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Message no. 1
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Betaware
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:25:16 -0500
Ok I know fighter planes cost much less in SR (in fact most weapon systems
cost less then they really should) but I was just thinking about the
avalibility of Betaware and pilots. If it costs a million dollars to
train you and you fly a 50 million dollar aircraft the 2.5 mil for a beta
rig 3 dosn't look so bad (using the cyber rules that make it unlikely most
people will want to go below 3). That would make rigged 3 much more
common in comercial sectors and mean that beta riged 3 would not be as
hard to find as other beta ware.


Just wondering what can riggers use a task pool for. I'm imagining a
gunner in the back seat with either rigged 2 or 3 and a large task pool
guiding in missiles.

SteveD
Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:49:16 +1000
Stephen Delear writes:
>Ok I know fighter planes cost much less in SR (in fact most weapon systems
>cost less then they really should) but I was just thinking about the
>avalibility of Betaware and pilots. If it costs a million dollars to
>train you and you fly a 50 million dollar aircraft the 2.5 mil for a beta
>rig 3 dosn't look so bad (using the cyber rules that make it unlikely most
>people will want to go below 3). That would make rigged 3 much more
>common in comercial sectors and mean that beta riged 3 would not be as
>hard to find as other beta ware.


Hence, cyberware with "activation keys". E.G. the rigger has a VCR 3 (beta,
natch), but it can only be used when the vehicle/control deck he's using
responds correctly. Protects the investment of the guv'mint or corp in the
rigger.

I also have a cyberware option, "Removable", which costs 10% more in
Essence, but reduces the complexity involved in removing cyber (1 less
damage code in the surgery, no chance of the surgery stuffing up in
removing). This in turn "encourages" corps to put cyber in their wageslaves,
as it's easier to remove it when they leave. Note that Removable only
applies to _augmentations_, not replacements. So you could have Removable
Wired Reflexes, or a Smartgun Link, but not a Removable cybereye or cyberarm
(though the mods to those could be Removable).

>Just wondering what can riggers use a task pool for. I'm imagining a
>gunner in the back seat with either rigged 2 or 3 and a large task pool
>guiding in missiles.


Yep, that's what it's for. Or, a slightly better example: a rigger
controlling a tank could use the main gun to engage a target, the
anti-personnel weapons to deal with an infantry patrol it just flushed out
from cover, and launch a SAM at the attack helicopter that just appeared on
his sensors: all more effectively than the 3 people who would have to do
that now (not that modern tanks pack SAMs, but you know what I mean). In the
BBB, the rigger can use his task pool for nearly anything that's controlled
through his rig. Dunno about what it says in RB2, though.

--
sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 07:40:32 -0600
Stephen Delear wrote:
/
/ Ok I know fighter planes cost much less in SR (in fact most weapon systems
/ cost less then they really should) but I was just thinking about the
/ avalibility of Betaware and pilots. If it costs a million dollars to
/ train you and you fly a 50 million dollar aircraft the 2.5 mil for a beta
/ rig 3 dosn't look so bad (using the cyber rules that make it unlikely most
/ people will want to go below 3). That would make rigged 3 much more
/ common in comercial sectors and mean that beta riged 3 would not be as
/ hard to find as other beta ware.

But, why would the penny pinching military buy Beta when Alpha does
the job?

-David
--
"Deus meus! Kennyum iste mortus! ..Bastardus!"
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 4
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:24:36 -0700
----------
> From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Betaware
> Date: Tuesday, April 21, 1998 10:25 PM
>
> Ok I know fighter planes cost much less in SR (in fact most weapon
systems
> cost less then they really should) but I was just thinking about the
> avalibility of Betaware and pilots. If it costs a million dollars to
> train you and you fly a 50 million dollar aircraft the 2.5 mil for a beta
> rig 3 dosn't look so bad (using the cyber rules that make it unlikely
most
> people will want to go below 3). That would make rigged 3 much more
> common in comercial sectors and mean that beta riged 3 would not be as
> hard to find as other beta ware.
>
>

I suppose beta rigged wouldn't be that hard. Finding a clinic that won't
botch putting it in might be, though. Unless you want Bob the Street Sammy
to use his Biotech 3 and his Medkit to put it in.

