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From:	Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject:	Barriers'n'stuff
Date:	Mon, 27 Sep 1999 03:16:57 +0100 (BST)

Message no. 1 Damaging manipulation spells create a kind-of
"physical" component which travels from the caster to
the target. Would a barrier spell be able to block the
physical component? Would it depend what KIND of
barrier spell it was? So a plain barrier would block
the spell, but a bullet or blast barrier wouldn't,
because they aren't DESIGNED to block that kind of
thing? If they DID block to spell, what would happen?
Would the spell detonate when it hit the barrier, or
just fizzle out?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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From:	Da Twink Daddy datwinkdaddy@*******.com
Subject:	Barriers'n'stuff
Date:	Sun, 26 Sep 1999 21:37:53 -0500 (CDT)

Message no. 2 Tomorrow, Rand Ratinac spoke on Barriers'n'stuff:

> Damaging manipulation spells create a kind-of
> "physical" component which travels from the caster to
> the target. Would a barrier spell be able to block the
> physical component? Would it depend what KIND of
> barrier spell it was?

Yes.

> So a plain barrier would block
> the spell, but a bullet or blast barrier wouldn't,
> because they aren't DESIGNED to block that kind of
> thing?

Right, although if the DM has the elemental effect of blast (or just seems
blast-like) I'd probably have the blast barrier block it.

> If they DID block to spell, what would happen?
> Would the spell detonate when it hit the barrier, or
> just fizzle out?

Just as if a DM hit a physical [glass?] wall on the way to it's target.
Ground zero from elemental effects becomes the casting mages side of the
barrier. The barrier will preform it's noraml duties but a powerful enough
spell could just break its way through.

Da Twink Daddy
e-mail: bss03@*******.uark.edu
ICQ: 514984

From:	Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject:	Barriers'n'stuff
Date:	Mon, 27 Sep 1999 04:07:09 +0100 (BST)

Message no. 3 > > So a plain barrier would block the spell, but a
bullet or blast barrier wouldn't, because they aren't
DESIGNED to block that kind of thing?
>
> Right, although if the DM has the elemental effect
of blast (or just seems blast-like) I'd probably have
the blast barrier block it.
> Da Twink Daddy

So you're saying that a blast barrier would block the
"physical component" of fireballs, hellblasts and
other explosive spells because they WILL possess the
"blast" effect when they go off?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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From:	Iridios iridios@*****.com
Subject:	Barriers'n'stuff
Date:	Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:24:43 -0400

Message no. 4 Rand Ratinac wrote:

> > Right, although if the DM has the elemental effect
> of blast (or just seems blast-like) I'd probably have
> the blast barrier block it.
> > Da Twink Daddy
>
> So you're saying that a blast barrier would block the
> "physical component" of fireballs, hellblasts and
> other explosive spells because they WILL possess the
> "blast" effect when they go off?

Fireballs don't have a blast component. Do they? Not having read
Mits, I'm not completely sure how DM spells travel. Spells like
fireball and hellblast would probably have a small globe of energy
travel to the target (the physical component of the spell), they would
then "go off" at the target. This would, IMO, bypass the barrier as
there is no blast yet (and in the case of fireball, no blast at all
(IMO)). Now a hellblast going off outside the barrier would be
stopped (or reduced) by a blast barrier.

A spell barrier and/or a physical barrier should be able to the DM
spell just fine.

--
Iridios
"Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept."

From:	Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject:	Barriers'n'stuff
Date:	Mon, 27 Sep 1999 04:51:11 +0100 (BST)

Message no. 5 > Fireballs don't have a blast component. Do they?

Well, by blast (as in blast barrier), I'm thinking
explosion, not the actual blast elemental effect. And,
IMO, fireballs are pretty explosive. If I'm
interpreting the blast barrier (or fireball) spell
badly, let me know. I see the blast barrier spell as a
spell designed to protect against all kinds of
explosions, magical or otherwise. Maybe I should give
that one a different name.

> Not having read Mits, I'm not completely sure how DM
spells travel. Spells like fireball and hellblast
would probably have a small globe of energy travel to
the target (the physical component of the spell), they
would then "go off" at the target. This would, IMO,
bypass the barrier as there is no blast yet (and in
the case of fireball, no blast at all (IMO)).

