Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Trunks Ryuko <trunks@********.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 01:37:49 -0400

Message no. 1 > It would be a good function for those cyber/magic orders to eliminate
> blood mages, dispell powerful spirits, kill insect spirits, etc, etc.

Actually, I play an elven priest/mage who is a New Jesuit who specializes
in those who abuse the gift of Magic. ie: Toxics, blood mages and the
like. =) It is such a neat concept. =) See the Azzie SB for more info on
the New Jesuits.

Actually, another question is if someone could extraploiate(sp?) current
Church practices and see what rules of Priesthood exist in 2060? I am
curious, since I've adapted most of the current oaths of Priesthood, but I
have heard that there are some things which are changing, such as allowing
priests to marry and allowing female priests.

oh, this is all Roman Catholicism, btw. =) I am a very lapsed RC irl,
amongst other things, so any help would be appreciated.

-James
trunks@********.org

From:	John Vots <jvots@**.KO.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 14:54:59 -0400

Message no. 2 >Actually, another question is if someone could extraploiate(sp?) current
>Church practices and see what rules of Priesthood exist in 2060? I am
>curious, since I've adapted most of the current oaths of Priesthood, but I
>have heard that there are some things which are changing, such as allowing
>priests to marry and allowing female priests.

Don't hold your breath on Priests being female or being allowed to marry
anytime soon, the College of Cardinals is very conservative at the
moment. So when old John Paul II kicks the proverbial bucket, the
next Pope will more than likely be very conservative as well. This is
of course unless he's been keeping his agenda very secret for all of
those years, which is unlikely.

There is one exception to the Priests being married part. If a Ordained
Minister from another faith is Married _when_ he converts and then
attends Seminary as a Catholic he can be Ordained a Priest and still
be married, of course he is now stuck with his wife no matter what a
Roman Catholics still do not recognize Divorce (excet by Papal Edict
and then it is technically an annulement). I think sticking with the
current Bans would probably be the correct thing for the future.

Another reason I have for saying this is that with the onset of Magic and
Meta-Humanity too much change went on in general for the Roman
Catholic Church and they will be very resistant to any other changes
unless absolutely necessary and they won't think that women being
Ordained or Priests being allowed to marry is anywhere near necessary
after all of that.

Jester

From:	"Christopher M. Coulter" <kamikaze@*********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 15:26:01 +0000

Message no. 3 > Actually, another question is if someone could extraploiate(sp?) current
> Church practices and see what rules of Priesthood exist in 2060? I am
> curious, since I've adapted most of the current oaths of Priesthood, but I
> have heard that there are some things which are changing, such as allowing
> priests to marry and allowing female priests.
>
With the changes that come about with magic and all that, one of the
things that would need to be done in order for the Church to continue
as a religion would be to allow priests to marry. This would be done
by revoking the oath of celibacy but would add to an enforcement of
the rules about chastity. Although there are probably exceptions
within the Episicopal structure and any intelligence gathering orders
within the Church.
I think that female priests would also be added
in. The reason would be that with magic back in the world, a number
of Catholic Priests would lose there faith and leave the Church.
While this would not be a permanent problem, it would leave the
Religious part of the Roman Church a bit wounded.

kamikaze

From:	John Vots <jvots@**.KO.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 17:18:25 -0400

Message no. 4 >With the changes that come about with magic and all that, one of the
>things that would need to be done in order for the Church to continue
>as a religion would be to allow priests to marry. This would be done
>by revoking the oath of celibacy but would add to an enforcement of
>the rules about chastity. Although there are probably exceptions
>within the Episicopal structure and any intelligence gathering orders
>within the Church.

See, I disagree with you here, one thing the Roman Catholic Church (RCC)
relies on is Tradition, and Tradition has it that Priests are men and the
are married to the Church. As I stated in a previous post; the Church
Hierarchy, while doing the "right" thing on Metas and Magic, would not
under any circumstances change anything they do not have to. Especially
when you consider Magic being back in the world. I figure that while
attendance may be down, the overall faith of the parish is very high. When
disasters strike or major changes come about the population tends to become
more Religious and more fervent in their Religion.

On Marrying, Priests are by RCC definition married to the Church and hence
cannot be married to anyone else. IIRC Marriage is defined by the RCC as a
Joining of the lives of One Man and One Woman and making them One.

>The reason would be that with magic back in the world, a number
>of Catholic Priests would lose there faith and leave the Church.
>While this would not be a permanent problem, it would leave the
>Religious part of the Roman Church a bit wounded.

The RCC, while disheartened at the loss of these priests, still IMO would
not allow women into the Priesthood. First by the time a College of
Cardinals could be convened to debate the matter and a consensus could be
reached the crisis would be past. In addition I have a gut feeling that
Priests marrying and women in the Priesthood were sacrificed by the liberal
Cardinals to bring about the "In Imago Dei" Papal Bull. The Vatican,
moreso than any other place in the world plays give a little take a little.
I think that Female Priests and Marrying Priests were sacrificed to get
Meta-Humans recognized as Human and Magic as a tool of it's user as opposed
to inherently Evil.

