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Message no. 1
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Barrier spells
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 1995 11:27:10 +0100
I've got a little question... what would happen if you cast a Barrier spell
in a place where someone is already standing? :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The story you have just heard is true.
The names have not been changed to protect the guilty.
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Message no. 2
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Barrier spells
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 00:00:38 +1000
Gurth writes:

> I've got a little question... what would happen if you cast a Barrier spell
> in a place where someone is already standing? :)

Good question. I'd say the spell takes normal effect, but there is a
temporary "gap" around the person in it. Once the person moves out of the
spot where the barrier is, then the spell will be as normal, and the "gap"
will close. It's kind of like asking "what will happen if I cast a barrier
spell across the open elevator doors in front of me?" Well, I'd be ruling
that the spell does not take effect in the areas where you cannot see (ie,
if you make the barrier a wall, then it only effects the bit you can see,
there is no sudden barrier on the other side of the walls to the left and
right) - the same as an area of effect combat spell, it won't damage targets
on the other side of a wall, even if they are in the actual area of effect.
Now, in the case of a barrier spell, a person isn't a target, so you could
consider it to be like an inanimate object (like a trash can for example) -
what happens if I cast a barrier spell over a spot where there is a garbage
can? The spell just doesn't cover that area, becasue there is the aura of
the garbage can (or person) in that bit of astral real estate blocking it.
Once the offending space stealing aura moves (like shooting the garbage bin,
or the person moving), then the spell folds over and takes up the vacated
space.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
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Message no. 3
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Barrier Spells...
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 11:12:04 +0200
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 11:12:00 +0200 (MET DST)

Hi Folks !

I recently thought about the Barrier Spells and I discovered that I wasn't
able to find a statement whether they count as "Hardened Armor". I would
think so, but is there any statement in the sourcebooks ? How do you handle
this ?

Another thought is: You can reduce the radius by withholding dice from the
spell success test - if I withhold 12 dice (my magic rating is 6) the Barrier
would be some kind of a "second skin", right ? What do you think about this ?

Bye...
Georg

--
Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE
Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de
Message no. 4
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells...
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 10:54:57 GMT
> From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
>
> Hi Folks !
>
> I recently thought about the Barrier Spells and I discovered that I wasn't
> able to find a statement whether they count as "Hardened Armor". I would
> think so, but is there any statement in the sourcebooks ? How do you handle
> this ?
>
they are barriers, see bariers in the combat section NOT armour. They
therfore suffer damge to their rating the same as walls and doors,
they do also stop (though they may take damage from) and attack with
a power rating equal to or lower than their force. Note in any action
by the mage that cast the barrier thay return to full power if still
running.


> Another thought is: You can reduce the radius by withholding dice from the
> spell success test - if I withhold 12 dice (my magic rating is 6) the Barrier
> would be some kind of a "second skin", right ? What do you think about this
?
>
if force 12.
note you may only withold dice like this to a maiximum equal to the
spells force rating! so don't get all detect spells at force 1.
to get skin tight barrier spells simple redesign new 'personal'
versions without the 'area effect' option, it notes under the grioire
barrier spells the resulting drain codes (1 drain level lower)
Much more effective.

> Bye...
> Georg
>
Mark
Message no. 5
From: "Brian A. Stewart" <bstewart@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells...
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 09:38:46 -0700
Previously Georg Greve wrote,

>Another thought is: You can reduce the radius by withholding dice from the
>spell success test - if I withhold 12 dice (my magic rating is 6) the Barrier
>would be some kind of a "second skin", right ? What do you think about this
?
>
>Bye...
> Georg
>
Just create a new spell without the area effect. Mucho more effective then
witholding dice.

Medic 1
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Blessed are the young,
For they shall inherit the National Debt.

-Herbert Humphrey

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
bstewart@***.uug.arizona.edu
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Message no. 6
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells...
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 13:00:11 +0200
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 13:00:06 +0200 (MET DST)

> they are barriers, see bariers in the combat section NOT armour. They
> therfore suffer damge to their rating the same as walls and doors,
> they do also stop (though they may take damage from) and attack with
> a power rating equal to or lower than their force. Note in any action
> by the mage that cast the barrier thay return to full power if still
> running.

So hardened armor is still much more valuable, because you use the unadjusted
damage level for it. For barriers you adjust first and then decide whether the
attack breaks through...

Bye...
Georg

P.S. But anyway - the barrier spells makes me think of the gel-pack armor for
my Armor Jacket - after they had to break through the barrier the attacks
should be weak enough to get stopped by the Armor Jacket completely. ;-))

--
Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE
Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de
Message no. 7
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells...
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 14:02:24 GMT
> From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>

> > they are barriers, see bariers in the combat section NOT armour. They
> > therfore suffer damge to their rating the same as walls and doors,
> > they do also stop (though they may take damage from) and attack with
> > a power rating equal to or lower than their force. Note in any action
> > by the mage that cast the barrier thay return to full power if still
> > running.
>
> So hardened armor is still much more valuable, because you use the unadjusted
> damage level for it. For barriers you adjust first and then decide whether the
> attack breaks through...
>
hardened armour is betterthan your typical FASA barrier spell in
heavy combat because it does not collapse under multiple bullets.
However a barrier spell is a LOT easier to sneak past security, ah
yes thats really a tourist in that military armour, yeah right!

My opinion or the standard barrier spells is that below about force 8
they are next thing to useless as a long term protection as the first
double burst fire that hits you will destroy them. (they still make
great 1 action while i vapourise the badguys defences though) above
about force 10 they are so powerful you can laugh at panther cannons
(as you stack another load of normal arnour underneath).

My solution though no one has actually used it significantly is to
redesign the barrier spells.

barrier spell new spell 'barriered armour'
armour value +force / +force +1/2 force / +1/2 force
counts as barrier rating soft armour that add directly to
(hardened see worn
breaking through
barriers also)

leave the drain codes alone and just change the bonus game affect to
the above

eg dude with armour jacket on fired at by AK98 on burst, force 8
barrier

old FASA
total armour rating = 5 + 6 = 13 (8 hardened)
burst 1
bullet 1 bounces off, > 1/2 barrier rating so does -1 rating
new barrier force = 7.
bullet 2 penetrates at power 1 , > barrier rating = 2pts damage
new barrier force = 5
bullet 3 penetrates at power 3 - armour = 1 again 2 barrier damage
new barrier force = 3

damage = 2 bullet short burt does 2M wound (2 = game minimum target
number) ou ouch!!

burst 2
bullet 1 penetrates at power 5 - armour = 1 > 2* barrier, does 4 pts
damage and destroys barrier!!!, spell is down!
bullets 2&3 = short burst 8M + 2 bullets = 10M vs armour 5 = 5M, oops.
(or all 3 is 8M - 8 + 3 and 1 = 3S, your choice which code you want)

new spell
armour = 5 + 8/2 = 9
incomming 11S becomes 2S and does not affect the spell.

one may note that with the FASA version the first burst does less
damage!!! but long term the latter is better, it also limits the
bonus armour at +5 or 6 not 10 to 12 (eg from 8 + expenable +
exclusive spell!!)

> Bye...
> Georg
>
Mark
Message no. 8
From: Dave Woods <spuwdsda@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells...
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 14:47:58 +0100
On Fri, 21 Jul 1995, Mark Steedman wrote:

>
> one may note that with the FASA version the first burst does less
> damage!!! but long term the latter is better, it also limits the
> bonus armour at +5 or 6 not 10 to 12 (eg from 8 + expenable +
> exclusive spell!!)
>

Expendable + Exclusive? I seem to remember reading that this was not
possible.

> > Bye...
> > Georg
> >
> Mark
>

- David
Message no. 9
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells...
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 17:56:29 +0200
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 17:56:26 +0200 (MET DST)

> old FASA
> total armour rating = 5 + 6 = 13 (8 hardened)
> burst 1
> bullet 1 bounces off, > 1/2 barrier rating so does -1 rating
> new barrier force = 7.
> bullet 2 penetrates at power 1 , > barrier rating = 2pts damage
> new barrier force = 5
> bullet 3 penetrates at power 3 - armour = 1 again 2 barrier damage
> new barrier force = 3

> damage = 2 bullet short burt does 2M wound (2 = game minimum target
> number) ou ouch!!

