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Message no. 1
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Aztechnology & "the Enemy" (OnT drift compensation)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 22:08:40 EST
In a message dated 1/9/99 5:58:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
leisnj48@****.CIS.UWOSH.EDU writes:

>
> My point was that Aztechnology has taken what they want from the Aztech
> culture (human sacrifice and priests rule all) and either perverted or
> ditched the rest. I was hoping that someone saw something that would maybe
> make Aztechnology not such bad perverters of a beautiful culture.

Okay, I'll grant you all that you say. And I'll give you something that may
even give you a "Ray of Hope".

Within the structures of the Aztec, Mayan, Toltec (and yes Steve, even the
Olmec since you've done your homework :-) cultures there are advances in
anatomy (not necessarily anatomical science), astronomy, astrogation (yes, you
read this correctly), culture, language, social definition (I won't use the
term "reform" here) and so much more.

Aztechnology is, for lack of better terms, "the Bad Guys" of the SR Universe.
They are the one force in existence that seems to defy everyone that is. This
includes the IE groups (read the books, you'll see who they are the most
paranoid of second to possibly only Lofwyr), Lofwyr (who makes comments during
the ZO conversations in a few books about the "Aztech" representative simply
doing what they will, and even Dunkelzahn (who seemed hellishly bent on trying
to get Aztlan/Aztechnology out from beneath the shadow of "Oscuro"). Hell,
even the Harlequin's Back adventure collection presses this little bit to an
extent.

You see, of all the major *ancient* cultures of our world, the "Central/North
Plateau Americas" were the most diversified and yet most centralized to be
found. Yes, other major cultures and centralizations of the past (such as the
Chinese and Egyptians for example) had massive cultures and equally massive
developments. But, of all of them, the concept of "Magic" was so integrally
placed within their structure.

Oh sure, I'm going to have many disagreements here, and yes I will even
concede some areas of concentration. But not on an overall. Every
develomental "phase" that the peoples of the Central/NP Americas went through
pulled a complete integration of those they "engulfed." And in so doing, they
managed to not even lose the cultural diversities (leaving the Mayan
exceptions of the south-central Yucatan out of this myself). Even the
Egyptians failed in this regard, as at least two major changes in their
"dynasty's" fell prey to singular developmental near-extinctions (Martin, you
and I discussed this concerning Ahkenahten (sp?) for example).

Of all the major Central/NP American peoples, only the Incans (and their
predecessors) seem to have matched the Mayan/Olmec developments, and even that
becomes speculatory, as the Incans left behind far fewer remnants of their
massive system (excluding their roadways, which are still in use today much
like the Roman systems are).

What I guess I am saying is that "Aztechnology" is in truth, not fully beneath
the heel of "Oscuro" and his "Associates". It may take some time, but
it is
very capable of being a situation where "Azatlan" could be brought back into
the forefront of developmental possibilities.

<rant on>

It is part of the reason that I am disheartened by the break(s) in
communication concerning project deadlines of the Corporate Download
sourcebook. I do NOT know who got the Aztechnology chance, but I seriously
hope that s/he was allowed to take advantage of this one, very major, fact (as
established within the SR Universe). Oh yeah, everyone will sit there and say
"but if Oscuro is killed in Harlequin's Back, he'll be replaced!!!" That was
previously correct. However, I do NOT believe this to be true or feasible any
longer personally. With the events of "the Dragonheart Trilogy", even if
Oscuro does succeed in remaining alive, there is NO way he is going to be a
magical match for the draconic and coatl advances that are going to be
literally *waiting* for the opportunity to snatch (back) all that power that
is literally waiting down there.

Personally, I think I did cheer out loud when Oscuro (hint: Darke) was
effectively rendered "impotent/dead" (you take your pick) by the events of the
DH trilogy.

Sorry folks, Azatlan (Mexico) is/was one of my personal pet projects....

