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Message no. 1
From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: Barriers, Vehicles, Structures, Hardened Armor and Heavy We
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:34:36 +0000
David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG> once wrote,

(snipped)

> All of the above adjustments are made before other modifiers
> (such as ammo effects) and before damage is resisted. Round all
> fractions down.

Ack... I don't think I can agree with that. As it is, your system makes
armor a lot more powerful than they were, especially at the high-end of
hardened armor (and that's a gripe I have with the original SR rules). I
would consider using the Power rating AFTER modifiers.

Depending on the armor, power would still be cut in half, but high-rate
weapons like the HVAR (supposedly high-tech, SOTA shit) would have a
chance to penetrate those heavier armor types, and that would eliminate
that lame "Robocop-sparks-rain-on-me" effect. Well, at least, an HVAR
would make for a scary weapon, not some toy that happens to spew
faster than the others.

Like I said, at the low end of the firearms spectrum (i.e. Machine
pistols, SMGs, etc) this won't do much good unless you go FA, and then the
aim is usually WAY off. At the high-end, Armor wearers will have to be
more careful (as they should), and take into account milspec weapons like
the HVAR or the HV LMG. Not to mention that the most daunting of all
weapons, the Vindicator minigun, would be a lot more effective (and, damn,
it's a minigun..it should be).

Trinity
------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca
This message was brought to you by Mobb Deep - "Hell on Earth"

"Life is a blur"
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Barriers, Vehicles, Structures, Hardened Armor and Heavy We
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:55:20 -0700
Frank Pelletier wrote:
/
/ David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG> once wrote,
/
/ (snipped)
/
/ > All of the above adjustments are made before other modifiers
/ > (such as ammo effects) and before damage is resisted. Round all
/ > fractions down.
/
/ Ack... I don't think I can agree with that. As it is, your system makes
/ armor a lot more powerful than they were, especially at the high-end of
/ hardened armor (and that's a gripe I have with the original SR rules). I
/ would consider using the Power rating AFTER modifiers.

Hmm... I'll playtest both and see what happens.

/ Depending on the armor, power would still be cut in half, but high-rate
/ weapons like the HVAR (supposedly high-tech, SOTA shit) would have a
/ chance to penetrate those heavier armor types, and that would eliminate
/ that lame "Robocop-sparks-rain-on-me" effect. Well, at least, an HVAR
/ would make for a scary weapon, not some toy that happens to spew
/ faster than the others.

Hmmm... I don't know.. I got the impression that the HV weapons
fired .22 rounds. And no matter how fast a piece of lead is going its
going to deflect right off of heavy armor (unless its a *huge* piece
of lead or its going *really, really* fast).

I view the HV weapons as being flechette hoses, designed to kill
people, not vehicles and buildings.

/ Not to mention that the most daunting of all
/ weapons, the Vindicator minigun, would be a lot more effective (and, damn,
/ it's a minigun..it should be).

That's what go me started on this. Heavy weapons need some juice.
At least I'm fairly comfortable with what I've done in respect to
that :)

I'm gonna have to play with the dice for my armor rules though.

-David
--
"Fortune favors the brave." - Terence
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 3
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Barriers, Vehicles, Structures, Hardened Armor and Heavy We
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:30:12 GMT
On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:55:20 -0700, David Buehrer wrote:

> Frank Pelletier wrote:
>
> / Depending on the armor, power would still be cut in half, but high-rate
> / weapons like the HVAR (supposedly high-tech, SOTA shit) would have a
> / chance to penetrate those heavier armor types, and that would eliminate
> / that lame "Robocop-sparks-rain-on-me" effect. Well, at least, an HVAR
> / would make for a scary weapon, not some toy that happens to spew
> / faster than the others.
>
> Hmmm... I don't know.. I got the impression that the HV weapons
> fired .22 rounds. And no matter how fast a piece of lead is going its
> going to deflect right off of heavy armor (unless its a *huge* piece
> of lead or its going *really, really* fast).

The HV weapons include the HVAR (Assault Rifle) and HV LMG (Light Machine
Gun). Both are exclusively military weapons and would use military
cartridges-- that rules out the puny .22. I was actually pretty
disappointed with these weapons, since, as you have pointed out, are no
better than a generic Shadowrun AR. I was hoping more for a new integral
recoil management system that halved normal recoil penalties (0.5 per shot
fired, rounding up).

I also got the impression that the weapons uses a rapid mechanical action
such as the G11 has, which-- due to a real neat internal recoil mechanism--
allows the third round of a 3-rnd burst to leave the barrel before the
shooter feels *any* recoil. The 4.7mm caseless round of the G11 may be
smaller than the 5.56 NATO used in many Assault Rifles but it isn't that
much weaker.

> I view the HV weapons as being flechette hoses, designed to kill
> people, not vehicles and buildings.

There is no mention of "flechettes" in either weapons' descriptive text,
however. Flechettes is probably not the right word here :)

> / Not to mention that the most daunting of all
> / weapons, the Vindicator minigun, would be a lot more effective (and, damn,
> / it's a minigun..it should be).
>
> That's what go me started on this. Heavy weapons need some juice.
> At least I'm fairly comfortable with what I've done in respect to
> that :)

And that's why a large percentage of SR gaming groups have modified weapon
damage codes to *some* extent in their campaigns. As Gurth pointed out a
few months back, the main culprits are the heavy pistols and sniper rifles.
Modify their damage codes and disallow the current layering armour rules
and the game system becomes quite a bit more realistic (without having to
redesign most of the combat game mechanics).

I included better suppression fire rules for weapons with extremely high
rates of fire (the 15 rnds max per complex action is a ludicrous limit)
with Jane's Rigger Registry. I could post the relevant text if you want.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...

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