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Message no. 1
From: Nacon _ nac0n@*******.com
Subject: Bear shifters vs. Bombs
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:13:17 EDT
Ok chummers,
I'm writing this piece on request of one of my players.
The brake down goes like this: Shifter Bear runs into a building that
has a Lone Star undercover agent (another one of my players) and the Shifter
is ordered to assume the position and wait for the Star to arrive. At this
same exact time a insane voodoo shaman sets off 5 suit cases filled with
C-12 (yeah, this is the Mean Guns run).
So the question is "Could the Shifter regenerate and live after the
massive explosion"
His reasoning is the line in SRComp that states that extreme tissue
trauma (fire was the example given I believe) can be regenerated by a 3 or
better.
I say that is fine but he was ground zero of a C-12 blow out and would
have a chance.
I know as always GM's call but he GMs from time to time (so I can play
too) so we just need a tie breaker

Thanks
-CiD-
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Message no. 2
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Bear shifters vs. Bombs
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 08:08:10 -0600
Nacon _ wrote:
>Ok chummers,
> I'm writing this piece on request of one of my players.
> The brake down goes like this: Shifter Bear runs into a building that
> has a Lone Star undercover agent (another one of my players) and the
> Shifter is ordered to assume the position and wait for the Star to
> arrive. At this same exact time a insane voodoo shaman sets off 5 suit
> cases filled with C-12 (yeah, this is the Mean Guns run).
> So the question is "Could the Shifter regenerate and live after the
> massive explosion"
> His reasoning is the line in SRComp that states that extreme tissue
> trauma (fire was the example given I believe) can be regenerated by a 3
> or better.
> I say that is fine but he was ground zero of a C-12 blow out and would
> have a chance.
> I know as always GM's call but he GMs from time to time (so I can play
> too) so we just need a tie breaker

First off, when you're the GM, you're the GM. It's your call.

I make decisions on issues like this based on where I want to go with the
campaign/plot.

I'm not sure if the shifter is an NPC or a PC, so you are going to get two
opinions :)

If the shifter is an NPC, it's a simple matter of whether or not I want to
use that NPC again. If I do, the NPC lives. If not, then I can let him die.

If the shifter is a PC, then there are a lot of variables. Do I want the
PC to continue to have a place in the campaign? Do I have any sympathy for
the PC? Do I think the PC's death would contribute positively to the
campaign I'm trying to run? How do I think the player would react to the
life or death of their PC? How much do I care about the player's reaction?

I.e., I don't make the decision based on the rules. I try to figure out
what I want out of the campaign.

IMHO being exposed to a point blank explosion of a couple hundred kilos of
C-12 could certainly kill a shifter. On the other hand the shifter could
also get lucky and have his body thrown by the blast and have enough left
to regenerate from.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday ... and all is well."
Message no. 3
From: Herc airwisp@******************.com
Subject: Bear shifters vs. Bombs
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:43:34 -0500
> Nacon _ wrote:
> >Ok chummers,
> > I'm writing this piece on request of one of my players.
> > The brake down goes like this: Shifter Bear runs into a building that
> > has a Lone Star undercover agent (another one of my players) and the
> > Shifter is ordered to assume the position and wait for the Star to
> > arrive. At this same exact time a insane voodoo shaman sets off 5 suit
> > cases filled with C-12 (yeah, this is the Mean Guns run).
> > So the question is "Could the Shifter regenerate and live after the
> > massive explosion"
> > His reasoning is the line in SRComp that states that extreme tissue
> > trauma (fire was the example given I believe) can be regenerated by a 3
> > or better.
> > I say that is fine but he was ground zero of a C-12 blow out and
would
> > have a chance.
> > I know as always GM's call but he GMs from time to time (so I can
play
> > too) so we just need a tie breaker
>
> First off, when you're the GM, you're the GM. It's your call.
>
> I make decisions on issues like this based on where I want to go with the
> campaign/plot.
>
> I'm not sure if the shifter is an NPC or a PC, so you are going to get two
> opinions :)
>
> If the shifter is an NPC, it's a simple matter of whether or not I want to
> use that NPC again. If I do, the NPC lives. If not, then I can let him
die.
>
> If the shifter is a PC, then there are a lot of variables. Do I want the
> PC to continue to have a place in the campaign? Do I have any sympathy
for
> the PC? Do I think the PC's death would contribute positively to the
> campaign I'm trying to run? How do I think the player would react to the
> life or death of their PC? How much do I care about the player's
reaction?
>
> I.e., I don't make the decision based on the rules. I try to figure out
> what I want out of the campaign.
>
> IMHO being exposed to a point blank explosion of a couple hundred kilos of
> C-12 could certainly kill a shifter. On the other hand the shifter could
> also get lucky and have his body thrown by the blast and have enough left
> to regenerate from.

