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From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Thu, 3 Sep 1998 13:38:58 -0400

Message no. 1 At 09:55 AM 9/3/98 +0000, you wrote:

>It was both of them, seems like the pope adapted very quickly to the
>new situation. They must have gotten rid of the current people in
>power, since they tend to be fairly conservative (to prevent flame
>wars euphemistically phrased).

I think something was up. Perhaps some of their hidden away texts finally
made sense, perhaps there's an IE at play there, perhaps they simply woke
up and smelled the caffeine and figured they would get their collected
butts kicked if they didn't adapt and fast.

>So we have two kick-ass magical and combat orders within the RC
>church... I do wonder what the pope's plans for the future are...
>*shudder*

Yeah, *something* else is going on that we just don't know about. What is
really anybodies guess.

>One type yes, but they tend to leave the countries alone as long as
>it doesn't interfere with business, plus their armies tend to be on
>the small side. I meant there is no "new world order" that could

I get it.

>prevent countries like Iraq from taking over Kuwait again (and
>whatever they can get their hands on). If they do, and they insist
>that they will not interfere with the corporations, I don't think
>anyone will give a toss. There's no-one left to control the situation
>in the world at a moralistic or UN level. The UCAS is in shambles,
>Europe is a mess (like they would do much), Russia is a mess, China
>is no more, heck there's no super powers any more. I'll call that a
>power vacuum.

Okay. One factor is that obviously the Middle East would have been hit
very hard by the Awakening also. I'm sure millions died from the various
waves of VITAS (which, ironically, may have helped such nations as Egypt
and Turkei by releaving population pressure and by cutting the masses of
the poor that the radical groups tend to recruit from). Let's see now...

Perhaps the Kurds finally get their wish and get their own nation; perhaps
a much smaller version of the NAN break-away. Iraq in particular would be
hard hit by the revolt, the Turks would probably just make sure their oil
fields and pipelines are secure and let the Kurds go; perhaps signing a
mutual non-aggression treaty but clearly not being allies. Iran would
probably take advantage of the troubles in Iraq and make major moves in
that direction.

Some of the smaller nations, such as Kuwait and Jordan, might decide to
join a mutual defense league with the Saudi Arabians. Perhaps here you
have a nation(s) that is growing in size instead of breaking up. Perhaps.

Syria probably also takes advantage of Iraq's problems and ends up
splitting the country between the Kurds, Iran and themselves. They are of
course a strong military nation (at least regionally) and they continue
their aggressive stance towards Israel.

Speaking of which, Israel probably attempts to expand also, trying to give
themselves more of a buffer zone between their main populated areas and
"the enemy." I'm thinking they may even kick out the Palestinians if they
can get away with it. Of course, the Palestinians may decide they want the
whole country and not just parts of it and the nation erupts in bloodshed
as violent terrorist and guerilla warfare reigns. Or they could all decide
it's not worth the trouble and move en masse up to the remains of Lebanon
and finally have their own nation again.

>I think I'll be building my atomic shelter if I was living in that
>time.

Sometimes I think about it now...

>Arlgh, the evil "blink" tag. kill, destroy, maim!!!

Easy now...it's been gone for a long time now...

Erik J.

From:	Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:12:37 +0000

Message no. 2 and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 3 Sep 98 at 13:38:

> I think something was up. Perhaps some of their hidden away texts finally
> made sense, perhaps there's an IE at play there, perhaps they simply woke
> up and smelled the caffeine and figured they would get their collected
> butts kicked if they didn't adapt and fast.

I don't think the Vatican is IE country. There are some hints in the
Aztlan book that the Irish elves know most about them, but don't know
exactly what is going on. Maybe it's a magical order within the
Vatican that made a grab for power and started reforming the church.
People with access to the most secret parts of the library come to
mind (Librarians with real power... ooohh the mind boggles). Maybe
there is a long forgotten prophesy in there that predicts the rise of
the Tir's and the dangers to the church.

> >So we have two kick-ass magical and combat orders within the RC
> >church... I do wonder what the pope's plans for the future are...
> >*shudder*
> Yeah, *something* else is going on that we just don't know about. What is
> really anybodies guess.

Contra-reformation part II? The Tir's and Aztlan both removed the RC
church effectively. They are the biggest threats in 2060 and the
Vatican is probably gathering as much info as possible and is
plotting to overthrow their governments or move against those IE's
who are a serious problem.

> Okay. One factor is that obviously the Middle East would have been hit
> very hard by the Awakening also. I'm sure millions died from the various
> waves of VITAS (which, ironically, may have helped such nations as Egypt
> and Turkei by releaving population pressure and by cutting the masses of
> the poor that the radical groups tend to recruit from). Let's see now...

That's a good assessment.

> Perhaps the Kurds finally get their wish and get their own nation; perhaps
> a much smaller version of the NAN break-away. Iraq in particular would be
> hard hit by the revolt, the Turks would probably just make sure their oil
> fields and pipelines are secure and let the Kurds go; perhaps signing a
> mutual non-aggression treaty but clearly not being allies. Iran would
> probably take advantage of the troubles in Iraq and make major moves in
> that direction.

Yep, I can see that happening, there are some very big fields just
across the borders. Iraq probably has a lot more on its hands with a
possible revolution internally from lots of sides (depending if the
current government stays in charge).

> Some of the smaller nations, such as Kuwait and Jordan, might decide to
> join a mutual defense league with the Saudi Arabians. Perhaps here you
> have a nation(s) that is growing in size instead of breaking up. Perhaps.

The Kuwaiti are too tempting a target to hold out much on their own.
If the Iraqis don't take them out first, maybe the Iranis will. The
Saudi's are a good centre point for all those smaller nations to
flock too for support, specially the oil-rich ones.

> Syria probably also takes advantage of Iraq's problems and ends up
> splitting the country between the Kurds, Iran and themselves. They are of
> course a strong military nation (at least regionally) and they continue
> their aggressive stance towards Israel.

All depends a lot on the current regime staying in power. A lot of
nations are run by powerful man supported by a minority party. If
Assad meets his maker, gods know what happens. Same thing for
Iraq and Jordan (although in a lesser extend there).

Israel got hit in 2004 by a chemical attack from Libya. As a "thank
you" note, the Israeli nuked half the cities of Libya, probably
putting the country up for grabs. Egypt is a likely candidate
together with Algeria to divide the non-glowing oil fields between
them.
I don't know how heavily Israel was hit, but launching a bunch of
nukes must have angered and scared the living daylights out of their
neighbours. That should keep them from making any moves against
Israel.

> Speaking of which, Israel probably attempts to expand also, trying to give
> themselves more of a buffer zone between their main populated areas and
> "the enemy."

Israel might be in a good position to make a move, depending how
heavy the chemical attack was. They have an excellent health care
system, which probably saved them from the worst effects of VITAS
attacks. Although they are moving away from those policies
now, but who knows in the future when the area is less populated.
And who knows who is in power in Israel in the next century, maybe
some very expansionistic people who grew up believing that the
current appeasement policies failed.

> I'm thinking they may even kick out the Palestinians if they
> can get away with it. Of course, the Palestinians may decide they want the
> whole country and not just parts of it and the nation erupts in bloodshed
> as violent terrorist and guerilla warfare reigns. Or they could all decide
> it's not worth the trouble and move en masse up to the remains of Lebanon
> and finally have their own nation again.

That would be a good solution to the whole problem, if the Syrians
are willing to host them (which they aren't nowadays). Jordan also
comes to mind. If the Palestinians take over the country (IIRC they
do outnumber the natives by now), they could just call it Palestina.

I do love these discussions.

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

From:	"Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:20:16 -0300

Message no. 3 Martin Steffens wrote:
>
> and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 3 Sep 98 at 13:38:
>
> > I think something was up. Perhaps some of their hidden away texts finally
> > made sense, perhaps there's an IE at play there, perhaps they simply woke
> > up and smelled the caffeine and figured they would get their collected
> > butts kicked if they didn't adapt and fast.
>
> I don't think the Vatican is IE country. There are some hints in the
> Aztlan book that the Irish elves know most about them, but don't know
> exactly what is going on. Maybe it's a magical order within the
> Vatican that made a grab for power and started reforming the church.
> People with access to the most secret parts of the library come to
> mind (Librarians with real power... ooohh the mind boggles). Maybe
> there is a long forgotten prophesy in there that predicts the rise of
> the Tir's and the dangers to the church.

Or perhaps the Pope himself and a fair number of high-placed
priests became magically active, and that changed their minds about
magic. It must be really different when you're having a first-person
look ar it.

Bira

From:	Tomus Cone <brother_1@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 13:23:12 PDT

Message no. 4 >> People with access to the most secret parts of the library come to
>> mind (Librarians with real power...

Oook.

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From:	"Christopher M. Coulter" <kamikaze@*********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 15:23:53 +0000

Message no. 5 > Or perhaps the Pope himself and a fair number of high-placed
> priests became magically active, and that changed their minds about
> magic. It must be really different when you're having a first-person
> look ar it.
>
> Bira

Actually, the Pope is not magical. Remember, the current Pope was
not Pope until about 2012. Then came the famous Imago Dei
(Grimoire 2) speech thing.
The main reason for accepting magic and metahumanity was so as not to
alienate the population. Simple numbers was the reason for it.
Without people, there would be no church. I think the current pope
figured that out when he donned the cap.
I've done some research into that aspect and applied it to Shadowrun.
If anything, there are a number of internal secret factions that
would have hidden agendas concerning magic and the like.

Kamikaze

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 16:46:03 -0400

Message no. 6 At 12:12 PM 9/4/98 +0000, you wrote:

>> I think something was up. Perhaps some of their hidden away texts finally
>> made sense, perhaps there's an IE at play there, perhaps they simply woke
>> up and smelled the caffeine and figured they would get their collected
>> butts kicked if they didn't adapt and fast.
>
>I don't think the Vatican is IE country.

Yeah, well, maybe! Heh, just yanking your chain.

>exactly what is going on. Maybe it's a magical order within the
>Vatican that made a grab for power and started reforming the church.

Now this could happen I think. Or perhaps (another thought) one or more of
the powerful cardinals suddenly was able to cast spells. A powerful
cardinal would be able to have a strong influence on papal policy.

>People with access to the most secret parts of the library come to
>mind (Librarians with real power... ooohh the mind boggles). Maybe
>there is a long forgotten prophesy in there that predicts the rise of
>the Tir's and the dangers to the church.

Magic-commando-Librarians coming to kick your ass!!

Who else has access to the deepest darkest portions of the library?

>Contra-reformation part II? The Tir's and Aztlan both removed the RC
>church effectively. They are the biggest threats in 2060 and the
>Vatican is probably gathering as much info as possible and is
>plotting to overthrow their governments or move against those IE's
>who are a serious problem.

