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Message no. 1
From: "David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Bending the rules (was Re: Outrageous goodguys..)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:11:46 -0800
<snip stuff about weapon foci and essence)

I wonder how many of us (as GMs that is) allow stuff for characters that,
technically, breaks the rules but comes up during the course of the game
and works out to be cool.

I, for one, let stuff go during the course of a campaign that I would never
allow as a character's backstory. "Let's see, your twin sister, who's a
toxic mood druid, has come to you in disguise and taught you the rules of
life magic (from ED) and given you the trigger to a stolen nuclear warhead
so that she can use you in a plot of revenge. Hmmm, why don't you go back
and work on that character a little moreŠ"

Just curious to see what other's allow.

D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@*********.com)
Photography/Design

Hey, there's a URL in my sig file now!
Check it out at: www.lowephoto.com.

--
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PS++ PE Y+ PGP- t 5 X+ R+++$ tv- b++ DI++ D--- G++ e++ h--- r++ u+
--
Message no. 2
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bending the rules (was Re: Outrageous goodguys..)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 16:17:49 -0500
On Fri, Dec 05, 1997 at 01:11:46PM -0800, David R. Lowe wrote:
> <snip stuff about weapon foci and essence)
>
> I wonder how many of us (as GMs that is) allow stuff for characters that,
> technically, breaks the rules but comes up during the course of the game
> and works out to be cool.
>
> I, for one, let stuff go during the course of a campaign that I would never
> allow as a character's backstory. "Let's see, your twin sister, who's a
> toxic mood druid, has come to you in disguise and taught you the rules of
> life magic (from ED) and given you the trigger to a stolen nuclear warhead
> so that she can use you in a plot of revenge. Hmmm, why don't you go back
> and work on that character a little more "
>
> Just curious to see what other's allow.
>
Very true. Particulary if you don't have time to double check a rule, because it will
disrupte the flow of the game. Some of our better runs and
ideas have come during this.
As long as everyone has fun,
it works well. After all isn't that the ultimate point of the whole
thing? The books are guidelines after all.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately it kills all of its students.
Message no. 3
From: Matthew Johnson <mjohnson@*.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bending the rules (was Re: Outrageous goodguys..)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:38:27 -0700
> From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
> On Fri, Dec 05, 1997 at 01:11:46PM -0800, David R. Lowe wrote:
> > I wonder how many of us (as GMs that is) allow stuff for characters
that,
> > technically, breaks the rules but comes up during the course of the
game
> > and works out to be cool.
> > Just curious to see what other's allow.
> >
> Very true. Particulary if you don't have time to double check a rule,
because it will disrupte the flow of the game. Some of our better runs and
> ideas have come during this.
> As long as everyone has fun,
> it works well. After all isn't that the ultimate point of the whole
> thing? The books are guidelines after all.
>
There are instances where this sometimes goes too far. In one of the more
recent case, a GM allowed someone to have Increase Attribute (not the same
as Increase (Attribute)), which could possibly be done if you raised the
drain level/target. The problem is he let the player learn it as a
permanent spell. Now, there's all sorts of problems. Not to mention some
players who are angry because they spent so much karma raising their
attributes, and some punk comes along with super attributes and didn't have
to spend karma even on spell locks.

---------------------------
Matthew Johnson
mjohnson@*.arizona.edu
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~mjohnson
ftp://150.135.184.121 login: anonymous pw: email
----------------------------
Message no. 4
From: "David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bending the rules (was Re: Outrageous goodguys..)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:59:27 -0800
At 4:17 PM 12/5/97, Lehlan Decker wrote:

> As long as everyone has fun,
>it works well. After all isn't that the ultimate point of the whole
>thing? The books are guidelines after all.
>


Watch what you're saying! There are folks on this list who would draw and
quarter you for such a statement. 'Course I agree with you completely.

D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@*********.com)
Photography/Design

Hey, there's a URL in my sig file now!
Check it out at: www.lowephoto.com.

--
GC3.1 GCA$ d- s: a- C++++ U P L E? W+ N++ o K? w-- O- M++$ V--
PS++ PE Y+ PGP- t 5 X+ R+++$ tv- b++ DI++ D--- G++ e++ h--- r++ u+
--
Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Bending the rules (was Re: Outrageous goodguys..)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 16:10:44 -0700
David R. Lowe wrote:
/
/ <snip stuff about weapon foci and essence)
/
/ I wonder how many of us (as GMs that is) allow stuff for characters that,
/ technically, breaks the rules but comes up during the course of the game
/ and works out to be cool.

