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Message no. 1
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:50:10 +0300
This is a Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...

One of my players made this baby after some time of trying...
Check it out and tell me what you think...
(just let me point out the cost of 407100 nuyen and what it can do in
comparison)


"Wet Death 3-666"


Handling Speed Accel Body Armour Sig
-1/10 260 14 5 18 8
Autonav Pilot Sensor Cargo Load
0 3 4 1.5 507
Seating 4 Setup/Breakdown 0
Entry 2 Landing/Takeoff N
Fuel Diesel ( 250 liters ) Economy 4 km/liter
DP Cost 3666 Cost 407100 ¥
Template Van ReferenceThe Shop
Acceleration Increase (Level 6)
Handling Improvement (Level 2)
Engine Customization (Level 11)
Engine Customization: Speed (Level 6)
Engine Customization: Acceleration (Level 2)
Active Thermal Masking (Level 2)
Passive Aural Masking (Level 4)
Load Increase (Level 100)
Increased Cargo Space (CF 10)

EnviroSeal (engine) ( 0)
EnviroSeal (water) ( 0)
Life Support Systems (Man-hours 100)
Amphibious Operation Package (Level 3)
Water Speed : 45

Features Concealed Armour (Armour 10)(Concilability 6)
Composite Armour (Armour 8)
Reinforced Body ( 0)

Power Amplifiers (Level 10)
Sensors (Level 4)
Datajack port ( 0)
Remote Pilot Advanced Programming (Rating 3)
Rigger Adaptation ( 0)

Drive-by-Wire (Level 3)
Structural Agility (Level 3)
(+3 to Reaction / +3 to Control pool)

1 Remote PopUp Turret (Small)
Gunnery Recoil Adjusters 9 for the Small Turret
(The turret was a later modificatios so as to keep the Mark up
modifier low. If they were set in the construction they would add the
security modifier that would double the price. The Recoil Adj was also a
modification.)

Btw the player is a mage that is also a decker that is also a rigger
(talk about hybrids)
and "Yes!He is the most obscene power gamer I have ever seen" You should
see what he's done with the free loa spirits he has bound...

the wiz
Message no. 2
From: GuayII@***.com GuayII@***.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 03:01:14 EDT
In a message dated 00-05-30 02:48:38 EDT, you write:

<< Sig 8 >>

How'd the sig get up to 8?

Cash
Message no. 3
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 00:07:23 -0700 (PDT)
> One of my players made this baby after some time of
trying... Check it out and tell me what you think...
(just let me point out the cost of 407100 nuyen and
what it can do in comparison)

I think it's obscene...

But that's just me.

> "Wet Death 3-666"
>
> Handling Speed Accel Body Armour Sig
> -1/10 260 14 5 18 8

Okay, point one. I wouldn't allow the handling to be
reduced below 0 as a base. I think that's the rule,
but even if it isn't, I wouldn't allow it.

Point two - that signature CAN'T be right - or if it
is, it can't be the BASE signature. Is that the
signature with the aural masking in effect?

> Autonav Pilot Sensor Cargo Load
> 0 3 4 1.5 507

Point three - my lord, what a moron. Why would you
have this horrendous assault vehicle and absolutely no
space to store gear?

> Seating 4 Setup/Breakdown 0
> Entry 2 Landing/Takeoff N
> Fuel Diesel ( 250 liters )
> Economy 4 km/liter
> DP Cost 3666 Cost 407100
> ¥
> Template Van ReferenceThe
> Shop
> Acceleration Increase (Level 6)
> Handling Improvement (Level 2)
> Engine Customization (Level 11)
> Engine Customization: Speed (Level 6)
> Engine Customization: Acceleration
> (Level 2)

Okay, I'd be screaming here. I would roll each and
every test required for the customisation and
RIGOUROUSLY enforce the accumulated stress. This is an
engine customised beyond recognition! This is on a par
with putting a warp drive in a toy truck.

> Active Thermal Masking (Level 2)
> Passive Aural Masking (Level 4)
> Load Increase (Level 100)
> Increased Cargo Space (CF 10)

*Doc' boggles at the stupidity again*

> EnviroSeal (engine) ( 0)
> EnviroSeal (water) ( 0)
> Life Support Systems (Man-hours 100)
> Amphibious Operation Package (Level 3)
> Water Speed : 45
>
> Features Concealed Armour (Armour
> 10)(Concilability 6)
> Composite Armour (Armour 8)

Can you do that? There's no way I'd allow someone to
put both concealed and obvious armour on the same
vehicle.

> Reinforced Body ( 0)

Well, I'm glad that this is 0 at least, considering
it's no longer allowable as of Rigger 2.

> Power Amplifiers (Level 10)
> Sensors (Level 4)
> Datajack port ( 0)
> Remote Pilot Advanced Programming
> (Rating 3)
> Rigger Adaptation ( 0)
>
> Drive-by-Wire (Level 3)
> Structural Agility (Level 3)
> (+3 to Reaction / +3 to Control
pool)
>
> 1 Remote PopUp Turret (Small)
> Gunnery Recoil Adjusters 9 for the Small
Turret
> (The turret was a later modificatios so as
to keep the Mark up modifier low. If they were set in
the construction they would add the security modifier
that would double the price. The Recoil Adj was also a
modification.)

*sigh* Power-gamer all right.

> Btw the player is a mage that is also a decker that
is also a rigger (talk about hybrids) and "Yes!He is
the most obscene power gamer I have ever seen" You
should see what he's done with the free loa spirits he
has bound...
> the wiz

I'd rather not. Personally, I wouldn't allow this
without severe modification - or I'd take the first
opportunity I had to blow it up if he'd really pissed
me off. :)

*Doc' packs the C12 in under Power-Boy's chair good
and tight...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 4
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 04:55:18 -0500
On Tue, 30 May 2000 09:50:10 +0300 Manolis Skoulikas
<great_worm@*****.com> writes:
> This is a Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...

Btw, saying it's a boat and a sub is redundant ;)

<SNIP>
> Handling Speed Accel Body Armour Sig
> -1/10 260 14 5 18 8
<SNIP>

The Sig is incorrect. It's 2 in general. +2 vrs thermal *when the active
thermal masking is engaged*. +4 vrs aural (sound) detection. All in all,
this bugger is still a sitting duck.

> Engine Customization (Level 11)
> Engine Customization: Speed (Level 6)
> Engine Customization: Acceleration (Level 2)

Where'd the other 3 levels of engine customization go?

> Active Thermal Masking (Level 2)
> Passive Aural Masking (Level 4)
<SNIP>

This was not included in R2.

> Reinforced Body ( 0)
<SNIP>

Nor this.

> Power Amplifiers (Level 10)
> Sensors (Level 4)
<SNIP>

No ECM/ECCM?

>
> 1 Remote PopUp Turret (Small)
> Gunnery Recoil Adjusters 9 for the Small Turret
<SNIP>

What's mounted in the turret?

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 5
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 05:06:24 -0500
On Tue, 30 May 2000 00:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Rand
Ratinac?<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
> > One of my players made this baby after some time of
> trying... Check it out and tell me what you think...
> (just let me point out the cost of 407100 nuyen and
> what it can do in comparison)

> I think it's obscene...
>
> But that's just me.

No it isn't :) Who'd want a submersible van anyway? ;)

> > "Wet Death 3-666"
> >
> > Handling Speed Accel Body Armour Sig
> > -1/10 260 14 5 18 8
<SNIP>
> > Autonav Pilot Sensor Cargo Load
> > 0 3 4 1.5 507

> Point three - my lord, what a moron. Why would you
> have this horrendous assault vehicle and absolutely no
> space to store gear?

No stowage area AND no electronic warfare gear ... tsk. tsk.

<SNIP>
> Okay, I'd be screaming here. I would roll each and
> every test required for the customisation and
> RIGOUROUSLY enforce the accumulated stress. This is an
> engine customised beyond recognition! This is on a par
> with putting a warp drive in a toy truck.

At design time, roll 6 dice vrs a T# of 6. One success means no stress
points.

<SNIP>
> > Features Concealed Armour (Armour
> > 10)(Concilability 6)
> > Composite Armour (Armour 8)

> Can you do that? There's no way I'd allow someone to
> put both concealed and obvious armour on the same
> vehicle.

It's not technically allowed but why not? Someone examing the vehicle who
doesn't make a perception (6) test sees "only" 8 points of armor ...

> > Reinforced Body ( 0)

> Well, I'm glad that this is 0 at least, considering
> it's no longer allowable as of Rigger 2.

Look again. The 0 means that there is no level associated. This thing has
a body of 5 instead of a body of 4. He probably shoul've gone with a
medium/heavy transport or APC chassis and no concealed armor (he lost 20
CF right there!) ...

<SNIP>
> I'd rather not. Personally, I wouldn't allow this
> without severe modification - or I'd take the first
> opportunity I had to blow it up if he'd really pissed
> me off. :)

I'd slap a military multiplier on this bugger. The rules may say that
it's a civilian vehicle but common sense says otherwise.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 6
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:45:07 +0200
According to Alfredo B Alves, at 5:06 on 30 May 00, the word on the street
was...

> No it isn't :) Who'd want a submersible van anyway? ;)

One guy I used to play SR with did... His character bought an Ares
Roadmaster and customized the hell out of it, including making it
watertight and with something like 50 hours of life support; he even went
as far as to put a convertible roof onto it... (Before anyone shouts
"Impossible!" I'll say that IMHO it can be done. It wouldn't be easy, but
it _can_ be done.)

It also had something like 15 points of concealed armor, which took up
most of the CF available in the truck. He was not pleased when the Salish-
Shidhe Council border guards pulled the whole thing out and cut it to
pieces because they suspected him of smuggling something in the obvious
double walls of the load area...

Then there were the oversized wheels and bumpers, the 16 headlights, the
hatch in the floor (with firmpoint located near it) ...

Not that he ever did anything useful with this truck, except brag about it
and spend more money on it, so I had no real complaints about it as a GM.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: Zebulin Magby zebulingod@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 10:46:29 -0700 (PDT)
> EnviroSeal (engine) ( 0)
> EnviroSeal (water) ( 0)
> Life Support Systems (Man-hours 100)
> Amphibious Operation Package (Level 3)
> Water Speed : 45
>

Um, something that people may have overlooked here, wouldn't you also
need a gas-seal? I mean, it keeps gas from coming in, but wouldn't it
also work the other way? Without it, wouldn't gas(air) leak out? I
haven't looked at Rigger2, yet, but I wouldn't allow this vehicle in
my game, even if it is made by the rules.

-Zebulin-Magby-
ICQ: 21932827
SRGC: SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ !B UB IE+
RN+ STK++ W- dk+ ri++ m-(d++) gm++ M- P++

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Message no. 8
From: JKeith Henry neojudas@******************.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:52:01 -0500
From: "Manolis Skoulikas" <great_worm@*****.com>
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...


> This is a Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...

Hmmm... I'll get back to this maybe..

> One of my players made this baby after some time of trying...
> Check it out and tell me what you think...
> (just let me point out the cost of 407100 nuyen and what it can do in
> comparison)

I'm not going to do what Alfredo decided to do here, as I think he missed
the points of what makes something what classification....(more below)

> "Wet Death 3-666"

Well, at least the name is accurate.

> Handling Speed Accel Body Armour Sig
> -1/10 260 14 5 18 8

Now unlike Doc', I do believe you can have a "base handling" below a
"0",
you just can't perform a test with a target number below a "2". We call it
redundant systems.

