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Message no. 1
From: Ahrain Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 03:30:33 -0400
I just finished watching Godzilla (the new one) again. Decent enough movie,
but I was wondering...exactly how would you do Godzilla as a critter in SR?

I mean, yes SR has a few BIG critters; Great Dragons, Juggernauts,
Behemoths, Megalodons, etc. but how would you do some thing THAT big? I
personally don't think using the stats for any of the above would really
work.

So my question is this: How would you, as GM's, make the stats for a
Godzilla sized/type critter? (if it were to strike your fancy to do so).

Just off the top of my head.

S 90
Q 8 x 10
B 28 Naval (regular weapons did NOTHING! only heavy sidewinder<?> missiles
and then it took 12 of them.
C Don't make me laugh
I 3/5
W 4
E 6
R 5 *
Damage 16SN

Like I said, just off the top of my head, this early in the morning.

This brings me to another question. Do you think some of the larger
critters should/could be treated as vehicles for damage purposes? Naval
scale even? If so which ones, Megalodons, great dragons?

Just my perverse ramblings at 3:30 am

Ahrain
Message no. 2
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:00:15 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Ahrain <Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 5:30 PM
Subject: BIG! Critters


>I just finished watching Godzilla (the new one) again. Decent enough
movie,
>but I was wondering...exactly how would you do Godzilla as a critter in SR?
>
>I mean, yes SR has a few BIG critters; Great Dragons, Juggernauts,
>Behemoths, Megalodons, etc. but how would you do some thing THAT big? I
>personally don't think using the stats for any of the above would really
>work.
>
>So my question is this: How would you, as GM's, make the stats for a
>Godzilla sized/type critter? (if it were to strike your fancy to do so).
>


Once again I won't answer, but instead go on about something else. A radio
science guru in Australia, Dr Karl Krisoniski (I'm not even going to try for
proper spelling there), spent quite a long time proving that something
Godzilla size couldn't possibly walk, move or breathe, since it's mass would
be way too great. Then again, dragons.

>Like I said, just off the top of my head, this early in the morning.
>
>This brings me to another question. Do you think some of the larger
>critters should/could be treated as vehicles for damage purposes? Naval
>scale even? If so which ones, Megalodons, great dragons?
>
I'd say that's fair, but then again, drones are considered vehicles, and
some of them are smaller than dwarfs. Has anyone had a firefight with a blue
whale?
Message no. 3
From: Ahrain Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 04:11:02 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Simon and Fiona <sfuller@******.com.au>
Subject: Re: BIG! Critters


> Once again I won't answer, but instead go on about something else. A radio
> science guru in Australia, Dr Karl Krisoniski (I'm not even going to try
for
> proper spelling there), spent quite a long time proving that something
> Godzilla size couldn't possibly walk, move or breathe, since it's mass
would
> be way too great. Then again, dragons.
>

I understand the concept, about gravitic stress and all, but like you said,
Dragons...? Even though Dragons have been PARTIALLY explained as highly
improbable but not ABSOLUTELY impossible in A Flight of Dragons, IIRC.

Ahrain
Message no. 4
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 03:47:38 -0500
From: "Ahrain" <Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com>
Subject: Re: BIG! Critters
> From: Simon and Fiona <sfuller@******.com.au>
> Subject: Re: BIG! Critters
> > Once again I won't answer, but instead go on about something else. A
radio
> > science guru in Australia, Dr Karl Krisoniski (I'm not even going to try
> for
> > proper spelling there), spent quite a long time proving that something
> > Godzilla size couldn't possibly walk, move or breathe, since it's mass
> would
> > be way too great. Then again, dragons.
> I understand the concept, about gravitic stress and all, but like you
said,
> Dragons...? Even though Dragons have been PARTIALLY explained as highly
> improbable but not ABSOLUTELY impossible in A Flight of Dragons, IIRC.

The Flight of Dragons concept would entirely work, but it was without a
doubt one of the most fantastical explanations ever.

Now as far Godzilla, and other critters of similar scale ... there are
methods of making them possible. THE biggest one is simply using the
concept of the original legend that "Godzilla" comes from. The sea-dragon
Gojira (sp?). The larger, more powerful, great dragons could easily enter
that scale of power and size were they allowed to do so.

There is also a consideration that if a creature were capable of operating
within the extremes of climate variation as Godzilla would be, that it's
body structure might actually be able to support itself easily enough.

