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Message no. 1
From: Ahrain Ahrain_Drigar@*******.com
Subject: Barrier "Strength"?
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 01:58:39 -0400
Unusual question here conserning Physical Barriers.

If a mage erects a barrier, say with a barrier rating of 8, how much weight
could be applied to that barrier before it collapses?

examples of falling rubble, a group of pissed off Spikes, etc.

Would it be a Strength stat equal to the barrier rating? Double because of
hand-to-hand "damage"? Or something all together different?

Now this one will probably be ignored like most my other ones but, hey I
need to be a nuisance from time to time. :)

Ahrain
Message no. 2
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Barrier "Strength"?
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 02:54:10 EDT
In a message dated 4/24/00 12:58:42 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Ahrain_Drigar@*******.com writes:

> If a mage erects a barrier, say with a barrier rating of 8, how much weight
> could be applied to that barrier before it collapses?
>
> examples of falling rubble, a group of pissed off Spikes, etc.
>
> Would it be a Strength stat equal to the barrier rating? Double because of
> hand-to-hand "damage"? Or something all together different?
>
> Now this one will probably be ignored like most my other ones but, hey I
> need to be a nuisance from time to time. :)

rules for Strength vs. Barrier in the game are listed in the main book IIRC.

BUT

The Barrier vs Strength thing I admit to being at a total loss at. I guess,
in theory, you could figure out a type of falling damage for the debris in
question.

An example. Take the weight of the item in question, and find out what
strength attribute at say "Serious" or "Deadly" would be needed to
lift that
singular item (remember, falling debris like a rockslide could be argued as
each rock's individual damage and not figured as a whole, based upon the
combative method for bringing down barriers/magical wards in the game now).

Apply the "Falling Damage" of the item in question as the "damage
rating" to
the barrier. Have the barrier roll a resistance test. Remember to give it
"Hardened Armor" equal to it's rating as well. If the test does not indicate
"D" damage, for a single attack, the the barrier holds.

It is NOT precise, but as a hacked-fast method of trying to see if it would
work, it might suffice.

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-K
-"Just a Bastard"
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"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 3
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Barrier "Strength"?
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:02:47 +0200
According to Ahrain, at 1:58 on 24 Apr 00, the word on the street was...

> If a mage erects a barrier, say with a barrier rating of 8, how much weight
> could be applied to that barrier before it collapses?

Probably the easiest way of doing this is to apply the rules for Strength
and carrying capacity. Based on the Barrier Rating, you can determine the
Strength needed to break through it, so you can use that to figure out how
much weight that same Strength rating can carry, and get an estimate of
the carrying capacity of a Barrier spell.

However, it's up to you to decide whether breaking through a barrier is
equivalent to carrying Strength x 5 kg, Strength x 10 kg, or whatever. I'd
go for Strength x 20 kg, as braking down a wall is not the easiest of work
with your bare hands :)

SR3 pages 124-125 covers breaking through barriers; from those rules, you
need a Strength of 17 or higher when using brute strength to make a half-
meter hole in the Barrier (rating is doubled against melee attacks, and
Strenght must be higher than adjusted rating). Page 274 tells us that the
maximum amount of weight you can carry (not dead-lift) with a Strength
like this is 17 x 20 kg = 340 kg, so I'd say the barrier would collapse
when it carries some 340 kg or more.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Barrier "Strength"?
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:25:16 -0500
> If a mage erects a barrier, say with a barrier rating of 8, how much
weight
> could be applied to that barrier before it collapses?

As much as a similar shaped wall of any material with a barrier rating of 8
could support? Unfortuantely, THAT is also very vauge (there's a list of
materials vs barrier rating, but no note of how THICK that is...).
Generaly, if something doesn't impact at a high enough speed to get through
(per the collsion rules, that would mean 10Kph x barrier rating), I think
its gonna stop dead.
Now, if you knew the general "real world" forces involved in such a
collision (is a 50Kph collsion gonna do about 5g's , or more, or less?) you
couls just have the barrier break when a similar force is beign applied by a
dead load.
I don't think bassing it on the strength and breaking through barrier
rules is a good idea because the loads you get [genrally ((2xforce)=1) x
20kg] reflect how much a metahuman with that sterngth can support- a barrier
has a very diffrent shape. It might represent well how much it takes to
break the barrier at any one point, but is that the load per square meter,
for the whole thing totaled, or per square centimeter?