That's not quite right - only against hardened Armor (which Barrier spells
aren't) you watch single bullets. You have to count bursts as a single attack
(which is rather nasty for the poor barrier). But you have to take another
look at the sourcebook: Against bullets DOUBLE the barrier rating for
determining damage to the barrier ! ;-))

So your example would be:

Guy with Force 8 barrier spell and Armor Jacket gets a burst from an
AK98:

Burst damage by AK98: 11S

This is higher than the barrier rating, so the burst goes through, but at
3S (11-8). The power of the attack is greater than (2*8=)16/2, so reduce
the barrier rating by 1. The armor jacket reduces the power level to minimum
(2S) and now you may resist the damage.
So the result is a barrier which is weakened one point and a good chance to
dodge the burst.
If you now think of a armor jacket with gel packs (which make the armor
jacket count as hardened armor) you have a barrier which is reduced by one
and a burst which bounces off the armor jacket. Looks like the barrier spells
aren't as weak as many people think, eh ?

Of course you get some serious problems if someone shoots with full autofire
at you as soon as they see that a burst can't reach you:

Full Autofire Damage by AK98: 18D

This is reduced by 8 for the barrier, which is reduced to 6 by that.

the remaining 10D can't be stopped completely by the armor jacket (5/3),
so you have a 5D to roll dice against. If you take at least a moderate wound
your armor jacket is damaged, which leaves the following results:

A barrier rating 6, a damaged armor jacket (4/2) and an awfully bleeding
magician (if the guy with the AK98 was worth his nuyen)... not very
pleasant ! So be careful - the barrier helps a lot, but you gotta be very
careful not to overestimate its power, because it doesn't help very much
against foes who REALLY want to kick your ass. ;-)

Bye...
Georg

--
Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE
Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de
Message no. 10
From: Dwayne MacKinnon <910252m@******.ACADIAU.CA>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells...
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 14:47:05 -0300
>
> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 17:56:26 +0200 (MET DST)
>
> > old FASA
> > total armour rating = 5 + 6 = 13 (8 hardened)
> > burst 1
> > bullet 1 bounces off, > 1/2 barrier rating so does -1 rating
> > new barrier force = 7.
> > bullet 2 penetrates at power 1 , > barrier rating = 2pts damage
> > new barrier force = 5
> > bullet 3 penetrates at power 3 - armour = 1 again 2 barrier damage
> > new barrier force = 3
>
> > damage = 2 bullet short burt does 2M wound (2 = game minimum target
> > number) ou ouch!!
>
> That's not quite right - only against hardened Armor (which Barrier spells
> aren't) you watch single bullets. You have to count bursts as a single attack
> (which is rather nasty for the poor barrier). But you have to take another
> look at the sourcebook: Against bullets DOUBLE the barrier rating for
> determining damage to the barrier ! ;-))
>
> So your example would be:
>
> Guy with Force 8 barrier spell and Armor Jacket gets a burst from an
> AK98:
>
> Burst damage by AK98: 11S
>

You have a problem here: to quote from the Shadowrun II softcover, page 98:
(Copyright FASA) "Always use the base Power Rating of the round,
unmodified by burst or full auto fire, for comparison against the
barrier rating."

> This is higher than the barrier rating, so the burst goes through, but at
> 3S (11-8). The power of the attack is greater than (2*8=)16/2, so reduce
> the barrier rating by 1. The armor jacket reduces the power level to minimum
> (2S) and now you may resist the damage.

This is all true, but remember that you're just barely equal (at this
point) to 1/2 the adjusted barrier rating. (base power of AK98 = 8.)

> So the result is a barrier which is weakened one point and a good chance to
> dodge the burst.
> If you now think of a armor jacket with gel packs (which make the armor
> jacket count as hardened armor) you have a barrier which is reduced by one
> and a burst which bounces off the armor jacket. Looks like the barrier spells
> aren't as weak as many people think, eh ?
>
Indeed, indeed. :-) If an initiate were to put up a level 11 barrier
spell, the only things to get throughwould be explosives, sniper rifles,
and cannons, just about.

> Of course you get some serious problems if someone shoots with full autofire
> at you as soon as they see that a burst can't reach you:
>
> Full Autofire Damage by AK98: 18D
>
> This is reduced by 8 for the barrier, which is reduced to 6 by that.
>

Nope. To the barrier, the autofire doesn't matter. :) The barrier would only
only be reduced by 1. (actually, in ANY case, even if the guy was using
a Panther cannon which would HAVE a power rating of 18 against the
barrier.)

> the remaining 10D can't be stopped completely by the armor jacket (5/3),
> so you have a 5D to roll dice against. If you take at least a moderate wound
> your armor jacket is damaged, which leaves the following results:
>
> A barrier rating 6, a damaged armor jacket (4/2) and an awfully bleeding
> magician (if the guy with the AK98 was worth his nuyen)... not very
> pleasant ! So be careful - the barrier helps a lot, but you gotta be very
> careful not to overestimate its power, because it doesn't help very much
> against foes who REALLY want to kick your ass. ;-)


Actually, they help a LOT. Against a Level 9 barrier the guy with the
AK98 woulda been completely outta luck. He woulda been wasting lead.

DMK

--
Dwayne MacKinnon My opinions are my own, never
910252m@******.acadiau.ca those of my employer.
Message no. 11
From: Ian Smith <KildTheCat@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells...
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 15:27:59 -0400
>So hardened armor is still much more valuable, because you >use the
unadjusted
>damage level for it. For barriers you adjust first and then >decide whether
the
>attack breaks through...

Uh uh. ALL barriers sort out whether or not the attack breaks through
*before* adjusting the power of the weapon. Ex. Ingram Valiant on full auto
( base 7S, modified 17D ), will never go through a rating 8 barrier, be that
a kick ass suit of armor, or a wall, or a barrier spell.
That's one of the reasons why APDS is so useful . . .
Message no. 12
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells...
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 23:23:54 +0200
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 23:23:50 +0200 (MET DST)

> You have a problem here: to quote from the Shadowrun II softcover, page 98:
> (Copyright FASA) "Always use the base Power Rating of the round,
> unmodified by burst or full auto fire, for comparison against the
> barrier rating."

Man - I love you for this quote !!! I will show this one to my GM - thanks !!
This means that barriers are equal to hardened armor, indeed. The only
difference is, that they are reduced in power if something penetrates them...

> Actually, they help a LOT. Against a Level 9 barrier the guy with the
> AK98 woulda been completely outta luck. He woulda been wasting lead.

I think I know which spell to learn next... ;-))))

Bye...
Georg

--
Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE
Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de
Message no. 13
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells...
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 20:05:06 +1000
Georg Greve writes:

> Man - I love you for this quote !!! I will show this one to my GM - thanks !!
> This means that barriers are equal to hardened armor, indeed. The only
> difference is, that they are reduced in power if something penetrates them...

They are also reduced in Rating by one point if the Power of the attack is
equal to or greater than half the adjusted Rating of the barrier and less
than or equal to the full adjusted barrier Rating. The attack will not
penetrate, but it will reduce the barriers Rating by one point.

(As a side note, it is fully possible to argue that hardened armour, aka,
vehicle armour, _is_ reduced in the same fashion as barriers. But I digress.)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 14
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells...
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 10:54:06 GMT
> From: Dwayne MacKinnon <910252m@******.ACADIAU.CA>

> > That's not quite right - only against hardened Armor (which Barrier spells
> > aren't) you watch single bullets. You have to count bursts as a single attack
> > (which is rather nasty for the poor barrier). But you have to take another
> > look at the sourcebook: Against bullets DOUBLE the barrier rating for
> > determining damage to the barrier ! ;-))
> >
ah forgot one modifier. Though as below demonstrates if you apply
this modifier to barrier spells they become so powerful it is
unreasonable. Actually is that modifier for damage or firing through
or both? - must reread book.

> > So your example would be:
> >
> > Guy with Force 8 barrier spell and Armor Jacket gets a burst from an
> > AK98:
> >
> > Burst damage by AK98: 11S
> >
>
> You have a problem here: to quote from the Shadowrun II softcover, page 98:
> (Copyright FASA) "Always use the base Power Rating of the round,
> unmodified by burst or full auto fire, for comparison against the
> barrier rating."
>
Which is why you have to treat a burst as 3 single bullets.