As for how to give them stats, yeah you could probably just start assigning
them numbers ... whatever suited your needs really. Personally I'd just
role-play it out as a decision making process and go from there. Should it
step on you, you'll probably die. Should it look at you, your heart will
probably skip a few steps as you consider the position of the shrimp to the
cocktail bowl... that sort of things :)

-Keith
Message no. 5
From: paul collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:37:18 +1000
----- Original Message -----
From: NeoJudas <neojudas@******************.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: BIG! Critters


> From: "Ahrain" <Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com>
> Subject: Re: BIG! Critters
> > From: Simon and Fiona <sfuller@******.com.au>
> > Subject: Re: BIG! Critters
> > > Once again I won't answer, but instead go on about something else. A
> radio
> > > science guru in Australia, Dr Karl Krisoniski (I'm not even going to
try
> > for
> > > proper spelling there),

Kruszelnicki
http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/



<Snip>.
>
> Now as far Godzilla, and other critters of similar scale ... there are
> methods of making them possible. THE biggest one is simply using the
> concept of the original legend that "Godzilla" comes from. The sea-dragon
> Gojira (sp?). The larger, more powerful, great dragons could easily enter
> that scale of power and size were they allowed to do so.
>
> There is also a consideration that if a creature were capable of operating
> within the extremes of climate variation as Godzilla would be, that it's
> body structure might actually be able to support itself easily enough.

Actually I think it's more that the ground won't support the weight. But
hey, Magic cures that problem doesn't it?
After all, the critter will need magic to exist at all.




Paul Collins


Spare the Duc Tape, Spoil the job
Message no. 6
From: Rookie tmathena@*******.net
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 06:54:37 -0700
> B 28 Naval (regular weapons did NOTHING! only heavy
> sidewinder<?> missiles
> and then it took 12 of them.
> C Don't make me laugh
> I 3/5
> W 4
> E 6
> R 5 *
> Damage 16SN
>

One thing that some shadowrunners have that the Navy of the 20th Century
didn't...............Magic!!!!!! Willpower of 5..It'll be dropped like a hat
from a combat shaman or mage....

I can just see it...
Big nasty running through Seattle buildings being destroyed. The Star unable
to do anything to this creature with there weapons. UCAS fighters 5 minutes
away....A little Wolf Shaman steps out of the Shadows....."Here lizard,
lizard, lizard ,lizard" Big blue streak of Energy strikes the lizard. Lizard
screams in pain and falls to the ground......Little street shaman has a
small headache...
Little wolf shaman walks away.
"Taste like chicken"
Message no. 7
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:21:14 -0500
On Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:00:15 +1000 "Simon and Fiona"
<sfuller@******.com.au> writes:
<SNIP>
> Once again I won't answer, but instead go on about something else. A
> radio
> science guru in Australia, Dr Karl Krisoniski (I'm not even going to
> try for
> proper spelling there), spent quite a long time proving that
> something
> Godzilla size couldn't possibly walk, move or breathe, since it's
> mass would
> be way too great. Then again, dragons.
<SNIP>

Which incarnation of Godzilla is this? There were three incarnations
(insofar as size is concerned) of Gozilla plus Godzillasaurus.
Godzillasaurus was 12 m/39 ft tall. Godzilla (1954-1975) was 50 m/164 ft
tall. Godzilla (1984-1989) was 80 m/262 ft tall. Godzilla (1991-1995) was
100 m/328 ft tall. The increases in size were to keep the growing Tokyo
underfoot :)... How tall was T-Rex supposed to be? I can't remember if it
was 20 ft or what. Some of the other dinosaurs got pretty big were
probably as big the early Godzilla if was a 4 legged bugger. Anyone know
how big the most recent Godzilla was?

(source: The Official Godzilla Compendium)

As for the original posts' reccomendation for using naval scale Body
scores because it 12 missiles to take down Gojira, forget it. use
Hardened armor instead. :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 8
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:23:59 GMT
>From: "Ahrain" <Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com>
>This brings me to another question. Do you think some of the larger
>critters should/could be treated as vehicles for damage purposes? Naval
>scale even? If so which ones, Megalodons, great dragons?

Last week I played a run where the runners went up against a greater dragon
and I applied -4 stages to damage. But that was a bit harsh. Euually; a
light wound on a human would equate to a deadly wound on a rabit.

Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 9
From: Phil pames@*****.net
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:31:53 -0500
At 09:23 PM 6/14/2000 GMT, you wrote:

>
>Last week I played a run where the runners went up against a greater dragon
>and I applied -4 stages to damage. But that was a bit harsh. Euually; a
>light wound on a human would equate to a deadly wound on a rabit.
>
>Phil
>

So...anyone for that Shadowrun/Bunnies and Burrows Conversion?

"That wired reflexes-many will costs you lots and lots of essence."

Shadowbunners, living in the darkness between the Megawarrens...

Phil
Message no. 10
From: Ahrain Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:00:35 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: NeoJudas <neojudas@******************.com>
Subject: Re: BIG! Critters


> The Flight of Dragons concept would entirely work, but it was without a
> doubt one of the most fantastical explanations ever.