I do it every know and then. One character currently has a staff that acts
as a spell focus for a long list of spells. It's one of three staffs that
will be present at the end of my campaign.

Another character has a dragon's skull that's somehow been shrunk to
the size of a (meta)human skull. It's been doing some odd things.

I had a dog following them around that was cybered to the gills but
wasn't insane.

I only do this with items/things that are plot devices. The staff
will play a part in a save the world adventure. The skull will give
clues to the characters about their being pawns in a game of
dragons. The dog carried a recording of the assasination of a mafia
don.

Also, if you run a game by the numbers it can get stale and the
players start to think of the GM as an equal. Well, you can't have
that happen ;)

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes.
Art is knowing which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 6
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Bending the rules (was Re: Outrageous goodguys..)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 01:17:55 +0000
> I wonder how many of us (as GMs that is) allow stuff for characters that,
> technically, breaks the rules but comes up during the course of the game
> and works out to be cool.

Well, usually I like stuff that isn't completely within the rules, as
it makes the game less predicable. This is also why I simply love to
invent new stuff (Keith should have noticed by now :)). What I don't
like it bending the rules to create a more powerful item. Write your
own gear that fits the SR universe is ok, creating a force 12 weapon
focus called "Uzi" isn't. I tend to go to lengths just to keep up
gamebalance (something that comes from playing without *any* balance
for much too long) and this does include neat unofficial toys.


> I, for one, let stuff go during the course of a campaign that I would never
> allow as a character's backstory. "Let's see, your twin sister, who's a
> toxic mood druid, has come to you in disguise and taught you the rules of
> life magic (from ED) and given you the trigger to a stolen nuclear warhead
> so that she can use you in a plot of revenge. Hmmm, why don't you go back
> and work on that character a little moreS"

You'll laugh, but I've seen something pretty close to that, and it
was written by the GM of that game for an inexperienced player.
Anyway, I'd get a chainsaw and drive that player out of town. If he
played with me for some time, I'd give up my RPG-life and become a
roadie for Marilyn Manson.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 7
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bending the rules (was Re: Outrageous goodguys..)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:06:56 -0500
At 01:11 PM 12/5/97 -0800, David R. Lowe wrote these timeless words:

>Just curious to see what other's allow.
>
Well, for the most part, I'll allow damned near anything. After all, I'm
the one who's got rules for Vampires, Windlings, and Disney Gargoyles! :]

However, I also require: A VERY good reason for anything unusual or overly
powerful. Also, I make it VERY clear that anything the players have or can
do, the bad guys can and will have, and will usually use it better :]

Funny, not one munchkin has asked for a Panther Assault Cannon since I
called one of my players on this point, and they ran into a group of Lone
Star FRT's in heavy Armor and ALL wielding PAC's :]

You should have seen the looks on my players faces when they turned the
corner to see that :]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka Chaos, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Cuddly Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
---- in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

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-Power Puff Girls
Message no. 8
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Bending the rules (was Re: Outrageous goodguys..)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:33:01 +1100
> toxic mood druid, has come to you in disguise and taught you the rules of
^^^^

*ROFL*

Does she change colours when your body temperature changes, then? :)

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
"All right! Bovine intervention!!!" -- The Tick
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Bending the rules (was Re: Outrageous goodguys..)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:33:09 +0000
>Well, for the most part, I'll allow damned near anything. After
>all..*snip*
I thought I did, too, for a while. Then I noticed I didn't. Too bad,
really. Then again, I didn't like any of the ideas much, finding them
unnecessary or munchkin. (If you can design something unusual within
the rules, isn't that better than making something new?). If someone
had a good idea, then I hope I would go for it. We'll see.

> Funny, not one munchkin has asked for a Panther Assault Cannon since I
> called one of my players on this point, and they ran into a group of Lone
> Star FRT's in heavy Armor and ALL wielding PAC's :]
>
> You should have seen the looks on my players faces when they turned the
> corner to see that :]

I expect the look was something qutie akin to the
'Oh shit we're dead' look players occassionally get. :)

A fun session, where I saw that a lot...

One the players, a physad by the name of 'Sting', had been captured
by an Ares team. The rest of the team, having completed the job,
traded him back by making a deal (returning the stolen prototype,
loosing some 200K cash in the process. When average pay for a run was
5-10K a head, it was a big loss. But it was a nice group at the time.
:)

So, he's back in business. Except his weapon foci (Sword, rating 4)
is in Ares hands. So he contacts his Mr. Johnson, which he knows
works for Ares, and hopes to pull a few strings to get it back.

