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Message no. 1
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: A WildCat, A Navy SEAL, and A Tir Mage go into a bar...
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:00:17 -0400
Topcat,
I've grown REALLY tired of trying to reply to all this
misinterpreted, poorly argued diatribes about whoses way of GMing is
right. Your players must enjoy the way you do things, otherwise you
wouldn't have any, and my players must be deriving a little satisfaction
from my efforts. This thread has already taken FAR too much time from my
gamers, when I could have been posting turns, or getting ready for the
weekend session with my 'live' gamers. So, think what you want to think,
and say what you want to say about my style. I'm not going to change
your mind by beating you over the head with my manifesto, and vice versa
[a case of your karma ran over my dogma!]. Just don't go insulting my
players. Stick to what you know about, don't go making snap judgements
about people you've never had contact with in a gaming context.
I'm DEFINITELY Audi!

Kohl
Message no. 2
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: A WildCat, a Navy SEAL, and a Tir mage go into a bar...
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:29:17 -0500
At 09:44 AM 7/18/97 -0400, Victor wrote:
>First off, TopCat, The SEALS work for the UCAS, NOT CAS!

Actually, if you read through SR2 (which one would hope you might've) you'd
know that SEALs could be of either UCAS or CAS. When the US split, military
forces went to their respective countries based on their own personal
loyalties. Now if you knew where they train at you'd know that they'd be in
the CAS if that had anything to do with it, but since SR2 states that the
military split along personal loyaties, I'll let you slide there. Besides,
in the SC they mention a CAS SEAL character. They could be either, but they
are not exclusively UCAS. Wrong again...

> Second, as
>anyone whose actually been in the military can tell you, the prime
>reason for these two disparate peoples for working together comes down
>to one word...PROFESSIONALISM!

Surprise! I've been in the military...

As for professionalism, how about all the ingrained anti-Indian sentiment in
every former UCAS/CAS military member? They just forget that at retirement
as they fall into a plot hole? How about all the anti-elf sentiment
worldwide? I'm sure the plot hole covers that over just fine as well.
Sure, professionalism is appreciated, but where it's coming from is just as,
if not more so, important. Think like a real person for a moment...

> A spec forces commando, if the objectives or opposition were the
>same, these two people would MUCH rather work together than with a bunch
>of disorganized, improperly (if at all) trained, UNPROFESSIONAL
>Shadowrunners [Yes, I know that there are many Sr groups that don't fit
>this mold, but the military mentality, even a really loose one like
>mine, tends to gravitate towards order of regimentation, as opposed to
>the chaotic decisionmaking evidenced by your typical 'amateur' Shadowrun
>team.].

Of course anyone would rather work with a "professional" group, but one
doesn't have to be ex-military to be professional. I know more
unprofessional military people than professional, btw. Anywhere that rank
and time in service mean more than actual knowledge and ability is an
unprofessional place. Perhaps you mean "skilled at small unit tactics" or
"wears black, has fired a gun before, and can sneak". Is that what you
mean? Some people define professional as wearing a suit and tie to work.
It's a very vague term and rarely applies to those that would use it
frivolously. If it's attitude you're talking about, then the military is
the last place to look for professionalism. They're just

> If the Tir mage is also a former spook, works just as well. Not all
>spec forces teams love and share a 'warm, fuzzy feeling' for each other,
>BUT most are professional enough to work together to get the job done.

LOL! You got a choice between working with a group of people that you've
known for a long time (fellow ex-SEALs, let's say) and working with a guy
who you don't know, is sure he knows the best way to do things (and it isn't
your way, it's some damned fluffy elf way), and you're going to choose the
latter because you're pretty sure he's "professional"? You think the elf is
going to take orders from you when he knows the right way? You think the
Wildcat is going to listen to either of you? And let's not forget that
since the moment all of them were born, they were taught that the others are
"bad". Realistically, there's too much bad blood there.

Take two fire teams with members of equal rank. One team comes from Israel,
the other from Iran. How well are these two groups going to get along?
Realism, it stares us in the face every day...

>And who knows, after working with their opposite numbers for awhile,
>they may just develop a grudging respect for one another. This would go
>a long way to laying down more lasting links between the trio, than to
>simply lump them all together as types that should get along and say,
>you're a team.