> > This is higher than the barrier rating, so the burst goes through, but at
> > 3S (11-8). The power of the attack is greater than (2*8=)16/2, so reduce
> > the barrier rating by 1. The armor jacket reduces the power level to minimum
> > (2S) and now you may resist the damage.
>
> This is all true, but remember that you're just barely equal (at this
> point) to 1/2 the adjusted barrier rating. (base power of AK98 = 8.)
>
> > So the result is a barrier which is weakened one point and a good chance to
> > dodge the burst.
It would seem sensible that if you use armour from a barrier spell to
dodge what you are doing is delflecting the bullets off the spell, so
you take no damage but the barrier gets hit. Not strict FASA, but
then armour making dodging easier is silly anyway so more 'sensible'.

> > If you now think of a armor jacket with gel packs (which make the armor
> > jacket count as hardened armor) you have a barrier which is reduced by one
> > and a burst which bounces off the armor jacket. Looks like the barrier spells
> > aren't as weak as many people think, eh ?
> >
> Indeed, indeed. :-) If an initiate were to put up a level 11 barrier
> spell, the only things to get throughwould be explosives, sniper rifles,
> and cannons, just about.
>
It is this trick that makes Dragons and similar so fearsome, you just
throw up a few barrier spells to slow down the heavy ordanance so it
bounces off the armour. Of course gel packs or milspec armour (or on
abanshee for that matter) works just as well.

> > Of course you get some serious problems if someone shoots with full autofire
> > at you as soon as they see that a burst can't reach you:
> >
> > Full Autofire Damage by AK98: 18D
> >
> > This is reduced by 8 for the barrier, which is reduced to 6 by that.
> >
>
> Nope. To the barrier, the autofire doesn't matter. :) The barrier would only
> only be reduced by 1. (actually, in ANY case, even if the guy was using
> a Panther cannon which would HAVE a power rating of 18 against the
> barrier.)
>
but as the panther is only SS ie 1 attack that is all it does, Laugh,
laugh.

> > the remaining 10D can't be stopped completely by the armor jacket (5/3),
> > so you have a 5D to roll dice against. If you take at least a moderate wound
> > your armor jacket is damaged, which leaves the following results:
> >
> > A barrier rating 6, a damaged armor jacket (4/2) and an awfully bleeding
> > magician (if the guy with the AK98 was worth his nuyen)... not very
> > pleasant ! So be careful - the barrier helps a lot, but you gotta be very
> > careful not to overestimate its power, because it doesn't help very much
> > against foes who REALLY want to kick your ass. ;-)
>
>
> Actually, they help a LOT. Against a Level 9 barrier the guy with the
> AK98 woulda been completely outta luck. He woulda been wasting lead.
>
one of the primary reasons i am so against the standard barrier
spells , beacause at really high force ratings they are
invulnerability, a full barrier stops firearms, grenades, and
damaging manipulations, Shield the combat spells and you have
initiated mage = tank! lobbing area affect magic the other way
against which only enemy initates stand a fair chance. (guess who you
tell the merc to shoot first).

> DMK
>
Mark
Message no. 15
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells...
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 15:03:01 -0400
On Fri, 21 Jul 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> > You have a problem here: to quote from the Shadowrun II softcover, page 98:
> > (Copyright FASA) "Always use the base Power Rating of the round,
> > unmodified by burst or full auto fire, for comparison against the
> > barrier rating."
>
> Man - I love you for this quote !!! I will show this one to my GM - thanks !!
> This means that barriers are equal to hardened armor, indeed. The only
> difference is, that they are reduced in power if something penetrates them...

Not quite. Barriers are often damaged even if they are not
penetrated. Say you have a barrier of rating 10 and shoot at it with a
heavy pistol (9M). While the round won't go through, the power level of
the weapon is more than half the barrier's rating, resulting in a 1 point
reduction in barrier rating, so the next time you shoot at it, it will
only have a rating of 9. The rating will keep going down until you start
blowing holes in the barrier.
If, however, the barrier has a rating greater than twice the
total power level of the weapon, all the weapon will ever do is scratch
the paint. You could shoot at it on full auto until your gun melted and
you wouldn't do a thing.
Alternately, if this barrier rating thing is confusing or just
pisses you off, you could use the (slightly different) armor degradation
rules from Fields of Fire, which are designed to be used with hardened or
standard armor.

Marc
Message no. 16
From: Dwayne MacKinnon <910252m@******.ACADIAU.CA>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells...
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 17:11:20 -0300
B
>
> On Fri, 21 Jul 1995, Georg Greve wrote:
>
>>> You have a problem here: to quote from the Shadowrun II softcover, page 98:
>>> (Copyright FASA) "Always use the base Power Rating of the round,
>>> unmodified by burst or full auto fire, for comparison against the
>>> barrier rating."
>>
>> Man - I love you for this quote !!! I will show this one to my GM - thanks !!
>> This means that barriers are equal to hardened armor, indeed. The only
>> difference is, that they are reduced in power if something penetrates them...
>
> Not quite. Barriers are often damaged even if they are not
> penetrated. Say you have a barrier of rating 10 and shoot at it with a
> heavy pistol (9M). While the round won't go through, the power level of
> the weapon is more than half the barrier's rating, resulting in a 1 point
> reduction in barrier rating, so the next time you shoot at it, it will
> only have a rating of 9. The rating will keep going down until you start
> blowing holes in the barrier.

Ah. I see where you're coming with this.. Another quote from the
softcover, ladies and germs, copyright FASA: "If, however, the Barrier
Rating exceeds the Power of the attack, the attack cannot penetrate and
is stopped cold. Note, however, that this may still damage the barrier by
reducing its rating." This is from the "Firing Through" section on
Barriers in the softcover.
The thing that isn't mentioned in this section but is down below,
is that Barriers have twice their normal rating vs. firearms. So this
is how it works: if the weapon's power is less than the barrier rating
the round does not get through the attack does not get through and the barrier
and the barrier is undamaged.
If the weapon has a power >= the barrier rating, but less than (2 *
barrier rating) the shot goes through and causes one point of barrier
degradation on the way by.
Finally, if the weapon has a power greater than twice the Barrier
Rating: for every increment = to the barrier rating that the weapon is
greater, the barrier is reduced by one and a half meter hole is opened up.

Example: Barrier Rating 6

Walther Palm Pistol: Won't even scartch it. (Power 4.)

Defiance T-250: Wear it down slowly (Power 10)

Panther Cannon: Open up a 1 meter hole and reduce the (adjusted) barrier
rating by 2. (On the second shot, actually. The first shot would only
be a .5 meter hole, reduce by 1, but after that... watch out!!)

DMK

--
Dwayne MacKinnon My opinions are my own, never
910252m@******.acadiau.ca those of my employer.
Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells...
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 11:07:40 +0200
> Not quite. Barriers are often damaged even if they are not
>penetrated. Say you have a barrier of rating 10 and shoot at it with a
>heavy pistol (9M). While the round won't go through, the power level of
>the weapon is more than half the barrier's rating, resulting in a 1 point
>reduction in barrier rating, so the next time you shoot at it, it will
>only have a rating of 9. The rating will keep going down until you start
>blowing holes in the barrier.

You're right, except for a slight technicality: double the Barrier Rating
against firearms. You heavy pistol would be less than half the BR, so it
doesn't even reduce the Barrier Rating -- it may dent or scratch the
barrier, but that's it :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
En ik zeg je weer niet wat ik nu denk dat ik je eigenlijk zeggen wil...
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 18
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells...
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 16:23:16 +0200
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 16:23:13 +0200 (MET DST)

> > > So your example would be:
> > >
> > > Guy with Force 8 barrier spell and Armor Jacket gets a burst from an
> > > AK98:
> > >
> > > Burst damage by AK98: 11S
> > >
> >
> > You have a problem here: to quote from the Shadowrun II softcover, page 98:
> > (Copyright FASA) "Always use the base Power Rating of the round,
> > unmodified by burst or full auto fire, for comparison against the
> > barrier rating."
> >
> Which is why you have to treat a burst as 3 single bullets.

But only if the bullets do damage the barrier at all - if the barrier rating
is higher than the base rating of the bullets they don't even lower the barrier
rating and they don't penetrate - lucky day for the magician !

Bye...
Georg

P.S. I think I read somewhere that APDS-Ammo does LESS damage to the BARRIER,
because it is designed to go through (like explosive ammo is designed to
do damage to the barrier), but I can't remember where I read that - can you
help me ?