But still possible, but then again so are aliens....... : P

> As for how to give them stats, yeah you could probably just start
assigning
> them numbers ... whatever suited your needs really. Personally I'd just
> role-play it out as a decision making process and go from there. Should
it
> step on you, you'll probably die. Should it look at you, your heart will
> probably skip a few steps as you consider the position of the shrimp to
the
> cocktail bowl... that sort of things :)

I agree 100%, but this would be something that is SUPPOSED to be able to be
killed. The general rule of thumb is "If it has stats, it can be killed."
How well do I know this rule from past games in other systems.

But, one reason I try NOT to do this is I already have a main
Villian/Adversary that has no stats. Sort of like Xanatos meets Harlequin
with a little bit of Grand Admiral Thrawn thrown in for good measure. I
don't want to make a habit of it.

Another reason is I have a player that invaribly has the ability to figure
out the stats of things they are fighting. Either through numerics (it just
lifted a car...it must have a Strength of at least 15.....and it is out
distancing the troll so it obviously has a Body of at least 12..etc,etc.) or
by "sneaking a peak". If the later I really want to see him shit his pants
when he does. <EGM GRIN>.

But in general, yes I would probably do it that way too. Sometimes things
can be TOO big for stats.
Thanks, Keith

Ahrain

>
> -Keith
>
>
>
>
Message no. 11
From: Ahrain Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:05:40 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: paul collins <paulcollins@*******.com>
Subject: Re: BIG! Critters


> Actually I think it's more that the ground won't support the weight. But
> hey, Magic cures that problem doesn't it?
> After all, the critter will need magic to exist at all.

Actually, IIRC, the ground will only compress so much. Now true, it
probably couldn't take a stroll through the bayou, but MIGHT be able to run
around Manhattan. Some of those tunnels underneath were designed to take
earthquakes and major bombings, witch I think wouls produce a lot more PSI
and impact force than a 2500 ton lizard.

Ahrain
Message no. 12
From: Ahrain Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:08:14 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Rookie <tmathena@*******.net>
Subject: RE: BIG! Critters


> > B 28 Naval (regular weapons did NOTHING! only heavy
> > sidewinder<?> missiles
> > and then it took 12 of them.
> > C Don't make me laugh
> > I 3/5
> > W 4
> > E 6
> > R 5 *
> > Damage 16SN
> >
>
> One thing that some shadowrunners have that the Navy of the 20th Century
> didn't...............Magic!!!!!! Willpower of 5..It'll be dropped like a
hat
> from a combat shaman or mage....
>
> I can just see it...
> Big nasty running through Seattle buildings being destroyed. The Star
unable
> to do anything to this creature with there weapons. UCAS fighters 5
minutes
> away....A little Wolf Shaman steps out of the Shadows....."Here lizard,
> lizard, lizard ,lizard" Big blue streak of Energy strikes the lizard.
Lizard
> screams in pain and falls to the ground......Little street shaman has a
> small headache...
> Little wolf shaman walks away.
> "Taste like chicken"


True enough. I play mages mostly. That's part of the reason I threw this
out here is for (hopefully) some intelligent.......OK nevermind, just a few
ideas. : P

I was actually thinking (now that I am a little more aware) like a will of 7
and Magic Resistance (possibly due to the fact of it's "mutation")

Ahrain
Message no. 13
From: Ahrain Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:17:56 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
Subject: Re: BIG! Critters


> Which incarnation of Godzilla is this? There were three incarnations
> (insofar as size is concerned) of Gozilla plus Godzillasaurus.
> Godzillasaurus was 12 m/39 ft tall. Godzilla (1954-1975) was 50 m/164 ft
> tall. Godzilla (1984-1989) was 80 m/262 ft tall. Godzilla (1991-1995) was
> 100 m/328 ft tall. The increases in size were to keep the growing Tokyo
> underfoot :)... How tall was T-Rex supposed to be? I can't remember if it
> was 20 ft or what. Some of the other dinosaurs got pretty big were
> probably as big the early Godzilla if was a 4 legged bugger. Anyone know
> how big the most recent Godzilla was?

FRIGGIN' HUGE!!! : )
But, the movie I am referring to is the American version with Matthew
Broderick.

> (source: The Official Godzilla Compendium)
>
> As for the original posts' reccomendation for using naval scale Body
> scores because it 12 missiles to take down Gojira, forget it. use
> Hardened armor instead. :)

Hardened armor would work. To a point. Most missiles now, at least out of
Cyberpirates, do Naval scale damage. Naval scale is basically 5 times the
original power level. So in this case he/she would have to have HA of at
least 85 to 90 points to resist a 20 SN damage missile. I think it would be
a little easier to think of things in terms of scale. Too many years of
living...ah...playing Star Wars I guess. : P

BTW, it took 12 missiles......and barely did it!
It did take 2 direct (?) torpedo hits earlier in the movie. Personally I
think the impacted next to it, but still.

