrieben:


> JB> It used to be +2 for each burst in the german version because Fanpro
> thought of this as JB> more realistic, but with the german version of the
> canon companian ( Arsenal 2060 ) JB> they changed it to the original +3
>
> JB> Teddy
>
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> That can be, I do not own the German version of the CC so I don't
> know. But I like the old rule better. For I too think it is more
> realistic. But that ofcourse is opinion ;)
>

I can confirm that it was changed to bring the German and the English
versions of ShadowRun back in line.
'Tis said, there were fights between Germans and others about this rule. ;-)

--
Phillip Gawlowski
GameMaster and GeneralIdiot
Message no. 23
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:16:51 +0200
According to Hexren, on Thursday 24 April 2003 13:10 the word on the street
was...

> Maybe its different in the English Version but in the German book it
> says on page 114 translated "a burst causes a cumultative recoil
> modifier of +2 for each burst"

I know where this comes from: the first time the burst rules appear, in the
Rigger Black Book (1991), give a +2 recoil modifier for a burst (p. 131).
By SRII (1992), though, this had been changed to +3 per burst. For some
reason, FanPro must have decided to keep the +2 per burst in the German
translation.

> And I can see logic behind that for 2 short bursts of exactly 3 rounds
> are more easy to control than a weapon on full Auto.

Erm... although I have no practical experience with firearms whatsoever, it
seems to me that this is the kind of explanation that armchair gun
enthusiasts come up with :) I think that three rounds fired is three
rounds' worth of recoil, regardless of whether you release the trigger
yourself after three rounds, the burst controller does it for you, your
ammo runs out, or whatever...

Of course, since in general you only feel recoil after the round has left
the barrel of the weapon, the +2 per burst would technically be correct,
but then FA-fire would have to have a recoil modifier of (rounds fired
minus 1), too.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We'll all take turns. I'll get mine, too.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 24
From: davidb@****.imcprint.com (Graht)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:06:46 -0600
At 07:16 PM 4/24/2003 +0200, Gurth wrote:
>According to Hexren, on Thursday 24 April 2003 13:10 the word on the street
>was...
>
> > And I can see logic behind that for 2 short bursts of exactly 3 rounds
> > are more easy to control than a weapon on full Auto.
>
>Erm... although I have no practical experience with firearms whatsoever, it
>seems to me that this is the kind of explanation that armchair gun
>enthusiasts come up with :) I think that three rounds fired is three
>rounds' worth of recoil, regardless of whether you release the trigger
>yourself after three rounds, the burst controller does it for you, your
>ammo runs out, or whatever...
>
>Of course, since in general you only feel recoil after the round has left
>the barrel of the weapon, the +2 per burst would technically be correct,
>but then FA-fire would have to have a recoil modifier of (rounds fired
>minus 1), too.

Which at some point I think it did... SR1?

If you want to talk realism however, the first round isn't affected by
recoil, only the second and third rounds, so shouldn't the recoil rules
take into account that you aren't any less likely to hit the target with
one round, and have a chance of hitting the target with more than one round?

Oddly enough, my normally house rule overflowing head isn't coming up with
anything. Maybe after lunch...

--
To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
http://www.graht.com
Message no. 25
From: grimjack@******.com (Martin Little)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:12:38 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Gurth wrote:

> According to Hexren, on Thursday 24 April 2003 13:10 the word on the street
> was...
>
> > And I can see logic behind that for 2 short bursts of exactly 3 rounds
> > are more easy to control than a weapon on full Auto.
>
> Erm... although I have no practical experience with firearms whatsoever, it
> seems to me that this is the kind of explanation that armchair gun
> enthusiasts come up with :) I think that three rounds fired is three
> rounds' worth of recoil, regardless of whether you release the trigger
> yourself after three rounds, the burst controller does it for you, your
> ammo runs out, or whatever...
>
> Of course, since in general you only feel recoil after the round has left
> the barrel of the weapon, the +2 per burst would technically be correct,
> but then FA-fire would have to have a recoil modifier of (rounds fired
> minus 1), too.
>
>
Except for weapons with extremely high cyclic rates (I'm thinking of
that H&K advanced rifle prototype that fired 3 rounds and
supposedly delayed the recoil till the 3rd round had left the rifle) the
only advantage to a 3 round burst mode is that poorly trained troops
won't be able to burn through all their ammo quickly :) Trained troops can
easily squeeze off small bursts on full auto with no difference in recoil.
Message no. 26
From: arclight@*********.de (Arclight)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 20:16:43 +0200
At 14:12 24.04.2003 -0400, Martin Little wrote:

<snip>

>Except for weapons with extremely high cyclic rates (I'm thinking of
>that H&K advanced rifle prototype that fired 3 rounds and
>supposedly delayed the recoil till the 3rd round had left the rifle)

Named HK G11 ;)

>the
>only advantage to a 3 round burst mode is that poorly trained troops
>won't be able to burn through all their ammo quickly :) Trained troops can
>easily squeeze off small bursts on full auto with no difference in recoil.

You only really need bursts or full auto in CQB, for longer ranged quick
single shots work far better. IMO, of course *g*

Arclight
Message no. 27
From: dreamrhythm@*******.com (Dream Rhythm)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 20:23:55 -0400
>Of course, since in general you only feel recoil after the round has >left
>the barrel of the weapon, the +2 per burst would technically be >correct,
>but then FA-fire would have to have a recoil modifier of (rounds fired
>minus 1), too.

That's the way it works in my games. Recoil modifiers of +2 for first burst
and +5 (total) for the second. FA recoil is +[shots fired -1].

Fortune




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Message no. 28
From: paul@*********.demon.co.uk (Paul Squires)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:26:32 +0100
In message <200304241916.51860.gurth@******.nl>, Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
writes
>Of course, since in general you only feel recoil after the round has left
>the barrel of the weapon, the +2 per burst would technically be correct,
>but then FA-fire would have to have a recoil modifier of (rounds fired
>minus 1), too.
>
I actually thought that was the rule - it certainly provides more
consistency, after all a single shot does not attract a recoil modifier.
--
Paul Squires
paul@*********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 29
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:07:40 +0200
According to Graht, on Thursday 24 April 2003 20:06 the word on the street
was...

> Which at some point I think it did... SR1?

No, in SR1 you rolled for each bullet separately, and autofire was limited
to a number of rounds equal to your skill level plus one. I remember this
was a royal pain in the ass to resolve; rolling for individual rounds
works (sort of) in a game that doesn't have you throwing 4-8 dice per
shot, but not for SR.

> If you want to talk realism however, the first round isn't affected by
> recoil, only the second and third rounds, so shouldn't the recoil rules
> take into account that you aren't any less likely to hit the target with
> one round, and have a chance of hitting the target with more than one
> round?

The house rule used by Marc Renouf and myself works well enough to cover
that: if you roll exactly equal to your skill, you hit with one round, so
it's not affected by recoil :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We'll all take turns. I'll get mine, too.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 30
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Autofire Rules Question
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:15:21 +0200
According to Paul Squires, on Friday 25 April 2003 10:26 the word on the
street was...

> >Of course, since in general you only feel recoil after the round has
> > left the barrel of the weapon, the +2 per burst would technically be
> > correct, but then FA-fire would have to have a recoil modifier of
> > (rounds fired minus 1), too.
>
> I actually thought that was the rule - it certainly provides more
> consistency, after all a single shot does not attract a recoil modifier.

The rule is +1 per round fired, for both bursts and FA, and I agree that
single shots are the odd one out there. For simplicity's sake I've kept it
like that in my games, and though I agree that the posted house rule
(recoil = shots - 1) is more accurate, I think I'll stick with the
standard rule because it makes hits just a little less likely :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We'll all take turns. I'll get mine, too.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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