Also, I don't quite recall (left SS2 at home), but aren't there surgical
procedures that they do in addition to the mechanical part that make it
Beta quality? Or am I getting it mixed up with Gamma quality? Or am I
just talking out my ass? =)

> Just wondering what can riggers use a task pool for. I'm imagining a
> gunner in the back seat with either rigged 2 or 3 and a large task pool
> guiding in missiles.
>

Whipping out the copy of Shadowtech I've been lugging around (I've been
working on a rigger, recently. =)), I see that a Task Pool (which you get
with higher-end Cerebral Booster and Encephalon) can be used for:

Technical, Knowledge, and B/R skills.

Guiding missiles would not fall under this catagory, but re-wiring,
designing, fixing, and jury rigging missles would. In the example you're
looking at, the only dice pool available to him would be his Control Pool.
Rigger 2 has the Control Pool based off of your reaction, so the same
cyberware that gives you a Task Pool would indirectly raise your control
pool by boosting your Intelligence.

Hope this helps.
Message no. 5
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:46:05 -0700
----------
> From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Betaware
> Date: Tuesday, April 21, 1998 10:49 PM
>
> I also have a cyberware option, "Removable", which costs 10% more in
> Essence, but reduces the complexity involved in removing cyber (1 less
> damage code in the surgery, no chance of the surgery stuffing up in
> removing). This in turn "encourages" corps to put cyber in their
wageslaves,
> as it's easier to remove it when they leave. Note that Removable only
> applies to _augmentations_, not replacements. So you could have Removable
> Wired Reflexes, or a Smartgun Link, but not a Removable cybereye or
cyberarm
> (though the mods to those could be Removable).
>

Ooo... I kinda like that idea.

> >Just wondering what can riggers use a task pool for. I'm imagining a
> >gunner in the back seat with either rigged 2 or 3 and a large task pool
> >guiding in missiles.
>
>
> Yep, that's what it's for. Or, a slightly better example: a rigger
> controlling a tank could use the main gun to engage a target, the
> anti-personnel weapons to deal with an infantry patrol it just flushed
out
> from cover, and launch a SAM at the attack helicopter that just appeared
on
> his sensors: all more effectively than the 3 people who would have to do
> that now (not that modern tanks pack SAMs, but you know what I mean). In
the
> BBB, the rigger can use his task pool for nearly anything that's
controlled
> through his rig. Dunno about what it says in RB2, though.
>

Eh... what? I think y'all are getting Task Pool and Control Pool mixed up.
I'm guessing that BBB is the main rules (Big Black Book?), in which case
it doesn't appear there at all. Riggers get a Control Pool with their VCR
that allows them to do all that you describe. The Task Pool, on the other
hand, appears in Shadowtech, and you get it when you get the big
intelligence boosting cyberware and bioware. The most you can get, AFAIK,
is 4. That's unless Cybertechnology has more goodies that grant a task
pool. I don't remember whether or not they do. In order to get the
biggest Task Pool possible, you'd have to get a level 4 Encephalon and a
level 2 Cerebral Booster. The Task Pool is usable for Tech, Knowlege, and
B/R skills. The thing for your the die hard DIYer. My only regret is that
the rigger I'm working on can't afford to get maxed out on his Encephalon.
=( The only changes to it listed in RB2 is that you can now also use it
for Electronic Warfare that they explain in great detail in the book.
Whee. =)

