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From:	Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Greece and Ancient Civilization
Date:	Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:52:35 +0000

Message no. 1 and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 27 Aug 98 at 16:44:
(not necessarily aimed at you, Erik, there's just a nice synopsis in
this mail so I can reply to two topics at once :)

> The two Paolos that either are or used to be here both believed that Italy
> would fracture; I think they both did some stuff on NERPS to this affect.

I hope I support their theory by saying that I agree with that one
and see Italy split up between the North and the South. The reason?
Economics; the richer North doesn't want to be bothered by the poor
South.

> >However, I would argue that depending on the event in neighboring
> >countries, Greece and Italy might be able to hold themselves together.
>
> True enough. I would argue that there would need to be a strong enough
> outside force to keep them unified though; lacking that opposing power,
> they would likely break up into squabbling city states.

The whole concept of city states doesn't really work for Greece.
There aren't enough cities in Greece to support that. I'm also
curious why everyone seems to support the theory that also every
single country is going to fragmentate in a bunch of smaller ones?
Countries are not splitting up for the heck of it, or just because
there's no external force to keep them together. In most cases it is
because the population is not homogenic thanks to them being forced
into one country by either an external force or an internal leader.

That's why Yugoslavia "balkanized", it was a bunch of ethic and
cultural very different people and as soon as the force that kept
them together fell away (read Tito died), they had a natural tendency
to fall apart again. Since the different groups got mixed up, and
really didn't like each other very much it got very messy as a result.

Africa and the Middle East are two other good examples. Most nations
there have been formed by the colonial powers. When they pulled out
they left behind countries that didn't have "natural" borders and
often put tribes in one country with an enemy, or they discovered the
half of their people suddenly lived in another country.

If a country has a strong national pride, a solid economic system,
or homogenic cultural group it is even less likely to break up.
Germany is a good example of the first two (couldn't resist that :),
the Netherlands of the last two (and maybe also the first) and
Ireland has all three (except the north of course).

Greece doesn't have any reason to fragmentate, unless the two
Macedonia's decide to join up in the North, despite the people
identifying themselves by their region. Heck that's the same all
through Europe, and I dare to say the World. Even if it did, with the
current global economic system there's only that much you can split
up before the parts are to weak to exist. City states with less than
a couple of million inhabitants and a solid local economy would die
in a few years. There is a reason why there is a tendency to join
economic co-operative unions in this day (or more than that in case
of the EU). A state splitting up can go from somebody in the
international arena to a bunch of nothings in a flash. No politician
worth his suit would overlook that factor.

> Aside from Turkei (which I agree the Greeks all dislike), what other
> external forces might keep Greece unified? And speaking of Turkei, what
> might that old and proud nation be like itself in 2060? Would it revert to
> the Ottoman Empire, the ancient Hittite Empire, or stay the course as it is
> now? Something different? And *might* the Turks and the Greeks finally
> learn to live with each other?

The ancient Hittite empire??? And that's coming from you, oh Egyptian
Pharaoh basher? :). IIRC, if Turkey keeps a strong government like it
has now it will stay in one piece. If not they are going to face
losses of land in the east to the Kurds and other groups there that
aren't too happy right now. They might even lose Cyprus to the Greeks
(which is one of the main reasons why they still are hostile towards
each other), and that could create a small war in the region.

> Each state did their own treaties, their own laws, their own money and the
> Federation Congress was without much power at all. I could easily see this
> as a model for 2060 Greece. And much like ancient Greece, during times of
> war you'd have most of the Greek city states putting aside their
> differences to repel outside enemies.

That's what I hope the EU will be in 2060... but I'm a hopeless
optimist I guess. Current provincial structures can allow for the
same local independence without the need to chop up the country. Many
countries in Europe already do give more power to provinces, who in
return give more to the local cities. Centralization of power only
works to a certain extend as they are realizing now.

> Who really likes discussing these sorts of things; physics is too hard...
> ;-(

Amen to that, brother Erik :).

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Greece and Ancient Civilization
Date:	Mon, 31 Aug 1998 15:20:03 -0400

Message no. 2 At 08:52 AM 8/30/98 +0000, you wrote:

>> The two Paolos that either are or used to be here both believed that Italy
>> would fracture; I think they both did some stuff on NERPS to this affect.
>
>I hope I support their theory by saying that I agree with that one
>and see Italy split up between the North and the South. The reason?
>Economics; the richer North doesn't want to be bothered by the poor
>South.