That and Priests leave the Priesthood all of the time, maybe not like in
this situation, but they do leave. The no longer feel the Calling or are
unhappy or God has some other plan for their lives. On occasion they could
loose their Faith. I agree that it would wound the Church deeply if it all
happened at once, but it is unlikely that a large proportion of the Priests
would have such a Crisis of Faith at the same time.

Jester

From:	"Christopher M. Coulter" <kamikaze@*********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 16:51:37 +0000

Message no. 5 > See, I disagree with you here, one thing the Roman Catholic Church (RCC)
> relies on is Tradition, and Tradition has it that Priests are men and the
> are married to the Church. As I stated in a previous post; the Church
> Hierarchy, while doing the "right" thing on Metas and Magic, would not
> under any circumstances change anything they do not have to. Especially
> when you consider Magic being back in the world. I figure that while
> attendance may be down, the overall faith of the parish is very high. When
> disasters strike or major changes come about the population tends to become
> more Religious and more fervent in their Religion.

I do have to disagree with you here, with magic and metahumanity in
the world there would be a formation of many new religions which
would be more in sinc with the world situation. Remember, most
Christian religions find anything such as ghosts, magic and dragons
to be demonic and therefore very, very bad. Since that is the modern
case, logic (IMHO) would lead that many people would doubt their
faith. None more so than those who served strongly in the high
positions of religious institutions. Which is why the first Pope of
the awakened era condemned metahumans and magic. He followed the
dogma of the RC and tried to keep the Church clergy together. How
many people out there would continue to follow there religions when
their brother/sister suddenly develops into an ork or elf? Would
they follow the rules of their religious leaders and ostracize their
family members? I wouldn't, and I am sure many out there wouldn't
either. The many out there would definitely include a large number of
the clergy who are supposed to be stronger in their beliefs. So many
of them lef to find their faith or what not. And when the Pope
died, the COC (College of Cardinals) were stuck holding the bag with
a huge hole in it.

> On Marrying, Priests are by RCC definition married to the Church and hence
> cannot be married to anyone else. IIRC Marriage is defined by the RCC as a
> Joining of the lives of One Man and One Woman and making them One.

Again I stand firmly behing the fact that much of the lower clergy
would leave. Currently there are not as many men entering the
priesthood as there once were eleven years ago. This is fact.
Already, I'm almost positive, the higher part of the clergy is
discussing how to handle this situation. One of which is whether to
let women become priests. Currently most of the discussions in this
arena are theological rather than traditional. Evidence of women
being more accepted in the RC's clergy is the allowance of girls to
serve as altar servers. While apparently a minor change in this
century, that had been unheard of for over a thousand years! That is
a big change and could only continue further into the next century.

> The RCC, while disheartened at the loss of these priests, still IMO would
> not allow women into the Priesthood. First by the time a College of
> Cardinals could be convened to debate the matter and a consensus could be
> reached the crisis would be past. In addition I have a gut feeling that
> Priests marrying and women in the Priesthood were sacrificed by the liberal
> Cardinals to bring about the "In Imago Dei" Papal Bull. The Vatican,
> moreso than any other place in the world plays give a little take a little.
> I think that Female Priests and Marrying Priests were sacrificed to get
> Meta-Humans recognized as Human and Magic as a tool of it's user as opposed
> to inherently Evil.

Actually the cardinals have no say in what policies get passed and
what don't. The pope has final say. They don't operate with checks
and balances like the United States does. Once you become Pope, you
have the job for life. The cardinals are only advisors. If they say
something the Pope doesn't like, I am sure that the Pope would "veto"
that policy. Therefore the COC probably only handle the minor
policies that affect specific orders and the managing of the Church's
administrative activities as well as the election of the pope.
Although the idea you mentioned is interesting, it may not be that
the progressive faction of Cardinals sacrificed their policy votes
for the Imago Dei policy but traded their papal votes for it instead.
But the need to be addressed is still the turmoil that erupted with
goblinization. That in itself would lead for the creation of the
Imago Dei bull. Common sense would have it that some of those who
turned into trolls and dwarves were at one time very good Catholics.
And let's not forget a number of COC may have also undergone the
Change.

> That and Priests leave the Priesthood all of the time, maybe not like in
> this situation, but they do leave. The no longer feel the Calling or are
> unhappy or God has some other plan for their lives. On occasion they could
> loose their Faith. I agree that it would wound the Church deeply if it all
> happened at once, but it is unlikely that a large proportion of the Priests
> would have such a Crisis of Faith at the same time.