> Autonav Pilot Sensor Cargo Load
> 0 3 4 1.5 507

Now I do have to agree, the Cargo thing seems ... odd (yeah, that's a nicely
plain word for it).

> Seating 4 Setup/Breakdown 0
> Entry 2 Landing/Takeoff N
> Fuel Diesel ( 250 liters ) Economy 4 km/liter
> DP Cost 3666 Cost 407100 ¥
> Template Van ReferenceThe Shop

Again, I'm not really certain here, but for some reason I think you must be
using a different version of the Shop than others, because I've tried doing
this using that program and it kept "stalling" somewhere ...

> Acceleration Increase (Level 6)
> Handling Improvement (Level 2)
> Engine Customization (Level 11)
> Engine Customization: Speed (Level 6)
> Engine Customization: Acceleration (Level 2)

Oh, wow ... I am impressed. This does what to the cost. Base x (1.25 + (.5
x 18)), which makes it a [60 (Van-Chassis) + 35 (Van-PP)] x 10.25 (DP mod).
I'm just making sure I'm following this here. That's 973.75 now, yes??? (I
keep thinking my math is off). Just wanting to keep this straight, because
the new value for the template is now (the system doesn't seperate the cost
mods between Power Plant and Chassis after all) ...

> Active Thermal Masking (Level 2)
> Passive Aural Masking (Level 4)

Would have been nice to have seen this last one in R2, I have to admit.
Maybe later...

> Load Increase (Level 100)

Okay, so it can now carry one more person (this is actually a grip on the
load bearing capacities of engines and chassis in general).

> Increased Cargo Space (CF 10)

Ah, two chairs. Okay.

> EnviroSeal (engine) ( 0)
> EnviroSeal (water) ( 0)
> Life Support Systems (Man-hours 100)

100 Man Hours for how many people??? If it's normally one, this is cool.
More than that, .... hmmm.... claustrophobia given the relatively little
amount of space and passenger design.

> Amphibious Operation Package (Level 3)
> Water Speed : 45

Oh now this has always irked me, just because this is NOT how hydrodynamics
works. BUT, by the rules, yeah, this works.

> Features Concealed Armour (Armour 10)(Concilability 6)
> Composite Armour (Armour 8)

Okay, Alfredo ... Doc', pay attention. Right *HERE* is where that Military
Modifier comes into play. Any concealed armor is security or better, Armor
values above "security value" are also military (so that rating 10 qualifies
automatically).

> Reinforced Body ( 0)

Uhm, erm... what is this????? We have stuff like this in our games, but
that's only because we adapted ideas from Man & Machine.... I haven't
checked RBB yet, is that where this is from???

> Power Amplifiers (Level 10)

Ever want another excuse for Security to Military levels????

> Sensors (Level 4)
> Datajack port ( 0)
> Remote Pilot Advanced Programming (Rating 3)
> Rigger Adaptation ( 0)

Hmmm ... this is kind of cute from mine own POV, it has a Pilot Rating, but
not an Autonav rating....

> Drive-by-Wire (Level 3)
> Structural Agility (Level 3)
> (+3 to Reaction / +3 to Control pool)

Yet another reason to get into Security or better.

> 1 Remote PopUp Turret (Small)

GUARANTEE it is now Security or better.

> Gunnery Recoil Adjusters 9 for the Small Turret

GUARANTEE it is now Military or better. Why? Because no security-grade
vehicular weapons require 9 points of vehicular recoil compensation.
Remember that thing about halving recoil on vehicles???? The 9 points comes
after that...

> (The turret was a later modificatios so as to keep the Mark up
> modifier low. If they were set in the construction they would add the
> security modifier that would double the price. The Recoil Adj was also a
> modification.)

Ah, neat stunt. This would have earned the guy intelligence karma from me.

> Btw the player is a mage that is also a decker that is also a rigger
> (talk about hybrids)
> and "Yes!He is the most obscene power gamer I have ever seen" You should
> see what he's done with the free loa spirits he has bound...

No thanks .... the nuke'm from orbit glow can be seen from here...
thankyouverymuch....

Manoulis, quit doing us all a favor and defending the actions of your
players or yourself with statements like "Yes!He is the most obscene power
gamer I have ever seen" .... it doesn't matter if he is or isn't really.
If he's having fun, who really gives a rat's ass what he is.

And as for the overall concept, it is a nice one actually, but IMO very
poorly planned out and even more poorly guided through or checked for
situations that go beyond the "Common Sense" barrier. We've had numerous
vans and related ground-craft of this nature in our games here, merely
because of the "coolness" factor that they create. The designer-player
seemed to get one or more tricks into it (the adding the turret later for
one), but didn't seem to be very continuous (not using APC or Transport
first instead of Van like he has).


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 9
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 15:15:39 -0500
On Tue, 30 May 2000 13:52:01 -0500 "JKeith Henry"
<neojudas@******************.com> writes:
> From: "Manolis Skoulikas" <great_worm@*****.com>
> Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
<SNIP>
> > One of my players made this baby after some time of trying...
> > Check it out and tell me what you think...
> > (just let me point out the cost of 407100 nuyen and what it can do
> > in
> > comparison)

> I'm not going to do what Alfredo decided to do here, as I think he
> missed
> the points of what makes something what classification....(more
> below)

Feel free to elaborate. :)

<SNIP>
> > Acceleration Increase (Level 6)
> > Handling Improvement (Level 2)
> > Engine Customization (Level 11)
> > Engine Customization: Speed (Level 6)
> > Engine Customization: Acceleration (Level 2)

> Oh, wow ... I am impressed. This does what to the cost. Base x
> (1.25 + (.5
> x 18)), which makes it a [60 (Van-Chassis) + 35 (Van-PP)] x 10.25
> (DP mod).
> I'm just making sure I'm following this here. That's 973.75 now,
> yes??? (I
> keep thinking my math is off).

It is. It's (35 [Van PP]) x (1.25+(.5*10 [customization levels beyond the
first])) = 35 x (1.25+5) = 35 x 6.25 = 218.75

> Just wanting to keep this straight,
> because
> the new value for the template is now (the system doesn't seperate
> the cost
> mods between Power Plant and Chassis after all) ...

Are you saying the shop doesn't calculate the cost correctly? If you mean
that the engine customization modification doesn't specify whether to use
the chassis DP or the engine Dp or both, you're wrong. It does.

<SNIP>
> > Load Increase (Level 100)

> Okay, so it can now carry one more person (this is actually a grip
> on the
> load bearing capacities of engines and chassis in general).

Actually, I think 100 levels = +1,000 kg load.

<SNIP>
> > Amphibious Operation Package (Level 3)
> > Water Speed : 45

> Oh now this has always irked me, just because this is NOT how
> hydrodynamics
> works. BUT, by the rules, yeah, this works.

Could you elaborate here too? Why wouldn't it work? Or do you just mean
that a van won't go 45 meters per turn (54 kph; ~34 mph) using water
jets?

> > Features Concealed Armour (Armour 10)(Concilability 6)
> > Composite Armour (Armour 8)

> Okay, Alfredo ... Doc', pay attention. Right *HERE* is where that
> Military
> Modifier comes into play. Any concealed armor is security or
> better, Armor
> values above "security value" are also military (so that rating 10
> qualifies
> automatically).

Care to find a quote for that? You won't. At least not in the armor
description in R2.

> > Reinforced Body ( 0)

> Uhm, erm... what is this????? We have stuff like this in our games,
> but
> that's only because we adapted ideas from Man & Machine.... I
> haven't
> checked RBB yet, is that where this is from???

Optional set of mods included in The Shop.

<SNIP>
> > Remote Pilot Advanced Programming (Rating 3)
> > Rigger Adaptation ( 0)

> Hmmm ... this is kind of cute from mine own POV, it has a Pilot
> Rating, but
> not an Autonav rating....

So? I haven't checked, but I believe _all_ vehicles have one or the
other, but not both.

> > Drive-by-Wire (Level 3)
> > Structural Agility (Level 3)
> > (+3 to Reaction / +3 to Control pool)

> Yet another reason to get into Security or better.
<SNIP>

I think these should increase the DP multiplier the same way Smart
Materials does. Then again, i don't really like the way that multiplier
is applied ... "These spiffy new materials are going to make my new car
stereo more expensive? Hunh?"

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.


________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 10
From: JKeith Henry neojudas@******************.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 15:16:51 -0500
From: "Alfredo B Alves" <dghost@****.com>


> > Oh, wow ... I am impressed. This does what to the cost. Base x
> > (1.25 + (.5
> > x 18)), which makes it a [60 (Van-Chassis) + 35 (Van-PP)] x 10.25
> > (DP mod).
> > I'm just making sure I'm following this here. That's 973.75 now,
> > yes??? (I
> > keep thinking my math is off).
>
> It is. It's (35 [Van PP]) x (1.25+(.5*10 [customization levels beyond the
> first])) = 35 x (1.25+5) = 35 x 6.25 = 218.75

Ah yes, you're right. I missed that in the first line. Helps me clear my
head and figures both a bit.

> Are you saying the shop doesn't calculate the cost correctly? If you mean
> that the engine customization modification doesn't specify whether to use
> the chassis DP or the engine Dp or both, you're wrong. It does.

What I was saying was that the Shop won't allow for certain modifications to
be applied to certain vehicle/chassis templates. Wanna have some fun, at
least with the version we had, a lot of the aircraft chassis won't combine
with the submarine mod for instance.

> > > Load Increase (Level 100)
> Actually, I think 100 levels = +1,000 kg load.

Ah, misread. Error on my part here.

> > > Amphibious Operation Package (Level 3)
> > > Water Speed : 45
> Could you elaborate here too? Why wouldn't it work? Or do you just mean
> that a van won't go 45 meters per turn (54 kph; ~34 mph) using water
> jets?

I mean that a van underwater won't go 34MPH (give or take) underwater. The
rules are too vanilla in this instance. I've also always tried to figure
out how a diesel engine works underwater (any combustion engine actually)
without some kind of oxygen exchange for combustion. Can anyone clarify
this one for me?

> > > Features Concealed Armour (Armour 10)(Concilability 6)
> > > Composite Armour (Armour 8)
>
> Care to find a quote for that? You won't. At least not in the armor
> description in R2.

You don't have to go that far. Stay in SR3 and remember the concepts of
what rating points determine what in Security/Military values.

> > > Reinforced Body ( 0)
>
> Optional set of mods included in The Shop.

Again, this would explain much.

> <SNIP>
> > > Remote Pilot Advanced Programming (Rating 3)
> > > Rigger Adaptation ( 0)
>
> > Hmmm ... this is kind of cute from mine own POV, it has a Pilot
> > Rating, but
> > not an Autonav rating....
>
> So? I haven't checked, but I believe _all_ vehicles have one or the
> other, but not both.

I understand that, however as the Van is a passenger craft, I fail to see
where the Autonav went in the first place.

> > > Drive-by-Wire (Level 3)
> > > Structural Agility (Level 3)
> > > (+3 to Reaction / +3 to Control pool)
>
> > Yet another reason to get into Security or better.
> <SNIP>
>
> I think these should increase the DP multiplier the same way Smart
> Materials does. Then again, i don't really like the way that multiplier
> is applied ... "These spiffy new materials are going to make my new car
> stereo more expensive? Hunh?"