Oh, and the Task Pool is not to be confused with the Task Bonus in VR2.0. =)
Message no. 6
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:21:07 -0500
At 07:40 AM 98-04-22 -0600, you wrote:
>Stephen Delear wrote:
>/
>/ Ok I know fighter planes cost much less in SR (in fact most weapon systems
>/ cost less then they really should) but I was just thinking about the
>/ avalibility of Betaware and pilots. If it costs a million dollars to
>/ train you and you fly a 50 million dollar aircraft the 2.5 mil for a beta
>/ rig 3 dosn't look so bad (using the cyber rules that make it unlikely most
>/ people will want to go below 3). That would make rigged 3 much more
>/ common in comercial sectors and mean that beta riged 3 would not be as
>/ hard to find as other beta ware.
>
>But, why would the penny pinching military buy Beta when Alpha does
>the job?
>

Because depending on which rule book you use going below 3 essence is a bad
thing which may or may not impact the soldiers performance in a variety of
situations. This would make it hard to find qualified recruits willing to
be cybered to certain levels as well as possibly dangerouse (nobody cares
if all that crome makes your street sam a tad bit psyco wouldn't want him
flying a multimillion dollar fighter aircraft though). Basically role
playing reasons as well as the fact that betaware is less subseptable to
damage.


SteveD


>-David
>--
>"Deus meus! Kennyum iste mortus! ..Bastardus!"
>--
>ShadowRN GridSec
>email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
>http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
>
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 7
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:29:51 -0500
>
>
>Whipping out the copy of Shadowtech I've been lugging around (I've been
>working on a rigger, recently. =)), I see that a Task Pool (which you get
>with higher-end Cerebral Booster and Encephalon) can be used for:
>
>Technical, Knowledge, and B/R skills.
>
>Guiding missiles would not fall under this catagory, but re-wiring,
>designing, fixing, and jury rigging missles would. In the example you're
>looking at, the only dice pool available to him would be his Control Pool.
>Rigger 2 has the Control Pool based off of your reaction, so the same
>cyberware that gives you a Task Pool would indirectly raise your control
>pool by boosting your Intelligence.

Yes but I think you can use a task pool with drones somehow. I'll have to
look it up.
>
>Hope this helps.
>
SteveD
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 8
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:32:31 -0700
----------
> From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Betaware
> Date: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 1:29 PM
>
> >
> >
> >Whipping out the copy of Shadowtech I've been lugging around (I've been
> >working on a rigger, recently. =)), I see that a Task Pool (which you
get
> >with higher-end Cerebral Booster and Encephalon) can be used for:
> >
> >Technical, Knowledge, and B/R skills.
> >
> >Guiding missiles would not fall under this catagory, but re-wiring,
> >designing, fixing, and jury rigging missles would. In the example
you're
> >looking at, the only dice pool available to him would be his Control
Pool.
> >Rigger 2 has the Control Pool based off of your reaction, so the same
> >cyberware that gives you a Task Pool would indirectly raise your control
> >pool by boosting your Intelligence.
>
> Yes but I think you can use a task pool with drones somehow. I'll have
to
> look it up.

If you could find that that'd be cool. I looked in RB2, and the only thing
that it adds onto there is stuff having to do with electronic warfare...
I'm not that familiar with stuff like the Lone Star book, so it may have
popped up there or something.
Message no. 9
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:46:05 -0500
>
>Eh... what? I think y'all are getting Task Pool and Control Pool mixed up.
> I'm guessing that BBB is the main rules (Big Black Book?), in which case
>it doesn't appear there at all. Riggers get a Control Pool with their VCR
>that allows them to do all that you describe. The Task Pool, on the other
>hand, appears in Shadowtech, and you get it when you get the big
>intelligence boosting cyberware and bioware. The most you can get, AFAIK,
>is 4. That's unless Cybertechnology has more goodies that grant a task
>pool. I don't remember whether or not they do. In order to get the
>biggest Task Pool possible, you'd have to get a level 4 Encephalon and a
>level 2 Cerebral Booster. The Task Pool is usable for Tech, Knowlege, and
>B/R skills. The thing for your the die hard DIYer. My only regret is that
>the rigger I'm working on can't afford to get maxed out on his Encephalon.
>=( The only changes to it listed in RB2 is that you can now also use it
>for Electronic Warfare that they explain in great detail in the book.
>Whee. =)

"Task pool is imprortant to riggers because players can add task pool dice
to eletronics test, which come into plya in remote control, sensor and
electronics warfare" (R2 16). This seems to imply you can add task pool to
sensor tests (paying more attention to your redouts) and to drone
comprehension tests.