I think it is entirely possible that the Church is a counter-balance of
sorts to those players. I don't know that the motives or goals of the
Church are any better or worse than the Tir or Aztlan. But they do have an
unusual interest in them.

>Yep, I can see that happening, there are some very big fields just
>across the borders. Iraq probably has a lot more on its hands with a
>possible revolution internally from lots of sides (depending if the
>current government stays in charge).

Once Saddam is gone, Iraq is potentially in major trouble. As you say
later, many countries are essentially cults of personality. Libya with
Khadafi for example. Saddam Hussein with Iraq. They've both eliminated
really any competent opposition to them. Which essentially means they've
eliminated anyone else, friendly or not, of running the country. Awakening
or not, Iraq is in for a whole heap of trouble.

>The Kuwaiti are too tempting a target to hold out much on their own.
>If the Iraqis don't take them out first, maybe the Iranis will. The
>Saudi's are a good centre point for all those smaller nations to
>flock too for support, specially the oil-rich ones.

I could see Iran, after stomping on parts of Iraq, making aggressive moves
towards Kuwaitt. Kuwaitt, knowing that the US/UCAS is no longer able to
help it, turns to Saudi Arabia. It is eventually absorbed into Saudi
Arabia. Jordan has a capable military, but it may also turn to Saudi
Arabia (which simply has the insane wealth to have bought/continue to buy
state of the art weaponry and enough manpower to use it) for similar
reasons, though perhaps against Syria. A thought anyway.

>All depends a lot on the current regime staying in power. A lot of
>nations are run by powerful man supported by a minority party. If
>Assad meets his maker, gods know what happens. Same thing for
>Iraq and Jordan (although in a lesser extend there).

I think Jordan is in a better situation with King Hussein (no relation to
Saddam). But agreed.

>Israel got hit in 2004 by a chemical attack from Libya. As a "thank
>you" note, the Israeli nuked half the cities of Libya, probably
>putting the country up for grabs. Egypt is a likely candidate
>together with Algeria to divide the non-glowing oil fields between
>them.

Well...Algeria is right now in the midst of a major civil war. Extremely
hard core Muslim militants have been waging a vicious and bloody civil war
against the current government. I could see them eventually winning and
decide that it is the will of Allah(God) to recreate the old Islamic
empires and do their best to take what's left of Libya.

I always forget that piece of SR history BTW. Don't know why.

>I don't know how heavily Israel was hit, but launching a bunch of
>nukes must have angered and scared the living daylights out of their
>neighbours. That should keep them from making any moves against
>Israel.

It probably also isolated Israel in the international community too though.
Israel probably survives the Awakening better than most Middle Eastern
nations, but I doubt it's thriving.

>And who knows who is in power in Israel in the next century, maybe
>some very expansionistic people who grew up believing that the
>current appeasement policies failed.

Entirely possible.

>That would be a good solution to the whole problem, if the Syrians
>are willing to host them (which they aren't nowadays). Jordan also
>comes to mind. If the Palestinians take over the country (IIRC they
>do outnumber the natives by now), they could just call it Palestina.

Neither the Syrians nor the Jordians really like the Palestinians much. My
general thought is that perhaps Lebanon is essentially taken over after the
Israeli's kick out the Palestinians. I *think* parts of Lebanon are
independent again. Syria would certainly keep it's share and Israel too,
but there might be enough left over for a single contiguous stretch of land
for the Palestinians to call Palestine.

>I do love these discussions.

Oh certainly. I do wonder sometimes if we are only having a conversation
amongst ourselves...

Erik J.

http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World

From:	Kama <kama@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 16:55:48 -0400

Message no. 7 On Fri, 4 Sep 1998, Erik Jameson wrote:

> At 12:12 PM 9/4/98 +0000, you wrote:
>
( major snip)
>
> >I do love these discussions.
>
> Oh certainly. I do wonder sometimes if we are only having a conversation
> amongst ourselves...
>
> Erik J.
>
>
Don't worry, y'all may be doing all the talking, but you do have
listeners.

- Kama

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 14:14:31 -0700

Message no. 8 >Actually, the Pope is not magical. Remember, the current Pope was
>not Pope until about 2012. Then came the famous Imago Dei
>(Grimoire 2) speech thing.

Not necessarily. There have been several characters in the game universe
that "spontaneously" evince magical capabilities, the latest being David
Dragonson.

>Kamikaze

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	"Christopher M. Coulter" <kamikaze@*********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 16:18:26 +0000

Message no. 9 > Not necessarily. There have been several characters in the game universe
> that "spontaneously" evince magical capabilities, the latest being David
> Dragonson.

True, but if anything, the Pope would most likely be a part of those
secret societies that have a large interes in magic.

Kamikaze

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 18:10:27 -0500

Message no. 10 ----------
> From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>

> >exactly what is going on. Maybe it's a magical order within the
> >Vatican that made a grab for power and started reforming the church.
>
> Now this could happen I think. Or perhaps (another thought) one or more
of
> the powerful cardinals suddenly was able to cast spells. A powerful
> cardinal would be able to have a strong influence on papal policy.

Especially if he used Influence on the papal one...

> >People with access to the most secret parts of the library come to
> >mind (Librarians with real power... ooohh the mind boggles). Maybe
> >there is a long forgotten prophesy in there that predicts the rise of
> >the Tir's and the dangers to the church.
>
> Magic-commando-Librarians coming to kick your ass!!

Yeah... screw with the Jesuits in Aztlan... (which reminds me of a
character concept to work on...)

> Who else has access to the deepest darkest portions of the library?

The Illuminati, of course.

> >I do love these discussions.
>
> Oh certainly. I do wonder sometimes if we are only having a
conversation
> amongst ourselves...

I like reading them, though I'm not much up on canon history to take part.

And of course, FASA could destroy this all by just publishing a book
called Target: Earth, and give us an overview of the damn planet, instead
of these damn snippets that drive us nuts. 5-10 pages on large chunks of
the world, with the major players and such going on. As much as I slam
Palladium for its sometimes huge generalizations, those can really help to
understand the world (I also slam Palladium for its sometimes obsessive
amount of detail... like telling us the name and location of every single
shop in a 300,000 person town).

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
"One thing's for sure: It'll be years before Chelsea is willing to give a
guy a blow job."
Rick Leahy, Carpenter

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 19:29:57 -0400

Message no. 11 At 06:10 PM 9/4/98 -0500, you wrote:

>> the powerful cardinals suddenly was able to cast spells. A powerful
>> cardinal would be able to have a strong influence on papal policy.
>
>Especially if he used Influence on the papal one...

Nasty thought there Nexx...it is concievable though. The Vatican is as
rife with politics as any capitol or major corporation.

>> Magic-commando-Librarians coming to kick your ass!!
>
>Yeah... screw with the Jesuits in Aztlan... (which reminds me of a
>character concept to work on...)

Please, don't create a librarian commando! The game police might have to
haul you off in the white jacket with the funny sleeves...

>And of course, FASA could destroy this all by just publishing a book
>called Target: Earth, and give us an overview of the damn planet, instead
>of these damn snippets that drive us nuts. 5-10 pages on large chunks of
>the world, with the major players and such going on. As much as I slam

But that would limit yours and their flexibility later on to deal with
those various bits. I don't like it myself and I've been in on-again
off-again discussions with FASA about it, but they won't budge. SR3 did
offer a bit more information about the world though.

>Palladium for its sometimes huge generalizations, those can really help to
>understand the world (I also slam Palladium for its sometimes obsessive
>amount of detail... like telling us the name and location of every single
>shop in a 300,000 person town).

That's just sick...just utterly sick...

>"One thing's for sure: It'll be years before Chelsea is willing to give a
>guy a blow job."

Ain't that the truth; *almost* have got to feel sorry for her boyfriends
(well, I do already but that's beside the point). Great quote.

Erik J.

http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 18:39:46 -0500

Message no. 12 ----------
> From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
> At 06:10 PM 9/4/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >> the powerful cardinals suddenly was able to cast spells. A powerful
> >> cardinal would be able to have a strong influence on papal policy.
> >
> >Especially if he used Influence on the papal one...
>
> Nasty thought there Nexx...it is concievable though. The Vatican is as
> rife with politics as any capitol or major corporation.

I know. Think about a minor functionary who used an influence spell on
the college of cardinals... sure, the guy only serves drinks, but he's got
a bit on the ball magically, and so he gently steers the conversation the
ways he wants it to go... no one even notices that this functionary (a
covert member of Alamos 20,000) is interjecting little comments, which are
then taken up as causes... soon the Church has declared war on the
Awakened... years go by before anyone says "What the fuck are we doing?"
But by that time, the damage is done... Aztlan and Tir na Og have given
Catholicism holy hell (no pun intended), and have put previously friendly
and primarily Awakened nations on bad footing with one of the most
organized religions in the world...

> >> Magic-commando-Librarians coming to kick your ass!!
> >
> >Yeah... screw with the Jesuits in Aztlan... (which reminds me of a
> >character concept to work on...)
>
> Please, don't create a librarian commando! The game police might have
to
> haul you off in the white jacket with the funny sleeves...

Actually, I was thinking an ex-Jesuit Hermetic who grew disillusioned with
the New Society of Jesus, and now sells his skills in order to make a
living... think Former Company Man who can't hide from his CEO <g>.

> >And of course, FASA could destroy this all by just publishing a book
> >called Target: Earth, and give us an overview of the damn planet,
instead
> >of these damn snippets that drive us nuts. 5-10 pages on large chunks
of
> >the world, with the major players and such going on. As much as I slam
>
> But that would limit yours and their flexibility later on to deal with
> those various bits. I don't like it myself and I've been in on-again
> off-again discussions with FASA about it, but they won't budge. SR3 did
> offer a bit more information about the world though.

If its done right, it won't limit them too much, actually. Like I said, a
broad overview. Hell, I would buy a Shadowrun-era history/polsci textbook
and read it cover to cover, just so I could figure out what the world was
like.

> >Palladium for its sometimes huge generalizations, those can really help
to
> >understand the world (I also slam Palladium for its sometimes obsessive
> >amount of detail... like telling us the name and location of every
single
> >shop in a 300,000 person town).
>
> That's just sick...just utterly sick...

And true. Take a look at "Adventures on the High Seas" or "The Old
Ones"
next time you drift into your game store... they get obsessive about it,
and conveniently forget to tell you what people wear or how they speak.

> >"One thing's for sure: It'll be years before Chelsea is willing to give
a
> >guy a blow job."
>
> Ain't that the truth; *almost* have got to feel sorry for her boyfriends
> (well, I do already but that's beside the point). Great quote.

