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Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Availability
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:02:24 -0600
Lady Jestyr wrote:
|
| Applying street index to the price lets you take two off the
| AVAILABILITY, the target number to find it.

As Gurth stated there's a bit of a conflict between the BB and ST.
I'd go with ST's rule. It is easier to find stuff on the street (if
you know what you're doing). The product they buy has more risks
(not only were you in posession of a concealed firearm, but you were
in posession of a stolen firearm, Mr. Urai). I don't mind using the
-2 instead of the +2 in exchange for the ammount of fun I can have
with my players :)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Availability
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:15:28 -0600
Ratinac, Rand wrote:
/
/ Oh, by the way, did anyone ever answer the question about maximum
/ availability for starting characters in SR3?

Maximum rating is 6, maximum availability is 8.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Aewyn)
Subject: Availability
Date: Fri Apr 6 12:50:01 2001
Is it just me, or the rules on avalibility and street etiquette don't make
mch sense?

I mean, the character must make a street etiquette test for each contact
who might help him get the tiems he wants...

Why is it that the character's street etiquette is used to determine if his
fixer has the connections to obtain a certain item?

Or did I misinterpret something?
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lester Ward)
Subject: Availability
Date: Fri Apr 6 13:10:01 2001
> Is it just me, or the rules on availability and street etiquette
> don't make mch sense?

Personally, I've always used considered the availability number as more of
an abstract concept. It's generally easier to role-play the availability of
an item, using the number as a guideline.
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Keith Duthie)
Subject: Availability
Date: Fri Apr 6 13:25:01 2001
On Fri, 6 Apr 2001, Aewyn wrote:

> Is it just me, or the rules on avalibility and street etiquette don't make
> mch sense?

Yes.

> I mean, the character must make a street etiquette test for each contact
> who might help him get the tiems he wants...
>
> Why is it that the character's street etiquette is used to determine if his
> fixer has the connections to obtain a certain item?
>
> Or did I misinterpret something?

I think it's a case of the character trying to convince the fixer to put
some effort into getting stuff. The more difficult it is to get hold of,
the less likely the fixer is to want to go to the trouble of acquiring it.

--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
be mine, let alone anybody elses...
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Walter Scheper)
Subject: Availability
Date: Fri Apr 6 13:25:05 2001
On Fri, 6 Apr 2001 13:13:05 -0400, you wrote:

>Personally, I've always used considered the availability number as more of
>an abstract concept. It's generally easier to role-play the availability of
>an item, using the number as a guideline.
>
>
This brings up an interesting point. I've played with three different GMs,
all of whom completely disregarded the social skills rules as laid out in
the main book. Not that I'm complaining, I do the same thing when I GM. Does
anyone actually play with the book rules? Personally I just don't like the
idea of being able to roll for situations that should require role playing,
but maybe that's just me.

That is all
- Walter
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lester Ward)
Subject: Availability
Date: Fri Apr 6 13:55:01 2001
> all of whom completely disregarded the social skills rules as laid out in
> the main book. ... Does anyone actually play with the book rules?

I tend to use social skills more as a guide for what hints to give a player.
For example, when role-playing a negotiation, I might slip a piece of paper
to a character with a high negotiation skill that says "it occurs to you
that..." and gives some hint to help in the negotiation.

Similarly, I often use etiquette skills for perception sort of things. For
example, if an NPC appears with a particular tattoo, I might slip a note to
a character with high Street Etiquette that "you know that the tattoo means
the person spent time in jail". Or, a character with a high corp etiquette
might notice subtle details that others might not. For example they get a
note that says "you get the impression that person X is after person Y's
job". The point I'm getting at here is that any character, through the
role-playing, might figure certain things out, but I drop hints to people
who have paid for the skills that would make their character more perceptive
to certain things than the player.

Also, if a character says something that would be a huge mistake, but has a
skill to know better, I usually allow retractions. For example, say a player
says something they think is innocuous to an Ares exec, but the statement
contains some hidden insult to Ares. In other words, the character is
insulting the suit without the player being aware of it. If the player had a
high corp etiquette skill, I would say "that statement will probably be
taken as an insult because of such and so. Do you really want to say that?"
They are allowed to retract the statement as if it never happened. (Note, I
don't usually allow people to retract things once said in my game. No, "I
don't say that" stuff; it helps people stay in character.)

One last note: when all this happens, I tend not to roll dice, but rather
just make a judgment call on the situation and the skill level. I try to
avoid dice whenever possible because using dice tends to break character.
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Availability
Date: Fri Apr 6 14:00:01 2001
According to Aewyn, on Fri, 06 Apr 2001 the word on the street was...