Mongoose

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Message no. 5
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Barrier "Strength"?
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:21:25 +0200
According to Sebastian Wiers, at 11:25 on 24 Apr 00, the word on the
street was...

> I don't think bassing it on the strength and breaking through barrier
> rules is a good idea because the loads you get [genrally ((2xforce)=1) x
> 20kg] reflect how much a metahuman with that sterngth can support- a barrier
> has a very diffrent shape. It might represent well how much it takes to
> break the barrier at any one point, but is that the load per square meter,
> for the whole thing totaled, or per square centimeter?

True, but it's the only guide we have, even though I agree it's far too
rough to be really practical.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: Achille Autran aautran@*************.fr
Subject: Barrier "Strength"?
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:22:01 +0200
From: "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*********.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:25:16 -0500

>> If a mage erects a barrier, say with a barrier rating of 8, how much
>>weight could be applied to that barrier before it collapses?
>
>As much as a similar shaped wall of any material with a barrier rating >of 8 could
support? Unfortuantely, THAT is also very vauge (there's a >list of materials vs
barrier rating, but no note of how THICK that >is...). Generaly, if something doesn't
impact at a high enough speed to >get through (per the collsion rules, that would mean
10Kph x barrier >rating), I think its gonna stop dead.
> Now, if you knew the general "real world" forces involved in such a
>collision (is a 50Kph collsion gonna do about 5g's , or more, or less?) >you couls
just have the barrier break when a similar force is beign >applied by a dead load.
> I don't think bassing it on the strength and breaking through >barrier rules is
a good idea because the loads you get [genrally >((2xforce)=1) x 20kg] reflect how much
a metahuman with that sterngth >can support- a barrier has a very diffrent shape. It
might represent >well how much it takes to break the barrier at any one point, but is
>that the load per square meter, for the whole thing totaled, or per >square
centimeter?

I agree with this. The 'break-threshold' should be, IMO, a pressure:
localized puncture should get through more easily than spread force.
Based on car crash rules and a quick and very dirty calculus, I found
the following formula: P = 4*n^2 bar = 4*n^2 kg/cm^2 with n being the
force of the barrier (a very resilient barrier, in fact, but concrete
pillars (barrier rating 14: structural material) can withstand unscated
impact with a 190kph Mercedes...).
This formula is non-linear, and therefore totally unusable. I would
go with the approximation: P = 20*n kg/cm^2.
It may seem high, but keep in mind that it is a threshold, and
pressure can be vastly increased on the edges of the pressing object...
And potentially abusing players should also keep in mind that
eventually, it's GM call, as usual.
Message no. 7
From: Augustus shadowrun@*********.net
Subject: Barrier "Strength"?
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:36:06 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: Ahrain <Ahrain_Drigar@*******.com>

> Unusual question here conserning Physical Barriers.
>
> If a mage erects a barrier, say with a barrier rating of 8, how much
weight
> could be applied to that barrier before it collapses?

My thoughts:

For things falling on your barrier:
Can use the rules from Rigger 2... for crashing into walls and
barriers... for speed though, you would use the speed of the debris. The
fastest this debris could fall is 266 meters per turn (terminal velocity
roughly converted to the ambiguous "shadowrun turn"... if you want absolute
accuracy take a physics course... and if you want to correct me with
absolute accuracy, then fuck off idiot, its just a game)

For weight on a barrier:
For this, I would use the barrier rules from SR3 (p124)... but you need
a power level of the "pressure"
What I think would work is... using the rules for "Hauling the Load"
(SR3 p274)... and treating the debris as moderatly fatiguing (and you can
easily modify that based on size of the barrier or impact/pressure applied..
by treating the debris as lightly fatiguing (for a small barrier and more
impact) or seriously fatiguing (for a HUGE barrier and little appreciable
impact).
So... based on: STR*15 = Weight Then, something that weighs 150 kg
could effectivly apply 10M pressure to a barrier.
how frequently the pressure damage applied would be up to the GM... but
common sense would say a few things... if the barrier is small or has
limited structural support, check for damage more frequently than if it is a
large and/or structurally sound barrier.
Though I would suspect that it should never be faster than a combat
turn... nor for appreciable game effect, slower than one hour.