Gotta love the Onion. I read it religiously.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
"One thing's for sure: It'll be years before Chelsea is willing to give a
guy a blow job."
Rick Leahy, Carpenter

From:	Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 20:47:47 EDT

Message no. 13 In a message dated 9/4/98 1:19:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR writes:

> Or perhaps the Pope himself and a fair number of high-placed
> priests became magically active, and that changed their minds about
> magic. It must be really different when you're having a first-person
> look ar it.
>
you also must assume that at least some members of the church are magically
active,, based on faith manifestation. The church would most likeyl draw them
into the magical orders ("gotta serve god") and so even if the Pope and such
are not magical (which they might be, but they would need to keep it secret)
they still have vast amounts of magic at their disposal.

From:	Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Fri, 4 Sep 1998 21:06:17 -0400

Message no. 14 Tomus Cone--

>>> People with access to the most secret parts of the library come to
>>> mind (Librarians with real power...
>
>Oook.

Ooook. Oook ook oook eeeeeek oook aooook Oook.
Oook!
Oook oook eek oook ook?

Translation: It's not just the Librarian that has the power, but the
Library is a pretty studly wielder of Octarine, too. So don't mess with
either of us, got it? By the way, could you do Deformed Bunny again? It's=

my favorite.

Shadowmage

From:	Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Sat, 5 Sep 1998 13:28:20 +0000

Message no. 15 and thus did Christopher M. Coulter speak on 4 Sep 98 at 15:23:

> Actually, the Pope is not magical. Remember, the current Pope was
> not Pope until about 2012. Then came the famous Imago Dei
> (Grimoire 2) speech thing.

Where do you read that the pope is not magically active in that? The
Vatican always had a second set of rules for it's own behaviour, so
it might have been perfectly acceptable for the clergy in the inner
circle to practise magic, as long as they don't show it to the
outside world. The "Imago Dei" bull's late arrival has more to do
with power politics than anything else, he probably waited to see how
the general public's reaction was and then waited some more years
under continuous pressure from all kind of groups and finally
published the bull (for those who are non-catholic, a bull is the
name for papal writs, it doesn't have it's usual meaning here :).

> The main reason for accepting magic and metahumanity was so as not to
> alienate the population. Simple numbers was the reason for it.
> Without people, there would be no church. I think the current pope
> figured that out when he donned the cap.

That didn't stop the current one so far... But the logic of your
statement is sound.

> I've done some research into that aspect and applied it to Shadowrun.
> If anything, there are a number of internal secret factions that
> would have hidden agendas concerning magic and the like.

Would you be willing to share the results and conclusions of your
research with us, I for one am interested.

Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

From:	Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Sat, 5 Sep 1998 13:28:20 +0000

Message no. 16 and thus did Tomus Cone speak on 4 Sep 98 at 13:23:

> >> People with access to the most secret parts of the library come to
> >> mind (Librarians with real power...
>
> Oook.

Thanks Tomus, you just won me a bet :).
(the bet being that someone would write "ook" or "eek" within a day
of me making that remark).

Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

From:	Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Sat, 5 Sep 1998 13:28:20 +0000

Message no. 17 and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 4 Sep 98 at 16:46:

> >I don't think the Vatican is IE country.
>
> Yeah, well, maybe! Heh, just yanking your chain.

*grin*

> >exactly what is going on. Maybe it's a magical order within the
> >Vatican that made a grab for power and started reforming the church.
>
> Now this could happen I think. Or perhaps (another thought) one or more of
> the powerful cardinals suddenly was able to cast spells. A powerful
> cardinal would be able to have a strong influence on papal policy.

Building on to that one: Isn't the theory that certain places
"created" more magicians than others? I can just imagine the Vatican
being one of those places. Once a few cardinals or arch-bishops start
tossing spells, it is indeed a hard thing to ignore them, or kick
them out. Maybe there was a short but nasty power struggle between
the two factions, and the anti-magic faction lost.

> >People with access to the most secret parts of the library come to
> >mind (Librarians with real power... ooohh the mind boggles). Maybe
> >there is a long forgotten prophesy in there that predicts the rise of
> >the Tir's and the dangers to the church.
> Magic-commando-Librarians coming to kick your ass!!

<Darth Vader voice>
I have you now...
This book is overdue, pay up, or face the dark side of the force.
</Darth Vader voice>

Knowledge is Power, and an Assault Cannon too :). This reminds me of
the Order of Gray Knights in WH40K, they were an order of librarians
/ mages trained as marines, gengineered to the max and walked
around with a neat arsenal and armour. They were used to kill deamons
and other abominations of chaos.
It would be a good function for those cyber/magic orders to eliminate
blood mages, dispell powerful spirits, kill insect spirits, etc. etc.
A sort of super Ghost Busters

> Who else has access to the deepest darkest portions of the library?

The Librarian (as in the head of the library) and a few of his
aides... the Pope I guess :), the cardinals (very likely) and then a
select group with special rights. IIRC some of the high ranking
exorcists. I'm not sure though.

> I think it is entirely possible that the Church is a counter-balance of
> sorts to those players. I don't know that the motives or goals of the
> Church are any better or worse than the Tir or Aztlan. But they do have an
> unusual interest in them.

If the horrors weren't gone, I would know what that interest was. The
link between horrors and demons is quickly made. Heck, most of that
stuff was written before they got rid of the horror invasion
scenario, so who knows. Alternatively they could see magic as one of
the biggest threats in the world and keep a close tap on the big
players.

> Once Saddam is gone, Iraq is potentially in major trouble. As you say
> later, many countries are essentially cults of personality. Libya with
> Khadafi for example. Saddam Hussein with Iraq. They've both eliminated
> really any competent opposition to them. Which essentially means they've
> eliminated anyone else, friendly or not, of running the country. Awakening
> or not, Iraq is in for a whole heap of trouble.

Depending if his Baat party can agree on a successor (not very
likely) and then suppress any revolts after they take care of internal
factions. I would move some money abroad, and keep a ticket handy if
I were Tariq Aziz or someone like him.
BTW, while rereading the "How it came to be" section I also noticed
that the Sunnite sections accepted magic and meta-humanity fairly
smoothly, while the Shi-ites are still prosecuting them. Now I
remember most of the countries there being largely Sunnite, but Iran
is Shi-ite. That would put a bit of a brake on the expansion
politics, if they prosecute meta-humans and condemn magic.

> I could see Iran, after stomping on parts of Iraq, making aggressive moves
> towards Kuwaitt. Kuwaitt, knowing that the US/UCAS is no longer able to
> help it, turns to Saudi Arabia. It is eventually absorbed into Saudi
> Arabia. Jordan has a capable military, but it may also turn to Saudi
> Arabia (which simply has the insane wealth to have bought/continue to buy
> state of the art weaponry and enough manpower to use it) for similar
> reasons, though perhaps against Syria. A thought anyway.

Workable scenario. Turkey, Egypt, Jordan and the Saudi-confederation
vs. Iraq-Syria vs. Iran-Afghanistan-Sudan-Libya vs. Israel (which
might be linked to the first group, since it's not too unfriendly
with them right now).

> I think Jordan is in a better situation with King Hussein (no relation to
> Saddam). But agreed.

King Hussein has been diagnosed with cancer, so who knows how long he
will stay in power before giving over to his son. But I agree that
Jordan is more stable than many of the others (although they do have
a pretty large Palestinian population who might decide to do
something).

> Well...Algeria is right now in the midst of a major civil war. Extremely
> hard core Muslim militants have been waging a vicious and bloody civil war
> against the current government. I could see them eventually winning and
> decide that it is the will of Allah(God) to recreate the old Islamic
> empires and do their best to take what's left of Libya.

I don't think they will win, and if they do, there won't be much of a
country left to rule for them. They're insane, and no longer a
majority by far. So far the state is holding out nicely, but at a
high price in casualties on the civilian population. This is one of
those conflicts where I simply cannot grasp what motivation or
political goals they intend to pursue by killing of villages. Sick...

> I always forget that piece of SR history BTW. Don't know why.

Because it's only mentioned there, and it never comes back anywhere
else.

> It probably also isolated Israel in the international community too though.
> Israel probably survives the Awakening better than most Middle Eastern
> nations, but I doubt it's thriving.

Right now the economy is under heavy pressure from the influx of new
immigrants (mostly from Russia). This might also be one of those
countries which could benefit from a population decrease.

> Neither the Syrians nor the Jordanians really like the Palestinians much. My
> general thought is that perhaps Lebanon is essentially taken over after the
> Israeli's kick out the Palestinians. I *think* parts of Lebanon are
> independent again. Syria would certainly keep it's share and Israel too,
> but there might be enough left over for a single contiguous stretch of land
> for the Palestinians to call Palestine.

IIRC King Hussein had his own little problem with the Palestinians.
They walked around the country like they owned it, and were becoming
a threat to internal security. Then the King decided enough is enough
and waged a short but very bloody war on them, almost driving them
to the brink of extinction. It wouldn't suprise me if a Palestine, if
it ever came to be, would collapse after a few years and dissolve
into chaos.

> >I do love these discussions.
>
> Oh certainly. I do wonder sometimes if we are only having a conversation
> amongst ourselves...

Naah, Tolmwappers :). If we're the only ones someone would have
barged in long ago and told us to take it private :).
I'm more worried about running out of countries I actually know
something about :).

Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

From:	"Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Sat, 5 Sep 1998 13:04:54 -0300

Message no. 18 Nexx wrote:
>
> I know. Think about a minor functionary who used an influence spell on
> the college of cardinals... sure, the guy only serves drinks, but he's got
> a bit on the ball magically, and so he gently steers the conversation the
> ways he wants it to go... no one even notices that this functionary (a
> covert member of Alamos 20,000) is interjecting little comments, which are
> then taken up as causes... soon the Church has declared war on the
> Awakened... years go by before anyone says "What the fuck are we doing?"
> But by that time, the damage is done... Aztlan and Tir na Og have given
> Catholicism holy hell (no pun intended), and have put previously friendly
> and primarily Awakened nations on bad footing with one of the most
> organized religions in the world...
>

That if said agent can go through the Vatican's own magical screening
personell, which I guess he can't.

Bira

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Sat, 5 Sep 1998 19:41:18 -0500

Message no. 19 ----------
> From: Ubiratan P. Alberton <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
> Nexx wrote:
> >
> > I know. Think about a minor functionary who used an influence spell
on
> > the college of cardinals...

<snip>

> That if said agent can go through the Vatican's own magical screening
> personell, which I guess he can't.