I seem to recall that being a part of what they did.

>The whole concept of city states doesn't really work for Greece.
>There aren't enough cities in Greece to support that. I'm also
>curious why everyone seems to support the theory that also every
>single country is going to fragmentate in a bunch of smaller ones?

Not every nation. Some would retain their current boundaries, or something
like them. Others might even expand.

I would maintain that Greece would split, but into a Federation like system
as I mentioned previously. There seems to be enough divisions between
various cities that splitting yet still retaining some sort of Greek
national government (however weak) is very likely.

In many cases, such as you noted with Africa, colonial powers drew
boundaries that too often ignored the existing tribal conflicts. Hence you
eventually get civil wars as the tribes struggle for power or to separate
themselves.

Such is not always the case, but it does happen; look at Africa today and
you've got a low-level war involving much of Western Africa; Congo,
Namibia, Angola, Rwanda, and others.

Sometimes you may get splits based on geography though; same basic people,
same basic culture, you just have one that lives in the mountains, one that
lives on the plains. California is a bit like that; we're all mostly the
same, but there are fairly significant difference between people from San
Francisco and Los Angeles. All speculative talk of splitting the state
centers on North/South or North/Central/South and based around geography
for the most part.

>up before the parts are to weak to exist. City states with less than
>a couple of million inhabitants and a solid local economy would die
>in a few years. There is a reason why there is a tendency to join

If it was truly independent and isolated. I'm not actually advocating
that. More like a Greek Federation of Independent City-States.

>The ancient Hittite empire??? And that's coming from you, oh Egyptian
>Pharaoh basher? :). IIRC, if Turkey keeps a strong government like it

Just tossing out ideas...

>has now it will stay in one piece. If not they are going to face
>losses of land in the east to the Kurds and other groups there that

I'd think it should remain a local player. Though I think it might decide
that instead of trying to be a player in Europe (which it seems to be doing
right now) it may decide to exert it's influence more in the Middle East;
perhaps even expand their territory at the expense of it's neighbors such
as Iraq and the former Soviet states.

>aren't too happy right now. They might even lose Cyprus to the Greeks
>(which is one of the main reasons why they still are hostile towards
>each other), and that could create a small war in the region.

Cyprus is a sticky wicket; could simply go independent.

>> Who really likes discussing these sorts of things; physics is too hard...
>> ;-(
>
>Amen to that, brother Erik :).

Preach on brother Martin!

Erik J.

BTW, your Cyberware article should now be up on my site; got all the
pictures working, checked the links and did a few other things.

http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World

From:	Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Greece and Ancient Civilization
Date:	Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:49:45 +0000

Message no. 3 and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 31 Aug 98 at 15:20:

> In many cases, such as you noted with Africa, colonial powers drew
> boundaries that too often ignored the existing tribal conflicts. Hence you
> eventually get civil wars as the tribes struggle for power or to separate
> themselves.
> Such is not always the case, but it does happen; look at Africa today and
> you've got a low-level war involving much of Western Africa; Congo,
> Namibia, Angola, Rwanda, and others.

Yeah, and most people here think: "Oh, those silly Africans, this
just shows that they can't govern themselves", ignoring the fact that
it was their respective governments that laid the basics for the
conflicts. Divide and Rule, the British motto when dealing with
colonies only made things worse by deliberately setting up ethnic
groups against each other.
The reason why it not always ends up in bloodshed can be multitude:
-The tribes in question simply ignore the borders and travel where
ever they want (I think that's how the Touaregs solved it);
-The tribes are too small to cause much of a fuss, or peaceful in
nature (or simply don't have the resources to start a fight).
-The central government is too strong for them to mess around much,
or there is too much at stake in that border area (oil fields, etc.).
-Life is much better than before, and full stomachs and cars make
them forget in a few generations where they came from, or just takes
away the urge to rejoin.

> Sometimes you may get splits based on geography though; same basic people,
> same basic culture, you just have one that lives in the mountains, one that
> lives on the plains. California is a bit like that; we're all mostly the
> same, but there are fairly significant difference between people from San
> Francisco and Los Angeles. All speculative talk of splitting the state
> centers on North/South or North/Central/South and based around geography
> for the most part.

