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Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Barrier + balistic armor
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:03:41 -0700
Brett Borger wrote:
/
/ > Fourth, if some mage has an armor jacket, and has cast a bullet
/ > barrier force 6 for an ballistic armor rating of 11. Someone shoots
/ > at him with a Predator (9M). What happens? The bullet barrier says
/ > that a gun with a lower power then the spell does no damage, but the
/ > armor rating is combined with the spell force, so... I'm at a bit of
/ > a loss here, so any help is greatly appreciated.
/
/ Normally I wouldn't allow such a combo to deflect the bullet
/ automatically. But, since the spell description states that it would
/ add directly to the armor (or rather the other way around) I would
/ say the bullets deflect off and the mage needs no damage resistance
/ test.

I'd rule the other way.

A bullet barrier acts somewhat like hardened armor, IMO. Ergo the
rule about the power of an attack needing to be greater than the
barrier's rating.

The mage's jacket isn't hardened armor.

So, if the power exceeds the barrier's rating, I'd make the mage roll
a damage resistance test. In this case his target number would be a
2 so the chances of him actually taking damage are slim. But I'd
still make him do it.

-David
--
"By the way, this may look like a slab of liver
but it's an external brain pack."
- Ratbert
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 2
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Barrier + balistic armor
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:14:03 EST
> I'd rule the other way.
> The mage's jacket isn't hardened armor.
>
> So, if the power exceeds the barrier's rating, I'd make the mage
> roll a damage resistance test. In this case his target number would
> be a 2 so the chances of him actually taking damage are slim. But
> I'd still make him do it.

Actually, the odds of the mage taking damage are pretty good.
Assuming the shooter made only one success, resisting 2M still
requires 4 successes (5 acutally, since I think second edition uses
net successes to determine damage changes).

What percentage of mages have bodies of 4? (or 5). And this is
assuming they roll no 1's. While I don't expect them to roll many,
out of 4 dice the odds are pretty good of getting one 1. So to be
safe, we can say that on average, the mage needs a body of 6 to take
no damage, and then only if the attacker made only one success on the
to-hit test.

Doesn't sound too common to me.

Maybe I'm just ranting, but it has always been a major beef with me
that magic DOESN'T have a possibility to render mages invulnerable to
bullets (which doesn't bother me except that all their fiction has it
as standard)

Heck, even Immunity to Normal weapons renders "most" spirits quite
vulnerable to a sammy with a decent willpower and an SMG. In my
campaigns I revised Immunity to be REAL immunity, as opposed to a
small level of armor.

End Rant.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 3
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Barrier + balistic armor
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:57:10 -0500
On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Brett Borger wrote:

> > I'd rule the other way.
> > The mage's jacket isn't hardened armor.
> >
> > So, if the power exceeds the barrier's rating, I'd make the mage
> > roll a damage resistance test. In this case his target number would
> > be a 2 so the chances of him actually taking damage are slim. But
> > I'd still make him do it.
>
> Actually, the odds of the mage taking damage are pretty good.
> Assuming the shooter made only one success, resisting 2M still
> requires 4 successes (5 acutally, since I think second edition uses
> net successes to determine damage changes).
>
> What percentage of mages have bodies of 4? (or 5). And this is
> assuming they roll no 1's. While I don't expect them to roll many,
> out of 4 dice the odds are pretty good of getting one 1. So to be
> safe, we can say that on average, the mage needs a body of 6 to take
> no damage, and then only if the attacker made only one success on the
> to-hit test.
>
> Doesn't sound too common to me.

Except that most mages have high Intelligence and Willpower, this gives
them a higher-than-average combat pool. Thus, it would be rather easy for
a mage to dodge such an attack.
further, mages have all sorts of neat increase attribute spells which
would make them all the more difficult to damage with normal weapons. A
good mage could easily have a combat pool of 15+ with increase attribute
and personal combat sense spells, making him virtually unhittable,
especially if he fights with magic, and only uses combat pool for defense.
Message no. 4
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Barrier + balistic armor
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:53:33 -0500
At 07:57 PM 2/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
A
>good mage could easily have a combat pool of 15+ with increase attribute
>and personal combat sense spells, making him virtually unhittable,
>especially if he fights with magic, and only uses combat pool for defense.

This is one of the problems with dice pools. But, since they are supposed
to represent the amount of 'extra attention' you are paying to defense or
offense, it would make sense (as a house rule, mind you) to allow only one
dice pool in use at a time. At a time here meaning each time you are
eligible for more than a free action in a combat phase. Thus if you use
magic pool on your first action of the turn, you can only use magic pool
for defense (where applicable), until you take your second action of the
turn. No combat pool is available until you take a new action. This would
eliminate the 'spare pool' effect, but it would also make mages a little
more careful about deciding their actions, since magic pool would be
unavailable when they were doing unrelated things.


losthalo@********.comGoFa6)7(Im6TJt)Fe(7P!ShMoB4/19.2Bk!cBkc8MBV6sM3ZG
oPuTeiClbMehC6a23=n4bSSH173g4L??96FmT1Ea4@*********************
4h7sM8zSsYnk6BSMmpFNN0393NRfmSLusOH1Whileyouarelisteningyourwillingat
tentionismakingyoumoreandmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome
Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Barrier + balistic armor
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:15:14 -0700
losthalo wrote:
/
/ At 07:57 PM 2/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
/ >good mage could easily have a combat pool of 15+ with increase attribute
/ >and personal combat sense spells, making him virtually unhittable,
/ >especially if he fights with magic, and only uses combat pool for defense.
/
/ This is one of the problems with dice pools. But, since they are supposed
/ to represent the amount of 'extra attention' you are paying to defense or
/ offense, it would make sense (as a house rule, mind you) to allow only one
/ dice pool in use at a time.