Another thing to remember is this ... first have the shifter resist the
damage from the explosion ... being that this is a C-12 explosion it is
going to be very nasty ...

Remember ... if the shifter goes over 'D' then the shifter needs to make a
death check also ... and the damage is coming from so many directions there
is the possibility that the shifter will suffer some form of
spinal/neurological damage. Sure the shifter could survive ... the shifter
may become a paraplegic or quadroplegic from nerve tissue damage, which is
not regeneratable.

All things to consider.

-Mike
Message no. 4
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Bear shifters vs. Bombs
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:29:49 -0500
On Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:13:17 EDT "Nacon _" <nac0n@*******.com> writes:
> Ok chummers,
<SNIP>
> So the question is "Could the Shifter regenerate and live after
> the
> massive explosion"
<SNIP>
> I say that is fine but he was ground zero of a C-12 blow out and
> would
> have a chance.
<SNIP>

If he was in the same building, yes, give him a roll to regenerate (IMO).
If he was in the same room, he's so much paté. The roll to see if he
regenerates is NOT to see if the regeneration kicks in. It's to see if
central nervous system tissue was significantly damaged. If it was, the
shifter (or any other critter with regen) is toast. If you KNOW CNS
tissue was significantly damaged, then don't roll; the hair ball is dead.
Of course, you as a GM can always overrule this and let him live or let
him roll. (Maybe let him regen if he rolls a 6 on d6? ;) )

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 5
From: Nacon _ nac0n@*******.com
Subject: Bear shifters vs. Bombs
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 13:01:24 EDT
<SNIP>
>If the shifter is a PC, then there are a lot of variables. Do I want the
>PC to continue to have a place in the campaign? Do I have any sympathy for
>the PC? Do I think the PC's death would contribute positively to the
>campaign I'm trying to run? How do I think the player would react to the
>life or death of their PC? How much do I care about the player's reaction?
>
>I.e., I don't make the decision based on the rules. I try to figure out
>what I want out of the campaign.
>
>IMHO being exposed to a point blank explosion of a couple hundred kilos of
>C-12 could certainly kill a shifter. On the other hand the shifter could
>also get lucky and have his body thrown by the blast and have enough left
>to regenerate from.

Well as far as plot goes he had none in this particular/up coming
campaign. As far as the luck idea, I did allow that with the hand of God
option, but he had used it already. As far as his reaction to the dead I
really wouldn't even conceder that, if a player dies then he dies he is
mature to accept that (unlike some of my players)
Thanks for the feedback
-CiD-

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Message no. 6
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Bear shifters vs. Bombs
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:22:05 +0200
According to Nacon _, at 10:13 on 9 Jun 00, the word on the street was...

> So the question is "Could the Shifter regenerate and live after the
> massive explosion"
> His reasoning is the line in SRComp that states that extreme tissue
> trauma (fire was the example given I believe) can be regenerated by a 3 or
> better.
> I say that is fine but he was ground zero of a C-12 blow out and would
> have a chance.

By the book, the player would be right -- the explosives won't do more
than Deadly damage (unless you're using the overdamage rules from page 126
of the SR3 rulebook), and the shapeshifter can regenerate that.