This is fairly new to me, I can't think of any occurrences, except
the one you mention (and that one is news for me too), where this
actually happened. Maybe inside countries where the division
supported an administrative decentralization, but between
separate countries I can only think of the Gholan heights in Israel,
but that's more for strategic reasons than anything else (although
it's beautiful).

> If it was truly independent and isolated. I'm not actually advocating
> that. More like a Greek Federation of Independent City-States.

That does make more sense, but I still think that it is unlikely to
happen in countries where proportionally most citizens live in a
relatively small area. When you have multiple power centres, yes, but
in Greece I think that around 40% of the people live in or around
Athens.

This Greece discussion did give me another neat idea: Give Rhodos to
the Templars in lease and make it their ancient powerbase again
(together perhaps with Malta).

> >The ancient Hittite empire??? And that's coming from you, oh Egyptian
> >Pharaoh basher? :). IIRC, if Turkey keeps a strong government like it

> Just tossing out ideas...

Sorry if it sounded like I was making fun of you, it just never even
crossed my mind as a possible future for Turkey, and I know of myself
that I have a bias towards ancient empires :). the Hittites didn't
last that long, and died of too early to still have a following, or
even people who remember them. I figure that the Ottoman Empire has
most chance of re-occurance, followed maybe (but far less likely) by
the Kalifate of Bagdad. Due to the current state of the Middle East,
it is however unlikely that one group will recreate the huge empires
that existed a long time ago. A lot of people want to create a great
muslim nation, but everyone has it's own ideas about who will be in
charge.

> I'd think it should remain a local player. Though I think it might decide
> that instead of trying to be a player in Europe (which it seems to be doing
> right now) it may decide to exert it's influence more in the Middle East;
> perhaps even expand their territory at the expense of it's neighbours such
> as Iraq and the former Soviet states.

That's a good idea. A lot of those southern ex-soviet states are
islamic, and might be more open to a moderate Turkey than the other
states in the region. Now that I think of it, Turkey is the only
state in the region, together with Egypt who can probably create
enough push towards a federation of Islamic states in that region.
Something like that could go a long way into re-establishing the
middle east as one of the power centres on earth in 2060, certainly
if you consider that the traditional powers like the US, Europe and
Russia all have far too much problems of their own to do anything
about it (or plainly don't exist in their current form any more).

> Cyprus is a sticky wicket; could simply go independent.

As soon as either the Greeks or Turks show enough signs of weakness,
the other is going to make a move, specially if the "rest of the
world" is too busy to bother.

> Preach on brother Martin!

Rigeous e-mail brother Erik.

> BTW, your Cyberware article should now be up on my site; got all the
> pictures working, checked the links and did a few other things.

I checked it out and my thanks for the compliments (I just hope that
my IQ remains the same if I disagree with you :).
you might want to check it again, BTW, parts of your website don't
browse in Netscape (the main page being the most important one).
And I'm happy to help out with any stuff you need for your Target
Egypt, I just lost the post in which you asked for it.

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Greece and Ancient Civilization
Date:	Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:58:58 -0400

Message no. 4 At 11:49 PM 9/1/98 +0000, you wrote:

>This is fairly new to me, I can't think of any occurrences, except
>the one you mention (and that one is news for me too), where this
>actually happened. Maybe inside countries where the division
>supported an administrative decentralization, but between
>separate countries I can only think of the Gholan heights in Israel,
>but that's more for strategic reasons than anything else (although
>it's beautiful).

Well, think about many of the national borders. The Danube. Offa's Dyke
(Wales; okay, not strict geography, but almost). The Rio Grande. Borders
build around geography. I personally find it likely that if a large nation
is going to fracture, chances are that it'll be based around geography if
the culture is homogeneous enough. Hell, plenty of cultural differences
are created by geography.

>> If it was truly independent and isolated. I'm not actually advocating
>> that. More like a Greek Federation of Independent City-States.
>
>That does make more sense, but I still think that it is unlikely to
>happen in countries where proportionally most citizens live in a
>relatively small area. When you have multiple power centres, yes, but
>in Greece I think that around 40% of the people live in or around
>Athens.

Well, Athens would likely be in the driver's seat then. But apparently
there are some fairly significant rivalries between the cities. Unity may
be a more likely scenario, but I personally believe that a federation of
independent city-states is a close second.