Smart materials "do", not "does"... come on, if we're going to
nittypicky at
this, at least do it with penache and style. ;-)

Personally, we're still working on some ideas to clarify and/or expand the
Rigger stuff. Tidbits are up on HHH (Electronic Warfare has been rewritten
and we have alternative "Rig Adaptation" stuff as well). Hopefully we can
clean these up more and get them submitted properly as well as the rest of
the stuff that isn't up yet.


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 11
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 16:13:59 -0500
On Tue, 30 May 2000 15:16:51 -0500 "JKeith Henry"
<neojudas@******************.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> I mean that a van underwater won't go 34MPH (give or take)
> underwater. The
> rules are too vanilla in this instance. I've also always tried to
> figure
> out how a diesel engine works underwater (any combustion engine
> actually)
> without some kind of oxygen exchange for combustion. Can anyone
> clarify
> this one for me?

I think the engine is fed oxygen from a resevoir on board (ie, this
particular design's 100 manhours of life support. (How many manhours are
in one enginehour? :)

<SNIP>
> You don't have to go that far. Stay in SR3 and remember the
> concepts of
> what rating points determine what in Security/Military values.

I don't recall that from anywhere and I don't have my SR3 handy for some
reason, could you give a quote and/or page number? (if not, I'll look for
it when I find my SR3)

<SNIP>
> I understand that, however as the Van is a passenger craft, I fail
> to see
> where the Autonav went in the first place.

Why would all passenger vehicles have autonav? My guess is that the
autonav wasn't included because of the penalty it imposes on illegal
maneuvers (ie, combat)

<SNIP>
> > I think these should increase the DP multiplier the same way Smart
> > Materials does. Then again, i don't really like the way that
> > multiplier
> > is applied ... "These spiffy new materials are going to make my
> > new car
> > stereo more expensive? Hunh?"

> Smart materials "do", not "does"... come on, if we're going to
> nittypicky at
> this, at least do it with penache and style. ;-)
<SNIP>

I was thinking "like the Smart Materials modifier does" ... yeah, he'll
buy that ... ;)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 12
From: Hahns Shin Hahns_Shin@*******.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 16:22:51 -0500
Umm, what's the point of having a vehicle if it's not STREET LEGAL? The
specs that you show are way above most military vehicles, let alone security
or street vehicles. If you live in ANY major sprawl and most major cities,
you'll be pulled over by cops in less than a minute ("Can I see your license
and registration for that... vehicle, sir?"). I realize that this is the
creation of a PC (that enigmatic being that seems to filter the gameworld
through his/her own point of view) and no disrespect is intended, but good
God... I hope this vehicle stays underwater for the majority of it's
operation, because if it was above ground, overhead satellites and cam
drones would be marking it for destruction, not to mention everyone on the
street who saw the thing. Since I don't see significant weaponry, destroying
it should not be hard (or as soon as he/she parked it, the local gang would
carjack it for parts).

Your power gamer sounds like the kind that probably wouldn't be
shadowrunning... he'd either be dead a LONG time ago, retired (by fortune or
by bullet), or in slavery to some corp. The point of being a shadowrunner is
that nobody wants you on their payroll, but they want the services you
provide. The moment you become too valuable is the moment when the corps get
their claws around you ("You are going to like it here in Novatech") or the
moment when you are deemed expendable ("He knows too much... terminate
him").
I've played a decker mage before, but he ended up on the path of Burnout. I
can't even imagine playing a rigger-mage (though I've played an NPC as a GM
who was one... he got geeked HARD during that particular run). Sorry... just
my rant on power gamers. I'm sorry you have to deal with one (thank
goodness the guys in my gaming group are roleplayers).

<casting and sustaining Flame Barrier Force 9>
Hahns
Message no. 13
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:44:55 -0700 (PDT)
> > I think it's obscene...
> >
> > But that's just me.
>
> No it isn't :) Who'd want a submersible van anyway?
;)

Yeah - a floating van is more than enough. :)

> > Point three - my lord, what a moron. Why would you
have this horrendous assault vehicle and absolutely no
space to store gear?
>
> No stowage area AND no electronic warfare gear ...
tsk. tsk.

Missed that. You're right, Al - quadruple moron. :)

> <SNIP>
> > Okay, I'd be screaming here. I would roll each and
every test required for the customisation and
RIGOUROUSLY enforce the accumulated stress. This is an
engine customised beyond recognition! This is on a par
with putting a warp drive in a toy truck.
>
> At design time, roll 6 dice vrs a T# of 6. One
success means no stress points.

I would suggest, however, that anything past level 4
or 5 customisation should add +1 to the target number
for each customisation - so at level 11, he's rolling
against a target number of 12 or 13. Like I said, an
engine customised that far is either tech that's so
far ahead of its time it's probably not even
understood completely, so it'd be harder to make it
without screwing it up, or it's tweaked to the point
where it's about to explode. Comes under the "logical"
limits heading. There's no rules AGAINST it, but it
simply defies logic.

> <SNIP>
> > > Features Concealed Armour (Armour
> > > 10)(Concilability 6)
> > > Composite Armour (Armour 8)
>
> > Can you do that? There's no way I'd allow someone
to put both concealed and obvious armour on the same
vehicle.
>
> It's not technically allowed but why not? Someone
examing the vehicle who doesn't make a perception (6)
test sees "only" 8 points of armor ...

I see the reasoning as to what it should DO, Al, but I
don't think it should be possible. The rules are there
for a reason IMO.

> Look again. The 0 means that there is no level
associated. This thing has a body of 5 instead of a
body of 4. He probably shoul've gone with a
medium/heavy transport or APC chassis and no concealed
armor (he lost 20 CF right there!) ...

Oops...vans have body 4, right...as for going with a
transport, I think he wanted a van. I've often spent
the extra money to customise a van up, because its
less conspicuous than an APC or transport chassis.

> <SNIP>
> > I'd rather not. Personally, I wouldn't allow this
without severe modification - or I'd take the first
opportunity I had to blow it up if he'd really pissed
me off. :)
>
> I'd slap a military multiplier on this bugger. The
rules may say that it's a civilian vehicle but common
sense says otherwise.
> D. Ghost

Quite right.

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, armouring the van (or
armouring it past a certain point, or something to do
with armour) makes it a security vehicle - so at the
very least the price should be doubled. IIRC.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 14
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 01:50:42 +0300
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>
> On Tue, 30 May 2000 00:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Rand Ratinac?>
<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
> > > One of my players made this baby after some time of
> > trying... Check it out and tell me what you think...
> > (just let me point out the cost of 407100 nuyen and
> > what it can do in comparison)
>
> > I think it's obscene...
> >
> > But that's just me.
>
> No it isn't :) Who'd want a submersible van anyway? ;)
>

We are playing in the Carribean!

> > > "Wet Death 3-666"
> > >
> > > Handling Speed Accel Body Armour Sig
> > > -1/10 260 14 5 18 8
> <SNIP>
> > > Autonav Pilot Sensor Cargo Load
> > > 0 3 4 1.5 507
>
> > Point three - my lord, what a moron. Why would you
> > have this horrendous assault vehicle and absolutely no
> > space to store gear?
>
> No stowage area AND no electronic warfare gear ... tsk. tsk.
>

So what would you trade for the extra space?
And what electronics would you include in th above price?

> <SNIP>
> > Okay, I'd be screaming here. I would roll each and
> > every test required for the customisation and
> > RIGOUROUSLY enforce the accumulated stress. This is an
> > engine customised beyond recognition! This is on a par
> > with putting a warp drive in a toy truck.
>
> At design time, roll 6 dice vrs a T# of 6. One success means no stress
> points.
>

Yeah but he thinks I am forgetting about the stress of these
customisation when the vehicle goes operational.
Man I am going to have a ball with those stress points!

> <SNIP>
> > > Features Concealed Armour (Armour
> > > 10)(Concilability 6)
> > > Composite Armour (Armour 8)
>
> > Can you do that? There's no way I'd allow someone to
> > put both concealed and obvious armour on the same
> > vehicle.
>
> It's not technically allowed but why not? Someone examing the vehicle who
> doesn't make a perception (6) test sees "only" 8 points of armor ...
>
> > > Reinforced Body ( 0)
>
> > Well, I'm glad that this is 0 at least, considering
> > it's no longer allowable as of Rigger 2.
>
> Look again. The 0 means that there is no level associated. This thing has
> a body of 5 instead of a body of 4. He probably shoul've gone with a
> medium/heavy transport or APC chassis and no concealed armor (he lost 20
> CF right there!) ...
>

Thanks for noticing! I will probably allow that too, though it's good to
know!
The military multiplier is terrible for the price so forget APC, and
transport is way too big and it attracts attention (allthough he will
have to find a VERY good way to hide that composite armour!)

> <SNIP>
> > I'd rather not. Personally, I wouldn't allow this
> > without severe modification - or I'd take the first
> > opportunity I had to blow it up if he'd really pissed
> > me off. :)
>
> I'd slap a military multiplier on this bugger. The rules may say that
> it's a civilian vehicle but common sense says otherwise.
>
Common sense?I'm shocked! How can you bring such a thing in this
conversation?
:)))

honestly, you are right, but as I said I will give some freebies as they
wil be needing all the help they can get VERY soon... :)

the wiz
Message no. 15
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 01:50:51 +0300
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>
> On Tue, 30 May 2000 09:50:10 +0300 Manolis Skoulikas
> <great_worm@*****.com> writes:
> > This is a Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
>
> Btw, saying it's a boat and a sub is redundant ;)
>
> <SNIP>
> > Handling Speed Accel Body Armour Sig
> > -1/10 260 14 5 18 8
> <SNIP>
>
> The Sig is incorrect. It's 2 in general. +2 vrs thermal *when the active
> thermal masking is engaged*. +4 vrs aural (sound) detection. All in all,
> this bugger is still a sitting duck.
>

Radar wise and missile wise, he is!
And the beauty of it is he doesn't know it! :))))

> > Engine Customization (Level 11)
> > Engine Customization: Speed (Level 6)
> > Engine Customization: Acceleration (Level 2)
>
> Where'd the other 3 levels of engine customization go?
>
> > Active Thermal Masking (Level 2)
> > Passive Aural Masking (Level 4)
> <SNIP>
>
> This was not included in R2.
>

It wasn't but I'm allowing it anyway.


> > Reinforced Body ( 0)
> <SNIP>
>
> Nor this.
>
> > Power Amplifiers (Level 10)
> > Sensors (Level 4)
> <SNIP>
>
> No ECM/ECCM?
>

Have you seen the price on these things?
I 'd rather buy some serious stock on Yamatetsu and retire with the
money I'd pay for any ECM worth installing.

> >
> > 1 Remote PopUp Turret (Small)
> > Gunnery Recoil Adjusters 9 for the Small Turret
> <SNIP>
>
> What's mounted in the turret?
>

He's thinking of a an assault cannon.
I'd go for a vanquisher with APDS.

the wiz
Message no. 16
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 01:50:55 +0300
Rand Ratinac wrote:
>
> > One of my players made this baby after some time of
> trying... Check it out and tell me what you think...
> (just let me point out the cost of 407100 nuyen and
> what it can do in comparison)
>
> I think it's obscene...
>
> But that's just me.
>
It's not just you, beleieve me.The rest of my group just stared at him
when he showed the idea to them. Then they cheered. POoor fools!They
know not what's in store for them :)))

> > "Wet Death 3-666"
> >
> > Handling Speed Accel Body Armour Sig
> > -1/10 260 14 5 18 8
>
> Okay, point one. I wouldn't allow the handling to be
> reduced below 0 as a base. I think that's the rule,
> but even if it isn't, I wouldn't allow it.
>

I don't think that's a rule, and since i go for all the modifiers in the
tests, I'd allow it.