> Is it just me, or the rules on avalibility and street etiquette don't make
> mch sense?
>
> I mean, the character must make a street etiquette test for each contact
> who might help him get the tiems he wants...

I play it that the character makes a single roll, representing asking all
contacts who might be able to get hold of the item.

> Why is it that the character's street etiquette is used to determine if his
> fixer has the connections to obtain a certain item?
>
> Or did I misinterpret something?

You could explain the roll as convincing the fixer to go to the trouble to
get it for you. If you say the wrong things, the fixer could think
something along the lines of "I'm not selling to this joker" and so you
don't get what you're looking for even though the fixer may be able to get
hold of it easily enough.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If there are vegetarian hamburgers, why isn't there beef lettuce?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Mark Abbott)
Subject: Availability
Date: Fri Apr 6 14:45:00 2001
>This brings up an interesting point. I've played with three different GMs,
>all of whom completely disregarded the social skills rules as laid out in
>the main book. Not that I'm complaining, I do the same thing when I GM. Does
>anyone actually play with the book rules? Personally I just don't like the
>idea of being able to roll for situations that should require role playing,
>but maybe that's just me.

What I like is for such situations to be roleplayed, but the skills
to make a difference in the outcome. That way the player's social
skills don't interfere too much with the character's capabilities.

I've got a friend who is a long time gaming buddy who just doesn't
speak all that well. He has a very minor speech impediment and he's
just not terribly verbally oriented. Because of this he's just not
very good at verbal persuasion, negotiating, etc. In games it's
reasonable to expect him to roleplay social interactions but not to
have his own verbal limitations affect his characters. A large part
of the fun, for me at least, is playing characters who AREN'T like
me, same for my friend. So, he roleplays such situations and dice
are also involved to help adjudicate the situation as his characters
often have better negotiation/persuasion/etc. skills than he'll ever
have.

Mark
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Webb)
Subject: Availability
Date: Fri Apr 6 15:35:01 2001
According to Aewyn, on Fri, 06 Apr 2001 the word on the street was...

> Is it just me, or the rules on avalibility and street etiquette don't make
> mch sense?
>
(other stuff on making streetwise roll to get guns, as opposed to having
your fixer do it, snipped)

Well, I guess I interpreted that roll completely differently then you guys
did it. I always assumed everyone else did it the same way... basically, the
availability roll you make is if you roll to get it yourself, talking to
various small time hoods and fences.

If you have your fixer get it he makes his check... and then marks up the
price as appropriate.

One thing I do in my game worlds that I know is different is that some
fixers are able to get certain kinds of stuff at different prices. One fixer
has great weapons ties that allow him to get most stuff and sell it to the
pcs at pretty close to the listed price, and still make a profit. So you
have reasons to get relationships with different fixers...
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Walter Scheper)
Subject: Availability
Date: Fri Apr 6 17:10:01 2001
On Fri, 6 Apr 2001 13:57:30 -0400, Lester Ward wrote:

[snip good ideas]
/me ganks Lester's idas

That's actually a very interesting way of handling the situations. Thanks
:).

That is all
- Walter
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Availability
Date: Fri Apr 6 18:25:00 2001
>Why is it that the character's street etiquette is used to determine if his
>fixer has the connections to obtain a certain item?

A contact is just somebody you know. It doesn't mean they don't think you
are a jerk, or have time to cater to your petty needs. If you have a good
ettiquitte, they are more likely to want to help you, and to put a priority
on doing so.

-Mongoose
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: Availability
Date: Sat Apr 7 00:35:01 2001
Records show that at 13:28 on Friday 6/04/01, Walter Scheper scribbled:
>This brings up an interesting point. I've played with three different GMs,
>all of whom completely disregarded the social skills rules as laid out in
>the main book. Not that I'm complaining, I do the same thing when I GM. Does
>anyone actually play with the book rules? Personally I just don't like the
>idea of being able to roll for situations that should require role playing,
>but maybe that's just me.

Both. Always both roleplaying and a skill check according to the book rules
in my games. If the roleplaying is entertaining, clever, convincing or
"good" in some way, I'll add a bonus to the skill check that follows.
However, if a player's roleplaying is not so good I do not penalize the
character in the following skill test. After all, I do not penalize the
skill checks for martial arts, electronics, psychology or any other skill
if a character's player has little or no ability in that skill himself -
and I always require my players to describe what their characters are doing
in their skill checks. Further, what would be the point in spending karma
on developing social skills if the skill levels themselves are not relevant
to the results? I always like to make the players' decisions on where to
spend their hard-earned karma as difficult as possible. :-) Lastly, I
encourage players to create characters different from themselves and this
sometimes includes quiet, introverted players creating socially-adept runners.