That would've been my interpretation for a blast
barrier. But would a plain barrier (stop all physical
junk) stop the physical component?

> A spell barrier and/or a physical barrier should be
able to the DM spell just fine.
> Iridios

To...stop?

But, AFAIK, there's no such thing as a spell (mana)
barrier anymore. Unless I've missed something, the
closest thing to the old mana barrier is an astral
barrier. Now that WOULD, obviously, stop the spells,
as it stops all astral travel and the physical
component of a DM spell also exists on the astral. But
there aren't any physical barriers that'll stop
spells. So what would happen if an ASTRAL barrier
stopped the spell? Fizzle or detonate where it was
stopped?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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From:	Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject:	Barriers'n'stuff
Date:	Mon, 27 Sep 1999 07:00:20 +0100 (BST)

Message no. 6 Something I forgot to ask...

An astral barrier will stop a spell - but it won't
stop the effect, will it? Or would it block an area
combat spell's effect, but not a damaging manipulation
one's?

I'm pretty sure it'd have no effect on a DM spell once
it's gone off - and if Da Twink Daddy is right about
the spell going off then and there if it hits the
barrier and can't penetrate...well...

Try this tactic (read: incredibly nasty trick) on
mages who like casting DM spells. Cast an astral
barrier between him and you, only a few metres in
front of him. He casts his spell and it hits the
barrier. If it doesn't get through, it goes off right
in front of him - and because the astral barrier has
no effect on the actual spell effect, it goes off and
hits anyone nearby - most probably his own pals. Boom.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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From:	Da Twink Daddy datwinkdaddy@*******.com
Subject:	Barriers'n'stuff
Date:	Mon, 27 Sep 1999 02:22:00 -0500 (CDT)

Message no. 7 Today, Rand Ratinac spoke on Re: Barriers'n'stuff:

> So you're saying that a blast barrier would block the
> "physical component" of fireballs, hellblasts and
> other explosive spells because they WILL possess the
> "blast" effect when they go off?

I dont' think either of those spells could be lumped under the elemental
effect 'blast' but, if they are then yes.

DM's manifest (if you will) at the caster, and are then magically 'thrown'
at hte intended target. Normal barriers (armor etc.) will block them and I
feel that since they already have physcial form, it is only appropriate
that they have thier final physical form and therefore fall under the
'blast' restricted target or a blast barrier. [Or whatever thier elemental
effect might be.]

IMO, IMC only. DM's can be done differently depending on your (GM's)
opinion(s).

Da Twink Daddy
e-mail: bss03@*******.uark.edu
ICQ: 514984

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Barriers'n'stuff
Date:	Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:16:17 +0200

Message no. 8 According to Rand Ratinac, at 7:00 on 27 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> An astral barrier will stop a spell - but it won't
> stop the effect, will it? Or would it block an area
> combat spell's effect, but not a damaging manipulation
> one's?

I'd say: use the normal rules for breaking through barriers. If the
attacking spell is powerful enough to get through the Barrier spell, then
anyone on the other side can be affected (provided there is LOS, for
combat spells) but with a reduced Power Level.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is een boek om in het donker te lezen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Barriers'n'stuff
Date:	Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:16:17 +0200

Message no. 9 According to Rand Ratinac, at 3:16 on 27 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Damaging manipulation spells create a kind-of
> "physical" component which travels from the caster to
> the target. Would a barrier spell be able to block the
> physical component?

I would say yes, it can block the spell.

> Would it depend what KIND of barrier spell it was? So a plain barrier
> would block the spell, but a bullet or blast barrier wouldn't, because
> they aren't DESIGNED to block that kind of thing?

Certainly. IMHO, spells like Bullet Barrier analyze what's flying by, and
then say "Oh, it's not a bullet (or whatever), so I'll let it through" --
so unless you're using a manipulation spell that creates a bullet (etc.)
from thin air and shoots it at the spell's target, the Barrier spell
wouldn't stop it.

> If they DID block to spell, what would happen? Would the spell detonate
> when it hit the barrier, or just fizzle out?