> Point two - that signature CAN'T be right - or if it
> is, it can't be the BASE signature. Is that the
> signature with the aural masking in effect?
>
TRhis is the sig for normal perceprion tests with a naked eye (ear).
He thinks it is overall (evil laugh).
He's gonna find out the hard way. (more evil laughs)

> > Autonav Pilot Sensor Cargo Load
> > 0 3 4 1.5 507
>
> Point three - my lord, what a moron. Why would you
> have this horrendous assault vehicle and absolutely no
> space to store gear?
>
They don't need gear.They are killing machines as it is!
Actually they can put cargo holders on externa racks if it would be that
pressing an emergency.

> > Seating 4 Setup/Breakdown 0
> > Entry 2 Landing/Takeoff N
> > Fuel Diesel ( 250 liters )
> > Economy 4 km/liter
> > DP Cost 3666 Cost 407100
> > ¥
> > Template Van ReferenceThe
> > Shop
> > Acceleration Increase (Level 6)
> > Handling Improvement (Level 2)
> > Engine Customization (Level 11)
> > Engine Customization: Speed (Level 6)
> > Engine Customization: Acceleration
> > (Level 2)
>
> Okay, I'd be screaming here. I would roll each and
> every test required for the customisation and
> RIGOUROUSLY enforce the accumulated stress. This is an
> engine customised beyond recognition! This is on a par
> with putting a warp drive in a toy truck.
>

Nope, but it really reminds me of the Mad Max vehicles!

> > Active Thermal Masking (Level 2)
> > Passive Aural Masking (Level 4)
> > Load Increase (Level 100)
> > Increased Cargo Space (CF 10)
>
> *Doc' boggles at the stupidity again*

Don't!Check the load increase! He's used the external racks before! He
learned that from me and my modified "cloud nine"!

>
> > EnviroSeal (engine) ( 0)
> > EnviroSeal (water) ( 0)
> > Life Support Systems (Man-hours 100)
> > Amphibious Operation Package (Level 3)
> > Water Speed : 45
> >
> > Features Concealed Armour (Armour
> > 10)(Concilability 6)
> > Composite Armour (Armour 8)
>
> Can you do that? There's no way I'd allow someone to
> put both concealed and obvious armour on the same
> vehicle.
>
Actually I am going to dissalow that since I can't seem to find
composite armour on Rigger 2.

> > Reinforced Body ( 0)
>
> Well, I'm glad that this is 0 at least, considering
> it's no longer allowable as of Rigger 2.
>
> > Power Amplifiers (Level 10)
> > Sensors (Level 4)
> > Datajack port ( 0)
> > Remote Pilot Advanced Programming
> > (Rating 3)
> > Rigger Adaptation ( 0)
> >
> > Drive-by-Wire (Level 3)
> > Structural Agility (Level 3)
> > (+3 to Reaction / +3 to Control
> pool)
> >
> > 1 Remote PopUp Turret (Small)
> > Gunnery Recoil Adjusters 9 for the Small
> Turret
> > (The turret was a later modificatios so as
> to keep the Mark up modifier low. If they were set in
> the construction they would add the security modifier
> that would double the price. The Recoil Adj was also a
> modification.)
>
> *sigh* Power-gamer all right.
See below!:)

> > Btw the player is a mage that is also a decker that
> is also a rigger (talk about hybrids) and "Yes!He is
> the most obscene power gamer I have ever seen" You
> should see what he's done with the free loa spirits he
> has bound...
> > the wiz
>
> I'd rather not. Personally, I wouldn't allow this
> without severe modification - or I'd take the first
> opportunity I had to blow it up if he'd really pissed
> me off. :)
>
> *Doc' packs the C12 in under Power-Boy's chair good
> and tight...*
>


Not only will I allow it withiut modification...
I will even give them some extra magical protection for it!
Some quickened spirit barriers and stuff!
No!I am not going to blow it first chance I get!


They're gonna need it. They are just getting into an adventure that will
unfold in a major high threat campaign revolving around the four coins
of luck from big D's will, Wuxing, Yamatetsu and most importantly the
Yakouza and Lung the great Dragon. I have rented four yakouza films from
my local video store (the only ones I have not yet seen!) and I catch
myself giggling while watching them! The ideas for suffering are
endless...and they are all going to be implemented! :)))))))) (extremely
evil laugh)

So you see dear Rand, they're gonna need it, and much much more.

the wiz
Message no. 17
From: Iridios iridios@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 07:19:49 -0400
Manolis Skoulikas wrote:

> > >
> > > 1 Remote PopUp Turret (Small)
> > > Gunnery Recoil Adjusters 9 for the Small Turret
> > <SNIP>
> >
> > What's mounted in the turret?
> >
>
> He's thinking of a an assault cannon.
> I'd go for a vanquisher with APDS.

An assault cannon in a *Small* Popup Turret? It cannot possibly fit,
can it?

--
Iridios
--
"The war isn't the war between the blacks and the whites, the
liberals and the conservatives, or the Federation and the
Romulans. It's between the clueful and the clueless." (an
anonymous poster on cypherpunks list)

Visit "The ShadowZone"
http://members.xoom.com/Iridios/ShadowZone

Sig by Kookie Jar 5.97d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
7:16:36 AM/60:03:03 (1) [no thud]
Message no. 18
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:15:19 -0500
On Wed, 31 May 2000 01:50:51 +0300 Manolis Skoulikas
<great_worm@*****.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> Have you seen the price on these things?
> I 'd rather buy some serious stock on Yamatetsu and retire with the
> money I'd pay for any ECM worth installing.

Better to buy ECM once than the whole van twice ...

<SNIP>
> He's thinking of a an assault cannon.
> I'd go for a vanquisher with APDS.

You can't mount either in a small popup turret. Page 135 R2: "Popup
turrets have a weapon value of 1 point lower than standard weapon
values." You can mount a vindicator minigun...

Another I just noticed... You need to but Remote Control Interfaces
before you can buy Remote Pilot Advanced Programming!

Okay, here's my version of the van with a lot of what he wants (but not
all!) plus what I think he needs while trying to stay in the same price
range ...

"Wet Willy 3-666"

Handling Speed Accel Body Armour Sig
1/7 130 9 4 5 5
Autonav Pilot Sensor Cargo Load
0 3 4 10 787
Seating 4b Setup/Breakdown 0
Entry 2 Landing/Takeoff N
Fuel: Electric (1,000 PF) Economy 1 km/PF
DP Cost 4673 Cost 508,600¥ (Reflects post-design mods)
Template: Van Reference: Me :)

Design mods:
Acceleration Increase (+3)
Increased Cargo Space (CF 20)
Improved Economy (+.75)
Increased Fuel Capacity (+800 PF)
Structural Agility (Level 3)
Engine Customization (Level 11)
Engine Customization: Speed (Level 3)
Engine Customization: Acceleration (Level 2)
Engine Customization: Load (Level 6)
Suncell
Datajack Port
Drive-by-Wire (Level 3)
Remote Pilot Advanced Programming (Rating 3)
Rigger Adaptation
Remote Control Interface
Life Support Systems (100 Man-hours)
Roll Bars (Come one! These are FREE!)
ECM/ECCM (Rating 3)
Sensors (Rating 4)
Amphibious Operation Package (Level 3)
Anti Theft system (Rating 6 with Shock option)

Modifications:
Runflat Standard Tires
EnviroSeal (engine)
EnviroSeal (water)
Contingency Maneuver Controls (Level 3)
Concealed Armour (Armour 5; Concealability 8)
1 Remote PopUp Turret (Small)
Gunnery Recoil Adjusters 9 for the Small Turret

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 19
From: Colin Pickup colin@******.demon.co.uk
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:08:41 +0100
In message <393364A2.BA95ADFA@*****.com>, Manolis Skoulikas
<great_worm@*****.com> writes
>This is a Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
>
>One of my players made this baby after some time of trying...
>Check it out and tell me what you think...
>(just let me point out the cost of 407100 nuyen and what it can do in
>comparison)
>
>
> "Wet Death 3-666"
>
>
>Handling Speed Accel Body Armour Sig
> -1/10 260 14 5 18 8

At this point I would have given the sheet back to him and made him
munch it.

Also: Doesn't that mean that it has rating 10 handling when in water?
Add a couple of modifiers to that and he could be finding it very hard
to actually use the water-borne aspects of it. TN 12 is a Hard TN unless
you're rolling 18+ dice.

>Autonav Pilot Sensor Cargo Load
> 0 3 4 1.5 507
>Seating 4 Setup/Breakdown 0
> Entry 2 Landing/Takeoff N
> Fuel Diesel ( 250 liters ) Economy 4 km/liter
>DP Cost 3666 Cost 407100
>Template Van ReferenceThe Shop
>
<Munch>

>Btw the player is a mage that is also a decker that is also a rigger
>(talk about hybrids)
>and "Yes!He is the most obscene power gamer I have ever seen" You should
>see what he's done with the free loa spirits he has bound...
>
BTW: Is he one of those 'my character is so much better than yours', 'I
can do anything better than you' types? Just wondering. (if so I dislike
him already)
--
Colin Pickup, colin@******.demon.co.uk
Message no. 20
From: LDYTinne@***.com LDYTinne@***.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:16:32 EDT
James bond car, need I say more
one of my players built one too

Tinne
Message no. 21
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 01:26:15 +0300
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>
> On Wed, 31 May 2000 01:50:51 +0300 Manolis Skoulikas
> <great_worm@*****.com> writes:
> <SNIP>
> > Have you seen the price on these things?
> > I 'd rather buy some serious stock on Yamatetsu and retire with the
> > money I'd pay for any ECM worth installing.
>
> Better to buy ECM once than the whole van twice ...
>

Most of the times other people use ecm/eccm on you it's in border
crossings and the grade is military!
to have any decent chance against these ratings in a contested roll you
need rating 6.
It doesn't say street index so it would take some serious connections to
get these.
To include rating 4 would take 1M nuyen and 350K nuyen respectively for
ecm/eccm.
That's the van three times over and then some. Even if you did have the
money, it would be an exercise in futility since 4 is no match for a 6+
rating in acontested roll and the military grade missiles would get
pastb your electronic defences. If you did manage to pay for the rating
six stuff, you could have hired a small country to give you perpetual
air support! :)))))
If you see a missile dodge it while chaffing your tail like it's
haloween!