Chris
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: Availability
Date: Sat Apr 7 01:30:01 2001
Records show that at 16:58 on Friday 6/04/01, Sebastian Wiers scribbled:
>On Friday 6/04/01, Aewyn stated:
>>Why is it that the character's street etiquette is used to determine if his
>>fixer has the connections to obtain a certain item?
>
>A contact is just somebody you know. It doesn't mean they don't think you
>are a jerk, or have time to cater to your petty needs. If you have a good
>ettiquitte, they are more likely to want to help you, and to put a priority
>on doing so.

Also, a fixer's time is valuable. He probably knows many runners and other
street contacts, and probably has many projects on the boil, his fingers in
many pies. The runner must persuade the fixer, or any contact, to be
willing to devote the time and resources necessary to meet the runner's
needs of the moment at the expense of other activities, and with the
inherent risk all shadow activities carry.

The rule of a fixer or any contact using the character's Etiquette is a
very abstract game mechanic, but it efficiently reflects how much effort
the fixer, talismonger, armorer, etc. is willing to put into working his
contacts to find the item for the player.


Chris
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Simon and Fiona)
Subject: Availability
Date: Sun Apr 8 00:50:00 2001
-----Original Message-----
From: Aewyn <labsyn@*********.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Saturday, April 07, 2001 3:54 AM
Subject: Availability


>
>Is it just me, or the rules on avalibility and street etiquette don't make
>mch sense?
>
>I mean, the character must make a street etiquette test for each contact
>who might help him get the tiems he wants...
>
>Why is it that the character's street etiquette is used to determine if his
>fixer has the connections to obtain a certain item?
>
>Or did I misinterpret something?
>
>

I always used the fixer's stats if the character was going through one The
roll is the fixer pulling in favours, blackmailing, or just plain wheedling
his contacts to get you what you want. After all, you are paying him.
Obviously a fixer would have higher social skills than your average PC, but
rolls don't always succeed. My fixers always add in their cut of the cost
too.
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Availability
Date: Sun Apr 8 21:00:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> This brings up an interesting point. I've played
with three different GMs, all of whom completely
disregarded the social skills rules as laid out in the
main book. Not that I'm complaining, I do the same
thing when I GM. Does anyone actually play with the
book rules? Personally I just don't like the idea of
being able to roll for situations that should require
role playing, but maybe that's just me.
> - Walter

IMNSHO you have to take the ability of your players
into account with such things, Walter. If a complete
social misfit wants to play a face with a Charisma of
10, then it's not exactly fair to say that s/he has to
roleplay out all the situations and penalise him/her
if s/he doesn't do them well enough. The character has
the talents - why should the player have to have them
as well? On the other hand, you shouldn't let the
slickest, most charismatic player you've ever known
dazzle you in every social situation when they're
playing a troll with charisma and intelligence of 1.

IOW, at times you HAVE to take the rules (and/or the
players'/characters' abilities) into account, even if,
like me you generally tend towards as little dice
rolling as possible.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Availability
Date: Wed Jun 13 12:40:01 2001
Gurth writes:

> I'd say they are, else the high availability of some legal items doesn't
> make sense. Say, a simrig -- 8/2 weeks, but legal. If availability wouldn't
> apply to it being purchased legally, then why would it take a black-market
> dealer two weeks to get for you? After all, he could just walk into a store
> and buy it there whenever he's got a spare afternoon.
>
> IMHO, in case of an item bought legally, the availability represents going
> to a bunch of stores searching for it, asking a store to order it, or
> placing a mail order and waiting for that to arrive.

I'd be a bit hesitant to say that, however. Yes, it may take a little time
to find items legitimately, but usually nowhere near the time the
availability would indicate. Take the Ford-Canada Bison. It's a winnebago
(sp?) type thing (like a caravan on wheels, for folks like me who have never
really seen or even envisioned such a vehicle). It has an availability of 8
days! I reckon that in a sprawl the size of Seattle, it'd take about 25
minutes of telecom calling to find a dealer who had one in stock.