Hey, Ken! Care to throw any light on the subject? I may live on a military
base, but not a Naval one. : )

Ahrain
Message no. 14
From: Ahrain Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:22:12 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Smith <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
Subject: Re: BIG! Critters


> Last week I played a run where the runners went up against a greater
dragon
> and I applied -4 stages to damage. But that was a bit harsh. Euually; a
> light wound on a human would equate to a deadly wound on a rabit.

Actually I think there was an article posted a while back on a similar idea.
A 9mm shot to a weasel would probably splat the weasal (not do Moderate
damage) and would probably just piss off a Beheamoth.


Wich brings me back to question 2. Do you think some critters should/could
be counted as "Vehicular" or "Naval" for damage purposes? And if so,
which
ones? (Other than the obvious Great and Powerfull Almighty .... Dragon) :
P


Ahrain
Message no. 15
From: Ahrain Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:23:35 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil <pames@*****.net>
Subject: Re: BIG! Critters


> At 09:23 PM 6/14/2000 GMT, you wrote:
>
> >
> >Last week I played a run where the runners went up against a greater
dragon
> >and I applied -4 stages to damage. But that was a bit harsh. Euually; a
> >light wound on a human would equate to a deadly wound on a rabit.
> >
> >Phil
> >
>
> So...anyone for that Shadowrun/Bunnies and Burrows Conversion?
>
> "That wired reflexes-many will costs you lots and lots of essence."
>
> Shadowbunners, living in the darkness between the Megawarrens...
>
> Phil

You don't want to go there my friend....We lost an entire group to the Great
Vorpal Bunny.....<shiver>

Ahrain,
A Knight that does NOT go "NEEP!"
Message no. 16
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 06:30:59 -0600
Ahrain wrote:

>Wich brings me back to question 2. Do you think some critters should/could
>be counted as "Vehicular" or "Naval" for damage purposes? And if
so, which
>ones? (Other than the obvious Great and Powerfull Almighty .... Dragon) :
>P

Yes. In general, I apply the vehicle damage rules to any big critter that
has "hardened" armor. Unfortunately the only critter that comes to mind at
the moment is the Behemoth.

I would probably apply the naval damage rules to the Kraken and that really
big shark (the name escapes me), and to select greater dragons (like Loftwyr).

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday ... and all is well."
Message no. 17
From: Peter Kristiansen sds@**.auc.dk
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:45:28 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)
On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 dbuehrer@******.carl.org wrote:

> Ahrain wrote:
>
> >Wich brings me back to question 2. Do you think some critters should/could
> >be counted as "Vehicular" or "Naval" for damage purposes?
And if so, which
> >ones? (Other than the obvious Great and Powerfull Almighty .... Dragon) :
> >P
>
> Yes. In general, I apply the vehicle damage rules to any big critter that
> has "hardened" armor. Unfortunately the only critter that comes to mind at

> the moment is the Behemoth.

Don't forget about the Juggernaut!! Also I use vehicle damage for _any_
critter which has hardened armor. Maybe this is a leftover from between
1st and 2nd edition where that was the way we did it, but as long as you
don't throw AVM/AVR after them, they'll put up quite a fight.

>
> I would probably apply the naval damage rules to the Kraken and that really
> big shark (the name escapes me), and to select greater dragons (like Loftwyr).
>
Megalodon?? TorpedoShark? Meistersinger?? Leviathan??

I don't remember how big the Kraken is but off the top of my head I
wouldn't use naval damage for any of the published critters. They simply
isn't that big. (dangerous statement from someone who has read
cyberpirates once, and that's some time ago..)

Ofcourse I can't remember the size of critters either but maybe naval
damage would be applied to kraken, leviathan and this
magnitude. Maybe. I have to check size comparisons before saying
anything more.

..Peter shuts up now..

-----Peter (sds) Kristiansen-----
SRC v0.22 SR1++ SR2+ SR3++ h+ b++(+) B--- UB+ IE+ RN+ W- dk+ sa++ ma++ sh
ad++ ri++ mc-- rk? m- gm M+ P
Message no. 18
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:23:57 -0500
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 7:31 AM

> In general, I apply the vehicle damage rules to any big critter
> that has "hardened" armor. Unfortunately the only critter that
> comes to mind at the moment is the Behemoth.

Juggernaut. Gotta respect the over-sized armadillo....

> I would probably apply the naval damage rules to the Kraken and
> that really big shark (the name escapes me), and to select greater
> dragons (like Loftwyr).

Megalodon.

