Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Terry Amburgey <XANTH@****.UKY.EDU>
Subject:	Big Time armor
Date:	Fri, 1 Apr 1994 12:53:00 EST

Message no. 1 The recent discussion of Wraiths makes me wonder if I've been misinterpreting
the SR combat rules. I would think that, beyond a certain point, body dice are
much more important than armor ratin. The defender resistance test states: "The
target number for this test is the power rating of the attacking weapon,
modified by any armor the character wearing. To determine that adjusted ta
target number, simply subtract the rating of the armor from the weapon's power.
Any result less than 2 is considered a 2. Roll the dice using the Rule of One/
Rule of Six".
Let's say my character is attacking a wraith with an Ares Predator with 9M
damage. If the wraith has armor 7 it rolls against a 2; if it has armor 72 it
rolls against a 2. I would think the key would be how many dice it gets to
roll against a 2. Am I missing something here? Terry

From:	Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Fri, 1 Apr 1994 18:22:20 -0500

Message no. 2 >Let's say my character is attacking a wraith with an Ares Predator with 9M
>damage. If the wraith has armor 7 it rolls against a 2; if it has armor 72 it
>rolls against a 2. I would think the key would be how many dice it gets to
>roll against a 2. Am I missing something here? Terry

True, but, if you attack a wraith with an SMG, assault rifle on full auto,
HMG, minigun, assault cannon, missile launcher, rotary autocannon, heavy
minigun, or anything short of a TacNuke, it's STILL gonna shrug it off with 72
points of armor.
That's only part of what makes 'em so scary.

Matt

From:	Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Fri, 1 Apr 1994 21:28:03 -0600

Message no. 3 Trying to kill a wraith? Weapon foci. That would be my first shot, and I'd
have a rather -good- weapon foci. =)

From:	Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Sat, 2 Apr 1994 09:55:37 -0500

Message no. 4 >Trying to kill a wraith? Weapon foci. That would be my first shot, and I'd
>have a rather -good- weapon foci. =)

Magic. Many, many mages and shamans.

Matt

From:	Dave Sherohman <esper@*****.IMA.UMN.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Sat, 2 Apr 1994 14:46:11 CST

Message no. 5 > >Trying to kill a wraith? Weapon foci. That would be my first shot, an
>d I'd
> >have a rather -good- weapon foci. =)

The Wraith, however, has Fear, Influence, and Confusion powers. Can you win
an opposed test between your Willpower (probably 4-7) and the Wriath's
Essence (12-36)? I kinda doubt it...

> Magic. Many, many mages and shamans.

Body 10, Willpower 10, and Magic Resistance (it gets it's Essence in extra
dice to resist spells; this may also increase the mage's TN like Shielding,
but that's unclear). Can you get any successes against 22-46 (or 10; I think
Shielding is the more likely effect)? Can it get _more_ successes against
the spell's force when using 22-46 dice? *nod* Banish it? PAE claims that
wraiths can't be banished, but that might just be because nobody's been able
to win a banishing test against its (ungodly high) Essence...

esper@***.umn.edu

From:	Dave Sherohman <esper@*****.IMA.UMN.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Sat, 2 Apr 1994 15:00:01 CST

Message no. 6 From: Terry Amburgey <XANTH%UKCC.UKY.EDU@***.spcs.umn.edu>
>The recent discussion of Wraiths makes me wonder if I've been misinterpreting
>the SR combat rules.

No, your understanding of the rules seems to match what they say.

> I would think that, beyond a certain point, body dice are
>much more important than armor ratin.

Under the official rules, yep. I noticed this a while ago in that armor does
nothing for people (or vehicles) with low Body - if you've got a Body of 1
and a good marksman (ie, someone who can get 6 successes) shoots you with a
Streetline Special, you're hosed - even if you're wearing Full Heavy Armor!
My solution was to implement a house rule that if armor reduces the Power of
an attack below 0, each point below 0 gives 1 extra 'Body' die. So if you're
in Full Heavy, you'd get 4 extra dice for Body resistance against a Streetline.
Another option (stolen wholesale from the vehicle combat rules) would be to
_always_ get (armor/2) extra dice, so the Full Heavy would effectively add
4 to your Body for ballistic attacks and add 3 against impact attacks, while
a Lined Coat would add 2 vs. ballistic and 1 vs. impact.

>Let's say my character is attacking a wraith with an Ares Predator with 9M
>damage. If the wraith has armor 7 it rolls against a 2; if it has armor 72 it
>rolls against a 2. I would think the key would be how many dice it gets to
>roll against a 2. Am I missing something here? Terry

So by the house rule I use, the pumped-up wraith would get 63 extra 'Body'
dice (gak! - 9-72 = -63, so 63 dice), while the subwraith (armor 7) would just
get its normal Body dice. The other version would give the lesser wraith 3
bonus dice and the big one would get 36.

esper@***.umn.edu

Message no. 7 Hmmmm...wraiths...use a low-yield tactical nuclear warhead, or trap it somehow.