Hmm... I disagree. IMO a dice pool represents a PC's unconscious ability
to survive. The player may be deciding which dice go were, but I don't
view the PC as having a conscious control over his dice pools. IMHO dice
pools are a game mechanic that seperate the PC "heroes" from the rest of
the world.

Just my two cents :)

-David
--
"By the way, this may look like a slab of liver
but it's an external brain pack."
- Ratbert
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 6
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Barrier + balistic armor
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:18:39 +0000
> / This is one of the problems with dice pools. But, since they are supposed
> / to represent the amount of 'extra attention' you are paying to defense or

> Hmm... I disagree. IMO a dice pool represents a PC's unconscious ability
> to survive. The player may be deciding which dice go were, but I don't

Just to add my 2 cents to the ante, I go with the original view: A
dice pool represents extra attention. This is why it is split
between attacking and defense. If you shoot one of my players from
behind and he has no clue, he gets no pool.

-=SwiftOne=-

Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 7
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Barrier + balistic armor
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:17:12 +0000
> > safe, we can say that on average, the mage needs a body of 6 to take
> > no damage, and then only if the attacker made only one success on the
> > to-hit test.
> >
> > Doesn't sound too common to me.
>
> Except that most mages have high Intelligence and Willpower, this gives
> them a higher-than-average combat pool. Thus, it would be rather easy for
> a mage to dodge such an attack.

Again, complaining about the fiction, this doesn't give the "bullet
ricochet" effect. This is the "run like hell" effect.

> further, mages have all sorts of neat increase attribute spells which
> would make them all the more difficult to damage with normal weapons. A
> good mage could easily have a combat pool of 15+ with increase attribute
> and personal combat sense spells, making him virtually unhittable,
> especially if he fights with magic, and only uses combat pool for defense.

Few mages in my world would dare tempt fate by having such spells on
him. Again, I would say uncommon. Interestingly, I would also
notice that Mages in my world tend to have smaller combat pools than
the sammies. (Most of my sammies go for high Int, Will, and
Quickness. Often Willpower is higher than body)

I'm not trying to talk about what is possible, but what is
"probable".

-=SwiftOne=-

Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 8
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Barrier + balistic armor
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:40:17 -0700
Brett Borger wrote:
/
/ > / This is one of the problems with dice pools. But, since they are supposed
/ > / to represent the amount of 'extra attention' you are paying to defense or
/
/ > Hmm... I disagree. IMO a dice pool represents a PC's unconscious ability
/ > to survive. The player may be deciding which dice go were, but I don't
/
/ Just to add my 2 cents to the ante, I go with the original view: A
/ dice pool represents extra attention. This is why it is split
/ between attacking and defense. If you shoot one of my players from
/ behind and he has no clue, he gets no pool.

doh. I forgot about the "can't use pool if suprised" rule. Nevermind.

-David
--
"By the way, this may look like a slab of liver
but it's an external brain pack."
- Ratbert
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 9
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Barrier + balistic armor -Reply
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:32:06 -0500
losthalo <losthalo@********.COM> 02/18/98 09:53am >>> wrote:
> since they are supposed to represent the amount of 'extra attention'
> you are paying to defense or offense, it would make sense (as a
> house rule, mind you) to allow only one dice pool in use at a time. At a
> time here meaning each time you are eligible for more than a free
> action in a combat phase. Thus if you use magic pool on your first
> action of the turn, you can only use magic pool for defense (where
> applicable), until you take your second action of the turn. No combat
> pool is available until you take a new action.

Actually, the most realistic model of attention would be this house rule:
Whenever a character uses some dice from a pool, reduce all pools by
the same percentage, rounding against the character. This way, you
can split your attention between spell casting and dodging, but can't do
both at 100%, and things you aren't very good at take a lot more
attention (for the same number of dice) than things that have become
second nature to you.

Unfortunately, the math involved in this makes it unlikely to be a very
popular house rule. It bogs down play too much.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 10
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Barrier + balistic armor -Reply
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:54:45 -0500
At 05:32 PM 2/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Actually, the most realistic model of attention would be this house rule:
>Whenever a character uses some dice from a pool, reduce all pools by
>the same percentage, rounding against the character. This way, you
>can split your attention between spell casting and dodging, but can't do
>both at 100%, and things you aren't very good at take a lot more
>attention (for the same number of dice) than things that have become
>second nature to you.

Well, my point actually was that if you are dodging gunfire or acquiring
targets (Combat Pool) you're prolly not involved in bringing thaumaturgic
defenses (Magic Pool) to mind at the same time. They're two great tastes
that don't go great together, if you will.

losthalo

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