First off, you can get past a magical screen. Mask your aura well enough,
don't carry anything active, and even the tightest of nets will yield a
hole. Secondly, this guy doesn't necessarily need to be a mage himself...
what if you anchored a spell to him, then hide the link in a metaplane...
sure, its a pain in the ass, but it will let him slip through long enough
to do the damage you need. Lastly (and this shoulda gone first), we're
talking back when Rome wasn't sure what to make of magic... I doubt they'd
have too many people on the Swiss Guard who were capable of taking an
astral look-see to catch you.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
"You fail, Death-Lord! You destroy the instrument, but not its music.
With all your power you have gained only a broken shell."
In that moment, when the harp had been silenced, arose the songs of
birds, the chiming of brooks, the humming of wind through grass and
leaves; and all these voices took up the strands of melody, more beautiful
than before.
-Lloyd Alexander, "The Smith, The Weaver, and the Harper"

From:	"Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Sat, 5 Sep 1998 21:50:17 -0300

Message no. 20 Nexx wrote:
>
> First off, you can get past a magical screen. Mask your aura well enough,
> don't carry anything active, and even the tightest of nets will yield a
> hole. Secondly, this guy doesn't necessarily need to be a mage himself...
> what if you anchored a spell to him, then hide the link in a metaplane...
> sure, its a pain in the ass, but it will let him slip through long enough
> to do the damage you need. Lastly (and this shoulda gone first), we're
> talking back when Rome wasn't sure what to make of magic... I doubt they'd
> have too many people on the Swiss Guard who were capable of taking an
> astral look-see to catch you.

This could wield a good SR story... BTW, Nexx, have you already read
the file I sent you?

Bira

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Sat, 5 Sep 1998 19:49:02 -0500

Message no. 21 ----------
> From: Ubiratan P. Alberton <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>

> This could wield a good SR story... BTW, Nexx, have you already read
> the file I sent you?

The one on the Ba? Yeah. its interesting enough, and gives me some
ideas. Let me get a copy of the GM screen, find out how they treat
Shapeshifters, and I'll see what I can do to turn them into something a
bit more usable than the gods we know and love.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
"You fail, Death-Lord! You destroy the instrument, but not its music.
With all your power you have gained only a broken shell."
In that moment, when the harp had been silenced, arose the songs of
birds, the chiming of brooks, the humming of wind through grass and
leaves; and all these voices took up the strands of melody, more beautiful
than before.
-Lloyd Alexander, "The Smith, The Weaver, and the Harper"

From:	"Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Sat, 5 Sep 1998 22:01:02 -0300

Message no. 22 Nexx wrote:
>
> ----------
> > From: Ubiratan P. Alberton <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
>
> > This could wield a good SR story... BTW, Nexx, have you already read
> > the file I sent you?
>
> The one on the Ba? Yeah. its interesting enough, and gives me some
> ideas. Let me get a copy of the GM screen, find out how they treat
> Shapeshifters, and I'll see what I can do to turn them into something a
> bit more usable than the gods we know and love.

So you found them too powerful? I had trouble running my Ba player
thru
one of the adventures in Super Tuesday (without modifying anything on
it.)...

What did you find too powerful?

Bira

From:	Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 02:15:01 -0700

Message no. 23 Nexx wrote:

> > That if said agent can go through the Vatican's own magical screening
> > personell, which I guess he can't.

> Lastly (and this shoulda gone first), we're
> talking back when Rome wasn't sure what to make of magic... I doubt they'd
> have too many people on the Swiss Guard who were capable of taking an
> astral look-see to catch you.

This works against the would-be infiltrators just as well: you have to
have an individual(s) who a) recognizes hsi ability instantly; b) at a
level (anchorings?) greater than his target and c) has the time and
motivation to do so.
Someone from outside the Church is going to have a hard time doing this:
there's a lot of internal politics that aren't recognizable from
outside, it's not as easy as point-cast-and-destroy.

Different twist: Wouldn't a mage with Increase Charisma +4 be an
interesting power-behind-the-throne? Yes, Mr. Clinton, you're popular
in the polls *now* ....

- Matt

------------------------------------
GridSec: SRCard / Freedonian Research Assistant / BABY #92
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Sat, 5 Sep 1998 22:09:35 -0500

Message no. 24 ----------
> From: Ubiratan P. Alberton <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
> > The one on the Ba? Yeah. its interesting enough, and gives me some
> > ideas. Let me get a copy of the GM screen, find out how they treat
> > Shapeshifters, and I'll see what I can do to turn them into something
a
> > bit more usable than the gods we know and love.
>
> So you found them too powerful? I had trouble running my Ba player
> thru one of the adventures in Super Tuesday (without modifying anything
on
> it.)...
>
> What did you find too powerful?

I was more talking about the shapers in general... been a bit since I read
over the specifics of the Ba.

From:	Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 12:27:11 +0000

Message no. 25 and thus did Michael vanHulst speak on 4 Sep 98 at 20:30:

> And the game Nephilim from Chaosium is also a decent spurce for what Templars
> and other secrets societies would be like in a truly magic world. The game has
> been disconitued for now, but was/is French and still going there (I think)

That reminds me of something:
Remember how the IE's were called Watchers in Worlds without End.
Many of the ancient religions called their gods Watchers, their kings
would be the god's farmer or something similar. As if their gods
would watch over what they were doing, and mankind wouldn't be more
than slaves.

Piece from the Egyptian book of dead: "'Deliver thou the scribe
Nebseni, whose word is truth, from the Watchers, who carry murderous
knives, who possess cruel fingers, and who would slay those who are
in the following of Osiris.' May these Watchers never gain the
mastery over me, and may I never fall under their knives!'"

Cute, neh?

Now look at these pieces from the Jewish / Christian tradition:

"For in his days the angels of the Lord descended upon earth - those
who are named The Watchers - that they should instruct the children
of men, that they should do judgement and uprightness upon earth."
- The Book of Jubilees

"According to the Book of Jubilees, the Watchers are the sons of god
(Genesis 6) sent from heaven to instruct the children of men; they
fell after they descended to earth and cohabited with the daughters of
men - for which act they were condemned (so legend reports) and became
fallen angels. But not all Watchers descended: those that remained are
the holy Watchers, and they reside in the 5th Heaven. The evil
Watchers dwell either in the 3rd Heaven or in Hell."
- A Dictionary of Angels

Now you're the pope and you know of these IE's being around for ages.
Then you discover that they are calling themselves Watchers. Your
trusted librarian gives you above references from the Library. What
will you do?

Interesting, neh?

Martin,
(The Trivia Buff <strikes again!/ha:ha:ha>)

From:	"Christopher M. Coulter" <kamikaze@*********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Sun, 6 Sep 1998 15:15:12 +0000

Message no. 26 > Would you be willing to share the results and conclusions of your
> research with us, I for one am interested.

Basically, it's what everyone would think. Vatican City would
probably reunite with Rome in Shadowrun after the civil wars in
Europe. Then you'd have a large metroplex in which the Roman
Catholic Church is a dominant force in most of Europe due to its
apparent cohesive power. Internally, though, there would probably be
about three major factions in the Church. One, probably led by the
Dominicans, would be against the "Imago Dei" papal bull and seek to
cleanse the Church of the evils of magic and metahumanity. Another
would probably be led by the New Jesuits who (as is prevalent in
real history) seek a progressive view of the Church and want it to
adapt to the new world. And then there are the moderates who are
trying to keep everything from falling apart and want the Church to
hold quite a bit of power.
And with all those factions, plus the Church's (at least in my
perspective) hold on many of the small countries of Europe, many of
the Megacorps seek to gain the favor of the Papacy. This is because
if the Church/Pope/College of Cardinals don't like what a corp is
doing, they could "black-ball" them and ask followers in power to
make embargoes against them. Interesting enough, this would make
opponent corps of embargoed businesses happy so there would probably
be support by these organizations.
As someone mentioned earlier on this post, Vatican would be great to
do some shadowruns in. Think of the Church and civil politics, the
corps stuff and all the turmoil in the area.
Not to mention, unless the current pope is an elf, that there should
be a Papal election by the College of Cardinals pretty soon. By my
estimate, the pope mentioned in Grimoire 2 should be around the late
80s or early nineties. And this election would not be run by the
people but by Cardinals with their own agendas. This would
definitely make the last UCAS election look like a junior high
popularity contest.
Incidently, if any of you decided to look up the Order (?) of St.
Sylvester, you may be interested to know that it is only an honorary
organization with no actual (at least publicly known) function.

kamikaze

From:	rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 09:11:05 -0500

Message no. 27 >Yeah... screw with the Jesuits in Aztlan... (which reminds me of a
>character concept to work on...)

Being raised a good catholic boy, this idea intrigues me as well.
Anyone come up with a playable Jesuit character or set of rules for
creating the same?

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Proud owner of #972

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:52:36 -0500

Message no. 28 ----------
> From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
>
> >Yeah... screw with the Jesuits in Aztlan... (which reminds me of a
> >character concept to work on...)
>
> Being raised a good catholic boy, this idea intrigues me as well.
> Anyone come up with a playable Jesuit character or set of rules for
> creating the same?

This one isn't exactly a Jesuit. To put it simply, he was a Hermetic Mage
in the Jesuit order for a couple of years, but after something really
fragged up, he left the Church (did not lose his faith, but he left the
church). Basically, he's Obi-Wan Kenobi who used to wear a collar.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
The place to improve the world is in one's own heart and head and hands,
and then work outward from there. Other people talk about how to expand
the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a
motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value.
-Robert Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

From:	"Christopher M. Coulter" <kamikaze@*********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 13:36:56 +0000

Message no. 29 > Being raised a good catholic boy, this idea intrigues me as well.
> Anyone come up with a playable Jesuit character or set of rules for
> creating the same?
>
My best advice would be to use the special forces ideas in the SR
Companion and give them the new SR3 knowledge backgrounds dealing
with the RC. That should work very well.

Kamikaze

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:23:10 -0400

Message no. 30 At 01:28 PM 9/5/98 +0000, you wrote:

>> Now this could happen I think. Or perhaps (another thought) one or more of
>> the powerful cardinals suddenly was able to cast spells. A powerful
>> cardinal would be able to have a strong influence on papal policy.
>
>Building on to that one: Isn't the theory that certain places
>"created" more magicians than others? I can just imagine the Vatican
>being one of those places. Once a few cardinals or arch-bishops start
>tossing spells, it is indeed a hard thing to ignore them, or kick
>them out. Maybe there was a short but nasty power struggle between
>the two factions, and the anti-magic faction lost.

I'm not sure about a "nasty" power struggle, but if a few cardinals
suddenly are able to toss mana around, that would certainly have a powerful
effect on church policy. Given how monolithic and slow-moving the Catholic
Church can be, that might be the *only* way for the church to have adapted
as quickly as it did.

><Darth Vader voice>
>I have you now...
>This book is overdue, pay up, or face the dark side of the force.
></Darth Vader voice>

Hah! You know, with my voice as thrashed as it is right now, I can do a
really cool impersonation of Darth Vader...not quite as deep, but I've got
the rest!