From:	Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Sat, 2 Apr 1994 18:18:10 -0600

From:	Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Sat, 2 Apr 1994 21:23:15 -0500

Message no. 8 >Body 10, Willpower 10, and Magic Resistance (it gets it's Essence in extra
>dice to resist spells; this may also increase the mage's TN like Shielding,
>but that's unclear). Can you get any successes against 22-46 (or 10; I think
>Shielding is the more likely effect)? Can it get _more_ successes against
>the spell's force when using 22-46 dice? *nod* Banish it? PAE claims that
>wraiths can't be banished, but that might just be because nobody's been able
>to win a banishing test against its (ungodly high) Essence...

Funny, I completely fail to recall saying that it would be easy or a sure
thing. Merely that magic was the way to do it.

Is the SRI rule about permanantly burning off rating points of Power Foci and
elementals for automatic successess still in effect? If so, I think we have
our answer. Force 10 fireball and permanantly burn off any elementals you
happen to have with you, and maybe a power focus or two.

Then pray the drain doesn't kill you...

Matt

From:	Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Sat, 2 Apr 1994 21:26:05 -0500

Message no. 9 >Under the official rules, yep. I noticed this a while ago in that armor does
>nothing for people (or vehicles) with low Body - if you've got a Body of 1
>and a good marksman (ie, someone who can get 6 successes) shoots you with a
>Streetline Special, you're hosed - even if you're wearing Full Heavy Armor!

Let's not forget the Combat Pool. That is, after all, what it's there for.

Matt

From:	Necromancer <shilberg@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Sat, 2 Apr 1994 22:17:26 -0600

Message no. 10 I think the wraith has the Immunity to Nuclear Weapons power, GP. And exactly
how do you intend to trap a fraggin' demon?

-------------
Steve Hilberg <shilberg@********.uni.uiuc.edu>
aka Jarred Wellsley <Necromancer>
aka Phaeros Lostchilde <Archlich of the Dark Order, High Necromancer
of Zalanthas>
Play Armageddon <studsys.mscs.mu.edu 4444>!

Message no. 11 Custom magic spell? "Trap a fraggin demon," force 15. =)

From:	Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Sat, 2 Apr 1994 22:55:22 -0600

From:	Joe Bay <bay@*******.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Mon, 4 Apr 1994 00:30:16 EDT

Message no. 12 Maybe Ritual Sorcery would work on a wraith. You know, get Harlequin, Daniel
Howling Coyote, The Grand Heirophant Druid, The Princess of Snowdownia, and a
few other munchin-like characters together and ... and ... oh god what am I
saying?

From:	"Brian W. Allison" <bwa550s@***.SMSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Sun, 3 Apr 1994 23:35:59 -0500

Message no. 13 Well, why not create a focus specifically for binding wraiths? It could
require activation by an initiate of at least Grade 4, and the only
way someone could release them would be to have a magic rating of...

15+ without externals? (foci, etc). That would require some powerful entity
to intervene.

Good lord, a sequel to "Bottled Demon (tm, etc, etc)", I can see it now.

From:	Joe Bay <bay@*******.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Mon, 4 Apr 1994 00:40:00 EDT

Message no. 14 How about a specially made focus just for a particular wraith? Sounds like
an adventure in itself. Check the Grimoire.

Joe
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From:	Dave Sherohman <esper@*****.IMA.UMN.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Mon, 4 Apr 1994 13:01:37 CDT

Message no. 15 From: Matt <mosbun%EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU@***.spcs.umn.edu>
> >Under the official rules, yep. I noticed this a while ago in that armo
>r does
> >nothing for people (or vehicles) with low Body - if you've got a Body o
>f 1
> >and a good marksman (ie, someone who can get 6 successes) shoots you wi
>th a
> >Streetline Special, you're hosed - even if you're wearing Full Heavy Ar
>mor!

> Let's not forget the Combat Pool. That is, after all, what it's there for.

*mutter* I should've known someone would mention that... I intentionally
ignored Combat Pool because it won't always be there to add to your resistance,
whether because you're surprised or taking careful aim or whatever. Not to
mention that (officially) NPCs don't have one. My point still stands that a
Body 1 character who gets shot in the back (ie, no use of pools to aid Body
resistance) receives _no_ additional protection from Full Heavy Armor as
opposed to, say, a Lined Coat when shot with a light pistol (actually, this
applies to all characters, it's just that the Body 1 loser would be just as
well-off facing the bullet in his birthday suit as Full Heavy).

esper@***.umn.edu

From:	Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Mon, 4 Apr 1994 17:09:20 -0500

Message no. 16 >Body 1 character who gets shot in the back (ie, no use of pools to aid Body
>resistance) receives _no_ additional protection from Full Heavy Armor as
>opposed to, say, a Lined Coat when shot with a light pistol (actually, this
>applies to all characters, it's just that the Body 1 loser would be just as
>well-off facing the bullet in his birthday suit as Full Heavy).