Hopefully that'll offer some insight,

Aug
Message no. 8
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Barrier "Strength"?
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:41:32 +0200
According to Augustus, at 9:36 on 25 Apr 00, the word on the street was...

> Can use the rules from Rigger 2... for crashing into walls and
> barriers... for speed though, you would use the speed of the debris. The
> fastest this debris could fall is 266 meters per turn (terminal velocity
> roughly converted to the ambiguous "shadowrun turn"... if you want absolute
> accuracy take a physics course... and if you want to correct me with
> absolute accuracy, then fuck off idiot, its just a game)

Ahem. Add a smiley if you make comments like that and don't mean them. If
you make comments like that and mean them: chill out, it's just a mailing
list. On top of that, it's IMHO silly to mention a figure of 266 m/t and
then tell others to "fuck off" if they want better accuracy...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: Ahrain Drigar ahrain_drigar@*******.com
Subject: Barrier "Strength"?
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:12:29 EDT
>From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
>Subject: Re: Barrier "Strength"?
>Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:41:32 +0200
>
>According to Augustus, at 9:36 on 25 Apr 00, the word on the street was...
>
<SNIP>

>Ahem. Add a smiley if you make comments like that and don't mean them. If
>you make comments like that and mean them: chill out, it's just a mailing
>list. On top of that, it's IMHO silly to mention a figure of 266 m/t and
>then tell others to "fuck off" if they want better accuracy...
>
>--

Amen.

Now, Collision rules, fine, easy. Weight idea, OK. Should there be any
modification to the strength based off shape? EG. a dome, IIRC, is
structurally more sound than say a base wall. (on average). Should the dome
be able to support more weight? or Would that not come into play because it
is a magical construction and strength is based on force only?

The reason I was asking is that my current mage uses barrier ALOT. Cast
around bad guys, giving some cover for the runners to escape; casting a
barrier under a closing pressure door to slow it down; in the basement of a
collapsing building to keep from being pate'; Being burried at the bottom
of a drilling shaft (ala James Bond type death scenario) to avoid the dirt
from crushing them, etc.

I figured, since my wife isn't all that mathmatical, it would be a good idea
to get some info from the "experts". :P

Another question. Could 2 or more barriers be summoned inside of each other
effectively making a) a stronger barrier or b) (for collisions) making the
colliding object less powerful?

Ahrain
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Message no. 10
From: Ahrain Drigar ahrain_drigar@*******.com
Subject: Barrier "Strength"?
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:12:32 EDT
>From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
>Subject: Re: Barrier "Strength"?
>Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:41:32 +0200
>
>According to Augustus, at 9:36 on 25 Apr 00, the word on the street was...
>
<SNIP>

>Ahem. Add a smiley if you make comments like that and don't mean them. If
>you make comments like that and mean them: chill out, it's just a mailing
>list. On top of that, it's IMHO silly to mention a figure of 266 m/t and
>then tell others to "fuck off" if they want better accuracy...
>
>--

Amen.

Now, Collision rules, fine, easy. Weight idea, OK. Should there be any
modification to the strength based off shape? EG. a dome, IIRC, is
structurally more sound than say a base wall. (on average). Should the dome
be able to support more weight? or Would that not come into play because it
is a magical construction and strength is based on force only?

The reason I was asking is that my current mage uses barrier ALOT. Cast
around bad guys, giving some cover for the runners to escape; casting a
barrier under a closing pressure door to slow it down; in the basement of a
collapsing building to keep from being pate'; Being burried at the bottom
of a drilling shaft (ala James Bond type death scenario) to avoid the dirt
from crushing them, etc.