And *any* greater dragon is, in my book, gonna do damage on the naval scale.
Most of your basic garden-variety dragons, too, for that matter.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
Message no. 19
From: Ahrain Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:27:56 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.net>
Subject: RE: BIG! Critters


> From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
> Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 7:31 AM
>
> > In general, I apply the vehicle damage rules to any big critter
> > that has "hardened" armor. Unfortunately the only critter that
> > comes to mind at the moment is the Behemoth.
>
> Juggernaut. Gotta respect the over-sized armadillo....
>
> > I would probably apply the naval damage rules to the Kraken and
> > that really big shark (the name escapes me), and to select greater
> > dragons (like Loftwyr).
>
> Megalodon.
>
> And *any* greater dragon is, in my book, gonna do damage on the naval
scale.
> Most of your basic garden-variety dragons, too, for that matter.
>

Well, at least I'm not alone in that respect. Now the question is is how
would the stats be redone/reinterpreted if at all?
I mean a dragon has a Body of 15 (IIRC) and a great has a 25. Now in naval
terms that is tougher than the USS Nimitz! I was thinking 1/2 their normal
body for damage resistance maybe? Any thoughts?

Ahrain
Message no. 20
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:45:41 -0500
From: Ahrain
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 2:28 PM

> > And *any* greater dragon is, in my book, gonna do damage on the
> > naval scale. Most of your basic garden-variety dragons, too, for
> > that matter.
>
> Well, at least I'm not alone in that respect.

Nope. Dragons are feared for a reason, especially in my games.

> Now the question is is how would the stats be
> redone/reinterpreted if at all? I mean a dragon has a Body of
> 15 (IIRC) and a great has a 25. Now in naval terms that is
> tougher than the USS Nimitz!

So far, I fail to see a problem here. Maybe it's just me, but I *like* my
dragons to be unstoppable.

> I was thinking 1/2 > their normal
> body for damage resistance maybe? Any thoughts?

Just one: Why?

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
Message no. 21
From: Ahrain Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:01:22 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.net>
Subject: RE: BIG! Critters


> Nope. Dragons are feared for a reason, especially in my games.

I tend not to use dragons that much, I like them too much. 15 years of
gaming and I have hundreds (litteraly) of pics, dozens of articals and books
on dragons.

> So far, I fail to see a problem here. Maybe it's just me, but I *like* my
> dragons to be unstoppable.

I like that a little too much myself. When I used to run AD&D (1st ed.) I
boosted my dragons stats at least 3 fold. Irritated the hell out of my
players who were used to "Dragon Hunts" at 3rd level. : )

But, I do agree, even though my players don't. Personally I like the idea
of having to call out the Bradley's (note plural) if a dragon shows up.

>
> > I was thinking 1/2 > their normal
> > body for damage resistance maybe? Any thoughts?
>
> Just one: Why?

Actually, just thinking of those out there that don't agree with us. Most
would probably like to buffer it down, at least a little bit. The above
suggestion still puts them in the high naval scale of things but not the
MOST powerful thing in that scale.


BTW, Patrick, you seem to like the weight/height thing. Any ideas on doing
something for the critters? Personally I think that would be a little too
much of an undertaking. My opinion is, is if a dragon lands on you...you're
squished.

But with your friends lifting formula, how many giants would it take to life
a dragon (provided it would let them)?

Ahrain
Message no. 22
From: sds@**.auc.dk sds@**.auc.dk
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:18:12 +0200 (MET DST)
Citat Ahrain <Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com>:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.net>
> Subject: RE: BIG! Critters
>
> > Just one: Why?
>
> Actually, just thinking of those out there that don't
agree with us. Most
> would probably like to buffer it down, at least a
little bit.

[SNIP]

The main reason I disagree with you is that dragons
aren't that big. If you convert dragons to naval scale
you would have to reduce their body to hull. Going by
cyberpirates if you have a tonnage of more than 100tons
hull rating would be 1. 100-200 tons : Hull rating = 1
200-something :2 and so on. The Nimitz would have a
Hull rating of 8'ish. NO Creature (including Godzilla,
but excluding Altuin (sp??)) should have a body/hull of
that magnitude.

If you look at it, a great western dragon is stated to
measuer 58m from head to tail. Lets not look into the
weight stated in the book but just say they weigh in at
around 250tons. This makes them twice as heavy as the
Bluewhale (is that the proper name for the largest
mammal in existence??) and should supply them a Hull
rating of 2. Maybe they can get a Bullwark of 4 or 5.
The result: Nearly the same as is now: Dragons are
impervious to small arms fire up to and including an
assault cannon. Only difference is that even AVM/AVR
doesn't hurt a Naval dragon.

Thats more or less that.

BTW. Have you ever looked at the weight supplied for
the critters?? The Meistersinger, 26m long, weighs
55tons. I'm certainly no expert, but I would think it's
a bit on the low side..

sds.
..Signature lacking due to graphical location O;-)..
Message no. 23
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:49:20 +0200
According to sds@**.auc.dk, at 8:18 on 16 Jun 00, the word on the street
was...

