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Message no. 1
From: BillT@*********.com BillT@*********.com
Subject: Beginning of the Second Great Land Grab...
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:52:56 -0700
Everyday I see items that look like Shadowrun history becoming real.
Now the Washington State GOP has introduced a resolution to remove
Native American sovereignty and tribal land rights. This is the type
of action that resulted in Amerindians in Shadowrun to fight for
their land and be put in camps (again).

The newspaper reports that the Republican Party passed a resolution
at its state
convention calling for the end of tribal governments. A briefly
debated resolution calls on the federal government to "take whatever
steps necessary to terminate all such non-republican forms of
government on Indian reservations, and compensate those citizens who
have wrongly suffered loss due to denial of their
constitutionally guaranteed rights to be governed by a republican form of
government." (No words about compensating tribal members for stripping
their property rights.) In other words: pay the non-Indian residents
of reservations, tell tribal governments to roll up and go away, and
move on.

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis/web/vortex/display?slug=trah06m&date
000706&query=republican+indian

--

BillT@*********.com | PGP KeyID#: 0xECB1EE6F

..because the lives of the wicked should be made brief
and for the rest of us death would be a relief.
-Sweeny Todd
Message no. 2
From: caelric@****.com caelric@****.com
Subject: Beginning of the Second Great Land Grab...
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:35:16 -0700
At 11:52 AM 7/11/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Everyday I see items that look like Shadowrun history becoming real.
>Now the Washington State GOP has introduced a resolution to remove
>Native American sovereignty and tribal land rights. This is the type
>of action that resulted in Amerindians in Shadowrun to fight for
>their land and be put in camps (again).
>
>The newspaper reports that the Republican Party passed a resolution
>at its state
>convention calling for the end of tribal governments. A briefly
>debated resolution calls on the federal government to "take whatever
>steps necessary to terminate all such non-republican forms of
>government on Indian reservations, and compensate those citizens who
>have wrongly suffered loss due to denial of their
>constitutionally guaranteed rights to be governed by a republican form of
>government." (No words about compensating tribal members for stripping
>their property rights.) In other words: pay the non-Indian residents
>of reservations, tell tribal governments to roll up and go away, and
>move on.
>
Not to get too much into politics, but the major push behind this one is
the casinos on Native American land. I imagine the big Vegas money is
getting worried about all the non-Vegas casinos popping up. On a side
note: while the Family used to be greatly involved in Vegas, now it is
more the corporations behind the scenes in Vegas rather than organized
crime, although they do still have some power there. So, the corps are the
ones donating money to politicians to introduce bills to take away the
land. Sometimes I'm ashamed to be registered Republican ::sigh::

Anyways, I don't see anything like this passing anytime soon, no matter how
much money is behind it

Dave
Message no. 3
From: SyphonAC@***.com SyphonAC@***.com
Subject: Beginning of the Second Great Land Grab...
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:07:00 EDT
In a message dated 7/11/00 4:40:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, caelric@****.com
writes:

<< Not to get too much into politics, but the major push behind this one is
the casinos on Native American land. I imagine the big Vegas money is
getting worried about all the non-Vegas casinos popping up. On a side
note: while the Family used to be greatly involved in Vegas, now it is
more the corporations behind the scenes in Vegas rather than organized
crime, although they do still have some power there. So, the corps are the
ones donating money to politicians to introduce bills to take away the
land. Sometimes I'm ashamed to be registered Republican ::sigh::

Anyways, I don't see anything like this passing anytime soon, no matter how
much money is behind it

Dave
>>
Well I think with the amount of money involved, something like this could
pass, and would be a great injustice. Though money may be the motivation, the
loss of yet more rights of a group who has taken so much abuse would be a
true tragedy. Worse, it is one that quite possibly could happen all but
unnoticed, with the mass media apparently more interested currently in some
moronic Harry Potter book than reporting actual news. At least, it would go
unnoticed, until some kind of violence occured, which I'm sure Dan Rather or
whoever would then be more than happy to blame on the Native Americans
without looking at the true causes, shortly before going to some piece on an
80 year old who ran a marathon, or some similar feel-good hokey crap. As a
journalist myself I feel more than justified in saying all this--we as a
culture care about what looks good and how we can keep some defunct "American
dream" going than what the truth is and who the victims really are.