the wiz


> <SNIP>
> > He's thinking of a an assault cannon.
> > I'd go for a vanquisher with APDS.
>
> You can't mount either in a small popup turret. Page 135 R2: "Popup
> turrets have a weapon value of 1 point lower than standard weapon
> values." You can mount a vindicator minigun...
>
> Another I just noticed... You need to but Remote Control Interfaces
> before you can buy Remote Pilot Advanced Programming!
>
> Okay, here's my version of the van with a lot of what he wants (but not
> all!) plus what I think he needs while trying to stay in the same price
> range ...
>
> "Wet Willy 3-666"
>
> Handling Speed Accel Body Armour Sig
> 1/7 130 9 4 5 5
> Autonav Pilot Sensor Cargo Load
> 0 3 4 10 787
> Seating 4b Setup/Breakdown 0
> Entry 2 Landing/Takeoff N
> Fuel: Electric (1,000 PF) Economy 1 km/PF
> DP Cost 4673 Cost 508,600¥ (Reflects post-design mods)
> Template: Van Reference: Me :)
>
> Design mods:
> Acceleration Increase (+3)
> Increased Cargo Space (CF 20)
> Improved Economy (+.75)
> Increased Fuel Capacity (+800 PF)
> Structural Agility (Level 3)
> Engine Customization (Level 11)
> Engine Customization: Speed (Level 3)
> Engine Customization: Acceleration (Level 2)
> Engine Customization: Load (Level 6)
> Suncell
> Datajack Port
> Drive-by-Wire (Level 3)
> Remote Pilot Advanced Programming (Rating 3)
> Rigger Adaptation
> Remote Control Interface
> Life Support Systems (100 Man-hours)
> Roll Bars (Come one! These are FREE!)
> ECM/ECCM (Rating 3)
> Sensors (Rating 4)
> Amphibious Operation Package (Level 3)
> Anti Theft system (Rating 6 with Shock option)
>
> Modifications:
> Runflat Standard Tires
> EnviroSeal (engine)
> EnviroSeal (water)
> Contingency Maneuver Controls (Level 3)
> Concealed Armour (Armour 5; Concealability 8)
> 1 Remote PopUp Turret (Small)
> Gunnery Recoil Adjusters 9 for the Small Turret
>
> --
> D. Ghost
> Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
> - Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
>
> ________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 22
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 01:26:45 +0300
Rand Ratinac wrote:
>
> > > I think it's obscene...
> > >
> > > But that's just me.
> >
> > No it isn't :) Who'd want a submersible van anyway?
> ;)
>
> Yeah - a floating van is more than enough. :)
>
The surveilance under water is more lax and playing in the carribean,
it's a nice way to pass borders more easily.

the wiz
Message no. 23
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:45:50 -0500
On Wed, 31 May 2000 01:50:55 +0300 Manolis Skoulikas
<great_worm@*****.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> TRhis is the sig for normal perceprion tests with a naked eye (ear).
> He thinks it is overall (evil laugh).
> He's gonna find out the hard way. (more evil laughs)

Nope. The base sig/target number is never 8. It's 2 in general. It's 4
vrs thermal (50/50 chance of detection with a perception/sensor of 1!).
Finally, it's 6 vrs audible detection.

<SNIP>
> Actually I am going to dissalow that since I can't seem to find
> composite armour on Rigger 2.
<SNIP>

It's something James Ojaste included in ShadowRN "book" for The Shop. ...
This can't be right! Tell him to ditch the 8 points of concealed armor. I
just played with it and no wonder he used it. 8 points of armor: Cost 0
DP; 0 CF; 0 Load!!! By the way, the handling for the van is NOT -1/10. It
is 2/13 because of the 18 points of armor. (Though without the 8 points
of composite armor, it is 0/11.)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 24
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:27:36 -0500
On Thu, 01 Jun 2000 01:26:15 +0300 Manolis Skoulikas
<great_worm@*****.com> writes:
> Alfredo B Alves wrote:
<SNIP>
> > Better to buy ECM once than the whole van twice ...

> Most of the times other people use ecm/eccm on you it's in border
> crossings and the grade is military!
> to have any decent chance against these ratings in a contested roll
> you
> need rating 6.
<SNIP>
> To include rating 4 would take 1M nuyen and 350K nuyen respectively
> for
> ecm/eccm.
> That's the van three times over and then some. Even if you did have
> the
> money, it would be an exercise in futility since 4 is no match for a
> 6+
> rating in acontested roll and the military grade missiles would get
> pastb your electronic defences.
<SNIP>

A van has a body of 4. I think that means it can contribute 2 points of
flux. If you include a signal amp 10, that can provide 10 points of flux.
An ECM of rating 4 has a flux of 6. That means up to 18 dice for a
jamming attempt! A rating 6 sensor has a flux of 9 that's only 9 dice to
counter it! The target numbers are different, 4 vrs 6, which will make a
big impact on the outcome of the test. However, you shouldn't assume that
it's an ECM 4 is useless. In fact, if you pump all your juice into ECM,
it's not likely that a missile will be able to maintain a lock ...

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 25
From: Grim Shear grim_shear@*******.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:04:09 CDT
"Hahns Shin" <Hahns_Shin@*******.com> said:
>Umm, what's the point of having a vehicle if it's not STREET LEGAL?

><snip>If you live in ANY major sprawl and most major cities, you'll be
>pulled over by cops in less than a minute ("Can I see your license and
>registration for that... vehicle, sir?").

><snip>Since I don't see significant weaponry, destroying it should not be
>hard (or as soon as he/she parked it, the local gang would carjack it for
>parts).


If you have something that isn't street legal, it tends to fight better then
a street legal vehicle.

If you live in most of the sprawls, then you likely won't be driving this
thing around normally. My namesake started with a "Rigger Van" (nothing like
this thing, but...), and he _only_ drove it on runs. He had a nice,
unaugmented Americar for everything else.

I never had a problem with weaponry for the van. My GM let me have a
Vindicator. I paid 8 times its cost... but I had one. I also used it a half
dozen times (but thats all).

Basically, there are somethings that each character type wants. Riggers want
a _really_ nice vehicle. If the player is allowed to design them, they get
kind of obscene rather quickly (try giving a rigger player R2 and say
"Design a the vehicle you would want... Money is not an obstacle" and you'll
see what I mean).

Grim Shear
*drool* "No! Not that stupid thing!"
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Message no. 26
From: JKeith Henry neojudas@******************.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:30:52 -0500
From: "Alfredo B Alves" <dghost@****.com>
Subject: Re: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...


> A van has a body of 4. I think that means it can contribute 2 points of
> flux. If you include a signal amp 10, that can provide 10 points of flux.
> An ECM of rating 4 has a flux of 6. That means up to 18 dice for a
> jamming attempt! A rating 6 sensor has a flux of 9 that's only 9 dice to
> counter it! The target numbers are different, 4 vrs 6, which will make a
> big impact on the outcome of the test. However, you shouldn't assume that
> it's an ECM 4 is useless. In fact, if you pump all your juice into ECM,
> it's not likely that a missile will be able to maintain a lock ...

And hence the reasons that I rewrote that stuff so recently.... gads I
really think I begin to understand why Tzeentch has so much trouble with
"flux" being the number of dice and such that gets rolled.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 27
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:43:12 -0700 (PDT)
> > > I think it's obscene...
> > >
> > > But that's just me.
> >
> > No it isn't :) Who'd want a submersible van
anyway? ;)
>
> We are playing in the Carribean!

Sorry, Wiz - in-joke. :)

> > > Point three - my lord, what a moron. Why would
you have this horrendous assault vehicle and
absolutely no space to store gear?
> >
> > No stowage area AND no electronic warfare gear ...
tsk. tsk.
>
> So what would you trade for the extra space? And
what electronics would you include in th above price?

Nothing - you can increase the CF at design. And as
for electronics...yes, the cost is horrendous, but
your player is a MORON (not TOO much offense intended)
if he isn't taking any ECCM at the very least. Unless
he doesn't mind being spotted (and targeted - one good
AV missile would put this puppy out to pasture) by
anything and everything, of course.

That's all. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 28
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:50:47 -0700 (PDT)
> > > > I think it's obscene...
> > > >
> > > > But that's just me.
> > >
> > > No it isn't :) Who'd want a submersible van
anyway? ;)
> >
> > Yeah - a floating van is more than enough. :)
> >
> The surveilance under water is more lax and playing
in the carribean, it's a nice way to pass borders more
easily.
> the wiz

Point 1 - this is all an in-joke, Wiz. Don't try to
make sense of us. :)

Point 2 - if you want to do that, make them get a real
submarine, then do what I've done to my Cyberpirates
players and stick a vampire on board with them. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 29
From: J. Keith Henry neojudas@******************.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 01:44:35 -0500
From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>
Subject: Re: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...


> > The surveilance under water is more lax and playing
> in the carribean, it's a nice way to pass borders more
> easily.
> > the wiz
>
> Point 1 - this is all an in-joke, Wiz. Don't try to
> make sense of us. :)

Oh yeah, like *THAT* is going to possible.

> Point 2 - if you want to do that, make them get a real
> submarine, then do what I've done to my Cyberpirates
> players and stick a vampire on board with them. :)

OH NASTY!!! Has to rank right up there with the group in my games going to
Mars with a Vampire in theirs (long story, loads of fun ... terrible in-part
jokes).

Point 3: Carefully consider that the amphibious modification to vehicles is
not going to work for deeper water dives of any kind. I think for some
reason the limits on depth are not beyond what ... 30 meters???? Hell,
there are satellites that can see that deep in water....

And although the rules don't say it, you will also want to consider the
draft requirements and flotillation (sp?) of a marine ops vehicle between
Salt and Fresh Water environments.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to some...)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 30
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:59:50 +0300
Colin Pickup wrote:
>
> In message <393364A2.BA95ADFA@*****.com>, Manolis Skoulikas
> <great_worm@*****.com> writes
> >This is a Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
> >
> >One of my players made this baby after some time of trying...
> >Check it out and tell me what you think...
> >(just let me point out the cost of 407100 nuyen and what it can do in
> >comparison)
> >
> >
> > "Wet Death 3-666"
> >
> >
> >Handling Speed Accel Body Armour Sig
> > -1/10 260 14 5 18 8
>
> At this point I would have given the sheet back to him and made him
> munch it.
>

Is THAT where the term "munchkin" derives from? :))))

> Also: Doesn't that mean that it has rating 10 handling when in water?
> Add a couple of modifiers to that and he could be finding it very hard
> to actually use the water-borne aspects of it. TN 12 is a Hard TN unless
> you're rolling 18+ dice.
>

Not if you have VCR 2.

> >Autonav Pilot Sensor Cargo Load
> > 0 3 4 1.5 507
> >Seating 4 Setup/Breakdown 0
> > Entry 2 Landing/Takeoff N
> > Fuel Diesel ( 250 liters ) Economy 4 km/liter
> >DP Cost 3666 Cost 407100
> >Template Van ReferenceThe Shop
> >
> <Munch>

Or THAT? :)

>
> >Btw the player is a mage that is also a decker that is also a rigger
> >(talk about hybrids)
> >and "Yes!He is the most obscene power gamer I have ever seen" You
should
> >see what he's done with the free loa spirits he has bound...
> >
> BTW: Is he one of those 'my character is so much better than yours', 'I
> can do anything better than you' types? Just wondering. (if so I dislike
> him already)
> --

Actually he never tells anybody that. But a couple of times people tried
to pull a fast one on him they ended up as his zombies. :) Well not
actually but they stood confused by his spirits before they even
conyemplated to harm him.

But you can go ahead and hate him all you like. I know everyone else
does. :)
In any case I am forwarding this string to him any day now, so if any
body wants to say something to him, be my guest (litterally!)