SteveD
>
>Oh, and the Task Pool is not to be confused with the Task Bonus in VR2.0. =)
>
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 10
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:53:37 -0700
----------
> From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Betaware
> Date: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 1:46 PM
>
> >
> >Eh... what? I think y'all are getting Task Pool and Control Pool mixed
up.
> > I'm guessing that BBB is the main rules (Big Black Book?), in which
case
> >it doesn't appear there at all. Riggers get a Control Pool with their
VCR
> >that allows them to do all that you describe. The Task Pool, on the
other
> >hand, appears in Shadowtech, and you get it when you get the big
> >intelligence boosting cyberware and bioware. The most you can get,
AFAIK,
> >is 4. That's unless Cybertechnology has more goodies that grant a task
> >pool. I don't remember whether or not they do. In order to get the
> >biggest Task Pool possible, you'd have to get a level 4 Encephalon and a
> >level 2 Cerebral Booster. The Task Pool is usable for Tech, Knowlege,
and
> >B/R skills. The thing for your the die hard DIYer. My only regret is
that
> >the rigger I'm working on can't afford to get maxed out on his
Encephalon.
> >=( The only changes to it listed in RB2 is that you can now also use it
> >for Electronic Warfare that they explain in great detail in the book.
> >Whee. =)
>
> "Task pool is imprortant to riggers because players can add task pool
dice
> to eletronics test, which come into plya in remote control, sensor and
> electronics warfare" (R2 16). This seems to imply you can add task pool
to
> sensor tests (paying more attention to your redouts) and to drone
> comprehension tests.
>

I guess that's what i get for skimming. =) Hmmm... I'll need to read the
gunnery rules more closely so I can figure out how this impacts it.
Thanks!
Message no. 11
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:28:02 EDT
In a message dated 4/22/98 12:28:47 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU writes:

> Just wondering what can riggers use a task pool for. I'm imagining a
> gunner in the back seat with either rigged 2 or 3 and a large task pool
> guiding in missiles.
>
Depending upon the Task Pool in question and what it influences, they could be
very useful in all sorts of situations.

1) We've put BattleTAC skill in the "Technical Field", and hence those task
pools for Technical skills work here.

2) Radio Sciences and Sensor Operations are the same boat as BattleTAC above.

3) Any/All of the MIJI rules in our opinion helps, especially the Encephalon
and SPU (Math) bonuses.

4) Along the same lines as above, Lock On tests for weapons are part of
Sensor Operations. The reverse in our opinion is true as well, trying to
electronically break a lock on as well.

Those are just a few of our ideas...
-K
Message no. 12
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:32:07 EDT
In a message dated 4/22/98 12:53:10 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
robert.watkins@******.COM writes:

> I also have a cyberware option, "Removable", which costs 10% more in
> Essence, but reduces the complexity involved in removing cyber (1 less
> damage code in the surgery, no chance of the surgery stuffing up in
> removing). This in turn "encourages" corps to put cyber in their
wageslaves,
> as it's easier to remove it when they leave. Note that Removable only
> applies to _augmentations_, not replacements. So you could have Removable
> Wired Reflexes, or a Smartgun Link, but not a Removable cybereye or
cyberarm
> (though the mods to those could be Removable).
>
Those couple of comparisons are interesting. IMO, it would have been the
other way around. Eyes and Limbs are removable on a far easier basis that
"big implant work" like Wired Reflexes and the like. Actually, the concept of
"Modular Cyberlimbs" would go a long towards this.

"Why certainly you can quit, but we'll take back that VCD-8 with Power Amp 4
arm there and give you this completely street legal variation. What's that?
Well of course it doesn't have the enhanced attributes, we don't want you
getting into any kind of trouble, now dow we???"