However, in our group we are using a rule from the SRII Companion which
lets explosives roll dice to stage up their own effect, and also have a
much deadlier set of overdamage rules. These two combined would make it
pretty difficult for a shapeshifter to regenerate without the need to
resort to flat GM rulings of the "You're dead" kind.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: LDYTinne@***.com LDYTinne@***.com
Subject: Bear shifters vs. Bombs
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 00:48:19 EDT
06/09/2000 9:13:53 AM Central Daylight Time
From: nac0n@*******.com (Nacon _)>>>
The brake down goes like this: Shifter Bear runs into a building that
has a Lone Star undercover agent (another one of my players) and the Shifter
is ordered to assume the position and wait for the Star to arrive. At this
same exact time a insane voodoo shaman sets off 5 suit cases filled with
C-12 (yeah, this is the Mean Guns run).
So the question is "Could the Shifter regenerate and live after the
massive explosion"
His reasoning is the line in SRComp that states that extreme tissue
trauma (fire was the example given I believe) can be regenerated by a 3 or
better.
I say that is fine but he was ground zero of a C-12 blow out and would
have a chance.
I know as always GM's call but he GMs from time to time (so I can play
too) so we just need a tie breaker<<<

This sounds like the vampire fubar rule regarding the ability that allows you
to save vs nuclear explosion (A high level fortitude power)... I aggree with
my former co-storyteller on these type of big explosion rules. Every cell
must be rolled for separartely. If one botch is rolled the the chararcter is
a thin red paste, no arguments, no mercy. Never ever let yourself get jerked
around by your gamers, unless it is very good for the plot and relevant to
the plot.

(Hel) was easy, this is difficult
Tinne
Message no. 8
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Bear shifters vs. Bombs
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 08:15:36 GMT
>From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
>If the shifter is a PC, then there are a lot of variables. Do I want the
>PC to continue to have a place in the campaign? Do I have any sympathy for
>the PC? Do I think the PC's death would contribute positively to the
>campaign I'm trying to run? How do I think the player would react to the
>life or death of their PC? How much do I care about the player's reaction?

This is something that came up in our game yesterday; the GM (not me)
decided that he really did not like one of the PCs; the character was a mass
murdering ghoul asshole who just did not fit with the others (the player
played him perfectly, the character was just an asshole). So the GM decided
to really shake him up - giving him a cranial bomb that will go off if he
gets violent or goes near ghoul town (we're in Chicago). The player did not
like this and explained how he had put a lot of time into creating his
character and basicly this was not how he wanted him to go.

I know that the Phil GM school of apathy dictates that the player should
learn to live with it as quietly as possible but what does anyone else
think; should GMs take back decisions that really annoy the players even if
it makes the GM's life a lot harder?

Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

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Message no. 9
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Bear shifters vs. Bombs
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:46:12 +0200
According to LDYTinne@***.com, at 0:48 on 10 Jun 00, the word on the
street was...

> This sounds like the vampire fubar rule regarding the ability that allows you
> to save vs nuclear explosion (A high level fortitude power)... I aggree with
> my former co-storyteller on these type of big explosion rules. Every cell
> must be rolled for separartely.

Do you mean every cell in the character's body, or did you -- for some
reason -- use the word "cell" to refer to each batch of explosives going
off in the area? I would like to see one GM who has the time to do the
former...

> If one botch is rolled the the chararcter is a thin red paste, no
> arguments, no mercy.

...and this would then guarantee a botch regardless of the number of dice
you're rolling.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: C J Tipton arkades@****.com
Subject: Bear shifters vs. Bombs
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 04:51:12 -0500
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:46:12 +0200


According to LDYTinne@***.com, at 0:48 on 10 Jun 00, the word on the
street was...

> This sounds like the vampire fubar rule regarding the ability that
allows you
> to save vs nuclear explosion (A high level fortitude power)... I
aggree with
> my former co-storyteller on these type of big explosion rules. Every
cell
> must be rolled for separartely.

>Do you mean every cell in the character's body, or did you -- for some
reason -- use the word "cell" to refer to each batch of explosives going
off in the area? I would like to see one GM who has the time to do the
former...

> If one botch is rolled the the chararcter is a thin red paste, no
> arguments, no mercy.