If anybody remembers the story with the frozen water and barriers, he's
the one that made me think about it!
You see? anything can be dealt with without any home rules and bullying.
:)

the wiz
Message no. 31
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:31:30 -0500
On Wed, 31 May 2000 20:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Rand
Ratinac?<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> Nothing - you can increase the CF at design. And as
> for electronics...yes, the cost is horrendous, but
> your player is a MORON (not TOO much offense intended)
> if he isn't taking any ECCM at the very least. Unless
> he doesn't mind being spotted (and targeted - one good
> AV missile would put this puppy out to pasture) by
> anything and everything, of course.
>
> That's all. :)

You mean ECM. ECCM helps you see through ECM. My van has ECCM (as opposed
to ECM) just because it's not a combat vehicle ... it'd be doing
surveilance (IMO) more than combat. Also, you're more likely to get a
missile up your tailpipe in the Carribean than Seatle :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 32
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:21:23 -0500
On Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:59:50 +0300 Manolis Skoulikas
<great_worm@*****.com> writes:
> Colin Pickup wrote:
<SNIP>
> > Also: Doesn't that mean that it has rating 10 handling when in
> > water?
<SNIP>

> Not if you have VCR 2.
<SNIP>

That's a base 10 minus 2 for the VCR plus whatever modifiers apply. He's
still not going to be very nimble ...

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 33
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:13:49 -0700 (PDT)
> > Nothing - you can increase the CF at design. And
> as
> > for electronics...yes, the cost is horrendous, but
> > your player is a MORON (not TOO much offense
> intended)
> > if he isn't taking any ECCM at the very least.
> Unless
> > he doesn't mind being spotted (and targeted - one
> good
> > AV missile would put this puppy out to pasture) by
> > anything and everything, of course.
> >
> > That's all. :)
>
> You mean ECM. ECCM helps you see through ECM. My van
> has ECCM (as opposed
> to ECM) just because it's not a combat vehicle ...
> it'd be doing
> surveilance (IMO) more than combat. Also, you're
> more likely to get a
> missile up your tailpipe in the Carribean than
> Seatle :)
> D. Ghost

Uh...I, uh...ahhh...

I mean ECM.

:)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 34
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 00:35:05 +0300
J. Keith Henry wrote:

> OH NASTY!!! Has to rank right up there with the group in my games going to
> Mars with a Vampire in theirs (long story, loads of fun ... terrible in-part
> jokes).
>
Tha reminds me:
I've read a short story with a vampire riding a space ship with
colonists that takes thirteen years to reach its destination.
so he thinks:
"This is paradise: eternal night, loads of helpless food and a colony
for me to rule when I get there..."
Then he sneaks on a victim only to discover that the "victim" is a
vampire TOO.
So they divide the spoils and make a pact.
Then they set out to take the rest of the victims that end up being all
vampires TOO!
And they realise it was a succesful ruse of the mortals to rid the earth
from vampires...
:)
Did your players catch a ride on this shuttle? :)
Now THAT would have been nasty! :)

the wiz
Message no. 35
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 00:35:03 +0300
Rand Ratinac wrote:
>
> > > > > I think it's obscene...
> > > > >
> > > > > But that's just me.
> > > >
> > > > No it isn't :) Who'd want a submersible van
> anyway? ;)
> > >
> > > Yeah - a floating van is more than enough. :)
> > >
> > The surveilance under water is more lax and playing
> in the carribean, it's a nice way to pass borders more
> easily.
> > the wiz
>
> Point 1 - this is all an in-joke, Wiz. Don't try to
> make sense of us. :)
>

Out with it, you mentioned it twice allready, it must be good! :)

> Point 2 - if you want to do that, make them get a real
> submarine, then do what I've done to my Cyberpirates
> players and stick a vampire on board with them. :)
>

Now THIS mail, I am NOT forwarding over to my player
(evil laugh)
I'm thinking of a japanese yak vampire mage with some limited glamour
power...after all gaki (jap namps) ARE spirits...
(extremely evil laugh)

Thanks Rand, nice touch!

btw I expect that I would have to tell on you to save my butt from
serious physical abuse after the players lose that extra essence from
the vamp, so it would be wise to strengthen your antiviral protection
any time now... :)))))))))

the wiz

("It was n't me guys, honestly, I read anout it on the list...No I can't
tell you where...Stop that!Not the spoon!Ok it was DOC!OK? Now turn off
that chainsaw, we might drop it by accid...AAAARGHHH!")
Message no. 36
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 00:35:01 +0300
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>
> On Wed, 31 May 2000 01:50:55 +0300 Manolis Skoulikas
> <great_worm@*****.com> writes:
> <SNIP>
> > TRhis is the sig for normal perceprion tests with a naked eye (ear).
> > He thinks it is overall (evil laugh).
> > He's gonna find out the hard way. (more evil laughs)
>
> Nope. The base sig/target number is never 8. It's 2 in general. It's 4
> vrs thermal (50/50 chance of detection with a perception/sensor of 1!).
> Finally, it's 6 vrs audible detection.
>

Sorry, rigger stuff is not mystrong point! :)
do you have a page for that? cause I thought signature customisation was
overall for non specific (radar, acoustic, thermal) perception checks.


> <SNIP>
> > Actually I am going to dissalow that since I can't seem to find
> > composite armour on Rigger 2.
> <SNIP>
>
> It's something James Ojaste included in ShadowRN "book" for The Shop. ...
> This can't be right! Tell him to ditch the 8 points of concealed armor. I
> just played with it and no wonder he used it. 8 points of armor: Cost 0
> DP; 0 CF; 0 Load!!! By the way, the handling for the van is NOT -1/10. It
> is 2/13 because of the 18 points of armor. (Though without the 8 points
> of composite armor, it is 0/11.)
>
So what gives? Is the shop obsolete or it just allows for extra stuff?

btw thanks for the math, it would have taken me ages to calculate! :)

the wiz
Message no. 37
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 00:34:58 +0300
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>

> A van has a body of 4. I think that means it can contribute 2 points of
> flux. If you include a signal amp 10, that can provide 10 points of flux.
> An ECM of rating 4 has a flux of 6. That means up to 18 dice for a
> jamming attempt! A rating 6 sensor has a flux of 9 that's only 9 dice to
> counter it! The target numbers are different, 4 vrs 6, which will make a
> big impact on the outcome of the test. However, you shouldn't assume that
> it's an ECM 4 is useless. In fact, if you pump all your juice into ECM,
> it's not likely that a missile will be able to maintain a lock ...
>
Nice thinking! I haven't realised that until now!Thanks :)

But couldn't the other vehicle do the same?

In any case, you would get 3 successes an dthe other guy would get 4,5.
Still no go IMO.

Though it is a very nice combo what you suggested!

the wiz
Message no. 38
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:43:43 -0500
On Fri, 02 Jun 2000 00:35:01 +0300 Manolis Skoulikas
<great_worm@*****.com> writes:
> Alfredo B Alves wrote:
<SNIP>
> > Nope. The base sig/target number is never 8. It's 2 in general.
> > It's 4
> > vrs thermal (50/50 chance of detection with a perception/sensor of
> > 1!).
> > Finally, it's 6 vrs audible detection.

> Sorry, rigger stuff is not mystrong point! :)
> do you have a page for that?

Passive Aural Masking: RBB, page 112.
Thermal Baffles: R2, page 130.
Active Thermal Masking: R2, page 130.
Radar Absorbing Materials: R2, page 130.
Signature Improvement (Design Option): R2, page 117.

> cause I thought signature customisation
> was
> overall for non specific (radar, acoustic, thermal) perception
> checks.

*Signature Improvement* applies to all tests. However, your player did
not use Signature Improvement ... (which, IIRC, Jon Szeto said was
supposed to cost 200 DP per level)

<SNIP>
> So what gives? Is the shop obsolete or it just allows for extra
> stuff?

No, just tell your player to design vehicles using only the Rigger2
"book" (and the Quality book if you want; it has the quality factors. I
forgot what the R2Clean book is...)

> btw thanks for the math, it would have taken me ages to calculate!
> :)

No problem :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 39
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 17:00:50 -0500
On Fri, 02 Jun 2000 00:34:58 +0300 Manolis Skoulikas
<great_worm@*****.com> writes:
> Alfredo B Alves wrote:
<SNIP>
> > That means up to 18 dice for a
> > jamming attempt! A rating 6 sensor has a flux of 9 that's only 9 dice
to
> > counter it! The target numbers are different, 4 vrs 6, which will
make a
> > big impact on the outcome of the test. However, you shouldn't
> > assume that
> > it's an ECM 4 is useless. In fact, if you pump all your juice into
> > ECM,
> > it's not likely that a missile will be able to maintain a lock ...

> Nice thinking! I haven't realised that until now!Thanks :)
>
> But couldn't the other vehicle do the same?

Yes, but not an enemy missile :P~

> In any case, you would get 3 successes an dthe other guy would get
> 4,5.
> Still no go IMO.

On average yes, with a top of the line missile. That doesn't mean all
hope is loss ... Missiles don't have karma pool ;) On average with one
reroll, it goes from 3 vrs 4.5 to 5.5 vrs 4.5. :P~

Now, I'd say that the "average" missile will be Int 4 or 5. In which
case, with ECM 4, you're on even ground with the missile.

What you need to to beware of is the guided missile (as opposed to fir
and forget). Those buggers, I believe, use the vehivles sensors instead
of their own ... 18 dice? Ha! APC with milspec gear's probably got 12
dice of sensors, 12 of ECCM to negate your ECM, and 13 dice to divide
between sensors and ECCM. (Maybe 18 Sensor plus 19 ECCM? You might want
to get a head start on kissing your ass goodbye ;) )

However, that's the MILITARY. You shouldn't be facing the military. Most
likely, you'll be facing no worse than top of the line security grade
forces (even if they call themselves a military). I can't think of many
world powers from the Caribbean. ;)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 40
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:25:07 -0500
I said:
> No it isn't :) Who'd want a submersible van anyway? ;)

Doc' said:
> Yeah - a floating van is more than enough. :)

Doc' also said:
> Point 1 - this is all an in-joke, Wiz. Don't try to make sense of us.
:)

On Fri, 02 Jun 2000 00:35:03 +0300 Manolis Skoulikas
<great_worm@*****.com> writes:
> Out with it, you mentioned it twice allready, it must be good! :)

I have a van modified to be submersible. My reason was not to spend
extended periods of time, but rather that there are probably entrances to
the Ork Underground in the Sewer. :]

> Rand Ratinac wrote:
> > Point 2 - if you want to do that, make them get a real
> > submarine, then do what I've done to my Cyberpirates
> > players and stick a vampire on board with them. :)

> Now THIS mail, I am NOT forwarding over to my player
> (evil laugh)
> I'm thinking of a japanese yak vampire mage with some limited
> glamour
> power...after all gaki (jap namps) ARE spirits...
> (extremely evil laugh)
>
> Thanks Rand, nice touch!

Hmm ... According to Oriental Companion (for Rolemaster), Gaki are not
evil nor vampires. They are spirits with unfinished business who possess
targets to in order to do some act to set their souls to rest.

Hmmm...
GAKI:
Powers: Materialization, Possession, Immunity to Normal Weapons (While
possessing a target) based on Force (ie, Force 2 grants 2 points of armor
not 4)

Astral
B Q S C I W E R
F Fx5 F F F F F(A) F
Init: F+20+1d6
Attack: (Strength)M

Materialized
B Q S C I W E R
F+2 Fx3 F+4 F F F FZ F
Init: F+10+1d6
Attack: (Strength)S

Possession
B Q S C I W E R
C+(F/2) (C)x(C+1) C+F F F F FZ *
Init: R+1d6, Astral: F+20+1d6
Attack: (Strength)S

C = Atrribute Rating of the possessed Character
F = Spirit's Force
*Calculate Reaction normally: (Q+I)/2, rounddown.