>Knowledge is Power, and an Assault Cannon too :). This reminds me of
>the Order of Gray Knights in WH40K, they were an order of librarians
>/ mages trained as marines, gengineered to the max and walked
>around with a neat arsenal and armour. They were used to kill deamons
>and other abominations of chaos.
>It would be a good function for those cyber/magic orders to eliminate
>blood mages, dispell powerful spirits, kill insect spirits, etc. etc.
>A sort of super Ghost Busters

This sounds a lot like the descriptions of the New Jesuits found in Aztlan.
Many of them are at least the equal of most shadowrunners in combat
ability, but they can also do rhetoric, quote the bible and carry on deep
and convoluted theological debates.

>Depending if his Baat party can agree on a successor (not very
>likely) and then suppress any revolts after they take care of internal
>factions. I would move some money abroad, and keep a ticket handy if
>I were Tariq Aziz or someone like him.

Oh yeah. Saddam has killed off nearly anyone else that is strong enough to
rule Iraq. That doesn't bode well for the future.

>BTW, while rereading the "How it came to be" section I also noticed
>that the Sunnite sections accepted magic and meta-humanity fairly
>smoothly, while the Shi-ites are still prosecuting them. Now I
>remember most of the countries there being largely Sunnite, but Iran
>is Shi-ite. That would put a bit of a brake on the expansion
>politics, if they prosecute meta-humans and condemn magic.

Which is totally odd. The Sunni have traditionally been more conservative
and resistant to change. The Shi'as (Shi'ites) on the other hand have
traditionally be more apt to change and to adapt. But they've also, in
that same vein now that I think about it, more apt to accept more radical
(left and right leaning) interpretations of the Quran. About 90% of
muslims are of Sunni "persuasion" and around 10% are Shi'a.

Why would a Shi'a Iran not want to expand if they persecute metahumans and
condemn magic? I don't understand why not. I'm sure they'd still march on
in, especially if it can be turned/twisted to a holy war of cleansing.

>Workable scenario. Turkey, Egypt, Jordan and the Saudi-confederation
>vs. Iraq-Syria vs. Iran-Afghanistan-Sudan-Libya vs. Israel (which
>might be linked to the first group, since it's not too unfriendly
>with them right now).

I could see that.

>King Hussein has been diagnosed with cancer, so who knows how long he
>will stay in power before giving over to his son. But I agree that
>Jordan is more stable than many of the others (although they do have
>a pretty large Palestinian population who might decide to do
>something).

But that large Palestinian population is *mostly* found still in refugee
camps. If Jordan wanted to destroy those, it wouldn't be that hard.

>> Well...Algeria is right now in the midst of a major civil war. Extremely
>
>I don't think they will win, and if they do, there won't be much of a
>country left to rule for them. They're insane, and no longer a
>majority by far. So far the state is holding out nicely, but at a
>high price in casualties on the civilian population. This is one of
>those conflicts where I simply cannot grasp what motivation or
>political goals they intend to pursue by killing of villages. Sick...

Agreed that it's sick. But I'm not sure either side really has the support
of the general populace. If something were to occur that would shift the
balance of power between the Islamic radicals and the government, the nuts
behind the revolution could take power. Perhaps we have an Algerian
version of the Great Ghost Dance and the UCAS?

>Right now the economy is under heavy pressure from the influx of new
>immigrants (mostly from Russia). This might also be one of those
>countries which could benefit from a population decrease.

Potentially true in many ways. The Palestinians in their refugee camps and
makeshift cities would probably be hit very hard by the waves of VITAS.

>IIRC King Hussein had his own little problem with the Palestinians.
>They walked around the country like they owned it, and were becoming
>a threat to internal security. Then the King decided enough is enough
>and waged a short but very bloody war on them, almost driving them
>to the brink of extinction. It wouldn't suprise me if a Palestine, if
>it ever came to be, would collapse after a few years and dissolve
>into chaos.

Potentially true. The Palestinians really aren't well liked by any of the
other tribes (the Middle East still does have many tribal conflicts) and
nations. They all just dislike Israel even more.

>I'm more worried about running out of countries I actually know
>something about :).

Bah, we could always fake it!

Erik J.

http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World

From:	Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Sun, 13 Sep 1998 00:19:26 +0000

Message no. 31 and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 9 Sep 98 at 15:23:

> I'm not sure about a "nasty" power struggle, but if a few cardinals
> suddenly are able to toss mana around, that would certainly have a powerful
> effect on church policy. Given how monolithic and slow-moving the Catholic
> Church can be, that might be the *only* way for the church to have adapted
> as quickly as it did.

I do agree with you there, and add that once you start changing an
organization drastically, other changes will be likelier.

> Hah! You know, with my voice as thrashed as it is right now, I can do a
> really cool impersonation of Darth Vader...not quite as deep, but I've got
> the rest!

Remind me never to do what you did, I already can do a good Darth
Vader without thrashing my voice. Gods know how I will sound with a
thrashed voice... Hmm it might get me a film role...

> Oh yeah. Saddam has killed off nearly anyone else that is strong enough to
> rule Iraq. That doesn't bode well for the future.

Yep, forgot about his "crown prince" getting offed a year or two ago
and no-one since took his place. Happy paranoid group of people must
that be.

> Which is totally odd. The Sunni have traditionally been more conservative
> and resistant to change. The Shi'as (Shi'ites) on the other hand have
> traditionally be more apt to change and to adapt. But they've also, in
> that same vein now that I think about it, more apt to accept more radical
> (left and right leaning) interpretations of the Quran. About 90% of
> muslims are of Sunni "persuasion" and around 10% are Shi'a.

You know how it is in the West: Sunnite = moderate; Shi-ite =
fanatic. Probably the story was based on that conception.

> Why would a Shi'a Iran not want to expand if they persecute metahumans and
> condemn magic? I don't understand why not. I'm sure they'd still march on
> in, especially if it can be turned/twisted to a holy war of cleansing.

I was more thinking about the lines of a Tir vs California test.
Magic and Guns vs just Guns doesn't bode to well for the just Gun
camp.

> But that large Palestinian population is *mostly* found still in refugee
> camps. If Jordan wanted to destroy those, it wouldn't be that hard.

He almost did that once, so why not again? Maybe a secret deal with
Israel along the lines of the Molotov pact between Russia and
Germany.

> Agreed that it's sick. But I'm not sure either side really has the support
> of the general populace. If something were to occur that would shift the
> balance of power between the Islamic radicals and the government, the nuts
> behind the revolution could take power. Perhaps we have an Algerian
> version of the Great Ghost Dance and the UCAS?

The problem is that the radicals who won the election have split up
themselves in a few more moderate groups (the majority) and fanatic
splinter groups. The way things are going now the last ones will
never get support to take over the country. I don't say that the
current rulers have that support, but the radicals don't stand a
chance.

> Potentially true in many ways. The Palestinians in their refugee camps and
> makeshift cities would probably be hit very hard by the waves of VITAS.

And maybe a few Libyan missiles went of their course and hit the
West-Bank (or maybe they weren't Libyan. And since the standard
reaction of the Israelis is to close the borders air tight when
something happens and the Palestinians don't have a very good medical
system, you can see where that can lead to.

> Potentially true. The Palestinians really aren't well liked by any of the
> other tribes (the Middle East still does have many tribal conflicts) and
> nations. They all just dislike Israel even more.

That reminds me that in the beginning of the crusades the "Arabs" saw
the Christian invaders just like another tribe. That was actually one
of the reasons why they held out so long. Only after they started
breaking agreements and display other barbarian behaviour however,
there was something of a general movement to get them out.
I think that as long as Israel keeps relatively quiet, it can
eventually become "one of the tribes".

> >I'm more worried about running out of countries I actually know
> >something about :).
> Bah, we could always fake it!

Good point! :)
"And in Politics 2060 today we speak about Bhutan with our esteemed
panel Dr Jameson and Dr Steffens.
Dr Steffens, what is your opinion about how Bhutan will look in
2060?"
[takes his pipe out of his mouth]
"Ah yes, Bhutan, country filled with little Tibetans who dig
secret tunnels everywhere. Can't turn a stone without finding one of
those buggers popping up under them."
[Dr Jameson looks up from his book]
"Ah yes, Tibetans, nasty little buggers. Kill em all I say."
[conversation goes on for ages]

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:30:48 -0400

Message no. 32 At 12:19 AM 9/13/98 +0000, you wrote:

>Remind me never to do what you did, I already can do a good Darth
>Vader without thrashing my voice. Gods know how I will sound with a
>thrashed voice... Hmm it might get me a film role...

Hell, I still don't know what I did. My voice is almost all the way back,
but I still can't do my really bad falsetto voice. I really wish I knew
what I had done.

>> Oh yeah. Saddam has killed off nearly anyone else that is strong enough to
>> rule Iraq. That doesn't bode well for the future.
>
>Yep, forgot about his "crown prince" getting offed a year or two ago
>and no-one since took his place. Happy paranoid group of people must
>that be.

Oh yeah. You've got an enemy to the West, Iran, an enemy to the north,
where most of the Kurds are. A major cult of personality centered around
Saddam. A ruined economy and lots of resentment towards the US and the
world as a whole. Yeah, I actually hope that Saddam lives a long time. He
kicks off today, it gets a whole lot uglier.

>You know how it is in the West: Sunnite = moderate; Shi-ite =
>fanatic. Probably the story was based on that conception.

Yup. Western media misconceptions and racism being handed down to the
general public, by the media, without knowing any better.

>> Why would a Shi'a Iran not want to expand if they persecute metahumans and
>> condemn magic? I don't understand why not. I'm sure they'd still march on
>> in, especially if it can be turned/twisted to a holy war of cleansing.
>
>I was more thinking about the lines of a Tir vs California test.
>Magic and Guns vs just Guns doesn't bode to well for the just Gun
>camp.

Depends who's got the magic then doesn't it? If I recall my SR history,
the Shah of Iran tried to declare a jihad against the Awakened (metas and
magicians) and then a dragon (can't remember the name) smashed Tehran in
retribution. End of jihad.

Which means, if I'm remembering correctly, that Iran won't have magic (not
that Iraq will have much more) and that it'll have it's own troubles to
deal with. They still might do what they can to expand their boundaries.

>> But that large Palestinian population is *mostly* found still in refugee
>> camps. If Jordan wanted to destroy those, it wouldn't be that hard.
>
>He almost did that once, so why not again? Maybe a secret deal with
>Israel along the lines of the Molotov pact between Russia and
>Germany.

Possible, but that would make him REALLY unpopular with his neighbors.
Would make Iraq and Syria a mite ticked.

>> behind the revolution could take power. Perhaps we have an Algerian
>> version of the Great Ghost Dance and the UCAS?
>
>The problem is that the radicals who won the election have split up
>themselves in a few more moderate groups (the majority) and fanatic
>splinter groups. The way things are going now the last ones will
>never get support to take over the country. I don't say that the
>current rulers have that support, but the radicals don't stand a
>chance.