-K
Message no. 13
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:48:43 +1000
Ereskanti writes:
[My snip on Removable cyber snipped]

>Those couple of comparisons are interesting. IMO, it would have been the
>other way around. Eyes and Limbs are removable on a far easier basis that
>"big implant work" like Wired Reflexes and the like. Actually, the concept
of
>"Modular Cyberlimbs" would go a long towards this.

The reason I did it this way is because no power could force a corp to
actually replace removed cyber from their former employees. So replacements
(things that you can't do without) aren't designed to be removeable.
Augmentations are. The difficulty in the "big implant work" is mitigated by
the 10% Essence increase.

Note that this is a fairly big hit. Even with an "average" doc, removal of
cyber isn't likely to hit you for another 10% Essence.

Because you can get the mods to "replacement" cyber in a Removable form, you
could give them a standard cyber arm, and then put in Removeable mods. When
they leave, they keep the cyber arm (as "payment" for them giving up their
Essence), but lose the mods. Presumably, a rigger, who is giving up his
VCR-3, would get a cash compensation (at the time of removal, to act as an
incentive to play nice).

(The incentive to do this, from the corps, is that Removable cyber is
inherently re-usable...)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 14
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:03:08 +0100
At 22-Apr-98 wrote Stephen Delear:


>train you and you fly a 50 million dollar aircraft the 2.5 mil for a beta
>rig 3 dosn't look so bad (using the cyber rules that make it unlikely most
>people will want to go below 3).

Don`t forget the surgery cost, for a beta rig 3 its 12.5 mils :)
--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 15
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:21:49 +1000
Barbie writes:
>>train you and you fly a 50 million dollar aircraft the 2.5 mil for a beta
>>rig 3 dosn't look so bad (using the cyber rules that make it unlikely most
>>people will want to go below 3).
>
>Don`t forget the surgery cost, for a beta rig 3 its 12.5 mils :)


Don't forget that that's for you to hire a _private_ surgeon, in a _private_
clinic, and that's to do something that's probably _illegal_ (given that
there's no street index). I'd imagine that a military organisation, with
surgeons on hand (on much lower salaries), and with their own clinics
already as part of the overhead, could do it a fair bit cheaper.

If you like, think of the 12.5 million as the price with the street index
(which, IMHO, would probably run at about 100). Looks a lot more attractive
now.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 16
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:33:25 -0500
At 01:03 AM 98-04-23 +0100, you wrote:
>At 22-Apr-98 wrote Stephen Delear:
>
>
>>train you and you fly a 50 million dollar aircraft the 2.5 mil for a beta
>>rig 3 dosn't look so bad (using the cyber rules that make it unlikely most
>>people will want to go below 3).
>
>Don`t forget the surgery cost, for a beta rig 3 its 12.5 mils :)

Can you quote me a pagenumber on that. Quite frankly I can't find any
info on cybersurgery costs anywhere.

SteveD
>--
>
>Barbie
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
>All that is left from the unicorn.
>
>http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
>FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
>Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:47:10 +0100
Stephen Delear said on 20:33/22 Apr 98...

> >Don`t forget the surgery cost, for a beta rig 3 its 12.5 mils :)
>
> Can you quote me a pagenumber on that. Quite frankly I can't find any
> info on cybersurgery costs anywhere.

SSC page 99 ("Doctor's fees and hospitalization are 50 times the rates
listed on page 145 of the Shadowrun basic rules" it says in my
first-edition SSC) and Cybertechnology page 44, which has the exact same
sentence, although it should really refer to page 53 of Cybertechnology,
as costs for surgery were somehow dropped from SRII and thankfully
reintroduced in CT.