>...and this would then guarantee a botch regardless of the number of
dice
you're rolling.

--
>Gurth@******.nl -
http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

>GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V?
PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---)
y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Actually that was sort of mi'ladys point. The Storyteller in question
figured it was stupid that a vampire could make a roll
to avoid a nuclear( that is what I said...NUCLEAR) blast by making a
single test. The player in question was spouting off a rule about their
advanced fortitude levels letting them survive any sort of explosion. The
storyteller in turn suggested that as the rules were never meant to cover
nuclear explosions that this was ridiculous. The PC persisted,
and the Storyteller "relented" by suggesting that as the damage was taken
on a cellular level, that the test would be allowed as long as it was
made for each cell in the PC's body. Any signigicant number of failures
would indicate Final
Death. The PC decided not to bother with the rather outrageous number of
tests and accepted that they had yet again
let their mouth write a check their ass couldn't cash.

I thought it was funny as Hel, frankly.

COWBOY(needs food...Badly!)
CJ
Arkades@****.com

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Message no. 11
From: Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject: Bear shifters vs. Bombs
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 12:44:43 -0400
A questin resounds through the ether, and the ancient philosopher speaks
from his lofty mountain peak...

----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Smith <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
> I know that the Phil GM school of apathy dictates that the player should
> learn to live with it as quietly as possible but what does anyone else
> think; should GMs take back decisions that really annoy the players even
if
> it makes the GM's life a lot harder?

Well, I think just outright slamming the player with a major neagtive like
that is a bad idea. Even if the PC is role-playing wonderfully and remaining
true to his character, if its causing problems for the GM, he needs to take
action (even if that problem is "it royally annoys me").

IMO, the first step is to talk with the player outside of "game time"
without any of the other players around. See if some compromise can be
reached -- "Your homicidal tendencies are royally messing up my game and
pissing me off" probably isn't a good tack, but, "I'm having some difficulty
with your character" could work. Regardless, you should ask the player to
rein in his more disruptive tendencies. If he won't comply... then you can
start getting ugly. I believe in always giving my victim a warning before
blowing him away.

As a GM, I have enough to do without wondering how this mass-murdering
anarchist is going to screw up my plans for the evening's game. I think it
is important that the players help the GM keep the game running smoothly. If
the GM is annoyed by the continual actions of a PC, the game suffers. When
the game suffers, the players get bored and rowdy, and well... all hell will
eventually break loose.

I leave you with one of my "Rules to play games by" -- The GM is also a
player; he should be having fun too.

-- Josh
P.S. If the Awakening were to happen tomorrow, I'd probably be an elf (tall,
lanky and fast) but I'd really like to be an ork ('cause they're freakin'
cool). My totem would probably be either Coyote (because I live by my own
rules and survive on my wit and charm) or Mouse (because I tend to hoard
lots of trivia and other junk, as well as intensely curious).
Message no. 12
From: Nacon _ nac0n@*******.com
Subject: Bear shifters vs. Bombs
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 15:41:04 EDT
>From: "Josh Harrison" <mataxes@****.net>

>Well, I think just outright slamming the player with a major neagtive like
>that is a bad idea. Even if the PC is role-playing wonderfully and
>remaining
>true to his character, if its causing problems for the GM, he needs to take
>action (even if that problem is "it royally annoys me").

In this area I have a one-on-one run I do with the player called
"Lessons". This is really three short runs the character goes through and
does his best in. The point originally was to show three new players the way
the shadows are with out the candy coated shell, now its kinda like a
weeding system and character tester.
Ex.I had a player who decided to make a retarded cyclopes who believed he
was a super hero named Super Cyclopes. I believe he made the character to
see how much he could get away with, so I let the player spend all his time
creating this super nut munchie and even let him take delta ware starting
out. By the time we had gone through all three sections of Lessons, Super
Munchie had died in every single section. A few days later he had made a new
character and wanted to send him through Lessons to play test him in my SR
world. I think just that one-on-one run told him all the Shadows with out
spending hours, days, and week sifting through a stack of books taller than
him.

-CiD-


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