Well...I wouldn't go so far as to say they haven't a chance. A bit of luck
and some well placed terrorism and they *could* take control over a mostly
unwilling populace. Oodles of problems there, but I can see it as a
*possibility.*

>And maybe a few Libyan missiles went of their course and hit the
>West-Bank (or maybe they weren't Libyan. And since the standard
>reaction of the Israelis is to close the borders air tight when
>something happens and the Palestinians don't have a very good medical
>system, you can see where that can lead to.

All possible. I may have to rewrite my guide to the world to eliminate the
Palestinians, or at least reduce them to a small nomadic tribe, having
suffered greatly from the ravages of misplaced missles, VITAS and all the
woes they currently suffer.

>That reminds me that in the beginning of the crusades the "Arabs" saw
>the Christian invaders just like another tribe. That was actually one
>of the reasons why they held out so long. Only after they started
>breaking agreements and display other barbarian behaviour however,
>there was something of a general movement to get them out.
>I think that as long as Israel keeps relatively quiet, it can
>eventually become "one of the tribes".

Possibly true. Unified, the Arab world can be an incredible power,
something truely awful and inspiring to behold. Splintered and broken,
they can't legitimately threaten anyone.

>> Bah, we could always fake it!
>
>Good point! :)
>"And in Politics 2060 today we speak about Bhutan with our esteemed
>panel Dr Jameson and Dr Steffens.
>Dr Steffens, what is your opinion about how Bhutan will look in
>2060?"
>[takes his pipe out of his mouth]
>"Ah yes, Bhutan, country filled with little Tibetans who dig
>secret tunnels everywhere. Can't turn a stone without finding one of
>those buggers popping up under them."
>[Dr Jameson looks up from his book]
>"Ah yes, Tibetans, nasty little buggers. Kill em all I say."
>[conversation goes on for ages]

YES!!!

"Okay, doctors, well, what about Polynesia?"
[Dr. Steffens ponders for moment, a look of deep thought upon his face as
he puffs upon his pipe]
"Well, I'd have to say that they are poised to become a world power. After
all, all their children are genetically engineered to be perfect. The
pre-Awakening film 'Gattaca' was based upon Polynesian practices actually."
[Dr. Jameson looks up from another book]
"Hmmm, yes, they dig secret tunnels too, putting them in league with those
nasty little Tibetans. Kill 'em all, let the archeologists sort it out."
[ad infinitum]

Or something funnier. It's Monday okay?

Erik J.

http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World

From:	K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:08:22 EDT

Message no. 33 In a message dated 9/14/1998 2:32:36 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
erikj@****.COM writes:

> Depends who's got the magic then doesn't it? If I recall my SR history,
> the Shah of Iran tried to declare a jihad against the Awakened (metas and
> magicians) and then a dragon (can't remember the name) smashed Tehran in
> retribution. End of jihad.

Aden, a Sirrush (variant on Eastern) Dracoform of "Great" status...
-K

From:	Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:35:48 +0000

Message no. 34 and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 14 Sep 98 at 15:30:

> Oh yeah. You've got an enemy to the West, Iran, an enemy to the north,
> where most of the Kurds are. A major cult of personality centered around
> Saddam. A ruined economy and lots of resentment towards the US and the
> world as a whole. Yeah, I actually hope that Saddam lives a long time. He
> kicks off today, it gets a whole lot uglier.

Goodbye Iraq for SR purposes I guess..

Quick flashback. I just finished re-reading Burning Bright and it's
surprising what you can find in those novels, plus how many things
suddenly make sense.
Libya got hit by three 100 megaton nukes. Now it has a population of
around 5.4 million which is fairly stable. There are only two cities
worth mentioning: Tripoli and Bengazi (2.6 and 1.1 mil. inh. resp.).
Nuke those and city number three (although it's hardly worth a nuke
at a 150,000) and there's nothing left. I don't know the exact
effects the nukes would have, as in would they wipe out the whole
city, but they are seven times more powerful than the Hiroshima nuke.
So Libya's cities glow in the dark, there's hardly any people left
and there's all those yummie oil fields just across Egypt's border in
the Syrte area (which is relatively unpopulated). "Thank you very
much, we'll take care of those for you from now."

> >You know how it is in the West: Sunnite = moderate; Shi-ite =
> >fanatic. Probably the story was based on that conception.
> Yup. Western media misconceptions and racism being handed down to the
> general public, by the media, without knowing any better.

Yes, it is surprising how western media still views many areas with
a patronizing contempt, just because their culture and customs differ
from ours. Apparently the ideas that the Europeans had when they
colonized the rest of the world are still there in one form or
another.

> Depends who's got the magic then doesn't it? If I recall my SR history,
> the Shah of Iran tried to declare a jihad against the Awakened (metas and
> magicians) and then a dragon (can't remember the name) smashed Tehran in
> retribution. End of jihad.

I forgot about that event. Hmm, two things: Shah = Allahtolya (sp?)
and who the heck rules Iran now, Aden? I can see a more tolerant
attitude after than occurrence, and the adaptation of magic.

> Which means, if I'm remembering correctly, that Iran won't have magic (not
> that Iraq will have much more) and that it'll have it's own troubles to
> deal with. They still might do what they can to expand their boundaries.

Population: Iran 40 mil, Iraq 15 mil. Iran can take a few more blows
than Iraq, that's why they used kids and women to clear mine fields.
Another nail in the coffin of Iraq I guess.

[destroying Palestinian camps]
> Possible, but that would make him REALLY unpopular with his neighbours.
> Would make Iraq and Syria a mite ticked.

That remains to be seen. I did some reading into that relatively
unknown Black Tuesday event, and it seems that most neighbouring
countries didn't comment at all. So I guess that if he keeps the
connection with Israel under a really tight seal, he could pull it
off again.

> Well...I wouldn't go so far as to say they haven't a chance. A bit of luck
> and some well placed terrorism and they *could* take control over a mostly
> unwilling populace. Oodles of problems there, but I can see it as a
> *possibility.*

Okay, theoretically it is a possibility. Far more likely is a more
moderate Islamic party taking over the country after the current
rulers fail to stay in power. A lot of the votes that went to the FIS
in the election of 199-something were dissatisfaction votes. A lot of
people were actually pretty scared at the idea of them getting real
power.

> All possible. I may have to rewrite my guide to the world to eliminate the
> Palestinians, or at least reduce them to a small nomadic tribe, having
> suffered greatly from the ravages of misplaced missles, VITAS and all the
> woes they currently suffer.

Small correction from my side: Israel only locks up the Gaza strip in
case of emergencies, the West Bank is impossible to lock up
because of all the settlements there plus the length of the
border, according to my wife (and she should know being an Israeli).
I just hope that in the future there won't be any angry Palestinians
gunning for our buts, Erik :). You know how some people can get
ticked off at the way FASA treated they country...

> Possibly true. Unified, the Arab world can be an incredible power,
> something truely awful and inspiring to behold. Splintered and broken,
> they can't legitimately threaten anyone.

I like those SF or cyberpunk books were the Arabs did actually become
a mayor power. Can't find any titles right now, but Modesit wrote a
cyberpunkish one and there's a triology somewhere in my bookcases
with an Arab space-travel-SF world.

> "Okay, doctors, well, what about Polynesia?"
> [Dr. Steffens ponders for moment, a look of deep thought upon his face as
> he puffs upon his pipe]
> "Well, I'd have to say that they are poised to become a world power. After
> all, all their children are genetically engineered to be perfect. The
> pre-Awakening film 'Gattaca' was based upon Polynesian practices actually."
> [Dr. Jameson looks up from another book]
> "Hmmm, yes, they dig secret tunnels too, putting them in league with those
> nasty little Tibetans. Kill 'em all, let the archeologists sort it out."
> [ad infinitum]
>
> Or something funnier. It's Monday okay?

This was pretty funny already :).

[Dr Steffens nods]
"Yes, I agree completely. Polynesians means Lots of Nesians. Most
people don't realize how many Nesians there are actually. I see them
as a very dangerous hidden group."
[Dr Jameson]
"Indeed, indeed, there are more Nesians than Chinese. And the worse
thing is they pretend to be a group of seperate nations living on
tropical islands. But few people know that they are inflatable and on
the day of doom according to the ancient Nesian calendar a mightly
continent will rise there and it's people will rule the world."
[Dr Steffens sips some brandy]
"That's why we should nuke them now, while they're still preparing.
And while they are busy glowing in the dark we should torpedo their
underwater bases and sink the whole shebang."
[Both doctors nod and mumble agreements]

Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

From:	Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:39:15 -0500

Message no. 35 From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Date: Tuesday, September 15, 1998 8:34 AM

>Libya got hit by three 100 megaton nukes.

<snip nuking 72% of Libyan population by zapping three major population
centers>

>I don't know the exact
>effects the nukes would have, as in would they wipe out the whole
>city, but they are seven times more powerful than the Hiroshima nuke.

Martin, the bomb dropped on Hiroshima was measured in *kilotons*, not
megatons. I used to have a little DOS program that showed the effects of a
single 20 megaton warhead dropped on NYC, and compared the blast radii of
that and the Hiroshima explosion. It was laughable. Drop 100 megatons on
Tripoli and Tripoli isn't there any more.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:39:56 +0200

Message no. 36 According to Martin Steffens, at 14:35 on 15 Sep 98, the word on the
street was...

> I don't know the exact
> effects the nukes would have, as in would they wipe out the whole
> city, but they are seven times more powerful than the Hiroshima nuke.

One thing that's (too) often forgotten about Hiroshima and Nagasaki is
that those cities were largely made of wood and paper. If you look closely
at the pictures taken there a few months after the nukes were dropped, you
can see the stone, brick, and concrete buildings are still standing
(they're damaged, but they're still upright for the most part). All the
rubble is the remains of much flimsier structures.

Still, a couple of modern strategical nuclear weapons should be enough to
destroy a city, or at least get rid of the population (by both short- and
long-term effects) and infrastructure.

Back to SR: has anyone else noticed the mistake made in Bug City (IIRC)
about the number of nuclear weapons used in anything but tests? The book
claims the nuke on the insect hive in Chicago is the third one used in
anger (Little Boy and Fat Man being the first two, I guess), but as Martin
mentioned, the history of the Sixth World has Israel launching a nuclear
strike at Lybia. Surely they used more than zero weapons for that...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Duck and cover.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
On a wave of mutilation...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Tue, 15 Sep 1998 15:25:00 -0400

Message no. 37 At 02:35 PM 9/15/98 +0000, you wrote:

>Goodbye Iraq for SR purposes I guess..

I think that's a very strong possibility. Who takes what chunks of land
would be in question, but I think realistically speaking, Iraq is in very
real trouble.