Use the normal rules for shooting manipulation spells against targets on
the other side of barriers, SR3 p. 125 and 182. If the spell's Power
(=Force) is high enough to penetrate the Barrier spell, it will, and be
able to attack a target on the other side; if the Force isn't high enough,
the spell will hit the Barrier and that's it. I'd say it doesn't
"detonate" against the Barrier, though, because it's not intended of
exploding at that point.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is een boek om in het donker te lezen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Iridios iridios@*****.com
Subject:	Barriers'n'stuff
Date:	Mon, 27 Sep 1999 08:12:49 -0400

Message no. 10 Rand Ratinac wrote:

> > A spell barrier and/or a physical barrier should be
> able to the DM spell just fine.
> > Iridios
>
> To...stop?

Yes there should have been a stop.

>
> But, AFAIK, there's no such thing as a spell (mana)
> barrier anymore. Unless I've missed something, the
> closest thing to the old mana barrier is an astral
> barrier. Now that WOULD, obviously, stop the spells,
> as it stops all astral travel and the physical
> component of a DM spell also exists on the astral. But
> there aren't any physical barriers that'll stop
> spells. So what would happen if an ASTRAL barrier
> stopped the spell? Fizzle or detonate where it was
> stopped?

I would rule that since the DM spell didn't reach it's intended target
it would fizzle. Why? Because when the person cast the spell, the
"Astral Form" of the target was made the "trigger" of the spell and
the spell didn't reach that form. Of course, this is assuming that
the target was anything but air. (Can you target empty space with a
DM spell?)

--
Iridios
"Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept."

From:	Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject:	Barriers'n'stuff
Date:	Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:25:08 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 11 > > But, AFAIK, there's no such thing as a spell
> (mana)
> > barrier anymore. Unless I've missed something, the
> > closest thing to the old mana barrier is an astral
> > barrier. Now that WOULD, obviously, stop the
> spells,
> > as it stops all astral travel and the physical
> > component of a DM spell also exists on the astral.
> But
> > there aren't any physical barriers that'll stop
> > spells. So what would happen if an ASTRAL barrier
> > stopped the spell? Fizzle or detonate where it was
> > stopped?
>
> I would rule that since the DM spell didn't reach
> it's intended target
> it would fizzle. Why? Because when the person cast
> the spell, the
> "Astral Form" of the target was made the "trigger"
> of the spell and
> the spell didn't reach that form. Of course, this
> is assuming that
> the target was anything but air. (Can you target
> empty space with a
> DM spell?)
> Iridios

Right right right. Shoulda been more specific. I was
really thinking area spells. But I suppose you could
still say they're targeted at a SPECIFIC area or a
specific point and the area effect has nothing to do
with where the spell is targeted, and that unless it
reaches that area or point it won't work.

Would that be your interpretation, Iridios?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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From:	De Herdt Sven Sven.De.Herdt@***************.be
Subject:	Barriers'n'stuff
Date:	Tue, 28 Sep 1999 08:56:06 -0000

Message no. 12 > Gurth[SMTP:gurth@******.nl] wrote:
>
<snipping>

>> If they DID block to spell, what would happen? Would the spell detonate
>> when it hit the barrier, or just fizzle out?

>Use the normal rules for shooting manipulation spells against targets on
>the other side of barriers, SR3 p. 125 and 182. If the spell's Power
>(=Force) is high enough to penetrate the Barrier spell, it will, and be
>able to attack a target on the other side; if the Force isn't high enough,
>the spell will hit the Barrier and that's it. I'd say it doesn't
>"detonate" against the Barrier, though, because it's not intended of
>exploding at that point.

The problem I always have with these rules is that they only depend on the
Force of the spell and do not take the damage code, fi. this means that
whenever barriers are involved it really doesn't matter whether you toss a
small, insignificant flame (3 L) or a major mojo hellfire (3 D). The only
difference is that with the latter you got a fair chance to end up dead (or
at least unconscious) yourself. Sorry for exaggerating the extremes of the
effect, it's just to make a clear point.

I always found this a bit illogical since the physical damage (IMHO) not
only depends on the Force of the spell, but also on the damaging code.

Anyone has any suggestions on this, houserules, comments,...?