While the above may be true, there is still the need to add new blood
to the ranks. With no new priests, the RC religion would just die
out. Hence all the changes in policy.

kamikaze

From:	Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:22:36 -0400

Message no. 6 Kamikaze--

>I think that female priests would also be added
>in. The reason would be that with magic back in the world, a number
>of Catholic Priests would lose there faith and leave the Church.
>While this would not be a permanent problem, it would leave the
>Religious part of the Roman Church a bit wounded.

On the contrary, many people would join the Church, as their
ability to do miracles would only increase their faith in God. The Cathol=
ic
Church, as conservative as it is, is not a reactionary organization,
unlike, say, the Southern Baptists Convention.

Shadowmage

From:	John Vots <jvots@**.KO.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:38:44 -0400

Message no. 7 >> I figure that while
>> attendance may be down, the overall faith of the parish is very high.
When
>> disasters strike or major changes come about the population tends to
become
>> more Religious and more fervent in their Religion.

>How many people out there would continue to follow there religions when
>their brother/sister suddenly develops into an ork or elf? Would
>they follow the rules of their religious leaders and ostracize their
>family members? I wouldn't, and I am sure many out there wouldn't
>either. The many out there would definitely include a large number of
>the clergy who are supposed to be stronger in their beliefs. So many
>of them lef to find their faith or what not. And when the Pope
>died, the COC (College of Cardinals) were stuck holding the bag with
>a huge hole in it.

Oh, I don't disagree that the onset of Metas and Magic and the stand of the
Pope would cause a crisis for many people. However, it also could be
dismissed just ass the Ban on Contraceptives is in the U.S. Just because
the Pope says it is Canon does not mean it will be followed as such. In
general the people know what is right and wrong in such issues.

>> On Marrying, Priests are by RCC definition married to the Church and
hence
>> cannot be married to anyone else. IIRC Marriage is defined by the RCC as
a
>> Joining of the lives of One Man and One Woman and making them One.

>Again I stand firmly behing the fact that much of the lower clergy
>would leave. Currently there are not as many men entering the
>priesthood as there once were eleven years ago. This is fact.
>Already, I'm almost positive, the higher part of the clergy is
>discussing how to handle this situation. One of which is whether to
>let women become priests. Currently most of the discussions in this
>arena are theological rather than traditional. Evidence of women
>being more accepted in the RC's clergy is the allowance of girls to
>serve as altar servers. While apparently a minor change in this
>century, that had been unheard of for over a thousand years! That is
>a big change and could only continue further into the next century.

Are you accounting for the general loss of Catholic population? Most of the
areas hit worst by Vitas and other disease will be Catholic and Islamic.
Having Girls as Alter(boys) Servers is IIRC not Mandatory, it is up to the
individual Dioceses to decide whether or not to allow it. Not surprisingly
in (most of?) the U.S. it is allowed.

>Actually the cardinals have no say in what policies get passed and
>what don't. The pope has final say. They don't operate with checks
>and balances like the United States does.

I realize that, but to think the CoC has no say in policy is absurd. The
College of Cardinals is one of the most political organizations in the
world and any Pope will listen to what they have to say. Which is probably
why Metas and magic were condemned to begin with.

>Once you become Pope, you have the job for life. The cardinals are only
>advisors. If they say something the Pope doesn't like, I am sure that the
>Pope would "veto" that policy.

Yep, for life. Would you care to guess what the life expectancy is of a
Pope who denounces and runs rough shod over the CoC is? Not very long and
it would not be the first time a Pope was killed for political ends. Life
in 20xx is very Machiavellian. The COC may not have actual Legislative
Powers but it does control a good many of the Popes actions, including what
Information he has access to. The responses of a Pope can be scripted just
by what access he is given, it would take a very strong Pope to control the
entire CoC. No to mention that the COC elects the Pope they put who they
can agree on that Throne, not necessarily the best man for the Job. Fex. JP
II, was obscure and extremely Conservative and not well know of outside of
Poland when he was chosen. Which made him seem very influencable to the CoC
at a time when the Cardinals wanted control, but he surprised them. Like
someone said earlier it is coming time for the Pope to die and that will
bring about a new election, it would be interesting to see what the
different factions of the Church want in a new Pope, I'll be willing to bet
Piety is not high on the private qualities list.

Also, when Metas and Magic first reappeared I feel that there would be a
Major reaction inside the Church. I can see a conservative priest saying
something like this "See what all of these "advances" have done, it has
brought Satan among us and will be the end of the world!" and there will be
people who agree with him, and those that complain loudest are heard. This
kind if reactionary movement could well set the Church back into a pre-
Vatican II state of being. Having to make up all of that ground in addition
to the new events would be staggering. I still am of the opinion that Women
and Marriage would be sacrificed politically to get Magic and Metas
accepted.

> Therefore the COC probably only handle the minor
>policies that affect specific orders and the managing of the Church's
>administrative activities as well as the election of the pope.
>Although the idea you mentioned is interesting, it may not be that
>the progressive faction of Cardinals sacrificed their policy votes
>for the Imago Dei policy but traded their papal votes for it instead.
>But the need to be addressed is still the turmoil that erupted with
>goblinization. That in itself would lead for the creation of the
>Imago Dei bull.