> BTW. Have you ever looked at the weight supplied for
> the critters?? The Meistersinger, 26m long, weighs
> 55tons. I'm certainly no expert, but I would think it's
> a bit on the low side..

Body weights in SR are almost always off, usually being too low for large
critters (trolls, for example).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 24
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:19:54 -0500
From: Ahrain
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 10:01 PM

> > Nope. Dragons are feared for a reason, especially in my
> > games.
>
> I tend not to use dragons that much, I like them too much.

I love dragons, and I use them, but that doesn't mean that they show up that
often. Just say the words "Great Dragon" to any of my players, though, and
watch their reaction. (I'm reminded of a Jeff Foxworthy routine: "SHIT! I
haven't had coffee yet! Don't ever do that again!")

> > So far, I fail to see a problem here. Maybe it's just me, but
> > I *like* my dragons to be unstoppable.
>
> I like that a little too much myself. When I used to run AD&D (1st
> ed.) I boosted my dragons stats at least 3 fold. Irritated the hell
> out of my players who were used to "Dragon Hunts" at 3rd level. : )

"Be vewwy quiet! I'm hunting dwagons!"

They've clearly never heard the expression "Do not meddle in the affairs of
dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

> But, I do agree, even though my players don't. Personally I like
> the idea of having to call out the Bradley's (note plural) if a
> dragon shows up.

Oh, yeah, like that'll work....

> BTW, Patrick, you seem to like the weight/height thing. Any
> ideas on doing something for the critters?

I've actually considered it a time or two, but haven't found the proper
amount of unstructured free time to do anything with it.

Once upon a time -- call it 12 or 13 years ago, I think it was -- I wrote an
article on lengths and weights for dragons in AD&D and sent it in to DRAGON
Magazine. Got rejected (and probably rightly so) because they had a similar
article already in the pipeline. I don't think I have an electronic copy of
it anymore, but I might still have the hard copy. If I do, I'll OCR the
thing in and see what I can do about making it available on the web.

> My opinion is, is if a dragon lands on you...you're
> squished.

Oh, yeah, easily, especially when you consider that a dragon is going to
weigh many, many tons. Yeah, definitely going to have to look through my
stuff and try to find that article.

> But with your friends lifting formula, how many giants would it
> take to life a dragon (provided it would let them)?

Assuming a western dragon was in the same weight class as, say,
brachiosaurus (I've seen weight estimates of up to 45 tons for a big one of
those), we're looking at...hmmm, let's just call it 35 tons, or 31,750 kg
(actually, it's slightly more, but let's keep it at round numbers for
purposes of this demonstration.

A troll with a Strength and Body both of 10 can lift/throw 400 kg; deadlift,
it's 800 kg. Dividing the 800 into the 31,750 gives us just a shade under
40 trolls. Assuming, of course, they all live long enough to approach the
dragon.

These weight figures are coming out of thin air; I'll have to do some
research when I find my old article.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
Message no. 25
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:49:26 -0500
From: sds@**.auc.dk
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 1:18 AM

> The main reason I disagree with you is that dragons
> aren't that big.

Then you're not doing something right, IMHO. Maybe it's just me. It
wouldn't be the first time I'd been accused of exaggerating things a bit.

> NO Creature (including Godzilla,
> but excluding Altuin (sp??)) should have a body/hull of
> that magnitude.

So the fact that these creatures are magical in the extreme, playing with
one of the fundamental forces of the universe, doesn't factor into this at
all?

Sorry; I don't see it that way. You're just factoring in simple biological
factors (which in other critters I might agree with); you're not counting
the fact that they are fundamentally magical beings. Dragons, at least in
my world, are naval-class forces of nature. They aren't just another
critter, as you seem to be implying here. As I've said before, your mileage
may vary.

> If you look at it, a great western dragon is stated to
> measuer 58m from head to tail.

Have you ever paced off 58-60 meters, to see what you're dealing with? Try
it sometime; it's impressive. Then try to put a spot at about 3.5 or 4
above the ground, to see where the dragon's "shoulder" should be. These
things are of pretty impressive size.

> Lets not look into the weight stated in the book but just
> say they weigh in at around 250tons.

I'd say that's probably overstating it a bit, unless they're a particularly
large specimen, but what the hell. Two hundred fifty tons it is.

> The result: Nearly the same as is now: Dragons are
> impervious to small arms fire up to and including an
> assault cannon. Only difference is that even AVM/AVR
> doesn't hurt a Naval dragon.

And the problem with this is...what, exactly?

> Thats more or less that.

If you say so. I don't agree with you, but if you say so....

> BTW. Have you ever looked at the weight supplied for
> the critters??

More than you might imagine. I wrote a pretty hefty article about player
race weights once upon a time. Now I'm looking at the critters.