<rant off>

In short, I believe that Aztechnology could and *should* be rewritten. Let
the "Wyrm" be the villain for once or something, he'd be better at it anyway.

-K
Message no. 2
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Aztechnology & "the Enemy" (OnT drift compensation)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:46:41 +0000
and thus did K in the Shadows speak on 9 Jan 99 at 22:08:

> In a message dated 1/9/99 5:58:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> leisnj48@****.CIS.UWOSH.EDU writes:
>
> >
> > My point was that Aztechnology has taken what they want from the Aztech
> > culture (human sacrifice and priests rule all) and either perverted or
> > ditched the rest. I was hoping that someone saw something that would maybe
> > make Aztechnology not such bad perverters of a beautiful culture.

> Aztechnology is, for lack of better terms, "the Bad Guys" of the SR
> Universe. They are the one force in existence that seems to defy
> everyone that is. This includes the IE groups (read the books,
> you'll see who they are the most paranoid of second to possibly only
> Lofwyr), Lofwyr (who makes comments during the ZO conversations in a
> few books about the "Aztech" representative simply doing what they
> will, and even Dunkelzahn (who seemed hellishly bent on trying to
> get Aztlan/Aztechnology out from beneath the shadow of "Oscuro").
> Hell, even the Harlequin's Back adventure collection presses this
> little bit to an extent.

I must admit I did lose you from time to time in what exactly you
meant, so if I misinterpret you, please forgive me.
From what I know (and this is not extensive I must admit) of the
Aztecs they were a culture very much geared towards warfare, and the
attitude towards dead was very similar to that of the Samurai. Almost
everyone had to serve in the armed forces and the glorification
of warfare combat was present throughout all forms of culture.
Furthermore the the most common way to rise in rank and distinguish
yourself was in combat by taking prisoners (kids could call
themselves adults once they captured someone in combat). It's very
clearly to see that this habit alone would perpetuate an almost
constant state of war with anyone around them, apart from the fact
that in order to become a successful king you also had to have a
series of suitable impressive won battles on your name. Nothing
seriously wrong so far, except that this simply cannot work forever,
you either run out of enemies, or overextend yourself and the empire
collapses.
The cute bits start here:
The poor POW's were marched up to the temples, received
open heart surgery, were kicked down the stairs, and then chopped up
and eaten by the capturing warrior's family. Special holidays
involved, you guessed, more sacrifices. Kids, slaves, and of course a
whole load of animals. To atone for a crime/offence the offender wore
the skin of a sacrificial victim for a whole month. Ritual self
mutilation, bloodletting, pain, most of the Aztec culture was
centralized around the concept of sacrify and combat. Now they
might have had astounding abilities in every other field, but it was
hardly a healthy stable culture. Even without the Spanish it would
have not lasted for much longer, you can only rule that long by fear.
It was not for nothing that so many of the conquered tribes were very
willing to help out the Spanish. So, yes, I can see why they choose
Aztlan as a place for Darke and his buddies.

> You see, of all the major *ancient* cultures of our world, the
> "Central/North Plateau Americas" were the most diversified and yet
> most centralized to be found. Yes, other major cultures and
> centralizations of the past (such as the Chinese and Egyptians for
> example) had massive cultures and equally massive developments.
> But, of all of them, the concept of "Magic" was so integrally placed
> within their structure.

I don't see what you are trying to say with that last sentence (I
don't understand it that is). As for the first bit, I can only see
that apply to the Incas (and possibly the Olmecs and anything around
before 1500 BC. which I don't have much info about). The other
cultures had their total collapses, stagnation of cultural
development, and changes in culture. From what I know more so than
the Egyptians (at least in it's core period of rule) and Chinese. The
Aztecs weren't around very long to begin with, and took most of their
culture from their predecessors/conquered cities.