Which is exactly what you're doing, lumping them together under the banner
of "professionalism" (without really knowing what the term means) and then
applying the BS patch "have worked together, now possess grudging respect".
That smells, Vic. Bad.

> Military, and spec forces in particular, are trained in a certain
>discipline that most amateur shadowrunners have no wish to emulate.
>[Look at Argent from Nigel Findley's books. He ran a team of
>Shadowrunners that was almost totally composed of ex-military, and they
>functioned like a well oiled machine. I'd say more, but then I'd need
>spoilers :-].

If you truly were a member of the armed forces, Vic, you'd know that easily
90% or more of the people in there have no idea what professionalism is...
those that do are often squashed by the boot of rank and service time...

I do, indeed, know of Argent. I also know that many of the shadowrunners in
the books run very similar. Argent is just equipped better and has some
1000+ karma to play with and a full team of mercenaries of his caliber that
he runs with. Of course he's going to be successful, some countries don't
have that kind of firepower, he's a powergamer's wet dream.

> You seem to think that anyone who can come up with a interesting
>and CONVINCING storyline, OTHER than you, why these three should hang
>together is full of BS! Now, if THAT isn't full of hubris, and a good
>helping Mad Cow Kaka, I don't know what is!

There is no such thing as a realistic storyline that'll patch those three
together. You can BS patch 'em endlessly, but it'll always be BS and it'll
stink forever. I'm a talented writer and I could BS patch them together
just like anyone here probably could, but it'd be BS. Get it?

> As a GM, you're supposed to
>HELP the players find a reason to stick together. It's hard, and it
>doesn't always work out, but that doesn't mean you aren't supposed to
>try. And don't give me the reason that you don't have the time. I'm
>pretty sure I'm a GOOD deal older than you are, and if anyone doesn't
>have time to waste on foolishness, it's me.

As a GM, you're supposed to run a campaign. It's up to the characters how
they react to each other. I don't tell characters how they met or why they
stay together or what they'll be doing for their next run. I just shape
where they want to go and how they want to work. You're sounding awfully
"fascist" here, Vic... what with forcing the players together and all...

> Only a civilian would make an assumption like that these three
>would have no reason to stick together as BS! [And NO, I'm NOT bashing
>civilians; I'm one right now, and enjoy it quite fine, thank you!] I
>suggest you take a look at the Shadowrun Military Page, and talk to a
>few of those guys over there, so's you get a better idea what you're
>meandering about.

Heh. I was military, Vic. My father was also in the military. I've seen
the great military machine in motion. Professional it isn't. I'll gladly
debate this with anyone, complete with numerous facts, should they really
wish to get into such a conversation with me. One can assume that the
military is run the best way possible by the best people possible at all
times and that everyone gets along and that everyone works together and that
everyone is happy and that nobody ever violates another person's rights or
dislikes/distrusts/despises/attacks them because of race, religion, or sex,
but it doesn't work that way. You'd have to be extremely naive to believe that.

>Or, maybe I'm totally wrong, and they'll vindicate you. Who knows...

Depends on their viewpoint. If it's comic-bookish in nature and doesn't
take into account decades of nationalism and racism, then they'll probably
disagree with me. If they look at the wide-view, the view that hasn't been
polished over by propaganda and swept under the carpet, then they'll
probably agree with me.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 3
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: A WildCat, a Navy SEAL, and a Tir mage go into a bar...
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:17:40 -0600
Quoth TopCat:
>
> At 09:44 AM 7/18/97 -0400, Victor wrote:
>
> > If the Tir mage is also a former spook, works just as well. Not all
> >spec forces teams love and share a 'warm, fuzzy feeling' for each other,
> >BUT most are professional enough to work together to get the job done.
>
> LOL! You got a choice between working with a group of people that you've
> known for a long time (fellow ex-SEALs, let's say) and working with a guy
> who you don't know, is sure he knows the best way to do things (and it isn't
> your way, it's some damned fluffy elf way), and you're going to choose the
> latter because you're pretty sure he's "professional"? You think the elf
is
> going to take orders from you when he knows the right way? You think the
> Wildcat is going to listen to either of you? And let's not forget that
> since the moment all of them were born, they were taught that the others are
> "bad". Realistically, there's too much bad blood there.
>
> Take two fire teams with members of equal rank. One team comes from Israel,
> the other from Iran. How well are these two groups going to get along?
> Realism, it stares us in the face every day...