--
Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE
Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de
Message no. 19
From: Ioannis Pantelidis <jpante@******.COMPULINK.GR>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells...
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 16:54:03 +0300
On Mon, 24 Jul 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 16:23:13 +0200 (MET DST)
>
> > > > So your example would be:
> > > >
> > > > Guy with Force 8 barrier spell and Armor Jacket gets a burst from an
> > > > AK98:
> > > >
> > > > Burst damage by AK98: 11S
> > > >
> > >
> > > You have a problem here: to quote from the Shadowrun II softcover, page 98:
> > > (Copyright FASA) "Always use the base Power Rating of the round,
> > > unmodified by burst or full auto fire, for comparison against the
> > > barrier rating."
> > >
> > Which is why you have to treat a burst as 3 single bullets.
>
> But only if the bullets do damage the barrier at all - if the barrier rating
> is higher than the base rating of the bullets they don't even lower the barrier
> rating and they don't penetrate - lucky day for the magician !
>
> Bye...
> Georg
>
> P.S. I think I read somewhere that APDS-Ammo does LESS damage to the BARRIER,
> because it is designed to go through (like explosive ammo is designed to
> do damage to the barrier), but I can't remember where I read that - can you
> help me ?
>
> --
> Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE
> Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de
ear george the apds ammo oes more amage to to a barrier as it is in
rules because it half the rating of the barrier when you use apds.
also in reality apds ammo does more amage to an armor because it pass it
with an extreme velocity and because of the pressure of the gases it
breaks more part of the armour (have you ever see a tank to be estroyed
by an apds ammo i? it desfends like an aple pie. )

:)
explosive ammo ddestroyes the barrier but it oes not pass so easily
also if your barrier is 8 and the weapon does damage 8M then it does not
pass the armor.
Message no. 20
From: Wynd <jeltzz@*******.com.au>
Subject: Barrier Spells
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 13:33:49 +1000
I have noticed that the barrier spells from the dif. source books
have inconsistent ranges, some are Limited, others LOS. Is this an
oversight? or are they actually meant to be like this?


--
Wynd
<jeltzz@*******.com.au>
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~jeltzz

"For I am known, | "The Ravens took flight,
As the Fallen One, | and the sky, just moments Winter's white
He-Who-Walks-Alone, | turned black, as if night had descended"
Under Star, Moon and Sun." | - Flight of the Ravens
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Message no. 21
From: VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PRONE <downsa@******.EDU>
Subject: Barrier spells
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:36:59 EST
hello all,
a question about barrier spells. a mage throws up a barrier spell and
is attacked by physical means (guns, arrows, whatever). does the barrier
degrade as a actual barrier upon being struck by something powerful, or not?

Aaron
Message no. 22
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Barrier spells
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:21:52 -0500
You wrote:
> hello all,
> a question about barrier spells. a mage throws up a barrier spell and
> is attacked by physical means (guns, arrows, whatever). does the barrier
> degrade as a actual barrier upon being struck by something powerful, or not?
Don't see why it shouldn't. The rules don't call for an exception.

losthalo
Message no. 23
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Barrier spells
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:06:41 -0600
VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PRONE wrote:
|
| hello all,
| a question about barrier spells. a mage throws up a barrier spell and
| is attacked by physical means (guns, arrows, whatever). does the barrier
| degrade as a actual barrier upon being struck by something powerful, or not?

You've stumbled onto one of the "Great Debates". Take the easy way
out and do it however you want :) A couple of options are:

Barrier Spells do degrade as per the rules, disappating when they're
reduced to zero.

Ditto, but they refresh on the caster's next action (assuming he's
sustaining it, if it's quickened at the end of the combat turn).

Ditto, but they refresh at the end of the phase.

Barrier Spells don't degrade.

Have Fun, Buy Shadowrun Products (or is that the other way around?),
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Observe your co-worker's interaction with the computer mouse. If he
is using it to manipulate the cursor, he's human. If he's using it
as a foot pedal, he's your boss.
Message no. 24
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Barrier spells
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:53:34 -0700
---VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PRONE wrote:
>
> hello all,
> a question about barrier spells. a mage throws up a barrier
spell and
> is attacked by physical means (guns, arrows, whatever). does the
barrier
> degrade as a actual barrier upon being struck by something powerful,
or not?

I know opinions and GM rulings vary greatly on this.

In may game I've said yes, barrier ratings for spells degrade like
their mundane counterparts, the spell winks out of existence when it
reaches zero. However, I can't picture big holes being opened in the
spell, so I rule for every 1/2 meter opening that would be ripped in a
mundane barrier, another point of barrier rating degrades off the
spell.

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 25
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Barrier spells
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:51:38 +0100
VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PR said on 13:36/ 7 Jul 97...

> a question about barrier spells. a mage throws up a barrier spell and
> is attacked by physical means (guns, arrows, whatever). does the barrier
> degrade as a actual barrier upon being struck by something powerful, or not?

That's been a question that's been debated many times before... [Steve,
how about slipping a ruling about that into the Barrier spell description
in SR3?]

AFAIK there is no definitive rule about this anywhere, so it's a matter of
what the GM feels is best for game balance and how it appears to work. I
myself don't let it degrade, on the basis that a field of magical energy
would quickly seal holes made in it, unlike a brick wall for example.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 26
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Barrier spells
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:41:33 +0000
>
> AFAIK there is no definitive rule about this anywhere, so it's a matter of
> what the GM feels is best for game balance and how it appears to work. I
> myself don't let it degrade, on the basis that a field of magical energy
> would quickly seal holes made in it, unlike a brick wall for example.
>
Yes.. but dosen't that magical energy come from the mage? Wouldn't it
be a further drain on them for there spell to replenish itself? Just
a thought...

*wave*

Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca

Being in love... What a trip...
Message no. 27
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Barrier Spells
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:16:44 -0400
Okay, I know this has been discussed in the past, but I am hoping I don't
get thwapped too hard for asking this. :)

I can't seem to find the passage in SR2 that states that barrier spells
refresh on every action the casting mage has. Also, I know there has been
some controversy over how these rules should be interpreted.

Can someone help me out so I can make a house rule about this before it
comes up in my campaign (as I am sure it will soon enough)?

Thanks!

Justin :)
Message no. 28
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:13:52 +0100
Justin Pinnow said on 3:16/31 Jul 97...

> I can't seem to find the passage in SR2 that states that barrier spells
> refresh on every action the casting mage has. Also, I know there has been
> some controversy over how these rules should be interpreted.

AFAIK there is no such passage, which is exactly what caused the
controversy...

> Can someone help me out so I can make a house rule about this before it
> comes up in my campaign (as I am sure it will soon enough)?

You're going to have to make up a house rule for this, I think. You have
the option of letting them refresh at a given time (on each of the
caster's actions, at the end of each turn, or whenever you want them to),
or you can rule that they degrade like normal barriers. The former makes
them more powerful, because in effect you have a self-sealing wall...

How about this: Barrier spells can be restored to their full rating by the
caster spending a Complex Action to do this. No test is required, only
complete concentration on the spell. This would count as an exclusive
activity (except if the Barrier spell itself is exclusive).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And you can try and you just might...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 29
From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:37:36 +1000
At 12:13 31/07/97 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>Justin Pinnow said on 3:16/31 Jul 97...
>
>> I can't seem to find the passage in SR2 that states that barrier spells
>> refresh on every action the casting mage has. Also, I know there has been
>> some controversy over how these rules should be interpreted.
>
>AFAIK there is no such passage, which is exactly what caused the
>controversy...
>
>> Can someone help me out so I can make a house rule about this before it
>> comes up in my campaign (as I am sure it will soon enough)?

BBB Page 109, right column, fourth paragraph down:
'Spells whose Barrier Rating (Force) drops to 0 are knocked down. If the
spell is not knocked to 0, it automatically rebuilds itself during the
casting magician's next action.'


Chris

_______________________________________________________________
Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 30
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:28:36 -0400
> From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
> Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 10:37 AM
>
> At 12:13 31/07/97 +0100, Gurth wrote:
> >Justin Pinnow said on 3:16/31 Jul 97...

> >> I can't seem to find the passage in SR2 that states that barrier
spells
> >> refresh on every action the casting mage has. Also, I know there has
been
> >> some controversy over how these rules should be interpreted.

> >AFAIK there is no such passage, which is exactly what caused the
> >controversy...

> >> Can someone help me out so I can make a house rule about this before
it
> >> comes up in my campaign (as I am sure it will soon enough)?

> BBB Page 109, right column, fourth paragraph down:
> 'Spells whose Barrier Rating (Force) drops to 0 are knocked down. If the
> spell is not knocked to 0, it automatically rebuilds itself during the
> casting magician's next action.'