That is just how I see the CoC working. They are the single most powerful
"oligarchy" in the world. They do rule the RCC, just not in name. BTW, I
also think that originally the Pope was intended to be a figurehead and a
focus for the People of the Church, not the actual leader itself. I think
(though it is unprovable) that the CoC was intended to rule the church in
the name of the Pope and a series of strong Papacies wrested that power way
from the CoC.

>Common sense would have it that some of those who
>turned into trolls and dwarves were at one time very good Catholics.
>And let's not forget a number of COC may have also undergone the
>Change.

I agree with you, unfortunately the RCC is not real high on Common Sense. I
think the last real burst they had was Vatican II, so that everyone could
actually understand the Mass, but nothing recently that I can think of. I
think it would take more than a few of the COC and Bishops and Arch-Bishops
changing to affect a change, but it would certainly be a contributing
factor in "In Imago Dei"

>but it is unlikely that a large proportion of the Priests would have such
a >Crisis of Faith at the same time.

>While the above may be true, there is still the need to add new blood
>to the ranks. With no new priests, the RC religion would just die
>out. Hence all the changes in policy.

I would find it hard to believe that the RCC would die out, there seems to
be a resurgence in fact in some parts of 20xx, with the New Jesuits
and such. I think part of the problem with the Church today is the
lack of a real opposition on which to focus. With TnN and Atzlan
kicking them out of Traditional RCC strongholds they have something
to grab hold to and focus on. The Eastern Bloc really did not have
that sort of attention grabbing hold for the RCC because most of it's
area were either Eastern Orthodox or Protestant areas of Europe
(Hmmm, that's interesting and I'll have to look more into that). The
Church just went on to long without an Antagonist to force it into
action and we know what complacency breeds.

All of this would make for some very good Shadowrunning, and might
actuallly make a difference in the world.

Jester

From:	Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 09:37:23 +0000

Message no. 8 and thus did Trunks Ryuko speak on 6 Sep 98 at 1:37:

> Actually, another question is if someone could extraploiate(sp?) current
> Church practices and see what rules of Priesthood exist in 2060? I am
> curious, since I've adapted most of the current oaths of Priesthood, but I
> have heard that there are some things which are changing, such as allowing
> priests to marry and allowing female priests.

The last two things are a big no-no in RC-church today, we currently
have a bit of a conservative pope in charge. But since the pope in
2025 ignored the scripture which says "thou shall not bear a witch to
live" and accepted meta-humanity, I figure there are some more
changes. Contraception is probably allowed. Priesthood marriages
are very likely as are female priests (in the lower sections only I
guess). There is a shortage of priests nowadays, and if the 2025 pope
is practical enough to realize the need for changes, he probably
changed that too.
Magic is allowed, but only with the church's consent, or by the
church, so who knows they use a fair amount to impress the
congregation. It might even be that magical active priests will be
able to gain a huge popularity amongst the crowds.

> oh, this is all Roman Catholicism, btw. =) I am a very lapsed RC irl,
> amongst other things, so any help would be appreciated.

Join the club :). Living in Ireland does keep you in touch with the
RC's a bit more though :)

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:17:18 -0500

Message no. 9 ----------
> From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
>
> and thus did Trunks Ryuko speak on 6 Sep 98 at 1:37:
>
> > Actually, another question is if someone could extraploiate(sp?)
current
> > Church practices and see what rules of Priesthood exist in 2060? I am
> > curious, since I've adapted most of the current oaths of Priesthood,
but I
> > have heard that there are some things which are changing, such as
allowing
> > priests to marry and allowing female priests.
>
> The last two things are a big no-no in RC-church today, we currently
> have a bit of a conservative pope in charge.

Funny, I've got a couple Catholic friends who think he's amazingly liberal
(and a couple more who think he's too conservative).

> But since the pope in
> 2025 ignored the scripture which says "thou shall not bear a witch to
> live" and accepted meta-humanity, I figure there are some more
> changes.

IIRC (please note, I am not Catholic, I'm basing this off conversations
and some info from courses), the modern Catholic church does not (and,
IIRC, has not since the Council of Nicea), considered the entire Old
Testament to be completely and literally true. Likely, a papal bull could
redefine witch as "those who consort with the powers of darkness"
(Horrors, Bugs, likely the idols of Nature Priests), rather than those who
practice magic within the auspices of the church.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
The place to improve the world is in one's own heart and head and hands,
and then work outward from there. Other people talk about how to expand
the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a
motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value.
-Robert Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

From:	Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:31:36 +0000

Message no. 10 and thus did Nexx speak on 7 Sep 98 at 10:17:

> > The last two things are a big no-no in RC-church today, we currently
> > have a bit of a conservative pope in charge.
>
> Funny, I've got a couple Catholic friends who think he's amazingly liberal
> (and a couple more who think he's too conservative).