>This Greece discussion did give me another neat idea: Give Rhodos to
>the Templars in lease and make it their ancient powerbase again
>(together perhaps with Malta).

Gotta bring back the Templars then. Who would these twonks be then? A
mercenary group? A rogue wing of the Church? A loyal wing of the Church?
A shadow organization? A cult?

I say all of those things because to different people at different times,
the Templars were any or all of those things.

>That's a good idea. A lot of those southern ex-soviet states are
>islamic, and might be more open to a moderate Turkey than the other

True. Don't the Turks and the Armenians have some major bad blood though?
I seem to recall an incident in the past in which the Turks butchered
thousands of Armenians.

>states in the region. Now that I think of it, Turkey is the only
>state in the region, together with Egypt who can probably create
>enough push towards a federation of Islamic states in that region.

True. Except for the fact that the current military leadership (the real
power in Turkei) is dead set against becoming an Islamic state, they are
very hard core about removing religion from government.

>> Cyprus is a sticky wicket; could simply go independent.
>
>As soon as either the Greeks or Turks show enough signs of weakness,
>the other is going to make a move, specially if the "rest of the
>world" is too busy to bother.

Oh, yeah, well that is far more likely.

>you might want to check it again, BTW, parts of your website don't
>browse in Netscape (the main page being the most important one).

Damn. I thought I had it going right. And I thought I was using generic
code too. Pray tell, privately, what's fragged now?

>And I'm happy to help out with any stuff you need for your Target
>Egypt, I just lost the post in which you asked for it.

Well, Egpytian myth and magic. I think perhaps you may have written much
of that for RN already though, so it'd be a matter of you picking and
choosing exactly what you'd like to be presented. I might accidentally cut
an important god or something.

Erik J.

http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World

From:	Steve Collins <einan@*********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Greece and Ancient Civilization
Date:	Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:36:04 -0400

Message no. 5 >
>>This Greece discussion did give me another neat idea: Give Rhodos to
>>the Templars in lease and make it their ancient powerbase again
>>(together perhaps with Malta).
>
>Gotta bring back the Templars then. Who would these twonks be then? A
>mercenary group? A rogue wing of the Church? A loyal wing of the Church?
>A shadow organization? A cult?
>
>I say all of those things because to different people at different times,
>the Templars were any or all of those things.
>

Definately not Loyal to the Church as they were killed by the church
supposedly for Herasy and Devil Worship (more likely it was so Rome could
get their hands on the Templars money). If you believe the reason why the
Church chose to get rid of them a Cult works well. They were definately
heavily into Ritual Magic and being the Secret group they were rumors
started going around that they had started worshiping a new God called
Baal. Whatever they were they would be one Badass Magical Initiate group
possibly with a liberal dosing of Physads.

Steve

From:	Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Greece and Ancient Civilization
Date:	Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:41:21 +0000

Message no. 6 and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 1 Sep 98 at 19:58:

> Well, think about many of the national borders. The Danube. Offa's Dyke
> (Wales; okay, not strict geography, but almost). The Rio Grande. Borders
> build around geography. I personally find it likely that if a large nation
> is going to fracture, chances are that it'll be based around geography if
> the culture is homogeneous enough. Hell, plenty of cultural differences
> are created by geography.

Arlgh, I can't believe I misread you like this... Of course you're
right. Although geography is less and less important, demographics
rule nowadays.

> Gotta bring back the Templars then. Who would these twonks be then? A
> mercenary group? A rogue wing of the Church? A loyal wing of the Church?
> A shadow organization? A cult?

If my memory doesn't fail me they are back in the folds of the church
and act like the executive arm of the Vatican. Tir na n'Og p.54. The
frigging elves of the Tir fear them, so they must be more than just
kick-ass mages (or tree-hugging-hippie-crap :).

> True. Don't the Turks and the Armenians have some major bad blood though?
> I seem to recall an incident in the past in which the Turks butchered
> thousands of Armenians.

Over a million if you believe the Armenians. Ah well so much for a
federation of muslim states. They are too much at each other's troath
as I feared. Damn, I liked the idea and the rest of the world is a
chaos so there is a power vacuum which could be taken up by the
middle east.

> True. Except for the fact that the current military leadership (the real
> power in Turkei) is dead set against becoming an Islamic state, they are
> very hard core about removing religion from government.