It'd take a black market dealer two weeks to find you a simrig because it
was a specialty item, I would assume, like it'd take him 8 days to find a
Ford-Canada Bison. And yes, he could just wander into a shop and buy one,
but then he's not operating an untraceable business anymore is he? For what
it's worth, _you_ could walk in and buy one yourself in theory, but
presumably you do not want to do so for some reason (like you're number 1 on
the Lone Star Most Wanted list :-)), so you go to the black market dealer.
The last thing he wants is to go and buy one, and then 3 days later have it
found on your next murder victim 'cause he sold it straight to you. He's
going to find a hot, traceless one that somebody knocked of from a simsense
studio that they robbed the week before, and fob that off onto you instead.

OTOH, I would also tend to think that there was little point in purchasing
legal items from the black market, unless you have some special
circumstances.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Availability
Date: Wed Jun 13 13:40:01 2001
According to Damion Milliken, on Wed, 13 Jun 2001 the word on the street was...

> I'd be a bit hesitant to say that, however. Yes, it may take a little time
> to find items legitimately, but usually nowhere near the time the
> availability would indicate. Take the Ford-Canada Bison. It's a winnebago
> (sp?) type thing (like a caravan on wheels, for folks like me who have never
> really seen or even envisioned such a vehicle). It has an availability of 8
> days! I reckon that in a sprawl the size of Seattle, it'd take about 25
> minutes of telecom calling to find a dealer who had one in stock.

For vehicles, I wouldn't say that too fast. The dealer may have one in the
showroom, but if you want one, AFAIK they'll probably order another from
the factory/importer for you. Add to that the fact that RVs aren't made in
huge quantities, and I'd say you're still looking at a reasonable waiting
period before you have your vehicle. (Not to mention that vehicle
availability is decided by the wrong method, IMO -- you can't, as the
official method does, simply base it on catalog price; a top-of-the-line
BMW is much easier to get hold of than a Ferrari that costs about the
same.)

But that's using a single item class to make a point which might or might
not apply to other classes. Generally speaking, IMHO it makes sense to
apply the availability time to all purchases, whether legal or on the
black market. Specialty items will take longer to find for any number of
reasons, and those are, for the most part, exactly the ones that have high
availability times.

> OTOH, I would also tend to think that there was little point in purchasing
> legal items from the black market, unless you have some special
> circumstances.

Or because some are much cheaper there. If you know someone selling music
chips from the trunk of a car for 15 nuyen each while in a music store they
cost 20 nuyen, you can buy 25% more of them for a given amount of money.
Not everyone will do this (just like today, not everyone will copy CDs) but
those with the connections might very well do.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Conformity is our tragedy
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Availability
Date: Wed Jun 13 15:35:01 2001
Gurth writes:

> For vehicles, I wouldn't say that too fast. The dealer may have one in the
> showroom, but if you want one, AFAIK they'll probably order another from
> the factory/importer for you. Add to that the fact that RVs aren't made in
> huge quantities, and I'd say you're still looking at a reasonable waiting
> period before you have your vehicle. (Not to mention that vehicle
> availability is decided by the wrong method, IMO -- you can't, as the
> official method does, simply base it on catalog price; a top-of-the-line
> BMW is much easier to get hold of than a Ferrari that costs about the
> same.)

Never having purchased an RV or top of the line sports car, I couldn't
disagree with you. However, it does seem a little unreasonable that you
wouldn't be able to walk into a car dealership in a ritzy part of Bellvue in
Seattle and pick yourself up a limo, for instance, which also have high
availabilities. If you wander in there and say "I want that limo", and have
the funds ready, I doubt very much that they're going to say "sorry, sir,
you'll have to wait two weeks for one to be shipped over from Germany for
you".

I have to agree with the vehicle availability problem, though - Steel Lynx
military combat drones, thanks to their mere 10k price tag, have an
availability of 2! You could just about pick them up in a pub of a Friday
night! Very silly.

> But that's using a single item class to make a point which might or might
> not apply to other classes. Generally speaking, IMHO it makes sense to
> apply the availability time to all purchases, whether legal or on the
> black market. Specialty items will take longer to find for any number of
> reasons, and those are, for the most part, exactly the ones that have high
> availability times.

For specialty items, I suppose that this might be a valid argument. But I
do feel, however, that it would take relatively little time to locate a
specialty supplier, especially in a large megaplex that's a nexus for trade
like Seattle. A NAV DAT GPS has an availability of 6/48 hours, for
instance. If you're lucky, you'll find one in 2 days, providing you roll a
6. Wander into any good camping store or electronics shop, and you'll
likely get one in about 2 hours. OTOH, I'd say 6/48 hours is pretty fitting
for locating a hot one providing that you have the right contacts. Legally
locating specialty items would take a little longer, I agree, but it still
shouldn't take all that time! I could be convinced for items like cyberware
scanners, as suppliers probably do not keep them in stock and will have to
order them in for you, however.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Availability
Date: Thu Jun 14 06:25:14 2001
According to Damion Milliken, on Wed, 13 Jun 2001 the word on the street
was...