Ah, thank you!!! I KNEW there was something somewhere, but I couldn't find
it in any of the magic rules....because they put it in the Hitting Walls
section (under Combat). Thanks! That makes things easier. :)

Given this statement, would anyone still require the caster to spend an
action in order to rebuild the spell, or would you go with the automatic
rebuilding of the spell? It does seem powerful to let the spell rebuild
itself...


> Chris

Justin :)
Message no. 31
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:38:39 -0500
At 12:28 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Justin wrote:
>Given this statement, would anyone still require the caster to spend an
>action in order to rebuild the spell, or would you go with the automatic
>rebuilding of the spell? It does seem powerful to let the spell rebuild
>itself...

I'd let it automatically rebuild as per the rules. He'll still either have
to have the spell locked or be sustaining it so he'll either be groundable
or at a +2 TN mod to do anything. Plus, if you break the barrier down
before his action comes up (easily achievable since most mages have rather
low Initiative) then you don't have to worry about it regenerating.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 32
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:34:02 -0600
Chris Maxfield wrote:
|
| BBB Page 109, right column, fourth paragraph down:
| 'Spells whose Barrier Rating (Force) drops to 0 are knocked down. If the
| spell is not knocked to 0, it automatically rebuilds itself during the
| casting magician's next action.'

So Gurth, how come you didn't know about this? ;)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 33
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:41:33 +0100
|
|Chris Maxfield wrote:
||
|| BBB Page 109, right column, fourth paragraph down:
|| 'Spells whose Barrier Rating (Force) drops to 0 are knocked down. If the
|| spell is not knocked to 0, it automatically rebuilds itself during the
|| casting magician's next action.'
|
|So Gurth, how come you didn't know about this? ;)

I think he's losing his touch...
ANy more serious slips like this, and he might lose his mantle as Unofficial
shadowrun guru.....

>*tut*<>*tut*<>*tut*<

;)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 34
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:40:08 -0700
Spike wrote:
> || BBB Page 109, right column, fourth paragraph down:
> |So Gurth, how come you didn't know about this? ;)
>
> I think he's losing his touch...
> ANy more serious slips like this, and he might lose his mantle as
> Unofficial
> shadowrun guru.....

It's either another sign of impending Doom, or Gurth ol boy has been
called to follow Woodchuck. ;)

> >*tut*<>*tut*<>*tut*<
>
> ;)

Zwoot!

--

Dvixen Code-word : Weevil-chuck. dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
First High Priest of the Church of the Squooshy Ball.
Been there, done that, got the tshirt, wore it out. Now what do I wear?
Message no. 35
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:57:50 +0100
Chris Maxfield said on 0:37/ 1 Aug 97...

> BBB Page 109, right column, fourth paragraph down:
> 'Spells whose Barrier Rating (Force) drops to 0 are knocked down. If the
> spell is not knocked to 0, it automatically rebuilds itself during the
> casting magician's next action.'

Yep, it's in the SRII rules... However, it's in the rules governing what
happens when a vehicle hits a magical barrier; there's no reason why it
shouldn't apply in other situations as well, but it would be nice if this
kind of rule were to be incorporated into either the description of the
Barrier spell or the barrier rules (preferably into both...).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zie, de pyromaan schijnt door de bomen.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 36
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:57:50 +0100
Justin Pinnow said on 12:28/31 Jul 97...

> Given this statement, would anyone still require the caster to spend an
> action in order to rebuild the spell, or would you go with the automatic
> rebuilding of the spell? It does seem powerful to let the spell rebuild
> itself...

It does appear very powerful to let it rebuild itself automatically,
though this is how it's written in the book. I myself would prefer that
either the caster has to spend an action, or it rebuilds at, say, one
point per turn.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zie, de pyromaan schijnt door de bomen.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 37
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:57:50 +0100
Dvixen said on 22:40/31 Jul 97...

> It's either another sign of impending Doom, or Gurth ol boy has been
> called to follow Woodchuck. ;)

It must be a sign of impending Doom... Can't see myself following a
woodchuck (which, for some reason, I always associate with birds...)
although perhaps it's a bit of Kumquat syndrome in that I just don't feel
the need to write lots of replies ATM, especially to difficult questions.

Or maybe I should simply try to get a good night's sleep one of these
days :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zie, de pyromaan schijnt door de bomen.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 38
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:57:50 +0100
David Buehrer said on 13:34/31 Jul 97...

> So Gurth, how come you didn't know about this? ;)

Because someone at FASA put it into the vehicle rules instead of the
barrier or magic rules?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zie, de pyromaan schijnt door de bomen.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 39
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:57:50 +0100
Spike said on 20:41/31 Jul 97...

> I think he's losing his touch...
> ANy more serious slips like this, and he might lose his mantle as Unofficial
> shadowrun guru.....

It's a lot harder to keep track of all these rules than it is to bitch
about people not formatting their posts right or using MS software...

:)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zie, de pyromaan schijnt door de bomen.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 40
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:10:43 +0100
|
|Spike said on 20:41/31 Jul 97...
|
|> I think he's losing his touch...
|> ANy more serious slips like this, and he might lose his mantle as Unofficial
|> shadowrun guru.....
|
|It's a lot harder to keep track of all these rules than it is to bitch
|about people not formatting their posts right or using MS software...
|
|:)

OK, so I have an easy job.....
No arguments there then....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 41
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:17:56 -0400
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Date: Friday, August 01, 1997 7:57 AM

> Justin Pinnow said on 12:28/31 Jul 97...

> > Given this statement, would anyone still require the caster to spend an
> > action in order to rebuild the spell, or would you go with the
automatic
> > rebuilding of the spell? It does seem powerful to let the spell
rebuild
> > itself...

> It does appear very powerful to let it rebuild itself automatically,
> though this is how it's written in the book. I myself would prefer that
> either the caster has to spend an action, or it rebuilds at, say, one
> point per turn.

Or how about having the barrier rebuild itself considered an exclusive
activity? That way, if the magician doesn't perform any other magical
activity on his action, it will rebuild fully, but if he casts a spell or
whatever, it just stays the way it is until his next action...etc.

> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

Justin :)
Message no. 42
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 20:28:05 +0100
Justin Pinnow said on 11:17/ 1 Aug 97...

> Or how about having the barrier rebuild itself considered an exclusive
> activity? That way, if the magician doesn't perform any other magical
> activity on his action, it will rebuild fully, but if he casts a spell or
> whatever, it just stays the way it is until his next action...etc.

We'll have a whole load of options for refreshing of barrier spells if we
keep this up :) I do think it needs to be something else than a simple
"restores to full rating" thing; it's something I've never liked about the
regerenation rules, and with barriers I get the same feeling that it
should be a bit less powerful and/or easy.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zie, de pyromaan schijnt door de bomen.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 43
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:34:55 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-01 07:02:17 EDT, you write:

> It does appear very powerful to let it rebuild itself automatically,
> though this is how it's written in the book. I myself would prefer that
> either the caster has to spend an action, or it rebuilds at, say, one
> point per turn.

Gods why? I mean, if it were a permanent spell that you were slapping up in
the doorway of your home, I might be able to see it, but all the Barrier
spells are sustained, not designed for a LONG life span, just a powerful one.
I'd say that the mage, since by sustaining the spell he's already interacting
with it, would have to take an additional modifier to their actions as if
they were sustaining another spell(ie, I've got Blade Barrier up in melee
combat, my opponent brings down the force rating of my barrier, so for it to
rebuild, on my next action I'd have a +4 TN as if maintaining two spells,
instead of +2 as normal).

Whaddaya think?

Wolfstar
Message no. 44
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:36:07 -0400
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Date: Friday, August 01, 1997 3:28 PM
>
> Justin Pinnow said on 11:17/ 1 Aug 97...
>
> > Or how about having the barrier rebuild itself considered an exclusive
> > activity? That way, if the magician doesn't perform any other magical
> > activity on his action, it will rebuild fully, but if he casts a spell
or
> > whatever, it just stays the way it is until his next action...etc.

> We'll have a whole load of options for refreshing of barrier spells if we
> keep this up :) I do think it needs to be something else than a simple

Heh :)

> "restores to full rating" thing; it's something I've never liked about
the
> regerenation rules, and with barriers I get the same feeling that it
> should be a bit less powerful and/or easy.