They got my blessing, personaly. But the means don't justify the end
in this case.

> Well, Egpytian myth and magic. I think perhaps you may have written much
> of that for RN already though, so it'd be a matter of you picking and
> choosing exactly what you'd like to be presented. I might accidentally cut
> an important god or something.

They're all important :). You could stick to the parts that actually
have rules in them like the totems and magic posts. That ought to
catch most of it, plus it's not too long.

> http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
> The Reality Check for a Fictional World

It was working fine this morning, so if you didn't change anything,
my browser had a bad day probably.

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

From:	"Dr. Faust" <apocrytha@*********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Greece and Ancient Civilization
Date:	Wed, 2 Sep 1998 05:39:53 -0500

Message no. 7 Steve Collins wrote:

> >
> >>This Greece discussion did give me another neat idea: Give Rhodos to
> >>the Templars in lease and make it their ancient powerbase again
> >>(together perhaps with Malta).
> >
> >Gotta bring back the Templars then. Who would these twonks be then? A
> >mercenary group? A rogue wing of the Church? A loyal wing of the Church?
> >A shadow organization? A cult?
> >
> >I say all of those things because to different people at different times,
> >the Templars were any or all of those things.
> >
>
> Definately not Loyal to the Church as they were killed by the church
> supposedly for Herasy and Devil Worship (more likely it was so Rome could
> get their hands on the Templars money). If you believe the reason why the
> Church chose to get rid of them a Cult works well. They were definately
> heavily into Ritual Magic and being the Secret group they were rumors
> started going around that they had started worshiping a new God called
> Baal. Whatever they were they would be one Badass Magical Initiate group
> possibly with a liberal dosing of Physads.
>
> Steve

Baal? Baal is a old God of about... Everywhere in the Middle-East and all
over North Africa and Southern Spain. It means 'Lord'. Israelites called
Yahweh Ba'yal (Probally mispelling of the Hebrew version). They suppostdly
worshipped Baphomet which came to them from the Crusades from contact with the
local population... Example. 0 and our numbers are Arabic. And the Knights
Templar still does exist as the OTO.

--
"that is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may
die."
-H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu."

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Greece and Ancient Civilization
Date:	Wed, 2 Sep 1998 14:15:05 -0400

Message no. 8 At 09:41 AM 9/2/98 +0000, you wrote:

>Arlgh, I can't believe I misread you like this... Of course you're
>right. Although geography is less and less important, demographics
>rule nowadays.

Well, geographics at one time did define demographics, but with global
communications, that's no longer the case.

>mory doesn't fail me they are back in the folds of the church
>and act like the executive arm of the Vatican. Tir na n'Og p.54. The
>frigging elves of the Tir fear them, so they must be more than just
>kick-ass mages (or tree-hugging-hippie-crap :).

Was that the Templars or the Jesuits? I can remember from Aztlan that the
New Jesuits are some bad-ass magicians and cyber-soldiers; able to quote
chapter and verse and discuss the whole thing AS they are pounding your
body into the next world.

Can't recall the Templars though. Haven't even picked up Tir na n'Og for a
few years let alone read it. I'll have to look at the reference page
though you mention.

>Over a million if you believe the Armenians. Ah well so much for a
>federation of muslim states. They are too much at each other's troath
>as I feared. Damn, I liked the idea and the rest of the world is a
>chaos so there is a power vacuum which could be taken up by the
>middle east.

I think the power vacuum has been taken up by the corporations...

>They're all important :). You could stick to the parts that actually
>have rules in them like the totems and magic posts. That ought to
>catch most of it, plus it's not too long.

Okay, I'll have to check and see what I actually saved. I know I have the
magic part itself, I think I have a god listing too.

>> The Reality Check for a Fictional World
>
>It was working fine this morning, so if you didn't change anything,
>my browser had a bad day probably.

Hadn't changed anything, so maybe the server was funky. I know I removed
the blink tags a long time ago at Wordman's request. I think those were
the only non-browser specific code.

Ah well.

Erik J.

http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Greece and Ancient Civilization
Date:	Wed, 2 Sep 1998 14:16:34 -0400

Message no. 9 At 08:36 PM 9/1/98 -0400, you wrote:

>>I say all of those things because to different people at different times,
>>the Templars were any or all of those things.
>>
>Definately not Loyal to the Church as they were killed by the church
>supposedly for Herasy and Devil Worship (more likely it was so Rome could

Actually, they were given their blessing by the Roman Catholic Church and
did function for quite a while as a military wing of the Church.