The phrase you're looking for here is "inter-service rivalry". It happens
everywhere, not just in the military. Not only do people in the Army
make fun of the Army Air Corps (US Air Force - see US History), but it
happens in police forces as well. The local police dept doesn't want
the FBI nosing in on it's case, for example.

> >And who knows, after working with their opposite numbers for awhile,
> >they may just develop a grudging respect for one another. This would go
> >a long way to laying down more lasting links between the trio, than to
> >simply lump them all together as types that should get along and say,
> >you're a team.
>
> Which is exactly what you're doing, lumping them together under the banner
> of "professionalism" (without really knowing what the term means) and then
> applying the BS patch "have worked together, now possess grudging respect".
> That smells, Vic. Bad.

I agree. Just because two people are profesional does not mean that they
will ignore any differences or personal feelings when they need to get
something done together. My itty-bitty Websters defines "professional"
as "referring to a profession; expert" and "professionalism" as
"expertise/skill". We always tend to attach more traits to these words
than the definitions have. Professionalism has always been a sore point
with me and some of my friends when it comes to playing SR in certain
scenarios.

> > Military, and spec forces in particular, are trained in a certain
> >discipline that most amateur shadowrunners have no wish to emulate.
> >[Look at Argent from Nigel Findley's books. He ran a team of
> >Shadowrunners that was almost totally composed of ex-military, and they
> >functioned like a well oiled machine. I'd say more, but then I'd need
> >spoilers :-].
>
> If you truly were a member of the armed forces, Vic, you'd know that easily
> 90% or more of the people in there have no idea what professionalism is...
> those that do are often squashed by the boot of rank and service time...

:) True. Very few of the higher ranking officers and NCO's are actually
worthy of the praise some people seem to think they deserve. Heck, I thought
that the Army was doing pretty good, with regards all of these sex scandals
popping up, until the SMA got pointed at a couple weeks ago. Very few
people in the military are actually worthy of the title "professional". Ever
heard of the phrase "F*ck up, move up"?

> > Only a civilian would make an assumption like that these three
> >would have no reason to stick together as BS! [And NO, I'm NOT bashing
> >civilians; I'm one right now, and enjoy it quite fine, thank you!] I
> >suggest you take a look at the Shadowrun Military Page, and talk to a
> >few of those guys over there, so's you get a better idea what you're
> >meandering about.

Even expert military folks will respect a civilian who shows expertise
in their field. Just because they aren't in the same service doesn't mean
that they won't work with each other. But, there is a certain level of
responsibility, and the way that a person acts, that people in any service
expect from professionals in that service. If any of the expected actions
are not taen that that person drops a few notches in the observers view.

> Heh. I was military, Vic. My father was also in the military. I've seen
> the great military machine in motion. Professional it isn't. I'll gladly
> debate this with anyone, complete with numerous facts, should they really
> wish to get into such a conversation with me. One can assume that the
> military is run the best way possible by the best people possible at all
> times and that everyone gets along and that everyone works together and that
> everyone is happy and that nobody ever violates another person's rights or
> dislikes/distrusts/despises/attacks them because of race, religion, or sex,
> but it doesn't work that way. You'd have to be extremely naive to believe that.

One example to prove topcat's point: my tank platoon in Germany received a
shiny new 2LT, straight out of the Air Force Academy! How did this happen?
We never found out. You thought Army trained officers couldn't read maps?
The first thing this guy did was lead us across a couple of farmers fields
near the Hof border causing about DM250,000 worth of damage because
he couldn't read the road signs. Then, on the same border mission, he
proceeded to direct his tank into taking 9 feet of siding off of the
side of a house that was pretty close to the road. This does not fit
the definition of professional. There was no way we wanted anything to
do with this guy.

--
|
Mike Loseke | You never know how fluffy poodles are,
mike@*******.com | until you step in one.
|
Message no. 4
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: A WildCat, a Navy SEAL, and a Tir mage go into a bar...
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:19:53 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-18 14:52:30 EDT, Victor-Fisher@******.COM (Fisher,
Victor) writes:

<<< !!! Warning Fire-fighting Samurai have Entered the Building !!!
>>>

> (and yes, anyone can
> come up with some BS story that'll link 'em, but BS by anyother name
> still stinks.'