Syphon
Message no. 4
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: Beginning of the Second Great Land Grab...
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:15:46 -0400
As a
>journalist myself I feel more than justified in saying all this--we as a
>culture care about what looks good and how we can keep some defunct
"American
>dream" going than what the truth is and who the victims really are.
>
>Syphon
>
>
Unfortunately this wouldn't be the first time we've screwed another culture
in the name of the "American Dream" or "Christianity" for that
matter...and
it sure as hell wouldn't be the first time we've done it to the Native
Americans. Frankly if another damned Indian war broke out they'd be fully
justified.
Message no. 5
From: SyphonAC@***.com SyphonAC@***.com
Subject: Beginning of the Second Great Land Grab...
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:03:06 EDT
In a message dated 7/11/00 5:11:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sinabian@********.net writes:

<< Unfortunately this wouldn't be the first time we've screwed another culture
in the name of the "American Dream" or "Christianity" for that
matter...and
it sure as hell wouldn't be the first time we've done it to the Native
Americans. Frankly if another damned Indian war broke out they'd be fully
justified. >>

But you better believe that the politicians and media would make sure it was
a "completely unprovoked attack, an assualt on our way of life, and our
children, and small puppies, and that cute bear that sells fabric softener"
::violins start playing:: Yeah right. Maybe Chief Joesph had it right when he
said he'd fight no more forever, but some things are forth fighting over.

Syphon
Message no. 6
From: caelric@****.com caelric@****.com
Subject: Beginning of the Second Great Land Grab...
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:07:59 -0700
At 07:03 PM 7/11/00 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 7/11/00 5:11:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>sinabian@********.net writes:
>
><< Unfortunately this wouldn't be the first time we've screwed another
culture
> in the name of the "American Dream" or "Christianity" for that
matter...and
> it sure as hell wouldn't be the first time we've done it to the Native
> Americans. Frankly if another damned Indian war broke out they'd be fully
> justified. >>


See, I don't see this happening. Maybe back 50 years ago when there wasn't
such unlimited global communications, but today? There are enough ways to
get the word out about something like this that the people that care, of
which there are more of those today, and more outspoken, that I don't see
the land grab succeeding. I could be wrong, but I hope not.

As an example, even when people were trying to demonize all Arabic peoples
because of the rash of terrorism commited by a few deranged individuals,
there was enough of a backlash against that to keep it in check. Witness
the movie 'The Siege', where it actually made the actions of the people
trying to demonize the Arabic peoples look foolish.

Once again, I could be wrong, but with global communications, I can't
really picture it happening.

Dave
Message no. 7
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: Beginning of the Second Great Land Grab...
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:06:14 -0400
>See, I don't see this happening. Maybe back 50 years ago when there wasn't
>such unlimited global communications, but today? There are enough ways to
>get the word out about something like this that the people that care, of
>which there are more of those today, and more outspoken, that I don't see
>the land grab succeeding. I could be wrong, but I hope not.
>
>As an example, even when people were trying to demonize all Arabic peoples
>because of the rash of terrorism commited by a few deranged individuals,
>there was enough of a backlash against that to keep it in check. Witness
>the movie 'The Siege', where it actually made the actions of the people
>trying to demonize the Arabic peoples look foolish.
>
>Once again, I could be wrong, but with global communications, I can't
>really picture it happening.
>
>Dave
>
>
>

Global communications are controlled by the people holding the mic. And an
age-old prejudice might potentially go unnoticed or unblocked. (though the
fact that we're talking about it even here on a gaming mailing list is a
good sign...) However, to prove a point about the prejudices. Suppose I were
to tell you that there are still people in the world practicing witchcraft?
And that not all of them are Satanists? Now hypothetically let's presume
that the Roman Catholic Church decides to start up the witch trials
again...?

(::just knows this could start one HELL of a debate, but it's a good way to
make the point too...::)


"Do you believe in god?"

"Yes."

"Do you believe in my god?"

"No."

<BLAM!> "MY god has a bigger ----!"
Message no. 8
From: SyphonAC@***.com SyphonAC@***.com
Subject: Beginning of the Second Great Land Grab...
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:26:33 EDT
In a message dated 7/12/00 10:03:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sinabian@********.net writes:

<< Global communications are controlled by the people holding the mic. And an
age-old prejudice might potentially go unnoticed or unblocked. (though the
fact that we're talking about it even here on a gaming mailing list is a
good sign...) However, to prove a point about the prejudices. Suppose I were
to tell you that there are still people in the world practicing witchcraft?
And that not all of them are Satanists? Now hypothetically let's presume
that the Roman Catholic Church decides to start up the witch trials
again...? >>

Exactly. Don't forget, though the internet may be a "marketplace of ideas",
it's also blamed now and then for the "bad things" that happen. Take that
whole Columbine thing, for instance...the media blamed it on music, video
games, the internet, everything that is, except for what the blame really
fell on, the parents. See, the mass media doesn't have the balls to say to
those two kids' parents "Look people it's not entertainment's fault, it's
yours; you are crappy parents who could have prevented the whole thing by
paying attention to your kids. You could have stopped it but you didn't, now
all we can do is pray that you have the good sense to never breed again."