Phillip le Bel, King of France (who had been rejected for membership
incidentally) feared/coveted the Templars power and their wealth. He was
the primary player in getting a certain Pope into power (can't recall the
name, sorry), so this Pope was very much beholden to Phillip. When he said
"Jump!" the Pope asked how high while in mid-air. Phillip demanded that
the Pope declare the Templars heretics essentially, which is what happened.

Since Scotland didn't recognize the authority of the Church, the Templars
existed for about a hundred years afterwards, and many Templars in England
melded into society and various others escaped into other orders (Malta or
Tuetonic). Many were imprisoned and/or killed however. And Phillip never
saw a dime of the fabled Templar wealth.

So as I said, it depends heavily on who's looking at the Knights Templar
and during what time frame.

Erik J.

http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World

From:	Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Greece and Ancient Civilization
Date:	Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:00:11 -0400

Message no. 10 Erik J. wrote:
>Hadn't changed anything, so maybe the server was funky. I know I removed
>the blink tags a long time ago at Wordman's request.

<tips hat to Erik J>.

The world thanks you.

Wordman

From:	Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Greece and Ancient Civilization
Date:	Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:55:43 +0000

Message no. 11 and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 2 Sep 98 at 14:15:

> Was that the Templars or the Jesuits? I can remember from Aztlan that the
> New Jesuits are some bad-ass magicians and cyber-soldiers; able to quote
> chapter and verse and discuss the whole thing AS they are pounding your
> body into the next world.

Cute :). The Jesuits also had this thing with educating children.
"Give me a child until his seventh year and I can tell you what man
he will be." That's probably why people who were schooled by them
found it a very memorable occasion...
It was both of them, seems like the pope adapted very quickly to the
new situation. They must have gotten rid of the current people in
power, since they tend to be fairly conservative (to prevent flame
wars euphemistically phrased).

So we have two kick-ass magical and combat orders within the RC
church... I do wonder what the pope's plans for the future are...
*shudder*

> >Over a million if you believe the Armenians. Ah well so much for a
> >federation of muslim states. They are too much at each other's troath
> >as I feared. Damn, I liked the idea and the rest of the world is a
> >chaos so there is a power vacuum which could be taken up by the
> >middle east.
>
> I think the power vacuum has been taken up by the corporations...

One type yes, but they tend to leave the countries alone as long as
it doesn't interfere with business, plus their armies tend to be on
the small side. I meant there is no "new world order" that could
prevent countries like Iraq from taking over Kuwait again (and
whatever they can get their hands on). If they do, and they insist
that they will not interfere with the corporations, I don't think
anyone will give a toss. There's no-one left to control the situation
in the world at a moralistic or UN level. The UCAS is in shambles,
Europe is a mess (like they would do much), Russia is a mess, China
is no more, heck there's no super powers any more. I'll call that a
power vacuum.

I think I'll be building my atomic shelter if I was living in that
time.

[webpages]
> Hadn't changed anything, so maybe the server was funky. I know I removed
> the blink tags a long time ago at Wordman's request. I think those were
> the only non-browser specific code.

Arlgh, the evil "blink" tag. kill, destroy, maim!!!

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

From:	Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Greece and Ancient Civilization
Date:	Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:55:43 +0000

Message no. 12 and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 2 Sep 98 at 14:16:

> Since Scotland didn't recognize the authority of the Church, the Templars
> existed for about a hundred years afterwards, and many Templars in England
> melded into society and various others escaped into other orders (Malta or
> Tuetonic). Many were imprisoned and/or killed however. And Phillip never
> saw a dime of the fabled Templar wealth.

This is of course where someone is going to mention that fabled
prophesy that Jacques de Molay did just before he was burned. I'll
bite, I've got a reputation to maintain anyway :)
He predicted that within the year of his death (1314) the king, the
pope, and the king's chancellor (forgot his name, but he was
responsible for executing the whole plan) would die too. And suprise,
suprise, they all kicked the bucket within the year.