>Libya got hit by three 100 megaton nukes. Now it has a population of
>around 5.4 million which is fairly stable. There are only two cities
>worth mentioning: Tripoli and Bengazi (2.6 and 1.1 mil. inh. resp.).
>Nuke those and city number three (although it's hardly worth a nuke
>at a 150,000) and there's nothing left. I don't know the exact
>effects the nukes would have, as in would they wipe out the whole
>city, but they are seven times more powerful than the Hiroshima nuke.

I think they would be more powerful than seven times Hiroshima. Kilotons
versus megatons and all.

But I think Tripoli and Bengazi are essentially nuked into glass and highly
irradiated ruins.

>So Libya's cities glow in the dark, there's hardly any people left
>and there's all those yummie oil fields just across Egypt's border in
>the Syrte area (which is relatively unpopulated). "Thank you very
>much, we'll take care of those for you from now."

Oooh, that's right. Very cool, thanks for the info. Egypt just expanded
westwards!

>Yes, it is surprising how western media still views many areas with
>a patronizing contempt, just because their culture and customs differ
>from ours. Apparently the ideas that the Europeans had when they
>colonized the rest of the world are still there in one form or
>another.

Yes, very much so. You will find here in the states that many folks think
that "Allah" is a different god than the Christian one (it's not) and that
them "Ay-rabs" all wear "towels on their head" and are all terrorists.
Utter and total bullshit, but that's the image too often presented by film,
television and even the news.

>I forgot about that event. Hmm, two things: Shah = Allahtolya (sp?)

No. Shah is a temporal leader. I think I goofed actually; it would have
been the Ayatollah who would have called a jihad. He is a religious leader.

>and who the heck rules Iran now, Aden? I can see a more tolerant
>attitude after than occurrence, and the adaptation of magic.

I don't know; I don't think so. If the country is still the same brand of
Shi'a Islam, I'm not sure how tolerant they would become. Part of the
problem here is that many Iranians are pushing, very quietly mind you, for
moderation and a retreat from the extremism of the 80s. These folks may be
crushed or they may claim power over their nation eventually. Perhaps
after Aden crushes the religious power structure (along with much of
Tehran), the moderates step in with Aden's tacit blessing and Iran becomes
more like what it was with the Shah, a fairly Westernized nation.

>Population: Iran 40 mil, Iraq 15 mil. Iran can take a few more blows
>than Iraq, that's why they used kids and women to clear mine fields.

Ouch, I hope that's not really true. I had not heard that and that's just
horrific.

>Another nail in the coffin of Iraq I guess.

Yup. Bye bye Iraq.

>That remains to be seen. I did some reading into that relatively
>unknown Black Tuesday event, and it seems that most neighbouring
>countries didn't comment at all. So I guess that if he keeps the
>connection with Israel under a really tight seal, he could pull it
>off again.

Potentially, especially if the Palestinians do something stupid, like let
the Intifada folks take charge and replace the PLO. They are bound to piss
off lots of their neighbors then. It's one thing to blow up bombs in
Israel; it's something else entirely to blow one up in your own front lawn.

>Okay, theoretically it is a possibility. Far more likely is a more
>moderate Islamic party taking over the country after the current
>rulers fail to stay in power. A lot of the votes that went to the FIS
>in the election of 199-something were dissatisfaction votes. A lot of
>people were actually pretty scared at the idea of them getting real
>power.

I can buy that. Perhaps the moderates eventually become more radical, I
dunno. Perhaps it becomes a military state where religion is outlawed.
Not sure.

>Small correction from my side: Israel only locks up the Gaza strip in
>case of emergencies, the West Bank is impossible to lock up
>because of all the settlements there plus the length of the
>border, according to my wife (and she should know being an Israeli).

Well, looking at some of the maps, those settlements are fairly
non-contiguous and spread about and have fairly odd borders. Be very hard
to lock down all those settlements. I *think* that they do lock down parts
of the West Bank, at least those that would lead into Jerusalem for
example. I could easily be wrong though.

>I just hope that in the future there won't be any angry Palestinians
>gunning for our butts, Erik :). You know how some people can get
>ticked off at the way FASA treated they country...

Heh. I don't think we need worry. As long as we don't make Palestine a
nation ruled by Immortal Elves that have their own special magical paths, I
think we're okay. ;-)

>I like those SF or cyberpunk books were the Arabs did actually become
>a mayor power. Can't find any titles right now, but Modesit wrote a
>cyberpunkish one and there's a triology somewhere in my bookcases
>with an Arab space-travel-SF world.

I think one of the alternate CP2020 worlds has this, and it's based on some
cyberpunk novel. Problem is, the Arab world is far more diverse than it
was in say, 1100 or 1500. Unification would be very difficult to achieve,
and the only way would be through Islam (as it did before).

>[Dr Steffens nods]
>"Yes, I agree completely. Polynesians means Lots of Nesians. Most
>people don't realize how many Nesians there are actually. I see them
>as a very dangerous hidden group."
>[Dr Jameson]
>"Indeed, indeed, there are more Nesians than Chinese. And the worse
>thing is they pretend to be a group of seperate nations living on
>tropical islands. But few people know that they are inflatable and on
>the day of doom according to the ancient Nesian calendar a mightly
>continent will rise there and it's people will rule the world."
>[Dr Steffens sips some brandy]
>"That's why we should nuke them now, while they're still preparing.
>And while they are busy glowing in the dark we should torpedo their
>underwater bases and sink the whole shebang."
>[Both doctors nod and mumble agreements]

Heh. I think I'll have to pour some brandy myself. I understand, from my
readings of the ancient Nesian calendar that the day of doom is scheduled
for I think next Thursday. Either that or 300 years from next Thursday,
I'm not sure, Nesian math is terribly difficult. I hear it's what killed
Einstein. In either case, I think I'll have some brandy.

Erik J.

Honorary doctor of sociology and political science

From:	K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Tue, 15 Sep 1998 16:09:13 EDT

Message no. 38 In a message dated 9/15/1998 11:51:57 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
remo@***.NET writes:

> >Libya got hit by three 100 megaton nukes.
>
> >I don't know the exact
> >effects the nukes would have, as in would they wipe out the whole
> >city, but they are seven times more powerful than the Hiroshima nuke.
>
> Martin, the bomb dropped on Hiroshima was measured in *kilotons*, not
> megatons. I used to have a little DOS program that showed the effects of a
> single 20 megaton warhead dropped on NYC, and compared the blast radii of
> that and the Hiroshima explosion. It was laughable. Drop 100 megatons on
> Tripoli and Tripoli isn't there any more.
>
Let me see if this can help, and I'm sure Adam G. has more accurate
answers...but 3 100 *megaton* nuclear weapons just sent earth spinning off
it's axis. I know that 500 is a legendary number that would end our world...

-K

From:	Steve Collins <einan@*********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Tue, 15 Sep 1998 18:34:13 -0400

Message no. 39 >In a message dated 9/15/1998 11:51:57 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>remo@***.NET writes:
>
>> >Libya got hit by three 100 megaton nukes.
>>
>> >I don't know the exact
>> >effects the nukes would have, as in would they wipe out the whole
>> >city, but they are seven times more powerful than the Hiroshima nuke.
>>
>> Martin, the bomb dropped on Hiroshima was measured in *kilotons*, not
>> megatons. I used to have a little DOS program that showed the effects of a
>> single 20 megaton warhead dropped on NYC, and compared the blast radii of
>> that and the Hiroshima explosion. It was laughable. Drop 100 megatons on
>> Tripoli and Tripoli isn't there any more.
>>
>Let me see if this can help, and I'm sure Adam G. has more accurate
>answers...but 3 100 *megaton* nuclear weapons just sent earth spinning off
>it's axis. I know that 500 is a legendary number that would end our world...
>
>-K
>

The Earth masses ~ 6 X 10^24 kg
1 Megaton = ~ 1 X 10^14 Joules (energy)

Assume The Earth to be at rest (it cancels out anyway) and that all of
the Energy of the Explosion is turned into Kinetic energy (Not even close
but I don't feel like trying to calculate how much would).
Then
.5 (mass Earth) (Final Velocity Earth)^2 = 1 X 10^16 Joules

Reduces to
(FVE) ^2 = 3 X 10^-9 Meters^2/Seconds^2

Finally (FVE) = 5.5 X 10^-5 Meters/Second

That's on the order of a half a millionth of a Meter per second change in
velocity per 100 megaton blast and even that's hopelessly over done as
probably anly .01% of the total force would be applied as Kinetic Energy
to the Earth with the rest going to Heat, Noise, Radiation, and other
places.

No ammount of Nuclear Weapons are gonna do much to The Earth Now the
things that live here is another matter :). If you wanna Hurt The Earth
then you are gonna have to go to some type of collision with a large
asteroid or other object. IIRC a 100 Megaton blast will kill EVERYTHING!
within 30 Miles of the Blast center instantly and everything else in the
next 20 miles within a few days. Outside of that you might start seeing
somethings start to survive. Thank goodness most nukes are only in the
300 to 500 Kiloton range.

Steve

From:	Michael Coleman <mscoleman@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Wed, 16 Sep 1998 01:35:18 -0500

Message no. 40 > I like those SF or cyberpunk books were the Arabs did actually become
> a mayor power. Can't find any titles right now, but Modesit wrote a
> cyberpunkish one and there's a triology somewhere in my bookcases
> with an Arab space-travel-SF world.
>
>Martin Steffens

I have read most of L E Modesitt's books and I don't recall any with
cyberpunk Arabs. The one that comes to mind from me is George Alec
Effinger's Trilogy, starting with "When Gravity Fails". These have
cyberpunk Arabs in it, though they aren't a major power. These are great
books.

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Wed, 16 Sep 1998 02:49:58 -0700

Message no. 41 >No ammount of Nuclear Weapons are gonna do much to The Earth Now the
>things that live here is another matter :). If you wanna Hurt The Earth
>then you are gonna have to go to some type of collision with a large
>asteroid or other object. IIRC a 100 Megaton blast will kill EVERYTHING!
>within 30 Miles of the Blast center instantly and everything else in the
>next 20 miles within a few days. Outside of that you might start seeing
>somethings start to survive. Thank goodness most nukes are only in the
>300 to 500 Kiloton range.

They're that size because it's the most efficient to kill cities with. Sad
but true: an airburst 250 kiloton blast is sufficient to cause enormous
casualties within a 10 kilometer radius, from thermal pulse and shockwaves.
Ground burst explosions produce more fallout but less casualties.
Megatonnage weapons are actually overkill -- for the same amount of
plutonium and tritium, you can make 10 smaller weapons with equivalent
lethality.

We used to make them to bust Soviet hardened silos but now our CEP
(circular error of probability) is under 100 meters we don't need to do
that anymore. Nothing will survive being that close to a 250 kiloton weapon.

>Steve

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Wed, 16 Sep 1998 08:12:18 -0500

Message no. 42 ----------
> From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
>
> that anymore. Nothing will survive being that close to a 250 kiloton
weapon.