I shouldn't have brought this up, but I needed it for the rest of the
story. We better drop this part.

> IIRC (please note, I am not Catholic, I'm basing this off conversations
> and some info from courses), the modern Catholic church does not (and,
> IIRC, has not since the Council of Nicea), considered the entire Old
> Testament to be completely and literally true. Likely, a papal bull could
> redefine witch as "those who consort with the powers of darkness"
> (Horrors, Bugs, likely the idols of Nature Priests), rather than those who
> practice magic within the auspices of the church.

You're right, there are whole parts that aren't even printed in a
christian version. But IIRC the witch part still stands (no gestures
of reconciliation towards those wiccans burned I guess). And if he
likes the pope can redefine basically anything in both testaments, if
he gets enough support that is of course.

Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

From:	David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:36:31 -0400

Message no. 11 I've been trying to stay out of the religion debate, but:

On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, Martin Steffens wrote:

->The last two things are a big no-no in RC-church today, we currently
->have a bit of a conservative pope in charge. But since the pope in
->2025 ignored the scripture which says "thou shall not bear a witch to
->live" and accepted meta-humanity, I figure there are some more
->changes.

When several members of the clergy become
elves/orks/dwarves/trolls/even worse, it's kind of hard to say
"metahumanity is evil and must be destroyed", especially if your favorite
altar-boy goblinized as well....

->Contraception is probably allowed.

I'm about as Catholic as a loaf of rye bread but I'll disagree
with you here. Contraception is, and probably always will be, a political
good thing, but a religious bad thing. 'To decide who shall live and who
shall not live is the decision of God' or somesuch (I don't know the
quote). Contraception is deciding which children shall be conceived and
which shall not. I doubt religion will ever non-sanction contraceptives.

->Priesthood marriages are very likely as are female priests (in the lower
->sections only I guess).

I don't recall there being any drastic rise of feminism in the
Shadowrun Timeline, so I doubt females will be added any more than the
chimpanzees. Bear in mind, in religious circles, it's women's fault we're
in this mess ("Here Adam, try this apple..."). It was Eve who brought Sin
into the garden, I doubt the religious leaders would give them the same
opportunity for the church.

->There is a shortage of priests nowadays, and if the 2025 pope is
->practical enough to realize the need for changes, he probably changed
->that too.

Show me a bunch of practical cardinals and I'll be inclined to
agree with you. Until then, I'll have to disagree. In history, people
have flocked to he churches in times of trouble. I'd say the Sixth world
is as troubled as you're likely to find, so church membership probably
rose BIG time in 2012 (the Awakening), 2017 (When all the volcanoes
exploded), 2021 (Goblinization), 2029 (The Crash), 2033 (the Eurowars),
2056 (when Chicago's situation became public) are just examples of things
that would drive people to the church. As well as their "openness" to
metahumanity, a rarity in the Sixth World.

->Magic is allowed, but only with the church's consent, or by the
->church, so who knows they use a fair amount to impress the
->congregation. It might even be that magical active priests will be
->able to gain a huge popularity amongst the crowds.

I knew we'd agree eventually. Probably another reason for
increased membership in the churches would be the dispensing of healing
'gifts from God' from the priests (who'd ask merely for donations, of
course).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	The Great Cornholio <ChemPhD2Be@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:23:35 EDT

Message no. 12 In a message dated 98-09-07 04:38:04 EDT, you write:

<< and thus did Trunks Ryuko speak on 6 Sep 98 at 1:37:

> Actually, another question is if someone could extraploiate(sp?) current
> Church practices and see what rules of Priesthood exist in 2060? I am
> curious, since I've adapted most of the current oaths of Priesthood, but I
> have heard that there are some things which are changing, such as allowing
> priests to marry and allowing female priests.

The last two things are a big no-no in RC-church today, we currently
have a bit of a conservative pope in charge. But since the pope in
2025 ignored the scripture which says "thou shall not bear a witch to
live" and accepted meta-humanity, I figure there are some more
changes. Contraception is probably allowed. Priesthood marriages
are very likely as are female priests (in the lower sections only I
guess). There is a shortage of priests nowadays, and if the 2025 pope
is practical enough to realize the need for changes, he probably
changed that too.
Magic is allowed, but only with the church's consent, or by the
church, so who knows they use a fair amount to impress the
congregation. It might even be that magical active priests will be
able to gain a huge popularity amongst the crowds.

> oh, this is all Roman Catholicism, btw. =) I am a very lapsed RC irl,
> amongst other things, so any help would be appreciated.