BTW, the french ruler did see some of the templar's possessions, but
was enraged by the apparent poverty of the order. Someone must have
seen this coming and moved the wealth to the equivalent of a Swiss
bank account in the middle ages. And strangely enough the pope
declared that all the possessions of the Templars would go to the
order of st. John, another military crusader order. So poor Phillipe
went through a lot of trouble for nothing. Although one can say that
he got rid of a very large army in his country. At the time of the
trails the Templars in France had an army the size of that of France
itself, and it was better equipped and trained by far ( IIRC
around 3500 man, by current standards pitiful, but large in a feudal
society).

Apart from the places Erik mentioned they also moved into Spain and
Portugal joining, or founding the Rosacrusian order which nowadays is
known (as Faust mentioned) as OTO, or AMORC (or whatever) depending
on the country you live in. And the Maltezer order is a part of the
Order of St. John, or Hospitaller Knights (which is the oldest order
of all, and also had a military wing).

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Greece and Ancient Civilization
Date:	Thu, 3 Sep 1998 13:35:20 -0400

Message no. 13 At 09:55 AM 9/3/98 +0000, you wrote:

>This is of course where someone is going to mention that fabled
>prophesy that Jacques de Molay did just before he was burned. I'll
>bite, I've got a reputation to maintain anyway :)

I was wondering how long it would take...

>He predicted that within the year of his death (1314) the king, the
>pope, and the king's chancellor (forgot his name, but he was
>responsible for executing the whole plan) would die too. And suprise,
>suprise, they all kicked the bucket within the year.

And all from natural causes. Apparently the pope wasn't in very good
health anyway and Philip died of an aneurysm.

>BTW, the french ruler did see some of the templar's possessions, but
>was enraged by the apparent poverty of the order. Someone must have
>seen this coming and moved the wealth to the equivalent of a Swiss
>bank account in the middle ages.

The Templars did have a lot of friends; not enough, but still lots. Plenty
of Templars received advanced warning, enough so that the portable wealth
could be hidden. Some decided to, at least figuratively, fall upon their
sword, other's bailed out, some couldn't believe it.

>And strangely enough the pope
>declared that all the possessions of the Templars would go to the
>order of st. John, another military crusader order. So poor Phillipe
>went through a lot of trouble for nothing. Although one can say that

Which was mostly "huge tracts of land!" which of course meant great wealth
anyways.

>he got rid of a very large army in his country. At the time of the
>trails the Templars in France had an army the size of that of France
>itself, and it was better equipped and trained by far ( IIRC
>around 3500 man, by current standards pitiful, but large in a feudal
>society).

I think it was larger than that, but they did wield tremendous "temporal"
power both politically and militarilly. Almost certainly the best army, in
training and gear, at the hight of their power.

>Apart from the places Erik mentioned they also moved into Spain and
>Portugal joining, or founding the Rosacrusian order which nowadays is
>known (as Faust mentioned) as OTO, or AMORC (or whatever) depending

Um...not necessarily. It's a strong suspicion that the Scottish Templars
helped to found the Freemason. The Rosicrucians seem to have existed in
pure fiction years before any organization of that name really was formed.
At the time of their founding, anyway, it was "cool" to be a member of
these groups and they were springing up everywhere.

And the modern AMORC was founded by a guy in California in the 60s I
believe. It claims lineage to the old Rosicrucians and from there even
back to the Egyptians, but it appears that those claims are nothing but
interesting fiction. Nothing against the members themselves mind you. But
the modern AMORC is a modern creation.

Erik J.

http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World

From:	David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Greece and Ancient Civilization
Date:	Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:28:25 +0000

Message no. 14 > Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 13:35:20 -0400
> From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
> Subject: Re: Awakened Greece and Ancient Civilization

[SNIP]
>
> >he got rid of a very large army in his country. At the time of the
> >trails the Templars in France had an army the size of that of France
> >itself, and it was better equipped and trained by far ( IIRC
> >around 3500 man, by current standards pitiful, but large in a feudal
> >society).
>
> I think it was larger than that, but they did wield tremendous "temporal"
> power both politically and militarilly. Almost certainly the best army, in
> training and gear, at the hight of their power.

English Common Law defined an army, as 40 men or more. Less then 40 it was a
outlaw band and the resposiblity of the sheriff, over 40 it was an army and
the responsiblity of the Crown. 3500 properly equiped and trained men was a
major force durning the period. I belive that William conquored England with
about 8000.

David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org
******************************************************
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little temporary safety deserve niether liberty or
safety.
Ben Franklin

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