> btw I expect that I would have to tell on you to save my butt from
> serious physical abuse after the players lose that extra essence
> from
> the vamp, so it would be wise to strengthen your antiviral
> protection
> any time now... :)))))))))

Closet things to vampires I can find are the Yama-Uba (AKA Snow Women)
who basicly enjoy luring unwary travellers to their doom ... then eating
them. :) Then there are the Buso, who just like to eat people. :)
Some other fun oriental critters (This is the *Oriental* Companion so I
don't know what comes from what culture):
Oni: Demons ... Evil Evil Evil :)

Shojo: Demons of the Deep. Nastier than the Oni (They have to be to shirk
the rule of the Dragon King)

Sennin: Goodly mountain spirits who will grant a single wish in return
for bringing their souls to them (one soul per Sennin ;) )... The catch
is that soul resides in a chamber hidden deep within the underworld.

Baku: Dream spirit that devours nightmares.

Hengeyokai: Shapeshifters.

Kappa: Aquatic spirits that will drag victims to a watery death ... then
eat them :)

Ghosts: Boo! Exorcism or rectifying the cause for the ghosts shame are
the only methods to get rid of a (oriental) ghost. Additionally,
disruption on lasts 1 night.

Rokiro-Kubi: Spirits of those killed by hanging who take revenge on the
living.

Tengu: Crow-men pranksters.

Myo-o: Servants of Buddha.

Kami: Greatest of the spirits.

Bosatsu: Followers of Buddhism who have reached Nirvana and wish to help
others reach Nirvana.

Bakemono: Goblins.

Shikome: Bigger Goblins. :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 41
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 02:09:22 +0300
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>
> On Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:59:50 +0300 Manolis Skoulikas
> <great_worm@*****.com> writes:
> > Colin Pickup wrote:
> <SNIP>
> > > Also: Doesn't that mean that it has rating 10 handling when in
> > > water?
> <SNIP>
>
> > Not if you have VCR 2.
> <SNIP>
>
> That's a base 10 minus 2 for the VCR plus whatever modifiers apply. He's
> still not going to be very nimble ...
>
But he could get a TN of 8-10 most of the time so he won't crush!

After all, it's under water, what could go wrong? <innocent look>
<replaced by an equally evil look caused by the sudden influx of
possibilities>

the wiz
Message no. 42
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:33:05 -0700 (PDT)
> > Point 1 - this is all an in-joke, Wiz. Don't try
to make sense of us. :)
>
> Out with it, you mentioned it twice allready, it
must be good! :)

Well...Al's playing a rigger in my game with
amphibious capabilities...

That's all...

See, I told you not to try to make sense of us. :)

> > Point 2 - if you want to do that, make them get a
real submarine, then do what I've done to my
Cyberpirates players and stick a vampire on board with
them. :)
>
> Now THIS mail, I am NOT forwarding over to my player
>
> (evil laugh)
> I'm thinking of a japanese yak vampire mage with
some limited glamour power...after all gaki (jap
namps) ARE spirits... (extremely evil laugh)
>
> Thanks Rand, nice touch!

Quite welcome.

> btw I expect that I would have to tell on you to
save my butt from serious physical abuse after the
players lose that extra essence from the vamp, so it
would be wise to strengthen your antiviral protection
any time now... :)))))))))
> the wiz
> ("It was n't me guys, honestly, I read anout it on
the list...No I can't tell you where...Stop that!Not
the spoon!Ok it was DOC!OK? Now turn off that
chainsaw, we might drop it by accid...AAAARGHHH!")

*lol*

Heh heh heh...don't worry about me. You're in Greece,
I'm in Australia...unless, of course, your players
have relatives over here, in which case I'm going to
have to hire some Sicilians to pay a visit to your
part of the world before you can drop me in it...

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 43
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 19:16:39 -0700 (PDT)
<BigSNIP(TM)>
> Closet things to vampires I can find are the
Yama-Uba (AKA Snow Women) who basicly enjoy luring
unwary travellers to their doom ... then eating them.
:) Then there are the Buso, who just like to eat
people. :)
<Mo'BigSNIP(TM)>
> D. Ghost

What about those Penge-something or other, Al? The
ones who go around as normal people during the day,
then, at night, their heads detach from their bodies
and they fly around chomping on people? I THINK those
are Oriental critters, and, apart from the head
detaching bit, they sound rather vampirish to me.

*Doc' is like that, but his toe detaches and flies
around, shoving itself up people's noses to suffocate them...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 44
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 12:41:48 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Saturday, June 03, 2000 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...


><BigSNIP(TM)>
>> Closet things to vampires I can find are the
>Yama-Uba (AKA Snow Women) who basicly enjoy luring
>unwary travellers to their doom ... then eating them.
>:) Then there are the Buso, who just like to eat
>people. :)
><Mo'BigSNIP(TM)>
>> D. Ghost
>
>What about those Penge-something or other, Al? The
>ones who go around as normal people during the day,
>then, at night, their heads detach from their bodies
>and they fly around chomping on people? I THINK those
>are Oriental critters, and, apart from the head
>detaching bit, they sound rather vampirish to me.
>

I read about them in a book about vampires. One thing is that they drag
their guts behind them. Kiddies are encouraged to put broken glass on their
windowsils so these vampire women (or is there only one?) get their guts cut
up when they try to come in.
Hey, I didn't invent the things, don't balme me.
V:TM had a rather shoddy version of this in their Kindred of the East, but I
think the heads stayed attached to the bodies in that. I could be wrong.

>*Doc' is like that, but his toe detaches and flies
>around, shoving itself up people's noses to suffocate them...*
>

I'll tell Jimeoin on you :?)
Message no. 45
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 19:37:14 -0700 (PDT)
> ><BigSNIP(TM)>
> >> Closet things to vampires I can find are the
Yama-Uba (AKA Snow Women) who basicly enjoy luring
unwary travellers to their doom ... then eating them.
:) Then there are the Buso, who just like to eat
people. :)
> ><Mo'BigSNIP(TM)>
> >> D. Ghost
> >
> >What about those Penge-something or other, Al? The
ones who go around as normal people during the day,
then, at night, their heads detach from their bodies
and they fly around chomping on people? I THINK those
are Oriental critters, and, apart from the head
detaching bit, they sound rather vampirish to me.
>
> I read about them in a book about vampires. One
thing is that they drag their guts behind them.
Kiddies are encouraged to put broken glass on their
windowsils so these vampire women (or is there only
one?) get their guts cut up when they try to come in.
Hey, I didn't invent the things, don't balme me. V:TM
had a rather shoddy version of this in their Kindred
of the East, but I think the heads stayed attached to
the bodies in that. I could be wrong.

Yes, forgot about the guts bit. Tasty. :)

> >*Doc' is like that, but his toe detaches and flies
around, shoving itself up people's noses to suffocate
them...*
>
> I'll tell Jimeoin on you :?)

No, don't do that! He'll sue!

And then Detacable Toe will beat me up!

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 46
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 19:37:20 -0700 (PDT)
> ><BigSNIP(TM)>
> >> Closet things to vampires I can find are the
Yama-Uba (AKA Snow Women) who basicly enjoy luring
unwary travellers to their doom ... then eating them.
:) Then there are the Buso, who just like to eat
people. :)
> ><Mo'BigSNIP(TM)>
> >> D. Ghost
> >
> >What about those Penge-something or other, Al? The
ones who go around as normal people during the day,
then, at night, their heads detach from their bodies
and they fly around chomping on people? I THINK those
are Oriental critters, and, apart from the head
detaching bit, they sound rather vampirish to me.
>
> I read about them in a book about vampires. One
thing is that they drag their guts behind them.
Kiddies are encouraged to put broken glass on their
windowsils so these vampire women (or is there only
one?) get their guts cut up when they try to come in.
Hey, I didn't invent the things, don't balme me. V:TM
had a rather shoddy version of this in their Kindred
of the East, but I think the heads stayed attached to
the bodies in that. I could be wrong.

Yes, forgot about the guts bit. Tasty. :)

> >*Doc' is like that, but his toe detaches and flies
around, shoving itself up people's noses to suffocate
them...*
>
> I'll tell Jimeoin on you :?)

No, don't do that! He'll sue!

And then Detachable Toe will beat me up!

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
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Message no. 47
From: acjpenn@******.com acjpenn@******.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 22:57:09 -0500
*snip snap*

> Some other fun oriental critters (This is the *Oriental* Companion so I
> don't know what comes from what culture):
> Oni: Demons ... Evil Evil Evil :)

Japanese. Nasty, come in several forms, Fish parts are quite common in
some myths.

> Shojo: Demons of the Deep. Nastier than the Oni (They have to be to shirk
> the rule of the Dragon King)

Again, Japanese.

> Sennin: Goodly mountain spirits who will grant a single wish in return
> for bringing their souls to them (one soul per Sennin ;) )... The catch
> is that soul resides in a chamber hidden deep within the underworld.

Hmmm.. not too sure on this one.. sounds Chinese to me.


> Baku: Dream spirit that devours nightmares.

Japanese again. ED has a horror based on these.. a minor one, but still a
horror.

> Hengeyokai: Shapeshifters.

Kinda multi-cultural on this one, though my fav are the were-spiders, the
Kumo.

> Kappa: Aquatic spirits that will drag victims to a watery death ... then
> eat them :)

Japanese again. Kappa look like small men with turtle shells, and a bowl
shaped depression on their heads full of water. If the water drains out,
the kappa can die. They spend most of their time around water because of
that. They're also multi, multi-jointed.

> Ghosts: Boo! Exorcism or rectifying the cause for the ghosts shame are
> the only methods to get rid of a (oriental) ghost. Additionally,
> disruption on lasts 1 night.

Japanese Ghosts (The kind I have most knowledge over) are Buddhist in
origin. Lost souls who have too many fetters to this present world to
re-incarnate. Also, a particularly nosy ancestor could hang around,
unconvinced his/her family has enough brains to take care of themselves.

> Rokiro-Kubi: Spirits of those killed by hanging who take revenge on the
> living.

This sounds to me like another Japanese myth, but I'm not quite sure.
Hanging was not that common a method of execution in the time frames I'm
familar with.. either this is more recent, or maybe a japanized version of
something else.

> Tengu: Crow-men pranksters.

You can tell them by their long noses, ruddy faces, and magical coats. Not
only pranksters, in some legends Tengu were fabulous swordsmen. Adept
avatar/teacher/mcguffin, anyone?

> Myo-o: Servants of Buddha.

Spirits, a form of kami.. see below

> Kami: Greatest of the spirits.

In Shinto, everything has a kami representation. The word means spirit.
Every blade of grass, every tree, every rock. To not respect this fact is
to invite their wrath. Some kami are more important than others, based on
village location, local myths, etc, etc. The great kami have the prefix O-
added, which in older Japanese means Great. In fact, O-Kami, great spirit,
is a term for Wolf.

> Bosatsu: Followers of Buddhism who have reached Nirvana and wish to help
> others reach Nirvana.

Literaly, the Buddahs. There are thousands of them. They've transcended
the world and no longer reincarnate, being something else entirely. When
they intervene, they do so for unknown reasons, with strange purposes that
no one really knows. These beings dwell in "deep time" and see things from
afar off, lifetimes, millinea, or even worlds away.