Except, of course, the average Rifts character.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
Is this the real life?
Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide,
No escape from reality.
Open your eyes, Look up to the skies and see,
I'm just a poor boy, I need no sympathy,
Because I'm easy come, easy go, Little high, little low,
Any way the wind blows doesn't really matter to me, to me
-Queen "Bohemian Rhapsody"
*
Heston: 'We Must Arm Ourselves If We Are To Defeat The Apes'

From:	Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:39:10 +0000

Message no. 43 and thus did Michael Coleman speak on 16 Sep 98 at 1:35:

> I have read most of L E Modesitt's books and I don't recall any with
> cyberpunk Arabs. The one that comes to mind from me is George Alec
> Effinger's Trilogy, starting with "When Gravity Fails". These have
> cyberpunk Arabs in it, though they aren't a major power. These are great
> books.

Mea culpa, you're right. The books I was thinking of were written by
Donald Mofitt: Cresent in the Sky and A Gathering of Stars. Not
cyberpunk but more SF.

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

From:	Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:39:10 +0000

Message no. 44 and thus did Gurth speak on 15 Sep 98 at 19:39:

> Still, a couple of modern strategical nuclear weapons should be enough to
> destroy a city, or at least get rid of the population (by both short- and
> long-term effects) and infrastructure.

That's all I wanted to know, thanks anyone for the information. And
it should indeed be 7000 times as powerful.

> Back to SR: has anyone else noticed the mistake made in Bug City (IIRC)
> about the number of nuclear weapons used in anything but tests? The book
> claims the nuke on the insect hive in Chicago is the third one used in
> anger (Little Boy and Fat Man being the first two, I guess), but as Martin
> mentioned, the history of the Sixth World has Israel launching a nuclear
> strike at Lybia. Surely they used more than zero weapons for that...

Maybe they considered the ones used against Japan as one co-ordinated
attack, since they weren't too far apart.

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:14:47 +0200

Message no. 45 According to Martin Steffens, at 16:39 on 16 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> Maybe they considered the ones used against Japan as one co-ordinated
> attack, since they weren't too far apart.

I'm pretty sure it says it's the third nuclear _weapon_, not the third
nuclear _attack_. Then again, IIRC it's in Burning Bright, which isn't my
favorite SR novel by a long way. (I can't say which is my favorite, just
that this one isn't :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
On a wave of mutilation...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Josh Munn <barnack@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Fri, 18 Sep 1998 03:00:58 EDT

Message no. 46 >> I like those SF or cyberpunk books were the Arabs did actually
>>become
>> a mayor power. Can't find any titles right now, but Modesit wrote a
>> cyberpunkish one and there's a triology somewhere in my bookcases
>> with an Arab space-travel-SF world.>>Martin Steffens
>I have read most of L E Modesitt's books and I don't recall any with
>cyberpunk Arabs. The one that comes to mind from me is George Alec
>Effinger's Trilogy, starting with "When Gravity Fails". These have
>cyberpunk Arabs in it, though they aren't a major power. These are
>greatbooks.
In the books "Mote in God's Eye" and its sequel "The Gripping hand" by
Niven and Parnell, The Arabs have a significant power block in the
empire.

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|ˆ 88%%|HHHH|::| >-< |||;%;;8%%=;:::=%8;;;%%%%+|]88
| 88-88%%LL.%.%b::Y_|_Y/%|;;;;'%8%%oo88%;o%.;;;;+|]88
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'q.>b '^^^:::::,'
""^^
Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Fri, 18 Sep 1998 03:10:27 -0400

Message no. 47 > >> I like those SF or cyberpunk books were the Arabs did actually
> >>become
> >> a mayor power. Can't find any titles right now, but Modesit wrote a
> >> cyberpunkish one and there's a triology somewhere in my bookcases
> >> with an Arab space-travel-SF world.>>Martin Steffens
> >I have read most of L E Modesitt's books and I don't recall any with
> >cyberpunk Arabs. The one that comes to mind from me is George Alec
> >Effinger's Trilogy, starting with "When Gravity Fails". These have
> >cyberpunk Arabs in it, though they aren't a major power. These are
> >greatbooks.

Sorry, this is deep enough in replies that I don't know who
to attribute things to. Anyway, I think the Modessit book being referred
to here is 'The Parafaith War'. Not really cyberpunk, but hey.

--Sean

From:	Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject:	Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East (formerly Greece)
Date:	Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:14:33 +0000

Message no. 48 and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 15 Sep 98 at 15:25:

> I think that's a very strong possibility. Who takes what chunks of land
> would be in question, but I think realistically speaking, Iraq is in very
> real trouble.

This could be very interesting to see. Most wanted targets are of
course the oil fields. Now Iraq has two major areas where oil is
found. The first one close to the Kuwaiti border and the second
one around Mosul and Kirkuk. The first one looks like a prime target
for either Iran or the Saudis, Iran being the most likely candidate.
This looks like a prime area for another Gulf War, but without
Western intervention this time. 65% of the people in Iraq are Shi-ite
muslims, like in Iran and are concentrated in this area.

The other one in the north is in the area of your new Kurdistan. I
gave the idea some thought, but to be honest with that much at stake
in the area I don't think anyone is going to allow the Kurds to form
their own nation. In the area that the Kurds claim there are major
oil fields, some of them currently in possession of Turkey and Syria.
The Kurds have now a similar position as the Palestinians; no own
country, spread out over a few other countries, and none of the
rulers around them likes them much. So unless suddenly an Erhani the
Derwish or a Harlequinah appears in the region (which I hope they
don't), fat chance of getting anything for the Kurds, unless someone
gives them a relatively useless piece of rock land with hardly any
resources just to get rid of them.
These oil fields are a nice target for either Syria, Turkey or Iran.
Either of the first two could make a deal with Iran to leave them
alone in the south, if they can have a go at it in the north, which
is likely, since Iran cannot afford a conflict with Turkey and the
Saudis at the same time. That effectively leaves Turkey and Syria to
duke it out in the north. In a war situation Syria can never hope to
hold out against Turkey, and unless they strike a mutual defence pact
with Iran, they don't have any friends in the neighbourhood who could
help them. That leaves Turkey free to grab those fields, unless Syria
does something as sneaky as sign a pact with the Kurds to offer them
their home land in return for support. In that case Kurdistan will be
a Lebanese style controlled state.
I would put my money on Turkey though...

All depends of course on a lot of factors, the most important one
being when Iraq is going to collapse and how. If t happens while
there are still "police men" in the world controlling the region, a
still independent Iraq is likely with an elected government, since
none of the neighbours will feel much like doing anything. If however
it happens after the West is in so much trouble themselves that they
don't care any more, the above scenario could well become true.

> Oooh, that's right. Very cool, thanks for the info. Egypt just expanded
> westwards!

Yep, despite being one of the more restrained countries in the
region, I doubt they will let this pass them by. They could of course
pass it off as taking care of them until the Libyans are ready to
rule their own country again, but effectively those are up for grabs.

> Yes, very much so. You will find here in the states that many folks think
> that "Allah" is a different god than the Christian one (it's not) and that
> them "Ay-rabs" all wear "towels on their head" and are all
terrorists.
> Utter and total bullshit, but that's the image too often presented by film,
> television and even the news.

That reminds me that most people also seem to have trouble
distinguishing between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
Also they seem to think that N.I. is a warzone. When I was still
working in the IBM call centre in Dublin there was this story about
an American customer. He called us when there was still a lot of
construction going on, but he thought that those sounds were gun fire
and explosions and said something along the lines of "There's a lot
of shooting going on there, isn't there? Aren't you afraid?". To
which the call taker, being Irish and having a nasty sense of humour
replied: "Not really sir, happens all the time. We're relatively safe
hiding under the tables."

> >I forgot about that event. Hmm, two things: Shah = Allahtolya (sp?)

> No. Shah is a temporal leader. I think I goofed actually; it would have
> been the Ayatollah who would have called a jihad. He is a religious leader.

That's what I meant, I was suprised at the word and thought that FASA
put a Shah back, but discovered that it still was an Ayatollah.

> I don't know; I don't think so. If the country is still the same brand of
> Shi'a Islam, I'm not sure how tolerant they would become. Part of the
> problem here is that many Iranians are pushing, very quietly mind you, for
> moderation and a retreat from the extremism of the 80s. These folks may be
> crushed or they may claim power over their nation eventually. Perhaps
> after Aden crushes the religious power structure (along with much of
> Tehran), the moderates step in with Aden's tacit blessing and Iran becomes
> more like what it was with the Shah, a fairly Westernized nation.

Likely, plus if they don't, the dragon can always come back for a
second run.

> >Population: Iran 40 mil, Iraq 15 mil. Iran can take a few more blows
> >than Iraq, that's why they used kids and women to clear mine fields.
>
> Ouch, I hope that's not really true. I had not heard that and that's just
> horrific.

It's true, I'm afraid. The numbers were wrong though it should be 65
and 20 mil.

> Potentially, especially if the Palestinians do something stupid, like let
> the Intifada folks take charge and replace the PLO. They are bound to piss
> off lots of their neighbors then. It's one thing to blow up bombs in
> Israel; it's something else entirely to blow one up in your own front lawn.

That brings up another thing, the PLO exists thanks to Arafat. Even
his enemies within the party agree that if they kill him there won't
be anyone that could take his place. So who knows who will take over.

> Well, looking at some of the maps, those settlements are fairly
> non-contiguous and spread about and have fairly odd borders. Be very hard
> to lock down all those settlements. I *think* that they do lock down parts
> of the West Bank, at least those that would lead into Jerusalem for
> example. I could easily be wrong though.

Well that's the exception to the rule. East Jerusalem (the
Palestinian part) is locked off fairly often and not too hard to lock
either. In other places they just increase border security and car
searches. And trust me those military guys are nervous like hell. I
once ended up in the Muslim part of the old city (it's suprisingly
easy to get lost there) and saw a patrol walking through these narrow
streets. They were so nervous that I didn't dare to ask them the way
back.

> Heh. I don't think we need worry. As long as we don't make Palestine a
> nation ruled by Immortal Elves that have their own special magical paths, I
> think we're okay. ;-)

Arafat being an IE... ?! Woah that would be one ugly elf :) It would
explain why he's wearing that fedorah all the time...hmmm

> Heh. I think I'll have to pour some brandy myself. I understand, from my
> readings of the ancient Nesian calendar that the day of doom is scheduled
> for I think next Thursday. Either that or 300 years from next Thursday,
> I'm not sure, Nesian math is terribly difficult. I hear it's what killed
> Einstein. In either case, I think I'll have some brandy.

The math is easy enough if you have a few bottles in you :). The date
is 6-6-2060 (there, you wanted a prophesy in that time, viola!)
*hickup*.

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

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