> Never having purchased an RV or top of the line sports car, I couldn't
> disagree with you.

Neither have I, but I was basing the examples on what I've heard, read and
seen on TV :)

> However, it does seem a little unreasonable that you
> wouldn't be able to walk into a car dealership in a ritzy part of Bellvue in
> Seattle and pick yourself up a limo, for instance, which also have high
> availabilities. If you wander in there and say "I want that limo", and
have
> the funds ready, I doubt very much that they're going to say "sorry, sir,
> you'll have to wait two weeks for one to be shipped over from Germany for
> you".

Certainly, but most people don't do that, in which case the availability
does make sense again.

> I have to agree with the vehicle availability problem, though - Steel Lynx
> military combat drones, thanks to their mere 10k price tag, have an
> availability of 2! You could just about pick them up in a pub of a Friday
> night! Very silly.

Availability of all items should be based on how desirable the item is to
own, rather than what it costs or actually is. There's a similar problem
with legalities, BTW, in that the target number for these is based on what
the item _is_ rather than what it _appears_ to be -- pistols are a good
example: if you have a hold-out that looks like a heavy pistol, it will
still have a legality TN (reflecting how quickly the cops will harrass you
over it) of 10. Logic says that they will see it and think it's a heavy
pistol, so the TN should be 6. Anyway...

> For specialty items, I suppose that this might be a valid argument. But I
> do feel, however, that it would take relatively little time to locate a
> specialty supplier, especially in a large megaplex that's a nexus for trade
> like Seattle.

The only real solution would be to give two availability ratings: one for
obtaining the item legally, and one for going to the black market for it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Conformity is our tragedy
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Availability
Date: Thu Jun 14 06:30:01 2001
On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 05:41:42 +1000 (EST) Damion Milliken
<dam01@***.edu.au> writes:
<SNIP>
> Never having purchased an RV or top of the line sports car, I
> couldn't
> disagree with you. However, it does seem a little unreasonable that
> you
> wouldn't be able to walk into a car dealership in a ritzy part of
> Bellvue in
> Seattle and pick yourself up a limo, for instance, which also have
> high
> availabilities. If you wander in there and say "I want that limo",
> and have
> the funds ready, I doubt very much that they're going to say "sorry,
> sir,
> you'll have to wait two weeks for one to be shipped over from
> Germany for
> you".
<SNIP>

Well, I don't think that's what Availability represents. It's more, IMO,
saying "I want a Red Honda Civic with AC, stereo, and a sunroof. How
long?" I went shopping for a car a while back and apparently silver Honda
Civics were a bit in high demand, at least in Houstonm TX. I couldn't get
a silver one the day we agreed on a price. I had to come back for it. If
I wanted a red one, I could drive off with it ... That's what, IMO, what
Availability is to me.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Availability
Date: Thu Jun 14 06:40:01 2001
On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:37:38 +0200 Gurth <Gurth@******.nl> writes:
<SNIP>
> There's a similar
> problem
> with legalities, BTW, in that the target number for these is based
> on what
> the item _is_ rather than what it _appears_ to be -- pistols are a
> good
> example: if you have a hold-out that looks like a heavy pistol, it
> will
> still have a legality TN (reflecting how quickly the cops will
> harrass you
> over it) of 10. Logic says that they will see it and think it's a
> heavy
> pistol, so the TN should be 6. Anyway...
<SNIP>

I always thought the target number was if the item was recognized for
what it was. In your example of mistaken identity, the cop would think it
was Brand X's Heavy Pistol and would use Brand X's Heavy Pistol's
legality target number to see if anybody gets harrassed.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Availability
Date: Thu Jun 14 10:25:06 2001
dghost@****.com writes:

> Well, I don't think that's what Availability represents. It's more, IMO,
> saying "I want a Red Honda Civic with AC, stereo, and a sunroof. How
> long?" I went shopping for a car a while back and apparently silver Honda
> Civics were a bit in high demand, at least in Houstonm TX. I couldn't get
> a silver one the day we agreed on a price. I had to come back for it. If
> I wanted a red one, I could drive off with it ... That's what, IMO, what
> Availability is to me.