Anyway, the cost for drastic invasive surgery (needed to implant a VCR-3)
is 250,000 nuyen. Multiplied by 50, you get 12.5 million, excluding the
money you need to stay in the hospital to recover...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
going down thinking
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 18
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:24:15 -0500
At 11:47 AM 98-04-23 +0100, you wrote:
>Stephen Delear said on 20:33/22 Apr 98...
>
>> >Don`t forget the surgery cost, for a beta rig 3 its 12.5 mils :)
>>
>> Can you quote me a pagenumber on that. Quite frankly I can't find any
>> info on cybersurgery costs anywhere.
>
>SSC page 99 ("Doctor's fees and hospitalization are 50 times the rates
>listed on page 145 of the Shadowrun basic rules" it says in my
>first-edition SSC) and Cybertechnology page 44, which has the exact same
>sentence, although it should really refer to page 53 of Cybertechnology,
>as costs for surgery were somehow dropped from SRII and thankfully
>reintroduced in CT.
>
>Anyway, the cost for drastic invasive surgery (needed to implant a VCR-3)
>is 250,000 nuyen. Multiplied by 50, you get 12.5 million, excluding the
>money you need to stay in the hospital to recover...

Some mechanics make less sence then others. First of all if this were
enforced wired 2 would cost 415,000 and a VCR 2 310,000 I'm not even
going to try and compute a C-2 decks cost. It's just as bad for any from
of level 2 dermal (armor, sheathing or bone lacing). I guess if you want to
run a game with a lot less cyber this would be a good idea. In fact even
boosted 2 now costs 290,000. A smartlinks are now now 28,000. I suspect
the reason it got pulled from SR2 is that playtesting found it put many
highly used peices of cyber out to site. And 12.5 mil for most forms of
sergury (at least one that's all ready been performed somewhere else on
someone else) is rediculouse.

SteveD
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
> going down thinking
>-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
>-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
>-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-
>
>-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
>Version 3.1:
>GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
>Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
>------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
>
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 19
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:29:35 -0700
----------
> From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Betaware
> Date: Thursday, April 23, 1998 1:24 PM
>
> At 11:47 AM 98-04-23 +0100, you wrote:
> >Stephen Delear said on 20:33/22 Apr 98...
> >
>
> Some mechanics make less sence then others. First of all if this were
> enforced wired 2 would cost 415,000 and a VCR 2 310,000 I'm not even
> going to try and compute a C-2 decks cost. It's just as bad for any
from
> of level 2 dermal (armor, sheathing or bone lacing). I guess if you want
to
> run a game with a lot less cyber this would be a good idea. In fact even
> boosted 2 now costs 290,000. A smartlinks are now now 28,000. I suspect
> the reason it got pulled from SR2 is that playtesting found it put many
> highly used peices of cyber out to site. And 12.5 mil for most forms of
> sergury (at least one that's all ready been performed somewhere else on
> someone else) is rediculouse.
>

I'm a few miles from my nearest copy of the street sammy catalog, so I
can't look this up: Isn't there more to Alpha, Beta, and Gamma than just
really nice machinery? I thought there were extensive "essence friendly"
procedures involved in the surgery. It's been a while since I looked at
the rules for it, but I feel like I've seen it somewhere before. *shrug*
Message no. 20
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:24:42 -0500
At 01:29 PM 98-04-23 -0700, you wrote:
>----------
>> From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
>> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
>> Subject: Re: Betaware
>> Date: Thursday, April 23, 1998 1:24 PM
>>
>> At 11:47 AM 98-04-23 +0100, you wrote:
>> >Stephen Delear said on 20:33/22 Apr 98...
>> >
>>
>> Some mechanics make less sence then others. First of all if this were
>> enforced wired 2 would cost 415,000 and a VCR 2 310,000 I'm not even
>> going to try and compute a C-2 decks cost. It's just as bad for any
>from
>> of level 2 dermal (armor, sheathing or bone lacing). I guess if you want
>to
>> run a game with a lot less cyber this would be a good idea. In fact even
>> boosted 2 now costs 290,000. A smartlinks are now now 28,000. I suspect
>> the reason it got pulled from SR2 is that playtesting found it put many
>> highly used peices of cyber out to site. And 12.5 mil for most forms of
>> sergury (at least one that's all ready been performed somewhere else on
>> someone else) is rediculouse.
>>
>
>I'm a few miles from my nearest copy of the street sammy catalog, so I
>can't look this up: Isn't there more to Alpha, Beta, and Gamma than just
>really nice machinery? I thought there were extensive "essence friendly"
>procedures involved in the surgery. It's been a while since I looked at
>the rules for it, but I feel like I've seen it somewhere before. *shrug*
>

Actually those were the prices for REGULAR cyberware with surgery figured in.