Not that much later, a limo appears outside his home, and a company
man says, 'Come with me'. He does. In the car is the Johnson, a
bodyguard, and the sword. The company man gets into the driver's
seat, and they're off.

Mr. Johnson has a host of questions he wants answered. In a bad way.
He has found out about (long story involving a sort of magical
group) through hints in earlier calls, and want to know more. A lot
more. Sting starts talking - he feels he owes the guy, and also wants
the sword back. He has a geas on him, which, if he talks too much,
detonates a fireball on him.

He talks too much. He spends most of his karma pool on rerolls to
survive. The Johnson is killed by it, but the bodyguard is barely
touched. The bodyguard thinks Sting set it off on purpose (since he's
unhurt by it) and shoots him, twice, gut shots. (The rest of the
pool goes, and some is burnt to reduce the damage.). He draws the
sword and cuts the guard in two. Okay, danger over now, right?

Well..
luckily, the company man was killed by the fireball too.
Unluckily, he was the driver.
Luckily the car doesn't hit any other car.
Unluckily it goes over the edge of the road.
Luckily, it doesn't hit anything.
Unluckily, that's because there isn't anything to hit.

After falling off the bridge, the car lands on its roof, and Sting
crawls out, now at S+M, after burning some more karma.

He sighs, relieved, 'God, I'm alive!'.

Then the gas tank explodes.

Suffice to say, he was not having a good day.

(The more perceptive among you may have noticed that I use a house
rule where you can burn karma pool which has been 'used'.).
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 10
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bending the rules (was Re: Outrageous goodguys..)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:54:54 -0500
On Fri, Dec 05, 1997 at 02:38:27PM -0700, Matthew Johnson wrote:
> > From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
> > On Fri, Dec 05, 1997 at 01:11:46PM -0800, David R. Lowe wrote:
> > > I wonder how many of us (as GMs that is) allow stuff for characters
> that,
> > > technically, breaks the rules but comes up during the course of the
> game
> > > and works out to be cool.
> > > Just curious to see what other's allow.
> > >
> > Very true. Particulary if you don't have time to double check a rule,
> because it will disrupte the flow of the game. Some of our better runs and
> > ideas have come during this.
> > As long as everyone has fun,
> > it works well. After all isn't that the ultimate point of the whole
> > thing? The books are guidelines after all.
> >
> There are instances where this sometimes goes too far. In one of the more
> recent case, a GM allowed someone to have Increase Attribute (not the same
> as Increase (Attribute)), which could possibly be done if you raised the
> drain level/target. The problem is he let the player learn it as a
> permanent spell. Now, there's all sorts of problems. Not to mention some
> players who are angry because they spent so much karma raising their
> attributes, and some punk comes along with super attributes and didn't have
> to spend karma even on spell locks.
>
I've seen this one as well. In odd cases, I'll tell my players
the is the way it works for now, and I'll give them a permanent ruling
on the issue next game session after I've double checked etc..
(I have a notebook of permamnent rulings. :))
They seem to be fine with this.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately it kills all of its students.
Message no. 11
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bending the rules (was Re: Outrageous goodguys..)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:04:30 -0500
On Sat, Dec 06, 1997 at 07:33:01PM +1100, Lady Jestyr wrote:
> > toxic mood druid, has come to you in disguise and taught you the rules of
> ^^^^
>
> *ROFL*
>
> Does she change colours when your body temperature changes, then? :)
>
AcK! Now there is a sick, demented thought. (In less your into
that kind of thing of course) :)


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately it kills all of its students.
Message no. 12
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bending the rules (was Re: Outrageous goodguys..)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:55:40 -0500
On Fri, Dec 05, 1997 at 01:59:27PM -0800, David R. Lowe wrote:
> At 4:17 PM 12/5/97, Lehlan Decker wrote:
>
> > As long as everyone has fun,
> >it works well. After all isn't that the ultimate point of the whole
> >thing? The books are guidelines after all.
> >
>
>
> Watch what you're saying! There are folks on this list who would draw and
> quarter you for such a statement. 'Course I agree with you completely.
>
Heh..what's life without a little risk. Besides if you can't have
friendly arguments with your Shadowrn list, who can you argue with. :)


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately it kills all of its students.

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