This makes sense, but it isn't really represented as such in the rule,
unfortunately. Gurth's idea of differing legal/illegal Availabilities is
about the only way to really get around the problem, I think. OTOH,
although I admit that it sometimes nerfs me off a little, on the whole they
are usually close enough that it doesn't really matter all that much
anyway. :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Availability
Date: Thu Jun 14 10:40:01 2001
dghost@****.com writes:

> Gurth writes:
>
> > There's a similar problem with legalities, BTW, in that the target
> > number for these is based on what the item _is_ rather than what it
> > _appears_ to be -- pistols are a good example: if you have a hold-out
> > that looks like a heavy pistol, it will still have a legality TN
> > (reflecting how quickly the cops will harrass you over it) of 10. Logic
> > says that they will see it and think it's a heavy pistol, so the TN
> > should be 6. Anyway...

Would it? I wouldn't have neccessarily thought so. The game sets the
classes for items (pistol, rifle, class C controlled cyberware, etc), but I
don't recall it actually setting the TNs except for a guideline that low TNs
equalled higher enforcement. Some of the burst fire heavy pistols have
Legality codes of 2-Pistol (Class D?), while the normal semi-auto heavy
pistols have 6-Pistol. The burst fire light pistols have Legalities of 5-G
(automatic weapon), while the rest of the semi-auto ones have something like
8-Pistol. I think this is valid, because of what I think the Legality TN
represents...

> I always thought the target number was if the item was recognized for
> what it was. In your example of mistaken identity, the cop would think it
> was Brand X's Heavy Pistol and would use Brand X's Heavy Pistol's
> legality target number to see if anybody gets harrassed.

I always thought that the Legality TN was the TN the police officer had to
roll with his Police Procedures skill to determine if the item in question
was actually illegal in this jurisdiction/locality or not. Either that or
it was the TN he had to roll against to determine whether or not he cared
enough (or was in a bad enough mood) to want to bust the character's hoop
over. So those above mentioned burst fire light pistols with a Legality of
5-G were simply known items. They were models that were commonly known among
law enforcement personnel as being illegal, and were thus more easily
recognisable (TN 5 rather than 8).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Availability
Date: Thu Jun 14 14:05:01 2001
According to dghost@****.com, on Thu, 14 Jun 2001 the word on the street was...

> I always thought the target number was if the item was recognized for
> what it was. In your example of mistaken identity, the cop would think it
> was Brand X's Heavy Pistol and would use Brand X's Heavy Pistol's
> legality target number to see if anybody gets harrassed.

SR3 page 273, at the top of the right-hand column: "In any casual
encounter with law enforcement officials [bit snipped for brevity] make a
test using the officer's Security or Police Procedures Skill with the
restriction level [the first number in the legality -Gurth] as the target
number. [some more snipped] If the test fails, the officer notices no
improprieties. With 1 success, the officer is aware of the situation, but
will not make the effort to arrest the offender [yet more snipped]. Any
additional successes indicate the officer will press the issue"

To me, that indicates that the restriction level is a measure for how easy
it is to identify the item as something that warrants police attention,
either because the cops realize what it is, or because of
misidentification. That last factor hardly ever seems to feature in SR
stats, though -- those seem to assume that the test is there for the
officer to identify the item for what it is, not what it appears to be.
Logically speaking, though, a weapon that looks big and mean is going to
bring police down on you much faster than one that looks like a toy gun,
even if their actual capabilities are the other way around.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Conformity is our tragedy
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Availability
Date: Thu Jun 14 14:05:14 2001
According to Damion Milliken, on Thu, 14 Jun 2001 the word on the street was...

> So those above mentioned burst fire light pistols with a Legality of 5-G
> were simply known items. They were models that were commonly known among
> law enforcement personnel as being illegal, and were thus more easily
> recognisable (TN 5 rather than 8).

That is exactly my point. The legality rules seem to assume that police
officers make flawless IDs of anything they encounter; this just does not
happen (how many people got shot by police recently for taking their wallets
out of their pockets?) especially not with things that look so much alike
as firearms.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Conformity is our tragedy
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject: Availability
Date: Thu Jun 14 21:15:01 2001
On Jun 13, 1:52pm, Gurth wrote:
> According to Damion Milliken, on Wed, 13 Jun 2001 the word on the
> street was...
> > OTOH, I would also tend to think that there was little point in purchasing
> > legal items from the black market, unless you have some special
> > circumstances.
>
> Or because some are much cheaper there. If you know someone selling music
> chips from the trunk of a car for 15 nuyen each while in a music store they
> cost 20 nuyen, you can buy 25% more of them for a given amount of money.
> Not everyone will do this (just like today, not everyone will copy CDs) but
> those with the connections might very well do.