I don't know, after thinking about it I don't think barrier spells are all
that powerful. I mean a typical (albeit powerful) barrier will have a
barrier rating of 6. That's not too hard to destroy with a bullet or two.
Maybe it's necessary to allow the barrier to refresh on every action the
magician has, or the barrier spell would always go down after taking a
bullet or two.

*shrug*

> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

Justin :)
Message no. 45
From: David Fayes y Angel Ramos <hansa@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:57:05 -0400
At 12:28 PM 31/07/1997 -0400, Justin wrote:
>>
>Given this statement, would anyone still require the caster to spend an
>action in order to rebuild the spell, or would you go with the automatic
>rebuilding of the spell? It does seem powerful to let the spell rebuild
>itself...

It a sustained spell so I think as long as the caster is sustaining it the
automatic rebuilding is .... automatic


The elven mage
Message no. 46
From: Lorden <westln@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:48:06 -0400
One thing to think about is that the barrier may not go down
from bullets. While a car crashing though a spell barrier or any
barrier might take down the entire barrier, a bullet may only
open up a small hole. Hence the barrier doesn't go down from one
bullet.

--
Nigel westln@***.edu
AKA C. Yossarrian, UPAC Projectionist
AKA Lorden
Speaking for myself, and no one else.
Message no. 47
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:51:46 -0400
> From: Lorden <westln@***.EDU>
> Date: Friday, August 01, 1997 4:48 PM

> One thing to think about is that the barrier may not go down
> from bullets. While a car crashing though a spell barrier or any
> barrier might take down the entire barrier, a bullet may only
> open up a small hole. Hence the barrier doesn't go down from one
> bullet.

If the barrier doesn't block bullets, for example, bullets won't damage it
at all...they will just pass right through as if the barrier wasn't there.
For the standard Barrier spell, however, if the bullet does enough damage
to reduce the barrier to a rating of 0, the barrier goes down completely.
It doesn't just open a small hole in the barrier.

> --
> Nigel westln@***.edu

Justin :)
Message no. 48
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 18:57:18 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-31 03:19:18 EDT, vanyel@*******.NET (Justin Pinnow)
writes:

>
> I can't seem to find the passage in SR2 that states that barrier spells
> refresh on every action the casting mage has. Also, I know there has been
> some controversy over how these rules should be interpreted.

I am not quite sure what you mean by "every action". I know that Barrier
spells are restored in any following action they are -NOT- engaged in some
fashion. I know of someone who made a House Rule that paralleled the old
Matrix Rules for restraining Node Activities. Once the mage attacked the
Barrier, and it did all its die rolls, the mage in question kept a number of
Magic Pool restricted equal to the Barrier's New/Subjective Rating to keep it
from restoring itself. The reason he did this is because of the need to
bring his attention elsewhere, but as he had spent some karma on trying to
bring the Barrier down in the first place, he didn't want to lose the ground
he had initially gained.

I know that if you leave a Spirit/Elemental alone after combat, it restores 1
box on its condition monitor for every minute of time that goes by.

> Can someone help me out so I can make a house rule about this before it
> comes up in my campaign (as I am sure it will soon enough)?

Did that help?

> Thanks!
> Justin :)
Message no. 49
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 12:15:53 +0100
George Metz said on 14:34/ 1 Aug 97...

> I'd say that the mage, since by sustaining the spell he's already interacting
> with it, would have to take an additional modifier to their actions as if
> they were sustaining another spell(ie, I've got Blade Barrier up in melee
> combat, my opponent brings down the force rating of my barrier, so for it to
> rebuild, on my next action I'd have a +4 TN as if maintaining two spells,
> instead of +2 as normal).

At which times would you have them get this additional modifier? At all
times when sustaining a Barrier spell, or only when it is rebuilding
itself?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zie, de pyromaan schijnt door de bomen.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 50
From: Kim Christiansen <kimc@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 14:15:48 +0100
Well, what about a Bullet barrier set into a spell lock, what blows it down
(a single bullet? a burst?) and when does it refresh after it is blown down?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Message no. 51
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 18:10:31 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-02 06:14:35 EDT, you write:

> > I'd say that the mage, since by sustaining the spell he's already
> interacting
> > with it, would have to take an additional modifier to their actions as
if
> > they were sustaining another spell(ie, I've got Blade Barrier up in
melee
> > combat, my opponent brings down the force rating of my barrier, so for
it
> to
> > rebuild, on my next action I'd have a +4 TN as if maintaining two
spells,
> > instead of +2 as normal).
>
> At which times would you have them get this additional modifier? At all
> times when sustaining a Barrier spell, or only when it is rebuilding
> itself?

Only when rebuilding is what I had in mind, since otherwise it would put
barrier spells at a distinct disadvantage, and wouldn't have an effect on the
rebuild, which is what you want to restrict.

Wolfstar
Message no. 52
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 19:29:38 -0400
> From: Kim Christiansen <kimc@**********.COM>
> Date: Saturday, August 02, 1997 9:15 AM

> Well, what about a Bullet barrier set into a spell lock, what blows it
down
> (a single bullet? a burst?) and when does it refresh after it is blown
down?
> Inquiring minds want to know.

This has been subject to opinions as well. Some say it refreshes on the
magician's action like all other barrier spells. Others say you must turn
it off then back on (two simple actions total to do that) for the barrier
to refresh. Of course, there's a slight instant there where you aren't
covered by a barrier at all...

Justin :)
Message no. 53
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:59:10 +0000
> > Well, what about a Bullet barrier set into a spell lock, what blows it
> down
> > (a single bullet? a burst?) and when does it refresh after it is blown
> down?
> > Inquiring minds want to know.
>
> This has been subject to opinions as well. Some say it refreshes on the
> magician's action like all other barrier spells. Others say you must turn
> it off then back on (two simple actions total to do that) for the barrier
> to refresh. Of course, there's a slight instant there where you aren't
> covered by a barrier at all...
>
I'd say it works like this.. :

The barrier looses its rating as normal. (-1 rating per firearms
attack power greater than the barrier's rating.). If the barrier
reaches rating 0 it is destroyed. Its rating is reset to the original
value every caster's action, unless it's destroyed.

Wether it is destroyed affects the spell lock can be argued. I do not
have an opinion on that.

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 54
From: Chuck Stevens <harmonix@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:38:18 -0700
----------
> From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
> Date: Saturday, August 02, 1997 7:59 PM
>
> > > Well, what about a Bullet barrier set into a spell lock, what blows
it
> > down
> > > (a single bullet? a burst?) and when does it refresh after it is
blown
> > down?
> > > Inquiring minds want to know.
> >
> > This has been subject to opinions as well. Some say it refreshes on
the
> > magician's action like all other barrier spells. Others say you must
turn
> > it off then back on (two simple actions total to do that) for the
barrier
> > to refresh. Of course, there's a slight instant there where you aren't
> > covered by a barrier at all...
> >
> I'd say it works like this.. :
>
> The barrier looses its rating as normal. (-1 rating per firearms
> attack power greater than the barrier's rating.). If the barrier
> reaches rating 0 it is destroyed. Its rating is reset to the original
> value every caster's action, unless it's destroyed.
>
> Wether it is destroyed affects the spell lock can be argued. I do not
> have an opinion on that.
>

I do. Let me share it with you. :)
I'd say, if the barrier is destroyed, the spell lock goes inert. The mage
must re-cast the spell into the lock to get it back. Seems like a good way
to keep those rampant bullet barriers in check, and re-casting the spell
and rebonding the lock are easy enough to do.

------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Stevens
harmonix@**.net

"If your god is so omnipotent,
why does he need my money?"
- Salmoneus
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 55
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Barrier Spells
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 05:51:55 -0400
Okay, this is embarrasing, but I just realized upon reading the
descriptions of several Barrier-type spells, that I don't know how they
spells really work. :)

Let's deal with the standard Barrier spell first, to keep things basic.
Okay, so you only need one success (TN 6) to create a barrier with a rating
equal to the Force of the Barrier spell. Okay. That makes sense. But,
let's say that the mage manages to whip up a Force 6 Barrier. Do the extra
successes do anything? I don't think they do, but I thought I would ask
anyway. :)

Okay, now here's the fun part: what are the mechanics for stopping attacks
through the barrier? Say it's a rating 6 barrier. If the power level of
the weapon firing through (or striking, etc.) the barrier is equal to or
greater than 6, does the barrier crumble? If that's the case, then
barriers are almost worthless unless they are force 10 or greater (to stop
those heavy pistols). Do you use twice the barrier's rating to determine
what it takes to effect it? (i.e. would a rating 6 barrier be impervious
to anything lower than a power of 12?) I think this is what hardened armor
is, but I am not sure.