> Oh sure, I'm going to have many disagreements here, and yes I will
> even concede some areas of concentration. But not on an overall.
> Every develomental "phase" that the peoples of the Central/NP
> Americas went through pulled a complete integration of those they
> "engulfed." And in so doing, they managed to not even lose the
> cultural diversities (leaving the Mayan exceptions of the
> south-central Yucatan out of this myself). Even the Egyptians
> failed in this regard, as at least two major changes in their
> "dynasty's" fell prey to singular developmental near-extinctions
> (Martin, you and I discussed this concerning Ahkenahten (sp?) for
> example).

Actually Akhenaten (or however you want to spell his name) could be
seen as a mayor innovator, trying to revive a stagnant culture, and
reorganizing a overcomplicated religious system (with a likewise too
powerful clergy). To bad he failed in some extend. I can see however
many occasions in S.A./ M.A. cultures were a similar stagnation
period appears for far longer periods, specially in the ones that
revolve around the glorification of war and extensive human
sacrifies.

> What I guess I am saying is that "Aztechnology" is in truth, not
> fully beneath the heel of "Oscuro" and his "Associates". It may
> take some time, but it is very capable of being a situation where
> "Azatlan" could be brought back into the forefront of developmental
> possibilities.

I agree with that. I doubt fully that there is enough Aztec culture
left amongst the people to recreate the Aztlan empire, religion and
culture. It would be on roughly the same scale as having the Italians
recreate the Roman empire. Plus I doubt sincerely that many people
would stand for a return to sacrifying (meta)-humans.

> In short, I believe that Aztechnology could and *should* be
> rewritten. Let the "Wyrm" be the villain for once or something,
> he'd be better at it anyway.

Like I said before: Evil is in the eye of the beholder. I that this
black and white, evil and good stuff is better off in a "pure"
fantasy setting, not in a realistic worldview.

Leave the Wyrm alone, btw, he's my favourite guy ;) (as long as I
control him as a GM that is...)


Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 3
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Aztechnology & "the Enemy" (OnT drift compensation)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:27:22 EST
In a message dated 1/10/99 5:49:39 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
chimerae@***.IE writes:

>
> Leave the Wyrm alone, btw, he's my favourite guy ;) (as long as I
> control him as a GM that is...)
NO! NO! DOWN WITH THE WYRM!!! MAY HIS SCALES GLISTEN...<chop>

<sounds of strange, forgotten, warriors lopping off heads as they trample
through 20+ inches of snow, leading a trailing of bloody...(you fill in the
rest)>

-K

PS : Steve K. has mentioned Lofwyr recently...ask him ... <ewg>)
Message no. 4
From: Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Aztechnology & "the Enemy" (OnT drift compensation)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:27:11 -0500
On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, K in the Shadows wrote:

> In short, I believe that Aztechnology could and *should* be rewritten. Let
> the "Wyrm" be the villain for once or something, he'd be better at it
anyway.
>
Personally I prefer no villians, just entities working at cross purposes.
Makes it much more confusing as a plot where two sides come into conflict
and they are both right.

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.
Message no. 5
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Aztechnology & "the Enemy" (OnT drift compensation)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:38:12 +1000
Drew Curtis writes:
> Personally I prefer no villians, just entities working at cross purposes.
> Makes it much more confusing as a plot where two sides come into conflict
> and they are both right.

Ditto. To paraphrase David Eddings, I don't like good and evil. Us and them
is much easier. It lets you clear away all the excess garbage and get right
down to cases.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 6
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Aztechnology & "the Enemy" (OnT drift compensation)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:26:27 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Robert Watkins wrote:
/
/ Drew Curtis writes:
/ > Personally I prefer no villians, just entities working at cross purposes.
/ > Makes it much more confusing as a plot where two sides come into conflict
/ > and they are both right.
/
/ Ditto. To paraphrase David Eddings, I don't like good and evil. Us and them
/ is much easier. It lets you clear away all the excess garbage and get right
/ down to cases.

The difference between an opponent and a villian is that a villian is
an opponent with odious personal habits.

:)

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

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