> The Meistersinger, 26m long, weighs
> 55tons. I'm certainly no expert, but I would think it's
> a bit on the low side..

Probably; weights and SR have never, apparently, gotten on too well.

The meistersinger Awakened from the humpback whale; according to
www.britannica.com, they run between 45-60 feet (13.7-18.3 meters) and weigh
in the 31.7-36.3 metric ton range. A meistersinger, at 26 meters long, is
about 1.4 times the length of a big southern humpback. Assuming he stayed
more or less proportional to the humpback, he should weigh about 2.87 times
the humpbacks weight. That would make (2.87 x 36.3) about 104 metric tons
for the meistersinger.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
Message no. 26
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:00:55 +0200
According to Patrick Goodman, at 23:19 on 16 Jun 00, the word on the
street was...

> Assuming a western dragon was in the same weight class as, say,
> brachiosaurus (I've seen weight estimates of up to 45 tons for a big one of
> those), we're looking at...hmmm, let's just call it 35 tons, or 31,750 kg
> (actually, it's slightly more, but let's keep it at round numbers for
> purposes of this demonstration.

How about using 1 ton = 1,000 kg in that case? It'll make your whole
calculations a lot easier, IMHO...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 27
From: Ahrain Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 19:16:05 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.net>
Subject: RE: BIG! Critters


> I love dragons, and I use them, but that doesn't mean that they show up
that
> often. Just say the words "Great Dragon" to any of my players, though,
and
> watch their reaction. (I'm reminded of a Jeff Foxworthy routine: "SHIT!
I
> haven't had coffee yet! Don't ever do that again!")

I never stated I have that much willpower (probably a 2 or possibly 3 : P).

Jeff Foxworthy: *Immages of Redneck Dragon jokes.....shudder*

> "Be vewwy quiet! I'm hunting dwagons!"
>
> They've clearly never heard the expression "Do not meddle in the affairs
of
> dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

They did after that. (EGM grin). Then 2nd Ed. came out and stole my ideas.
*pout*

> I've actually considered it a time or two, but haven't found the proper
> amount of unstructured free time to do anything with it.

Tell me about it. 22 hours of overtime in the past 2 weeks for me.

> Once upon a time -- call it 12 or 13 years ago, I think it was -- I wrote
an
> article on lengths and weights for dragons in AD&D and sent it in to
DRAGON
> Magazine. Got rejected (and probably rightly so) because they had a
similar
> article already in the pipeline. I don't think I have an electronic copy
of
> it anymore, but I might still have the hard copy. If I do, I'll OCR the
> thing in and see what I can do about making it available on the web.

That woulr be mucho appreciated.

> Oh, yeah, easily, especially when you consider that a dragon is going to
> weigh many, many tons. Yeah, definitely going to have to look through my
> stuff and try to find that article.

See above. : )

> A troll with a Strength and Body both of 10 can lift/throw 400 kg;
deadlift,
> it's 800 kg. Dividing the 800 into the 31,750 gives us just a shade under
> 40 trolls. Assuming, of course, they all live long enough to approach the
> dragon.

For some reason I have an image of Big "D" being carried in by 50 trolls, on
a liter, to an episode of Wyrm Talk.

: P

Ahrain
Message no. 28
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 09:41:23 -0500
From: Gurth
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 5:01 AM

> > Assuming a western dragon was in the same weight class as, say,
> > brachiosaurus (I've seen weight estimates of up to 45 tons for
> > a big one of those), we're looking at...hmmm, let's just call
> > it 35 tons, or 31,750 kg (actually, it's slightly more, but let's
> > keep it at round numbers for purposes of this demonstration.
>
> How about using 1 ton = 1,000 kg in that case? It'll make your whole
> calculations a lot easier, IMHO...

It would have made the demonstration easier, true, but it wouldn't have been
accurate. Most of the weights I'm familiar with for big critters is listed
in short tons (2,000 pounds) versus metric tons (1,000 kg). Wanting to
stick to the metric system as much as possible, some conversion is probably
going to be necessary; fortunately, I have an old VB3 metric converter
program that makes my life much easier in that regard.

But you're right, for this example I should have just said 35,000 kg and
been done with it (which, incidentally, would take 44 trolls with Strength
and Body both at 10, expending a lot of effort in a simple deadlift, to pick
up; carrying would be a different story).

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe




>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
> -> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
> ->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
>
> GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
> PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
>
>
>
Message no. 29
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 09:42:37 -0500
From: Ahrain
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 6:16 PM

> > Once upon a time -- call it 12 or 13 years ago, I think it
> > was -- I wrote an article on lengths and weights for dragons
> > in AD&D and sent it in to DRAGON Magazine. Got rejected (and
> > probably rightly so) because they had a similar article
> > already in the pipeline. I don't think I have an electronic
> > copy of it anymore, but I might still have the hard copy. If
> > I do, I'll OCR the thing in and see what I can do about
> > making it available on the web.
>
> That woulr be mucho appreciated.