SteveD
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 21
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:33:56 -0700
> >I'm a few miles from my nearest copy of the street sammy catalog, so I
> >can't look this up: Isn't there more to Alpha, Beta, and Gamma than just
> >really nice machinery? I thought there were extensive "essence
friendly"
> >procedures involved in the surgery. It's been a while since I looked at
> >the rules for it, but I feel like I've seen it somewhere before.
*shrug*
> >
>
> Actually those were the prices for REGULAR cyberware with surgery figured
in.
>
>

Yeah, I got that for those... I was mostly wondering about the 12.5 million
figure... trying to think of some rational behind why they'd multiply the
surgery cost on that one.
Message no. 22
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 22:23:09 EDT
In a message dated 4/23/98 3:25:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU writes:

> I suspect
> the reason it got pulled from SR2 is that playtesting found it put many
> highly used peices of cyber out to site. And 12.5 mil for most forms of
> sergury (at least one that's all ready been performed somewhere else on
> someone else) is rediculouse.
>

Actually, some other things have made sense for this in other books. In the
FoF or Corporate Security, it mentions the Dealer, who can get certain
materials at a MUCH reduced rate (aka, reducing the street index modifiers and
the like).

The X50 cost mod is for "straight out/up" costs with standard level contacts,
at least IMO. Certain contacts would make this more interesting of
course....say a "Corporate Clinic: Alpha" or something similar.

-K
Message no. 23
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Betaware
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:41:06 -0500
>
> Re: Betaware (Gurth , Thu 5:47)
>
> Stephen Delear said on 20:33/22 Apr 98...
>
> > >Don`t forget the surgery cost, for a beta rig 3 its 12.5 mils :)
> >
> > Can you quote me a pagenumber on that. Quite frankly I can't find any
> > info on cybersurgery costs anywhere.
>
> SSC page 99 ("Doctor's fees and hospitalization are 50 times the rates
> listed on page 145 of the Shadowrun basic rules" it says in my
> first-edition SSC) and Cybertechnology page 44, which has the exact same
> sentence, although it should really refer to page 53 of Cybertechnology,
> as costs for surgery were somehow dropped from SRII and thankfully
> reintroduced in CT.
>

I think "doctors fees" are the cost of doctors services listed on P.113
of SR2. I don't think surgery costs are supposed to increase for
various wares: you'd think such a HUGE cost would be mentioned.
Instead, it is rather the opposite- SSC states you can't transfer to a
cheper clinic after surgery tosave money, and if surgery in black
clinics were more expensive, this would not save much money.
IMO,the impantation of custom ware is pretty much standard
cyber-surgery; easier, in fact, given the lower essence cost. Its the
construction and the "theraputic integration" that reduces essesnce
cost- instead of just cranking up the all the wires in your wired
reflexes,they sift through the 500,000 low impact microjunctures to find
the 5000 that work the best, with the least juice. Thats also part of
what makes the ware more durable.

> Anyway, the cost for drastic invasive surgery (needed to implant a VCR-3)
> is 250,000 nuyen. Multiplied by 50, you get 12.5 million, excluding the
> money you need to stay in the hospital to recover...
>

As I said, I don't think surgery cost is subject to that, as it is not a
doctors fee or hospitalization cost (as per the medical costs table).
Just paying 50 times doctors fees of 400 + Intensive care costs of 1000
per day while healing a deadly surgical wound gets costly enough.....

-mongoose

Further Reading

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