Join the club :). Living in Ireland does keep you in touch with the
RC's a bit more though :) >>

(sorry for the long ass cut & paste, but being as I was studying to be a
priest for a bit, I'd like to extrapolate on the subject)

OK. As of today, with Pope John Paul, he said in a letter a little while ago
that only men shall be priests and marriage is right out. If there is ANY
leeway, it would be in allowing female priests, as a priest is, in essence,
"married" to the Church. Plus, allowing female preists would pretty much
outdate the orders of sisters around the world. Why be a nun when you can be
a priest?

A good source on current (2056) Church policy is Aztlan. There is a large
discussion of the Church & policies and the New Society of Jesus (Jesuits).
According to the chat in the book, the New Jesuits are "drek-hot deckers",
"chromed to the teeth", "shock troops [of the Vatican]", and
"good theoretical
magicians, but none are mages."

Remember one thing... few things move slower at changing policy than the
Church. It took them 300 years to acknowledge a heliocentric solar system.
Contraceptive will probably still be taboo, even though it may be allowed to
married couples. As long as all the Popes come from Europe, it's going to be
a Conservative Papacy.

TGC

From:	Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East
Date:	Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:26:21 +0000

Message no. 13 and thus did David Foster speak on 8 Sep 98 at 9:36:

> When several members of the clergy become
> elves/orks/dwarves/trolls/even worse, it's kind of hard to say
> "metahumanity is evil and must be destroyed", especially if your favorite
> altar-boy goblinized as well....

Oooh, nasty :).
But that didn't stop the German state of Westphalen to get rid of
most of it's meta-humans, and they're ultra-religious.

> I'm about as Catholic as a loaf of rye bread but I'll disagree
> with you here. Contraception is, and probably always will be, a political
> good thing, but a religious bad thing. 'To decide who shall live and who
> shall not live is the decision of God' or somesuch (I don't know the
> quote). Contraception is deciding which children shall be conceived and
> which shall not. I doubt religion will ever non-sanction contraceptives.

Well it is all a matter of perception, whether popes in the future
will continue to stick to their usual lines based on a word-by-word
interpretation of the bible, or if the more moderate and
practical clergy manages to move up in the hierarchy. There are
already lots of lower clergy who do not agree and some of them get
into a lot of trouble thanks to it. Now if I had said abortion, then
you would be right, but there is a changing view on contraception,
just not in the conservative top layers.

> I don't recall there being any drastic rise of feminism in the
> Shadowrun Timeline, so I doubt females will be added any more than the
> chimpanzees. Bear in mind, in religious circles, it's women's fault we're
> in this mess ("Here Adam, try this apple..."). It was Eve who brought Sin
> into the garden, I doubt the religious leaders would give them the same
> opportunity for the church.

That's an hopeless outdated vision, or should be listed for some
ultra orthodox line, not for the RC-church in general. If this were
the case then in the emancipated society of 2060 there would be no
RC-church left, simply because no woman it her right mind would
visit, or get into a relation with a RC-man. Again there is pressure
on the top layers to change, and if the pope is practical enough to
accept meta-humans and magic in one go, it shows that there is room
for more change and that he is not as conservative as the current
one.

> Show me a bunch of practical cardinals and I'll be inclined to
> agree with you. Until then, I'll have to disagree. In history, people
> have flocked to he churches in times of trouble. I'd say the Sixth world
> is as troubled as you're likely to find, so church membership probably
> rose BIG time in 2012 (the Awakening), 2017 (When all the volcanoes
> exploded), 2021 (Goblinization), 2029 (The Crash), 2033 (the Eurowars),
> 2056 (when Chicago's situation became public) are just examples of things
> that would drive people to the church. As well as their "openness" to
> metahumanity, a rarity in the Sixth World.

To any church that should read, remember that the traditional
churches have gained a stiff competition in newer religions who were
much quicker in accepting the changes. Every year they fail to adapt
to the changes in society around them they lose members, until they
are left with just a small core of conservative, mostly elderly
people (like is happening right now). They eventually die out,
leaving the church with no members. Like everywhere it's adapt or
become extinct.

> I knew we'd agree eventually. Probably another reason for
> increased membership in the churches would be the dispensing of healing
> 'gifts from God' from the priests (who'd ask merely for donations, of
> course).

The RC-church never followed a principle of payment for services. It
used to be "give me ten percent of what you earn, but that's a bit
impractical nowadays. During masses a bowl goes round for gifts to
maintain the church or for a good cause. You don't have to pay
anything if you don't want to. People pay for marriage and funeral
masses, but you don't pay for any extra services, that's purely an
American TV evangelist affair. But then again they might adapt in
that direction too (don't you just love progress...).

For the record, I left the RC-church when I was 18 officially and 15
in spirit, so I'm not disagreeing with you on religious grounds.

Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

From:	Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East
Date:	Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:07:29 +0000

Message no. 14 and thus did The Great Cornholio speak on 8 Sep 98 at 23:23:

> OK. As of today, with Pope John Paul, he said in a letter a little while ago
> that only men shall be priests and marriage is right out. If there is ANY
> leeway, it would be in allowing female priests, as a priest is, in essence,
> "married" to the Church. Plus, allowing female preists would pretty much
> outdate the orders of sisters around the world. Why be a nun when you can be
> a priest?