Also, why doesn't the Barrier spell stop Manipulation spells? Standard
barriers do, so I would figure that a magically created barrier would too.
In fact, I would feel that both the Barrier spell and the Mana Barrier (or
even the Spell Barrier) spells would stop Manipulation spells.

Here's another question (don't run away!): When casting a Personal Barrier
spell (of any kind), does this mean the barrier forms around your aura
(thus only protecting the caster), or does it automatically center on the
caster, but still keep the standard area of effect?

Is it safe to assume that all magically created barrier spells work both
ways at all times? (i.e. a bullet barrier works equally well regardless of
where the bullet originates from)

The wording of the Mana Barrier spell is confusing: is the barrier rating
equal to the force of the spell cast, or 1/2 force? Does a spell cast
across a Mana Barrier reduce the it's barrier rating? Or is the barrier
rating of the spell simply added to all TNs for casting a spell across it,
but it stays at full power while sustained?

Gee, I think that's about all the questions I can come up with at the
moment. Barriers really shouldn't be this difficult. :)

Justin :)
Message no. 56
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:04:51 -0500
At 03-Aug-97 wrote Justin Pinnow:


>Let's deal with the standard Barrier spell first, to keep things basic.
>Okay, so you only need one success (TN 6) to create a barrier with a rating
>equal to the Force of the Barrier spell. Okay. That makes sense. But,
>let's say that the mage manages to whip up a Force 6 Barrier. Do the extra
>successes do anything? I don't think they do, but I thought I would ask
>anyway. :)

BTB you are right.
For the extra successes folloeing idea spings to my mind:
After following the barrier and the instant renewal of barriers thread I would
say the extra successes are the number of how many times the barrier
will refresh itself after damaging to it had occured.
Sustained barriers of curse.

>Okay, now here's the fun part: what are the mechanics for stopping attacks
>through the barrier? Say it's a rating 6 barrier. If the power level of
>the weapon firing through (or striking, etc.) the barrier is equal to or
>greater than 6, does the barrier crumble? If that's the case, then
>barriers are almost worthless unless they are force 10 or greater (to stop
>those heavy pistols). Do you use twice the barrier's rating to determine
>what it takes to effect it? (i.e. would a rating 6 barrier be impervious
>to anything lower than a power of 12?) I think this is what hardened armor
>is, but I am not sure.

Take the six as barrierrating. The barrier gets damaged like all other
barriers according to the rules barrier minus weaponpower if the result is
less than zero, then that will be lost from the rating.
If the barrier is damaged it will renew its self at the next casters action.
I would not use the double barrier thing from the hardend armor rules,
mainly because its an magicial barrier and it reacts different to physical
things then a material barrier.Thats includes AP ammo too, they dont get
the AP bonus for the same reason.

>Also, why doesn't the Barrier spell stop Manipulation spells? Standard
>barriers do, so I would figure that a magically created barrier would too.
>In fact, I would feel that both the Barrier spell and the Mana Barrier (or
>even the Spell Barrier) spells would stop Manipulation spells.

Barrier should do stop manipulation, because its an physical thats
traveeling trough the real world. For this reason manabarrier will not
effect it same goes for spellbarrier unless the manipulationspells
entrance point to the physical plane lays behind the spellbarrier.

>Here's another question (don't run away!): When casting a Personal Barrier
>spell (of any kind), does this mean the barrier forms around your aura
>(thus only protecting the caster), or does it automatically center on the
>caster, but still keep the standard area of effect?

Personal, it says all.

>Is it safe to assume that all magically created barrier spells work both
>ways at all times? (i.e. a bullet barrier works equally well regardless of
>where the bullet originates from)

IMHO, both directions. Since its not stated that a magical barrier is
penetrable from the inside. But this would be a good spell to research on.

>The wording of the Mana Barrier spell is confusing: is the barrier rating
>equal to the force of the spell cast, or 1/2 force? Does a spell cast
>across a Mana Barrier reduce the it's barrier rating? Or is the barrier
>rating of the spell simply added to all TNs for casting a spell across it,
>but it stays at full power while sustained?

The barrier rating is at full force against attacks from living things.
The halve rating is the T# penalty for spells casted through the mana-
barrier.


--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 57
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:23:41 -0700
---Gurth wrote:
>
>
> It does appear very powerful to let it rebuild itself automatically,
> though this is how it's written in the book. I myself would prefer
that
> either the caster has to spend an action, or it rebuilds at, say, one
> point per turn.

I'm in the camp of expending at least a simple action to regenerate
the barrier. I base this off the description for healing
spirits/elementals in the Grimmy. It's stated that by sacrificing a
service, a controlling magician may heal all damage sustained by a
spirit.

To me, it's almost like the magician uses the service to order the
spirit/elememtal to heal itself (though I guess it could be debated
whether or not sacrificing a service in this way takes an action) . At
any rate, I see much the same thing happening when a barrier is
regenerated.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're being held up by a stim patch, Loki's almost a pile of ashes
thanks to that fire elemental, and we've got the Baron running around
screaming assassins...assassins...oh eek, assassins!"
--> Caric to Ook during the Harlequin Campaign

_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 58
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:23:39 +0100
Justin Pinnow said on 5:51/ 3 Aug 97...

> Let's deal with the standard Barrier spell first, to keep things basic.
> Okay, so you only need one success (TN 6) to create a barrier with a rating
> equal to the Force of the Barrier spell. Okay. That makes sense. But,
> let's say that the mage manages to whip up a Force 6 Barrier. Do the extra
> successes do anything? I don't think they do, but I thought I would ask
> anyway. :)

Unfortunately, successes don't do anything for the barrier. Having them
add to the Barrier Rating in some way might be a good move, as it would
get players to put some Magic Pool into the actual casting so they get
more than one success.

> Okay, now here's the fun part: what are the mechanics for stopping attacks
> through the barrier? Say it's a rating 6 barrier. If the power level of
> the weapon firing through (or striking, etc.) the barrier is equal to or
> greater than 6, does the barrier crumble? If that's the case, then
> barriers are almost worthless unless they are force 10 or greater (to stop
> those heavy pistols). Do you use twice the barrier's rating to determine
> what it takes to effect it? (i.e. would a rating 6 barrier be impervious
> to anything lower than a power of 12?) I think this is what hardened armor
> is, but I am not sure.

Treat it just like an ordinary barrier: against firearms, double the
Barrer Rating for determining damage to the barrier (since this is a
self-repairing, magical barrier, I don't think ammo modifiers should
apply) and their normal rating to see if the attack goes through.

The description specifically states they are cumulative with body armor,
so they're not useless -- in effect they're portable armor, and proof
against low-powered attacks.

> Also, why doesn't the Barrier spell stop Manipulation spells? Standard
> barriers do, so I would figure that a magically created barrier would too.
> In fact, I would feel that both the Barrier spell and the Mana Barrier (or
> even the Spell Barrier) spells would stop Manipulation spells.

I have no idea, but it does seem a bit strange to me too.

> Here's another question (don't run away!): When casting a Personal Barrier
> spell (of any kind), does this mean the barrier forms around your aura
> (thus only protecting the caster), or does it automatically center on the
> caster, but still keep the standard area of effect?

I wish this were better explained. I've always assumed it protects only
the caster, and so cannot be an area-effect spell, but it's open to either
explanation.

> Is it safe to assume that all magically created barrier spells work both
> ways at all times? (i.e. a bullet barrier works equally well regardless of
> where the bullet originates from)

Yes.

> The wording of the Mana Barrier spell is confusing: is the barrier rating
> equal to the force of the spell cast, or 1/2 force? Does a spell cast
> across a Mana Barrier reduce the it's barrier rating? Or is the barrier
> rating of the spell simply added to all TNs for casting a spell across it,
> but it stays at full power while sustained?

The way I read it, the 1/2 Force thing is only for determining the TN
modifier for spells cast across it, not for affecting the barrier itself.
My reasoning is that combat spells (unless they're area-effect) only
have a single target: if it's aimed at someone inside the mana barrier,
the barrier doesn't get damaged.
Although OTOH it could be said that the combat spell has to defeat the
mana barrier in astral combat before it can go through *shrug*

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zie, de pyromaan schijnt door de bomen.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 59
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Barrier Spells
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:48:51 -0400
Hiya folks, I have finally sat down and gone through the tedious task of
clarifying exactly how all the different Barrier spells work in my
campaign. A lot of what I wrote was based upon interpretation out of
necessity, but IMO stuck with the spirit of the spells.