And that's the other thing I forgot to mention in my previous rant-- we make
mountains out of molehills, such as the Columbine example, but ignore the
things affecting a larger group, such as the Native American situation which
started all this. Now, it's a shame those kids died, but it's a simple fact
of life; people do die. I used to walk to school, and I could have been
creamed by a bus walking across the street...and to make my mother feel
better I'm sure they would have blamed the bus driver somehow, rather than me
for jaywalking in front of a bus. What the media tells us is that 15 kids
being killed at some obscure school is a national tragedy, but a whole ethnic
group, who, oh, by the way, had to be thrown off the land you so ignorantly
live on, is being pissed on yet again should be ignored. Why? Becuase to give
people the truth might make them think. And we don't need people who think,
we want people who produce. Now you might think that my saying this about an
industry I work in is hypocritical, but I've never written anything but the
truth and I'm doing pretty well. Whatever you do, next time you sit down to
watch the national news, stop and think about what you're seeing, and what
might really be going on.

Syphon
Message no. 9
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: Beginning of the Second Great Land Grab...
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:37:06 -0400
Whatever you do, next time you sit down to
>watch the national news, stop and think about what you're seeing, and what
>might really be going on.
>
>Syphon
>
>
>

Even Communism started out well-intentioned...but when you get the wrong
people in power, who learn how to work the system and start taking the quick
and easy paths to what they want... ::sighs and shakes his head:: And you're
absolutely right about the parents/media thing... And it's gone on forever.
Going back, anybody remember the whole Ozzy thing? You ever actually listen
to that song? It's a fraggin' anti-alcoholism song, describing drinking
yourself to death as slow suicide... But because one kid spouted off with
"Ozzy's got the answer" then went and offed himself, well it MUST be Ozzy's
fault...never mind the fact that they probably didn't even stop to think to
ask him what he meant? If they'd done that he might still be alive. But he's
not, and a scapegoat MUST be cast...

(sorry...if you haven't noticed I'm VERY prone to ranting about certain
subjects I feel strongly about and I have an unfortunate tendency to digress
occasionally to semi-related topics...)
Message no. 10
From: SyphonAC@***.com SyphonAC@***.com
Subject: Beginning of the Second Great Land Grab...
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:11:17 EDT
In a message dated 7/12/00 1:34:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sinabian@********.net writes:

<< Even Communism started out well-intentioned...but when you get the wrong
people in power, who learn how to work the system and start taking the quick
and easy paths to what they want... ::sighs and shakes his head:: And you're
absolutely right about the parents/media thing... And it's gone on forever.
Going back, anybody remember the whole Ozzy thing? You ever actually listen
to that song? It's a fraggin' anti-alcoholism song, describing drinking
yourself to death as slow suicide... But because one kid spouted off with
"Ozzy's got the answer" then went and offed himself, well it MUST be Ozzy's
fault...never mind the fact that they probably didn't even stop to think to
ask him what he meant? If they'd done that he might still be alive. But he's
not, and a scapegoat MUST be cast...
>>

Definitley. And believe me, it drives me nuts. But I don't know. I guess all
we can do is listen to what the Beatles said.....there will be an
answer....let it be. :) And maybe one day I'll make editor of some large
paper, hopefully the NY Times....then you're gonna see some serious shit...
>:)

Syphon
Message no. 11
From: caelric@****.com caelric@****.com
Subject: Beginning of the Second Great Land Grab...
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:46:43 -0700
At 10:06 AM 7/12/00 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Global communications are controlled by the people holding the mic.


Nope; not anymore. The internet has opened up communications to many
people who never would have had it before. For example, even in China, one
of the more restricted countries in the world today, people are still
getting the word out about most anything. Even with the gov't trying to
stop it, things are still getting in and out. True, there are places where
this is not true (try much of Africa for example), but it is changing as we
speak. The world is much, much, much more connected than it ever was before




>age-old prejudice might potentially go unnoticed or unblocked. (though the
>fact that we're talking about it even here on a gaming mailing list is a
>good sign...) However, to prove a point about the prejudices. Suppose I were
>to tell you that there are still people in the world practicing witchcraft?

/sarcasm

No, really? I never would have thought that.

/sarcasm off


>And that not all of them are Satanists? Now hypothetically let's presume
>that the Roman Catholic Church decides to start up the witch trials
>again...?

Yes; you know what would happen? Here's my guess...people would live the
Catholic church in droves, they would lose their tax exempt status (in the
USA, that is), and it would soon become a cult rather than a world wide
religion.

I think you are underestimating the world today. Bad things do happen, but
today, people know about them, and a lot of people try to prevent these bad
things. Nothing is perfect, but it is getting better.