I figured, since my wife isn't all that mathmatical, it would be a good idea
to get some info from the "experts". :P

Another question. Could 2 or more barriers be summoned inside of each other
effectively making a) a stronger barrier or b) (for collisions) making the
colliding object less powerful?

Ahrain
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Message no. 11
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Barrier "Strength"?
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:16:50 EDT
In a message dated 4/25/2000 5:13:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ahrain_drigar@*******.com writes:

> Now, Collision rules, fine, easy. Weight idea, OK. Should there be any
> modification to the strength based off shape? EG. a dome, IIRC, is
> structurally more sound than say a base wall. (on average). Should the
dome
> be able to support more weight? or Would that not come into play because
it
> is a magical construction and strength is based on force only?

I would argue no in this case, the reason being that we are talking about the
forces applied TO the dome. And since the force of the dome is magical,
rather than structural, any benifit due to shape would be co-incidental at
best. It might SEEM like it holds up more weight, but only because the
material pressing down on it would slide off unless held in place due to the
dome shape....

--
Starrngr -- Ranger HQ
HTTP://home.talkcity.com/TheSanitarium/Da_Muck/

"You wear a Hawaiian shirt and bring your music on a RUN? No wonder they
call you Howling Mad..." -- Rabid the Pysad.
Message no. 12
From: Achille Autran aautran@*************.fr
Subject: Barrier "Strength"?
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 03:30:58 +0200
From: "Ahrain Drigar" <ahrain_drigar@*******.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:12:29 EDT

> Now, Collision rules, fine, easy. Weight idea, OK. Should there be any
> modification to the strength based off shape? EG. a dome, IIRC, is
> structurally more sound than say a base wall. (on average). Should the dome
> be able to support more weight? or Would that not come into play because it
> is a magical construction and strength is based on force only?
> <SNIP>
> I figured, since my wife isn't all that mathmatical, it would be a good idea
> to get some info from the "experts". :P

I'm no expert and rather new to the list, but I hope my little knowledge
will be of help.
Barrier ratings are -another- abstract that does not take physical
components into account. But we can make good guesses with the Barrier
Rating Table. And from this we get that barriers are actually rather
strong: a rating 6 is as strong as a standard concrete wall (10cm thick)
and quite difficult to punch through.

Next problem: what is the kind of strength of the barrier ? Does it
reacts as concrete (holding firm until crashing) ? Glass (shattering) ?
Like a kevlar/spectra sail, flexible but incredibly strong ? Or a weird
magical spongy thing, that gets firmer and firmer as you push through ?
I would go with any description and let to the spell designer special
effects, and deal with it as a concrete wall - it's a physical
manipulation after all, and we've got experience from collapsing
buildings / crashes into walls / etc.

Then you extrapolate the thickness of the wall:
rating 2-3 - ugly preconstructed drek that strecthes with a little push.
rating 4-5 - good dividing wall. Some bullets get through.
rating 6-8 - solid wall made of concrete blocks or better.
rating 9-14 - structural walls. Heavy, reliable.
rating 15+ - the kind of pillars you need 4 to make a building stand up.
Adequate protection against any threat, but will you
ever be able to cast such a spell ?
After this, it's common sense that rules if you're not a civil engineer.
Picture a fly, a man, a bike, a car, a truck smashing into it. Picture
where earthquake survivors are found.
Shape of the barrier would have an effect IMO. As I said, it's a
manipulation spell, and EM attack spells do create material effects.
But remember that this is a rule for the GM, not an actual description
of the barrier.

> Another question. Could 2 or more barriers be summoned inside of each other
> effectively making a) a stronger barrier or b) (for collisions) making the
> colliding object less powerful?

With the precedent theory:
a) No. If a building is collapsing on your forehead, stacking little
walls won't stop it. You need a big, well shaped barrier.
b) Yes. Each barrier will reduce the energy of the incoming object.
However, the first barrier is more likely to collapse.

That's all and too long. I hope I provided, anyway, a practical way of
dealing with barriers.

Further Reading

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