A geez, here it comes...

> To which Kohl replys:
> First off, TopCat, The SEALS work for the UCAS, NOT CAS! Second, as
> anyone whose actually been in the military can tell you, the prime
> reason for these two disparate peoples for working together comes down
> to one word...PROFESSIONALISM!

Excuse me, pardon me, first interupt. Game World Gentleman, both nations
have variations on the theme...

> A spec forces commando, if the objectives or opposition were the
> same, these two people would MUCH rather work together than with a bunch
> of disorganized, improperly (if at all) trained, UNPROFESSIONAL
> Shadowrunners [Yes, I know that there are many Sr groups that don't fit
> this mold, but the military mentality, even a really loose one like
> mine, tends to gravitate towards order of regimentation, as opposed to
> the chaotic decisionmaking evidenced by your typical 'amateur' Shadowrun
> team.].

Hey, working on the fly is required in many, if not most, decision made
plans. Be careful of the word amateur. Mice or Man, does it matter what the
game plan dives?

> If the Tir mage is also a former spook, works just as well. Not all
> spec forces teams love and share a 'warm, fuzzy feeling' for each other,
> BUT most are professional enough to work together to get the job done.
> And who knows, after working with their opposite numbers for awhile,
> they may just develop a grudging respect for one another. This would go
> a long way to laying down more lasting links between the trio, than to
> simply lump them all together as types that should get along and say,
> you're a team.
> Military, and spec forces in particular, are trained in a certain
> discipline that most amateur shadowrunners have no wish to emulate.
> [Look at Argent from Nigel Findley's books. He ran a team of
> Shadowrunners that was almost totally composed of ex-military, and they
> functioned like a well oiled machine. I'd say more, but then I'd need
> spoilers :-].

No, actually you wouldn't. Argent and his team, especially Peg (the decker?)
have a structure that most real game groups can't hope to emulate. It's
called total author override or GM Control Mode. A single GM can create an
awesomely well oiled machine, but a group of nutty cased runners by players
(be they any level of power or munchkinism) can destroy the machinations of
all.

> You seem to think that anyone who can come up with a interesting
> and CONVINCING storyline, OTHER than you, why these three should hang
> together is full of BS! Now, if THAT isn't full of hubris, and a good
> helping Mad Cow Kaka, I don't know what is! As a GM, you're supposed to
> HELP the players find a reason to stick together. It's hard, and it
> doesn't always work out, but that doesn't mean you aren't supposed to
> try. And don't give me the reason that you don't have the time. I'm
> pretty sure I'm a GOOD deal older than you are, and if anyone doesn't
> have time to waste on foolishness, it's me.

Okay, just what are the roles of the GM then? Guy, it must be me, because of
the last 4 major subjects that -I- have brought up, the two of you have jibed
or worse at each other.

> Only a civilian would make an assumption like that these three
> would have no reason to stick together as BS! [And NO, I'm NOT bashing
> civilians; I'm one right now, and enjoy it quite fine, thank you!] I
> suggest you take a look at the Shadowrun Military Page, and talk to a
> few of those guys over there, so's you get a better idea what you're
> meandering about.

On that topic, could I and the rest of the mail group have that address?

> Or, maybe I'm totally wrong, and they'll vindicate you. Who
> knows...
>
Vindication is sign of the totally out of control. Jurisdiction is the
boundary of the Legally Vindicated.
-Keith
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: A WildCat, a Navy SEAL, and a Tir mage go into a bar...
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:58:48 +0100
TopCat said on 12:29/18 Jul 97...

> Actually, if you read through SR2 (which one would hope you might've) you'd
> know that SEALs could be of either UCAS or CAS. When the US split, military
> forces went to their respective countries based on their own personal
> loyalties. Now if you knew where they train at you'd know that they'd be in
> the CAS if that had anything to do with it

I imagine the UCAS would quickly set up a training facility somewhere
else, if they feel this is a unit worth keeping (which they obviously
did).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
All these worthless nights, all these wasted days
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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