Because you don't like the outside world, or you think you don't fit
in anywhere. There are still monks around.

> A good source on current (2056) Church policy is Aztlan. There is a large
> discussion of the Church & policies and the New Society of Jesus (Jesuits).
> According to the chat in the book, the New Jesuits are "drek-hot deckers",
> "chromed to the teeth", "shock troops [of the Vatican]", and
"good theoretical
> magicians, but none are mages."

The Templars are an example of a magical order fully within the
church. Not adopting magic could be something as simple as a distrust
of it by the General who made that decision.

> Remember one thing... few things move slower at changing policy than the
> Church. It took them 300 years to acknowledge a heliocentric solar system.
> Contraceptive will probably still be taboo, even though it may be allowed to
> married couples. As long as all the Popes come from Europe, it's going to be
> a Conservative Papacy.

Now I find that last remark very strange. What exactly do you base
this statement on? IMO it should be as long as the higher clergy
doesn't realize that the church must change to survive in the next
millennium, nothing changes. Or as long as the pope continues to
appoint conservative cardinals, who in return also appoint
conservative popes.

> TGC

Good to see you back.

Now go forth and annoy Dr. Doom :)

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East
Date:	Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:23:40 -0400

Message no. 15 At 04:51 PM 9/6/98 +0000, you wrote:

>dogma of the RC and tried to keep the Church clergy together. How
>many people out there would continue to follow there religions when
>their brother/sister suddenly develops into an ork or elf? Would
>they follow the rules of their religious leaders and ostracize their
>family members? I wouldn't, and I am sure many out there wouldn't
>either. The many out there would definitely include a large number of
>the clergy who are supposed to be stronger in their beliefs. So many
>of them lef to find their faith or what not.

Gotta disagree in a major way here. Yes, there are those that would fall
away from their old faith and join a new one. FASA says as much.

But the vast majority of folks are going to, when faced with all these
strange and frightening changes of the Awakening, turn back to what is
comfortable, what they know. What will give them answers.

And that's the faith that they already have or are a part of . Many
Catholics, for example, will become even more devout in the face of the
Awakening. The Church provides them with answers, answers that have been
around for centuries. As opposed to some start-up church that only has a
doctrine a few months, hell, a few minutes old.

I make no judgement regarding whether or not the answers given are right,
wrong, good, bad, comfortable or not. But they are answers and ones that
have a certain amount of weight that can be given them.

So I would see a general increase in faith across the board. Lapsed
Catholics (don't mean to pick on ya'll, really) returning to their faith.
Wiccans now having the strength of real, demonstrable and obvious magic
behind their faith and beliefs. Jewish Quabbalists now being able to see
that their numerology and mysticism has a solid and quantifiable effect
(magic). And so on. So while there is likely to be an increase in the
number of different faiths, there is also likely to be an increase in the
number of believers too.

Erik J.

http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World

From:	"D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date:	Fri, 18 Sep 1998 22:59:26 -0500

Message no. 16 On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:42:32 EDT K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:
>I have managed to snip the entire thread for this new line of thought.
A
>strange bit questioning came up tonight between Mike B. another one of
our
>gaming cadre, and myself.
>
>Do churches in SR times still have the right to grant "sanctuary" in
most
>nations throughout the world? At least those that are part of the
greater
>body of the Roman Catholic Church? I know I'm reaching here with a
strange
>thought, but the term "extraterritoriality" suddenly took a new meaning
to us
>tonight.
>
>-K

I don't know about most places ... Definately not in Aztlan. :)

Hmmm ... perhaps if religions became corps?

D. Ghost (Who can't wait to pay his players in Cristianty, Inc stock ...)
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

From:	Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date:	Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:36:36 -0400

Message no. 17 On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:42:32 EDT K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:
>Do churches in SR times still have the right to grant "sanctuary" in
>most nations throughout the world? At least those that are part of the
>greater body of the Roman Catholic Church?

I don't think this was ever really a "right" of churches. From a political
perspective, sanctuary works in much the same way as asylum does. The
ability of a group to protect you from an aggressor is completely dependent
on how much power that group can bring to bear against the aggressor. By
granting someone sanctuary in a Catholic church is essentially saying to the
aggressor "by messing with this person while they are on our soil, you risk
the ire of the Roman Catholic Church". Historically, this worked pretty
well, because most places which have Catholic churches can bring large
amounts of political pressure to bear on the aggressor.

This power was much greater in the dark ages. If, say, the French army,
ignored sanctuary and burned down the church sheltering someone, the Pope
could, and probably would tell all the kings in Europe that they were
morally justified in attacking France.