Quite. Items that are illegal due to being stolen, copied without
permission (distinct from theft because it leaves the original owner
still with the item), etcetera are going to be a common item on the
black market, making below-1 Street Indexes a lot more common than
most SR material seems to indicate. In general, unless an item would
be illegal (or would be so without a permit), would involve
considerable tracing in normal use (e.g., vehicles requiring
licensing), or would require licensing to install (e.g., most
cyberwear/bioware, even if it's perfectly legal to _own_), it should
have a Street Index below WildSide for CP2020 has a good review of
this subject.

-Allen

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu
Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Availability
Date: Fri Jun 15 05:30:00 2001
According to Allen Smith, on Fri, 15 Jun 2001 the word on the street was...

> Quite. Items that are illegal due to being stolen, copied without
> permission (distinct from theft because it leaves the original owner
> still with the item)

Metallica might object to not calling that theft ;)

> etcetera are going to be a common item on the
> black market, making below-1 Street Indexes a lot more common than
> most SR material seems to indicate.

Agreed. There are some strange street indices in the SR books, though --
why does an Ares Predator cost only half its normal price on the street,
for example, while most other pistols are (relatively) more expensive?
There must be some way in which the black marketeers are getting these
guns cheaply.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Conformity is our tragedy
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Availability
Date: Fri Jun 15 05:45:01 2001
On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Gurth wrote:

> Agreed. There are some strange street indices in the SR books, though --
> why does an Ares Predator cost only half its normal price on the street,
> for example, while most other pistols are (relatively) more expensive?
> There must be some way in which the black marketeers are getting these
> guns cheaply.

I thought about this. How about off of the bodies of all the wannabie
shadowrunners? :-)



--
jconstable@*****.com
"Stupidity got us into this, why can't it get us out?" - John Valeu
Message no. 30
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Availability
Date: Fri Jun 15 06:30:00 2001
>According to Allen Smith, on Fri, 15 Jun 2001 the word on the street was...

>> Quite. Items that are illegal due to being stolen, copied without
>> permission (distinct from theft because it leaves the original owner
>> still with the item)

>Metallica might object to not calling that theft ;)

>> etcetera are going to be a common item on the
>> black market, making below-1 Street Indexes a lot more common than
>> most SR material seems to indicate.

>Agreed. There are some strange street indices in the SR books, though --
>why does an Ares Predator cost only half its normal price on the street,
>for example, while most other pistols are (relatively) more expensive?
>There must be some way in which the black marketeers are getting these
>guns cheaply.

Maybe since the Pred's a name recognized gun, everyone buys it. And since
everyone buys it (and a lot of kids with guns have big mouths and tend to
get geeked), maybe the market's flooded with "Slightly used" Preds. Or
maybe there's a lot of copies that are of the same quality.
Message no. 31
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Strago)
Subject: Availability
Date: Fri Jun 15 09:40:01 2001
Valeu John EMFA wrote:

> <SNIP>
> >Agreed. There are some strange street indices in the SR books, though --
> >why does an Ares Predator cost only half its normal price on the street,
> >for example, while most other pistols are (relatively) more expensive?
> >There must be some way in which the black marketeers are getting these
> >guns cheaply.
>
> Maybe since the Pred's a name recognized gun, everyone buys it. And since
> everyone buys it (and a lot of kids with guns have big mouths and tend to
> get geeked), maybe the market's flooded with "Slightly used" Preds. Or
> maybe there's a lot of copies that are of the same quality.

OK, so here's another question: how many (percentage-wise) "slightly used" guns
that are cheaper would be weapons used in committing a crime, say a homicide?

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

Down with the Moral Majority
-Green Day
Message no. 32
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Availability
Date: Fri Jun 15 14:15:00 2001
Gurth writes:

> To me, that indicates that the restriction level is a measure for how easy
> it is to identify the item as something that warrants police attention,
> either because the cops realize what it is, or because of
> misidentification. That last factor hardly ever seems to feature in SR
> stats, though -- those seem to assume that the test is there for the
> officer to identify the item for what it is, not what it appears to be.
> Logically speaking, though, a weapon that looks big and mean is going to
> bring police down on you much faster than one that looks like a toy gun,
> even if their actual capabilities are the other way around.

I think that's probably OK. If you have a Light Pistol that looks like a
Rocket Launcher, then it'd probably have a Legality of something like 2P-E.
With a Restriction Level of 2, you're very likely to get busted. But the
thing _is_ still a Light Pistol, so it has a Restriction Category of E,
pistols.