> Bakemono: Goblins.

Your average Japanese goblin is short, smells like rotten fish, and has a
VERY big head. (Physicaly and Mentaly)

> Shikome: Bigger Goblins. :)
>

I think these are the Ogres in Japanese myth, again not sure.

Thanks to D. Ghost for posting these. Hope this helps anyone looking for a
little spice.

Tig Da Pig
Message no. 48
From: acjpenn@******.com acjpenn@******.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 23:06:08 -0500
> What about those Penge-something or other, Al? The
> ones who go around as normal people during the day,
> then, at night, their heads detach from their bodies
> and they fly around chomping on people? I THINK those
> are Oriental critters, and, apart from the head
> detaching bit, they sound rather vampirish to me.

penagolon. Missed that one. Yep, head and vital organs can leave the
body. ALL the organs.. quite a gross site. AND they can use those organs
like tentacles..
One drawback, though. They have to spend some time each week soaking in
vinegar. (the time varies from myth to myth, some even say some time each
day) That's when you fry the buggers.. grrr..

> *Doc' is like that, but his toe detaches and flies
> around, shoving itself up people's noses to suffocate them...*

That's.. interesting..

Tid Da Pig

Vinegar marinated Penagolon.. yum.. Sweet and Sour!
Message no. 49
From: Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 00:30:16 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
> What about those Penge-something or other, Al? The
> ones who go around as normal people during the day,
> then, at night, their heads detach from their bodies
> and they fly around chomping on people? I THINK those
> are Oriental critters, and, apart from the head
> detaching bit, they sound rather vampirish to me.

Ahhh... the Penanggalan. I remember my first encounter with this beastie.

Old timers may remember it from the old AD&D Fiend Folio. It was one of the
pictures that jumped out at me. I was a young pup in those days. Seeing a
woman's head draggingher guts on the floor, my first reaction was, "Gross!"
followed closely by "Cool!"

The spelling above is according to the Fiend Folio. It may be different in
other sources. I have no idea about the White Wolf version, other than it
exists.

-- Josh
Message no. 50
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 15:12:02 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: acjpenn@******.com <acjpenn@******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Saturday, June 03, 2000 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...


>
>*snip snap*
>> Kappa: Aquatic spirits that will drag victims to a watery death ... then
>> eat them :)
>
>Japanese again. Kappa look like small men with turtle shells, and a bowl
>shaped depression on their heads full of water. If the water drains out,
>the kappa can die. They spend most of their time around water because of
>that. They're also multi, multi-jointed.
>

Sandy from the series Monkey was one of these things, more or less, although
he didn't look like one on the TV show. Any traditional pictures of him will
show him looking a bit like a Ninja Turtle. For all you Americans and
so-forth who have not seen the series (in English voice-overs or the
original Japanese), you are really missing out on a great show. The story of
a Chinese Buddhist boy priest (traditionally played by a girl) who is on a
pilgrimage to India to bring the word of Buddha to China, accompanied by the
Monkey King, a pig spirit, a Kappa and a dragon in the shape of a horse.
Lots of Xena-style fights, bizarrely funny humour and cheesy special
effects, and a hearty dose of spiritualism.
Message no. 51
From: JKeith Henry neojudas@******************.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 00:26:03 -0500
From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>
Subject: Re: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...


> What about those Penge-something or other, Al? The
> ones who go around as normal people during the day,
> then, at night, their heads detach from their bodies
> and they fly around chomping on people? I THINK those
> are Oriental critters, and, apart from the head
> detaching bit, they sound rather vampirish to me.

Penangalaan and I always thought they were turkish or one of the
semidi-mediterranean myths for some reason. Persian???? (trying to recall,
frustration showing).


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 52
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 10:41:59 +0300
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
> But couldn't the other vehicle do the same?
>
> Yes, but not an enemy missile :P~
>

I think the ECCM test is made by the vehicle, not the missile.

> > In any case, you would get 3 successes an dthe other guy would get
> > 4,5.
> > Still no go IMO.
>
> On average yes, with a top of the line missile. That doesn't mean all
> hope is loss ... Missiles don't have karma pool ;) On average with one
> reroll, it goes from 3 vrs 4.5 to 5.5 vrs 4.5. :P~
>

I alwyas give the other guys rerolls equal to their professional rating.
So in a relatively competitive game, you stand tol lose your life or
alot of your day's rerolls! :)
I go for the rerolls all the time.:)

> Now, I'd say that the "average" missile will be Int 4 or 5. In which
> case, with ECM 4, you're on even ground with the missile.
>

To counter 1 or two successes (assuming Sig 4 or 5). Maybe it's not
worth the money.

> What you need to to beware of is the guided missile (as opposed to fir
> and forget). Those buggers, I believe, use the vehivles sensors instead
> of their own ... 18 dice? Ha! APC with milspec gear's probably got 12
> dice of sensors, 12 of ECCM to negate your ECM, and 13 dice to divide
> between sensors and ECCM. (Maybe 18 Sensor plus 19 ECCM? You might want
> to get a head start on kissing your ass goodbye ;) )
>

OK!Opposite to what people around here may think I am not that nasty!
Most of the time.... :)

> However, that's the MILITARY. You shouldn't be facing the military. Most
> likely, you'll be facing no worse than top of the line security grade
> forces (even if they call themselves a military). I can't think of many
> world powers from the Caribbean. ;)
>
Aztlan
Gunderson
Corp sponsored pirates
CAS/Ares covert ops

need I go on? :)

the wiz
Message no. 53
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 10:42:03 +0300
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>
> I have a van modified to be submersible. My reason was not to spend
> extended periods of time, but rather that there are probably entrances to
> the Ork Underground in the Sewer. :]
>

Wow! Now I'm impressed! Really! :)

> > Rand Ratinac wrote:
> > > Point 2 - if you want to do that, make them get a real
> > > submarine, then do what I've done to my Cyberpirates
> > > players and stick a vampire on board with them. :)
>
> > Now THIS mail, I am NOT forwarding over to my player
> > (evil laugh)
> > I'm thinking of a japanese yak vampire mage with some limited
> > glamour
> > power...after all gaki (jap namps) ARE spirits...
> > (extremely evil laugh)
> >
> > Thanks Rand, nice touch!
>
> Hmm ... According to Oriental Companion (for Rolemaster), Gaki are not
> evil nor vampires. They are spirits with unfinished business who possess
> targets to in order to do some act to set their souls to rest.


< SNIP>



> Shikome: Bigger Goblins. :)
>
> --
> D. Ghost
> Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
> - Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
>
Ok Al, I'm giving youre name first if they torture me! :))))
Lord knows I'll be using these great stuff!

the wiz
Message no. 54
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 10:42:07 +0300
Rand Ratinac wrote:
> > btw I expect that I would have to tell on you to
> save my butt from serious physical abuse after the
> players lose that extra essence from the vamp, so it
> would be wise to strengthen your antiviral protection
> any time now... :)))))))))
> > the wiz
> > ("It was n't me guys, honestly, I read anout it on
> the list...No I can't tell you where...Stop that!Not
> the spoon!Ok it was DOC!OK? Now turn off that
> chainsaw, we might drop it by accid...AAAARGHHH!")
>
> *lol*
>
> Heh heh heh...don't worry about me. You're in Greece,
> I'm in Australia...unless, of course, your players
> have relatives over here, in which case I'm going to
> have to hire some Sicilians to pay a visit to your
> part of the world before you can drop me in it...
>
The guy who designed this van is hell of a technocratic biologist with
extended lab experience!
If he can do these things with SR products, I shudder at the thought of
him handling deadly viruses...:)
If by chance you receive a strange package one of these days, DO NOT
OPEN IT! DO NOT SHAKE IT! DO NOT INHALE NEAR IT AND MOST OF ALL DO NOT
RETURN IT TO GREECE!WE ARE ALL IN DANGER! :))))

btw, If you decide to have the mob take a contract on him, I'm pitcing
in! :)))))))

the wiz
Message no. 55
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 15:36:47 -0500
On Sun, 04 Jun 2000 10:41:59 +0300 Manolis Skoulikas
<great_worm@*****.com> writes:
> Alfredo B Alves wrote:
> > But couldn't the other vehicle do the same?

> > Yes, but not an enemy missile :P~

> I think the ECCM test is made by the vehicle, not the missile.

I could be mistaken, but I think intelligent (fire and forget) missiles
just have their Intelligence rating that they use to maintain a lock ...
but that's it.

Hmmm ... see page 101 of Cannon Compaion (under Missile Combat) ... I'm
not sure if what I was saying is correct or not. (it says apply ECM
modifiers if the missile passes through an ECM field, but doesn't say
what those modifiers are :/)

<SNIP>
> I alwyas give the other guys rerolls equal to their professional
> rating.
> So in a relatively competitive game, you stand tol lose your life or
> alot of your day's rerolls! :)
> I go for the rerolls all the time.:)

So you give the NPCs the advantage? The players don't have a number of
rerolls equal to their professional rating ...

> > Now, I'd say that the "average" missile will be Int 4 or 5. In
> > which
> > case, with ECM 4, you're on even ground with the missile.

> To counter 1 or two successes (assuming Sig 4 or 5). Maybe it's not
> worth the money.

Net successes on ECM tests raise the vehicle's sig. It's possible that
you counter all of the missiles sigs with two successes (I think every 2
successes raise the sig by 1). Also, every success you negate is one less
success you need to negate via combat pool ...

<SNIP>
> > However, that's the MILITARY. You shouldn't be facing the
> > military. Most
> > likely, you'll be facing no worse than top of the line security
> > grade
> > forces (even if they call themselves a military). I can't think of
> > many
> > world powers from the Caribbean. ;)

> Aztlan
> Gunderson
> Corp sponsored pirates
> CAS/Ares covert ops
>
> need I go on? :)

I said FROM the Caribbean. Unless your players are stupid and/or
suicidal, they probably won't face worse than security grade opposition;
even from the above.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 56
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: A Van that is also a Boat that is also a Submarine...
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 00:48:16 +0300
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>
> So you give the NPCs the advantage? The players don't have a number of
> rerolls equal to their professional rating ...
>

OH YES THEY DO!
The average karma pool in the team is near 12!
And 8 team karma to boot!

On the contrary, prof rating for karma pool is what I call generosity on
my side! :)

I always try to get them against average opposition but I make up for
the weaker npcs
with tactical situation advantages (ambushes, surpise attacks, bigger
numbers,
ready reinforcements, delayed actions in support etc.)

It always pisses them off that they get their hoops kicked by inferior
guus with little cyber and no quickened spells! And they can't nag about
it either! :)))))))

> Also, every success you negate is one less
> success you need to negate via combat pool ...
>

You definetely got a point there,
but rrunners rarely got the money to install these babies ata a rating
thy would make a diference...

> Aztlan
> > Gunderson
> > Corp sponsored pirates
> > CAS/Ares covert ops
> >
> > need I go on? :)
>
> I said FROM the Caribbean. Unless your players are stupid and/or
> suicidal, they probably won't face worse than security grade opposition;
> even from the above.
>
It is not their choice most of the time! <hehehehe>=evil laugh
:)

and yes, they sometimes act stupid or suicidal!
they can go on for hours for the perfect plan (and usually do pretty
good)
but when they frag up, the drek makes direct contact with the
ventilator....
:)

the wiz

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Thwap!