The clarifications came out to be a couple of pages long, so I won't post
them here, but I would like some nice volunteers to read them over and tell
me how I could improve upon them and whether I made any glaring rulings
that contradict what the books say, etc.

So, would any of you nice people out there who would like to see Barrier
spells clarified a bit be willing to help me out? If so, please send me a
message via private e-mail (don't see why the listserv needs to bother with
any of this) and I will send them to you. If MS Word 7.0 isn't a good
format for you to receive them in, I will send them as text.

Thanks a lot for your help! I promise to be very careful not to
accidentally send this file to the list like I did with my Psionic rules :(

Justin :)
Message no. 60
From: Chuck Stevens <harmonix@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:28:10 -0700
----------
> From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Barrier Spells
> Date: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 11:48 AM
>
> Hiya folks, I have finally sat down and gone through the tedious task of
> clarifying exactly how all the different Barrier spells work in my
> campaign. A lot of what I wrote was based upon interpretation out of
> necessity, but IMO stuck with the spirit of the spells.
>
> The clarifications came out to be a couple of pages long, so I won't post
> them here, but I would like some nice volunteers to read them over and
tell
> me how I could improve upon them and whether I made any glaring rulings
> that contradict what the books say, etc.
>
> So, would any of you nice people out there who would like to see Barrier
> spells clarified a bit be willing to help me out? If so, please send me
a
> message via private e-mail (don't see why the listserv needs to bother
with
> any of this) and I will send them to you. If MS Word 7.0 isn't a good
> format for you to receive them in, I will send them as text.
>
> Thanks a lot for your help! I promise to be very careful not to
> accidentally send this file to the list like I did with my Psionic rules
:(
>
> Justin :)

Just cut-n-paste it into a message and post the thing!

------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Stevens
harmonix@**.net

"If your god is so omnipotent,
why does he need my money?"
- Salmoneus
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 61
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:04:10 -0400
> From: Chuck Stevens <harmonix@**.NET>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
> Date: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 8:28 PM

> > Hiya folks, I have finally sat down and gone through the tedious task
of
> > clarifying exactly how all the different Barrier spells work in my
> > campaign. A lot of what I wrote was based upon interpretation out of
> > necessity, but IMO stuck with the spirit of the spells.

<Snip>

> Just cut-n-paste it into a message and post the thing!

I don't know. The document is about 3 pages long. What do the rest of you
think about having the Barrier Spell clarification rules that I came up
with cut and paste into an e-mail and sent to the list? I don't want to
offend anyone, nor do I want to force my house rules down anyone's throat.


> ------------------------------------------------------
> Chuck Stevens

Justin :)
Message no. 62
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Barrier Spells
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:43:03 +0100
Justin Pinnow said on 23:04/ 5 Aug 97...

> > Just cut-n-paste it into a message and post the thing!
>
> I don't know. The document is about 3 pages long. What do the rest of you
> think about having the Barrier Spell clarification rules that I came up
> with cut and paste into an e-mail and sent to the list? I don't want to
> offend anyone, nor do I want to force my house rules down anyone's throat.

If you cut & paste a text version into an email and then put something
like "(long message)" in the subject line, I doubt many people will
object. Especially if it's 3 pages or so, which isn't all _that_ long. If
you were to send 30 pages this way, then I guess you'd hear something
about it, but not with 3 pages.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Pleasure is to be insane.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 63
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: barrier spells
Date: Wed Aug 1 21:35:01 2001
Can physical & astral barriers be selective of what they allow through. For example:
A mage puts up an astral barrier but wants to let a spirit come through it, will it open
for the spirit if the mage allows it or does he have to drop it? Does the same thing go
for physical barriers?
Message no. 64
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: barrier spells
Date: Thu Aug 2 01:00:09 2001
STAPOCALYPSE@***.com writes:

> Can physical & astral barriers be selective of what they allow through.
> For example: A mage puts up an astral barrier but wants to let a spirit
> come through it, will it open for the spirit if the mage allows it or does
> he have to drop it? Does the same thing go for physical barriers?

The barrier spells form pure barriers. They stop everything and anything,
including the caster himself.

The exceptions are that Astral Barriers only stop astrally present forms,
and Physical Barriers only stop things larger than a molecule. (Aside: so if
I make a high density plastic bullet from one _huge_ polymer chain, I can
shoot through Physical Barriers? <grin> Actually, single polymer molecules
can get very large indeed, so this isn't entirely unfounded... just
munchkinous...) There are also specialist barrier that only stop certain
things, such as Bullet Barrier, Blast Barrier, Arrow Barrier, etc.

When it comes to spirits, the caster can order the spirit to take the
metaplanar shortcut, and enter by zipping to the metaplanes, and
remanifesting inside/outside the barrier. This, however, costs a Service (p
96 MitS).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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e++>++++$ h- r++>+++ y->+++
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Message no. 65
From: shadowrn@*********.com (sven)
Subject: barrier spells
Date: Thu Aug 2 03:55:26 2001
STAPOCALYPSE@***.com wrote:
>
> Can physical & astral barriers be selective of what they
> allow through. For example: A mage puts up an astral
> barrier but wants to let a spirit come through it, will it
> open for the spirit if the mage allows it or does he have to
> drop it? Does the same thing go for physical barriers?

(IIRC) it used to be like that in SR2 where you have spell barriers,
spirit barriers, ballistic barriers,...
In SR3 however they generalized all of these in either astral barriers
and physical barriers. It surely limited the amount of spells you need
to invest karma to.

I'd say a character could write/create their own specific spell formula
for limited uses of both spells.

Just my thoughts,

-sven ;)
--
Message no. 66
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steadfast)
Subject: barrier spells
Date: Thu Aug 2 04:30:01 2001
And thus spoketh STAPOCALYPSE on the day August 02, 2001 a.d. regarding
barrier spells:

> Can physical & astral barriers be selective of what they allow through.
For example: A mage puts up an astral barrier but wants to let a spirit
come through it, will it open for the spirit if the mage allows it or does
he have to drop it? Does the same thing go for physical barriers?
>

For astral barriers, reread SR3rd Page 174, first column, 'Astral barriers'.
magicusers who outs up a magic barrier can decide to to let other astral
forms to pass at his own distcretion. Note this seems to be meant for
hermetic circles, shamanistic lodges and wards. It is not meant for the
barrier type spell, as the above mentioned text involves a physical
component that is not used for the spells.
So the question wether or not a physical barrier can be made to let others
pass through on the casters discretion, the answer is for both (spells) no.
Well, if MITS does'nt say otherwise...
cheers
Daniel aka
Steadfast
-----------------------------------------------------------
Proud owner of German Baby no. 89
**
Killing is my buisiness, and business is good.
atm....
**
Message no. 67
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: barrier spells
Date: Thu Aug 2 05:00:11 2001
According to Damion Milliken, on Thu, 02 Aug 2001 the word on the street
was...

> The exceptions are that Astral Barriers only stop astrally present forms,
> and Physical Barriers only stop things larger than a molecule. (Aside: so if
> I make a high density plastic bullet from one _huge_ polymer chain, I can
> shoot through Physical Barriers? <grin>

Or what about a neutron star? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 68
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: barrier spells
Date: Thu Aug 2 05:00:14 2001
According to STAPOCALYPSE@***.com, on Thu, 02 Aug 2001 the word on the street was...

> Can physical & astral barriers be selective of what they allow through.
> For example: A mage puts up an astral barrier but wants to let a spirit
> come through it, will it open for the spirit if the mage allows it or does
> he have to drop it? Does the same thing go for physical barriers?

AFAIK, the only way to do this is to use one of the Limited Physical
Barrier spells (or an astral equivalent, if you want to design one
yourself). You could design them with a Very Restricted Target modifier to
only work for a single subject.

However, these work more or less the other way around from what you're
asking about: instead of letting one person get through, they'd let
_everything_ through except the specific target they were designed for.
OTOH, I feel it should be possible to design a Barrier spell that blocks
everything, except one specific person or item.

The main drawback is that you'd have to name the person or item when you're
designing or learning the spell, which limits its flexibility.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Barrier Spells, you may also be interested in:

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These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!