Dave
Message no. 12
From: Keith Duthie psycho@*********.co.nz
Subject: Beginning of the Second Great Land Grab...
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:10:19 +1200 (NZST)
On Wed, 12 Jul 2000 caelric@****.com wrote:

> Yes; you know what would happen? Here's my guess...people would live the
> Catholic church in droves, they would lose their tax exempt status (in the
> USA, that is), and it would soon become a cult rather than a world wide
> religion.
>
> I think you are underestimating the world today. Bad things do happen, but
> today, people know about them, and a lot of people try to prevent these bad
> things. Nothing is perfect, but it is getting better.
If it starts off small enough, you'd be amazed at what people will
tolerate. Consider the "war on drugs", for example; also consider the
DMCA, UCITA, and various other US laws (many of which will somehow be made
enforcible in other countries eventually). You seem to be overestimating
the ability of people to face reality. Nothing is perfect, and while many
things are improving, many other things are getting worse.

Not to mention laws passed "for the good of the children".
--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Message no. 13
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Beginning of the Second Great Land Grab...
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:39:07 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Duthie <psycho@*********.co.nz>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, July 13, 2000 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: Beginning of the Second Great Land Grab...



>tolerate. Consider the "war on drugs", for example;

We needed the War On Drugs, otherwise how would all the drug cartels get
rich enough to start up Aztechnology? :?)
Message no. 14
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Beginning of the Second Great Land Grab...
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:52:53 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: caelric@****.com <caelric@****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, July 13, 2000 6:59 AM
Subject: Re: Beginning of the Second Great Land Grab...


>At 10:06 AM 7/12/00 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>Global communications are controlled by the people holding the mic.
>
>
>Nope; not anymore. The internet has opened up communications to many
>people who never would have had it before. For example, even in China, one
>of the more restricted countries in the world today, people are still
>getting the word out about most anything. Even with the gov't trying to
>stop it, things are still getting in and out. True, there are places where
>this is not true (try much of Africa for example), but it is changing as we
>speak. The world is much, much, much more connected than it ever was
before
>


I think a Chinese person is much more likely to be heard than an American
for one reason. If a Chinese person tells his truth, everyone will listen
because the only other source is the Government. In America (or UK, AU, etc)
everyone has their say, including rich radio and TV personalities who
pretend to voice their opinions, which are really the opinions of some rich
sponsor. My next door neighbour can get on the net and tell the world about
how aliens impregnated him then harvested the foetus and erased all trace of
evidence, or how secret masters in the middle of the planet are beaming mind
control plans to the military, or how the lady down the street plays her
music too loud. One guy speaking the truth about his people being slaugtered
will be drowned out by the lunatic screams of every man and his dog.
Aside from that, I can't remember the exact statistic any more, but
something like 1/3 of people on earth are yet to make their first telephone
call. You constantly hear about middle eastern religious nations thinking of
banning the internet. And finally, more and more bandwidth is being
swallowed up by the big corps, and it is just a matter of time before the
net is just like 2 way radio (maybe).
Message no. 15
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Beginning of the Second Great Land Grab...
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:32:53 -0600
caelric@****.com wrote:
>At 10:06 AM 7/12/00 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >Global communications are controlled by the people holding the mic.
>
>Nope; not anymore. The internet has opened up communications to many
>people who never would have had it before.

Yes, but there are far more TVs than computers (and believe it or not, not
everyone with a computer is connected to the internet). And in many
countries where people are charged for basic phone service by the minute
(most European countries, and Australia too I believe) its much cheaper to
just turn on the TV.

And of those connected to the internet, very few take the time to get their
news from the internet. It's much, much easier for someone to turn on the
TV, flip to your favorite channel, and sit. People on the whole tend to
take the path of least resistance.

And, in general the web are surfed by the younger population. The middle
aged+ tend to stick with what they know. And guess who votes and who doesn't?

The TV/Radio media have much more influence than the internet, for now.


To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday ... and all is well."
Message no. 16
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: Beginning of the Second Great Land Grab...
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:30:40 -0400
>>Nope; not anymore. The internet has opened up communications to many
>>people who never would have had it before. For example, even in China,
one
>>of the more restricted countries in the world today, people are still
>>getting the word out about most anything. Even with the gov't trying to
>>stop it, things are still getting in and out. True, there are places
where
>>this is not true (try much of Africa for example), but it is changing as
we
>>speak. The world is much, much, much more connected than it ever was
>before
>>


Unfortunately, even though the internet is a good source of information,
it's also a great source of bulldrek. And people, seeing the negative in
everything, tend to think of anything and everything that comes off the net
as being bulldrek. Or fiction. It's not taken seriously yet, and so we can
rant and scream and rave and cry all we want here online about what our
governments are doing, but it won't do a bit of good. If you're really
concerned about what's going on, write the government. Real mail. And maybe
if you don't mention "I heard on the internet..." they might hear your
thoughts and give credence to your opinions. Especially if you can get
enough signatures on it. Remember everyone, this country was founded by
petitions. They have a proven track record of working. Try it.

Further Reading

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These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!