So far, no luck. Found a similar article on age stages for dragons in 1st
Edition AD&D (where an elf would outlive a dragon, at least the way things
were written at the time), which is a very cheesy article written when I was
much younger. But so far, can't find hard copy of the weights article.
There are a lot of boxes in my storage unit, though, and it might still be
in one of those.

> > A troll with a Strength and Body both of 10 can lift/throw
> > 400 kg; deadlift, it's 800 kg. Dividing the 800 into the
> > 31,750 gives us just a shade under 40 trolls. Assuming, of
> > course, they all live long enough to approach the dragon.
>
> For some reason I have an image of Big "D" being carried in by 50
> trolls, on a liter, to an episode of Wyrm Talk.

I think it would take considerably more than that to lift and carry a dragon
any appreciable distance.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
Message no. 30
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 19:48:34 +0200
According to Patrick Goodman, at 9:41 on 18 Jun 00, the word on the street
was...

> > How about using 1 ton = 1,000 kg in that case? It'll make your whole
> > calculations a lot easier, IMHO...
>
> It would have made the demonstration easier, true, but it wouldn't have been
> accurate. Most of the weights I'm familiar with for big critters is listed
> in short tons (2,000 pounds) versus metric tons (1,000 kg). Wanting to
> stick to the metric system as much as possible, some conversion is probably
> going to be necessary

My advice would be to quote the weights of these big critters in metric
tons, but maybe I'm biased in this respect because I'm not from North
America :)

> But you're right, for this example I should have just said 35,000 kg and
> been done with it (which, incidentally, would take 44 trolls with Strength
> and Body both at 10, expending a lot of effort in a simple deadlift, to pick
> up; carrying would be a different story).

This sounds like something out of a TV game show -- how many trolls does
it take to pick up a dragon, and how many can you then remove before the
others are squashed? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 31
From: sds@**.auc.dk sds@**.auc.dk
Subject: BIG! Critters
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:20:14 +0200 (MET DST)
Citat Patrick Goodman <remo@***.net>:

> From: sds@**.auc.dk
> Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 1:18 AM
>
> > The main reason I disagree with you is that dragons
> > aren't that big.
>
> Then you're not doing something right, IMHO. Maybe
it's just me. It
> wouldn't be the first time I'd been accused of
exaggerating things a bit.

Oh, in no way do I disagree that dragons are BIG! But
going from the table in cyberpirates "you" have to be
above 50m and weigh in excess of 100 (metric)tons. If
this is qualified you have Hull rating 1. Above 200
tons Hull rating is 2.

Mind you, I have nothing against you making dragons
naval (why should I, it's your game and from my point
of view it doesn't matter).

>
> > NO Creature (including Godzilla,
> > but excluding Altuin (sp??)) should have a
body/hull of
> > that magnitude.
>
> So the fact that these creatures are magical in the
extreme, playing with
> one of the fundamental forces of the universe,
doesn't factor into this at
> all?
Sure but does this magical nature not manifest itself
in their obscene magic ratings?? Their ability to
create barriers which might resist naval missiles and
so on.

The Wild Hunt is also an extreme magical force but they
are not naval scale right? I know, these things cannot
be compared..
>
> "They aren't just another critter"

Oh. But why not? mind you they are extremely powerful
and durable critters. Critters who has the potential to
live countless milennia, and the magical prowess they
can accumulate in this time would most likely be able
to stand (or avoid) a naval bombardment. In their case
I wouldn´t treat them much different than Harlequin or
Ehran. If either of these two or a dragon were shelled
they would escape damage through barriers, teleport,
Dimension Door, just-being-nasty but should one hit
their body they would feel pain (at the very least O;-)

> As I've said before, your mileage may vary.
Ofcourse, if it didn't we wouldn't have any discussions
in this forum O;-)

[Snip size]
> Have you ever paced off 58-60 meters, to see what
> large specimen, but what the hell. Two hundred fifty
tons it is.

They are BIG. But not much bigger than to award a hull
rating of 1 or 2. And if that is the case, I just don't
see the point.

> > assault cannon. Only difference is that even AVM/AVR
> > doesn't hurt a Naval dragon.
>
> And the problem with this is...what, exactly?

Nothing. If that's the decired result I just don't see
the reason to bother??

What I'm "fearing" is that the attributes of the dragon
remains the same i.e. body ~20 equals hull rating ~20.
I don't know if thats the case.

But I don't like the image of a dragon taking several
anti-ship missiles and shrugging them off when the same
amount would sink the Nimitz. And then some.

Peter (sds) Kristiansen
Signature unavailable due to geographical location.

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