In the modern age, the power of the Roman Catholic Church is diminished, but
if, for example, a corporate security cadre broke into a United States-based
church to get someone under sanctuary, the Pope would probably make a point
of speaking out against said corporation, and encouraging all faithful to
stop buying their products or working for them. This would probably be
hideously bad for the corporation.

As a counter-example, imagine someone given sanctuary in a Jewish synagogue
in Nazi Germany. Given the political climate in Germany at the time, very
little could be done to retaliate against Germany, so the concept of
"sanctuary" in such a place and time has nearly no meaning.

In the world of Shadowrun, it would depend a lot more on the location of the
incident and other mitigating factors. If Seader-Krupp tried something like
this in Germany, I'd wager that the public backlash would be pretty high. At
least high enough to allow other megas to gain significant market share in
Germany.

Wordman

From:	"Christopher M. Coulter" <kamikaze@*********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date:	Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:49:57 +0000

Message no. 18 > In the modern age, the power of the Roman Catholic Church is diminished, but
> if, for example, a corporate security cadre broke into a United States-based
> church to get someone under sanctuary, the Pope would probably make a point
> of speaking out against said corporation, and encouraging all faithful to
> stop buying their products or working for them. This would probably be
> hideously bad for the corporation.

Not to mention the shadow response the RC would do. Those Jesuits
are a pain in the ass if you go against the faith.

chris coulter

From:	The Mighty Dallandra <bz701@*********.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date:	Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:58:16 GMT

Message no. 19 A totally off topic joke while the list is quiet.

A man walks into the bar with a steering wheel hanging out of the
zip of his trousers.

He asks for a pint and the barman says, 'Sure, but did you know you
have a steering wheel hanging out of your flies?"

"Yeah," said the man. "They're driving me nuts!"

Thank you ladies and gentlemen.
__________________________________________________
All year round Email address: Dallandra@******.net
Website http://come.to/Dallandra

"No no no, you loopy Brothel Inmate!!"

From:	David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date:	Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:19:54 +0000

Message no. 20 There is a rather interesting piece of fiction by David Morrell entitled the
"Fraternity of the Stone" that includes a secret Roman Catholic strike arm and
inteligence service. It is set in the present day but is very good. It is a
free standing book but there are a couple others with overlapping characters.
They are all a good read and "Fraternity" contains some ideas that could be
imported in to Shadowrun.

David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org
******************************************************
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve niether liberty or
safety.
Ben Franklin

From:	John Penta <johndevil@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East
Date:	Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:38:20 -0400

Message no. 21 Could someone email me, at cpenta@*****.com, an archive of all the
messages on this thread? COOL thread.

JCP

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East
Date:	Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:17:29 -0400

Message no. 22 At 11:38 AM 9/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Could someone email me, at cpenta@*****.com, an archive of all the
>messages on this thread? COOL thread.

I was in the middle of this thread I only save I think a couple of the
messages, if that.

Martin, did you? (aren't you moving right now Martin?)

Best bet, find the RN archives. I'm sure someone from GridSec can tell you
where and how often they are updated. I've not had much use personally for
them, so I don't recall off the top of my head either. OOH! It's almost
certainly listed in the FAQ, I just remembered.

And thank you, on behalf of myself, Martin and the other participants. It
was a cool thread, especially since it can be tracked back weeks through
other threads that mutated over....

Erik J.

http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World

From:	Kama <kama@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East
Date:	Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:26:24 -0400

Message no. 23 On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Erik Jameson wrote:

> At 11:38 AM 9/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >Could someone email me, at cpenta@*****.com, an archive of all the
> >messages on this thread? COOL thread.
>
> I was in the middle of this thread I only save I think a couple of the
> messages, if that.
>
> Martin, did you? (aren't you moving right now Martin?)
>
> Best bet, find the RN archives. I'm sure someone from GridSec can tell you
> where and how often they are updated. I've not had much use personally for
> them, so I don't recall off the top of my head either. OOH! It's almost
> certainly listed in the FAQ, I just remembered.
>
> And thank you, on behalf of myself, Martin and the other participants. It
> was a cool thread, especially since it can be tracked back weeks through
> other threads that mutated over....
>

I believe that I have all of the posts from this thread (or dang close). I
will forward them as requested (the office is dead today . . . )

- Kama

From:	Adam J <adamj@*********.HTML.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East
Date:	Wed, 30 Sep 1998 20:36:00 -0600

Message no. 24 At 14:17 9/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>Could someone email me, at cpenta@*****.com, an archive of all the
>>messages on this thread? COOL thread.
>
>Best bet, find the RN archives. I'm sure someone from GridSec can tell you
>where and how often they are updated. I've not had much use personally for
>them, so I don't recall off the top of my head either. OOH! It's almost
>certainly listed in the FAQ, I just remembered.

ftp://listproc.itribe.net/pub/listserv

It's updated almost instantly, IIRC..

-Adam J

Mailing List Logs for

Further Reading

Disclaimer