>--
>Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

Sven :)

From:	De Herdt Sven Sven.De.Herdt@***************.be
Subject:	Barriers'n'stuff
Date:	Tue, 28 Sep 1999 09:02:37 -0000

Message no. 13 >Gurth[SMTP:gurth@******.nl] wrote:

>> An astral barrier will stop a spell - but it won't
>> stop the effect, will it? Or would it block an area
>> combat spell's effect, but not a damaging manipulation
>> one's?

>I'd say: use the normal rules for breaking through barriers. If the
>attacking spell is powerful enough to get through the Barrier spell, then
>anyone on the other side can be affected (provided there is LOS, for
>combat spells) but with a reduced Power Level.

I would only rule as such when physical barriers (of any kind) are involved.

(IIRC, and I might be wrong on this) Astral barriers increase the target
number when spells are involved that want to penetrate the barrier. Meaning
that successfully tossing the spell would mean it reaching the destination
and therefor will generate its fullest effect (please correct me if I'm
wrong, since I don't have access to my sourcebooks to verify for the
moment).

>--
>Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
>
Just my thoughts,
Sven :)

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Barriers'n'stuff
Date:	Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:45:24 +0200

Message no. 14 According to De Herdt Sven, at 8:56 on 28 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> The problem I always have with these rules is that they only depend on the
> Force of the spell and do not take the damage code, fi. this means that
> whenever barriers are involved it really doesn't matter whether you toss a
> small, insignificant flame (3 L) or a major mojo hellfire (3 D). The only
> difference is that with the latter you got a fair chance to end up dead (or
> at least unconscious) yourself. Sorry for exaggerating the extremes of the
> effect, it's just to make a clear point.

That's the case with any attack against barriers in SR: only the Power
Level is relevant to determining the Barrier Rating reduction. I once
spent several months going over all the little details of the barrier
rules with someone (via e-mail, of course) until we had the whole thing
figured out, and the Damage Level doesn't come into it anywhere... (For
those interested in our conculsions: you can find the results in the
Shadowrun Archive (no idea where exactly) as well as a Plastic Warriors
book, http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/srbooks/tpgtshr.html)

> Anyone has any suggestions on this, houserules, comments,...?

What I plan to use in future (but haven't so far) is a variation on normal
damage resistence rules: roll the Barrier Rating as if it were the
barrier's Body against the Power Level of the attack, and inflict damage
using a normal condition monitor. Once it reaches Deadly, the barrier is
destroyed.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is een boek om in het donker te lezen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Barriers'n'stuff
Date:	Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:45:24 +0200

Message no. 15 According to De Herdt Sven, at 9:02 on 28 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> >> An astral barrier will stop a spell - but it won't
> >> stop the effect, will it? Or would it block an area
> >> combat spell's effect, but not a damaging manipulation
> >> one's?
>
> >I'd say: use the normal rules for breaking through barriers. If the
> >attacking spell is powerful enough to get through the Barrier spell, then
> >anyone on the other side can be affected (provided there is LOS, for
> >combat spells) but with a reduced Power Level.
>
> I would only rule as such when physical barriers (of any kind) are involved.

Well... I missed the word "astral" in Doc's question, but on re-reading
Astral Barrier's description, it doesn't seem like it'll make much of a
difference. Both simply provide a Barrier Rating that attacks need to get
through.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is een boek om in het donker te lezen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	De Herdt Sven Sven.De.Herdt@***************.be
Subject:	Barriers'n'stuff
Date:	Tue, 28 Sep 1999 13:48:28 -0000

Message no. 16 >Gurth[SMTP:gurth@******.nl] wrote:

>That's the case with any attack against barriers in SR: only the Power
>Level is relevant to determining the Barrier Rating reduction. I once
>spent several months going over all the little details of the barrier
>rules with someone (via e-mail, of course) until we had the whole thing
>figured out, and the Damage Level doesn't come into it anywhere... (For
>those interested in our conculsions: you can find the results in the
>Shadowrun Archive (no idea where exactly) as well as a Plastic Warriors
>book, http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/srbooks/tpgtshr.html)

Same here, that's why I was confident enough to post the remark/question on
the barriers. I also had quite some discussions with other GMs and players,
but lacked the time to create houserules for this issue.

>--
>Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
>
Sven :)

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