OTOH, if you have a Rocket Launcher that looks like a Light Pistol (OK, "what
am I smoking", I know ;-)), then it'd probably have a Legality of something
like 8-K. There wouldn't be much chance of you getting picked up from it,
but if you did, you'd be in trouble because the penalties for Military
Weapons (Class K) are pretty stiff.

There just aren't many such examples in the SR rules, I guess.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 33
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Availability
Date: Fri Jun 15 14:25:01 2001
Gurth writes:

> Agreed. There are some strange street indices in the SR books, though --
> why does an Ares Predator cost only half its normal price on the street,
> for example, while most other pistols are (relatively) more expensive?
> There must be some way in which the black marketeers are getting these
> guns cheaply.

I always assumed that was because the weapon was common. If you're looking
for hot car parts, they'll be cheaper for common cars than rare cars,
because common cars are more often stolen (because they're common ;-)), thus
there are more hot parts for them available. I'd say that a large supply of
any item will drive its price down, and common second hand or stolen
firearms probably adhere to this theory, too. There aren't too many
Morrissey Alta's on the black market, because there just aren't too many of
them on the legitimate market either (seriously, who'd buy a 1,200 nuyen
pistol with a clip of 12?). So if you want to find one, it's going to be a
rarer item, and therefore cost more.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 34
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Availability
Date: Fri Jun 15 14:35:01 2001
Strago writes:

> OK, so here's another question: how many (percentage-wise) "slightly used"
> guns that are cheaper would be weapons used in committing a crime, say a
> homicide?

Hmm, good question. It would depend upon how many guns you would think were
from stolen shipments, a common organised crime black market operation, and
other sources such as looting (of shops, dead opponents, etc.). It'd be
difficult to say. Certainly some such weapons would be flogged off to a
fixer of other connection because they linked to a known crime, and such
items would just be resold illegally like any other. It'd be a nice
potentially problematic story element for a PC ("Officer, it wasn't me, I
bought it from a fence!" "Sure, buddy, just like you didn't pop three rounds
from it through the head of Mr Juniko, Mitsuhama Finance Executive.")

It may depend upon the connections of the fixer or other NPC that the
character purchased the weapon through. Fixers with organised crime
connections might have a high percentage of "clean" weapons that are just
from pirated shipments, while those with many gang or shadowrunner
connections might be more likely to have "dirty" weapons that were used to
commit some crime or another.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 35
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Availability
Date: Sat Jun 16 07:20:01 2001
According to Damion Milliken, on Fri, 15 Jun 2001 the word on the street was...

> I think that's probably OK. If you have a Light Pistol that looks like a
> Rocket Launcher, then it'd probably have a Legality of something like 2P-E.
> With a Restriction Level of 2, you're very likely to get busted. But the
> thing _is_ still a Light Pistol, so it has a Restriction Category of E,
> pistols.

What I'm trying to say, is that that is exactly the legality code it
_doesn't_ have. Compare the picture of the Ares Predator in the SRII main
rules (or in the hands of the Weapon Specialist in the SR3 rules) to that
of the Browning Ultra-Power in the Street Samurai Catalog. Which one would
you consider to be more threatening?

Exactly. Now check their legality codes...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Conformity is our tragedy
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 36
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Availability
Date: Sat Jun 16 11:35:06 2001
Gurth writes:

> What I'm trying to say, is that that is exactly the legality code it
> _doesn't_ have. Compare the picture of the Ares Predator in the SRII main
> rules (or in the hands of the Weapon Specialist in the SR3 rules) to that
> of the Browning Ultra-Power in the Street Samurai Catalog. Which one would
> you consider to be more threatening?
>
> Exactly. Now check their legality codes...

All of the weapons in the same classes in the base SR set seem to have been
given pretty much the same Legality: 10P-E for Hold Outs, 8P-E for Light
Pistols, 6P-E for Heavy Pistols, etc. I guess whoever at FASA got the job of
making them up didn't put all that much effort into it... :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 37
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Availability
Date: Sat Jun 16 13:30:06 2001
According to Damion Milliken, on Sat, 16 Jun 2001 the word on the street was...

> All of the weapons in the same classes in the base SR set seem to have been
> given pretty much the same Legality: 10P-E for Hold Outs, 8P-E for Light
> Pistols, 6P-E for Heavy Pistols, etc. I guess whoever at FASA got the job of
> making them up didn't put all that much effort into it... :-)

Finally :) That's what I've been trying, and not succeeding very well, to
explain for the past three days :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Conformity is our tragedy
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Further Reading

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