I still don't see it as being as much of an oversight. A bullet striking a
bullet-proof vest still does a lot of damage from the impact. In fact, a
friend of mine with the Indiana State Police has told stories of officers being
shot, taking the bullet on the vest, and still dying. The armor lessens the
damage, but if you're frail, ie a body of 1, the damage is still potentially
lethal. You're body just isn't capable of resisting the impact. Remember,
a body of 1 is extremely frail and weak.
The only place I see a problem is with small arms against heavy armor- where
common sense suggests that the armor should stop enough of the bullet's impact
to lessen the damage, despite the body. But then again, who fires light
weapons at heavy armor?

Remember, all armor really does is keep the bullet from penetrating, and
absorb some of the impact. A tough man is more likely to walk away from a
gunshot wound than a weak one. But there's still damage to deal with, and the
physically weak are still often SOL.

Oh yeah. Don't forget Karma... :)

Matt

From:	"Brian W. Allison" <bwa550s@***.SMSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Mon, 4 Apr 1994 17:22:20 -0500

Message no. 17 What kind of armor ignores light ammo???

Of course that doesn't help you any, if your point was to question the
different way SRII uses armor as opposed to SRI's method. I prefer SRII's
method simply because it IS more lethal.

Brian

From:	"Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Mon, 4 Apr 1994 19:30:00 -0500

Message no. 18 On Mon, 4 Apr 1994, Brian W. Allison wrote:

> What kind of armor ignores light ammo???

The kind that has huge, gaping holes in it from heavy ammo.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Political Correctness is
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> P.C. for "Thought Police"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)

From:	Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Mon, 4 Apr 1994 21:01:01 -0400

Message no. 19 >>>>> "Matt" == Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU> writes:

Matt> Remember, all armor really does is keep the bullet from
Matt> penetrating, and absorb some of the impact. A tough man is more
Matt> likely to walk away from a gunshot wound than a weak one. But
Matt> there's still damage to deal with, and the physically weak are still
Matt> often SOL.

This is one of the few things that I think FASA got right the first time,
in differentiating armor from barriers. If a bullet doesn't penetrate a
barrier, lucky you because none of the energy ever reaches you. But if
you're wearing body armor you're going to feel some of the kinetic energy,
and maybe get a nice, nasty bruise even if the slug doesn't actually
penetrate the armor.

|||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ||||
| Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
| I don't care; I want the Green Ranger's flute! |
|||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ||||

From:	"Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Mon, 4 Apr 1994 22:26:53 -0700

Message no. 20 The Rat Said:

>>This is one of the few things that I think FASA got right the first time,
??in differentiating armor from barriers. If a bullet doesn't penetrate a
>>barrier, lucky you because none of the energy ever reaches you. But if
>>you're wearing body armor you're going to feel some of the kinetic energy,
>>and maybe get a nice, nasty bruise even if the slug doesn't actually
>>penetrate the armor.

Don't you mean the Second Time :)

*******************************************************************************
* See Ya in Shadows * * "Keep your friends close, but keep *
* Jason J Carter * Carter@***.EDU * your enemies closer." *
* The Nightstalker * * Deep Throat -- The X-Files *
*******************************************************************************

From:	Koert Vynckier <kvynckir@***.VUB.AC.BE>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:08:34 DST

Message no. 21 >
>
> >Body 1 character who gets shot in the back (ie, no use of pools to aid
> Body
> >resistance) receives _no_ additional protection from Full Heavy Armor a
> s
> >opposed to, say, a Lined Coat when shot with a light pistol (actually,
> this
> >applies to all characters, it's just that the Body 1 loser would be jus
> t as
> >well-off facing the bullet in his birthday suit as Full Heavy).
>
>
> I still don't see it as being as much of an oversight. A bullet striking a
> bullet-proof vest still does a lot of damage from the impact. In fact, a
> friend of mine with the Indiana State Police has told stories of officers being
> shot, taking the bullet on the vest, and still dying. The armor lessens the
> damage, but if you're frail, ie a body of 1, the damage is still potentially
> lethal. You're body just isn't capable of resisting the impact. Remember,
> a body of 1 is extremely frail and weak.
> The only place I see a problem is with small arms against heavy armor- where
> common sense suggests that the armor should stop enough of the bullet's impact
> to lessen the damage, despite the body. But then again, who fires light
> weapons at heavy armor?
>
> Remember, all armor really does is keep the bullet from penetrating, and
> absorb some of the impact. A tough man is more likely to walk away from a
> gunshot wound than a weak one. But there's still damage to deal with, and the
> physically weak are still often SOL.
>
> Oh yeah. Don't forget Karma... :)
>
> Matt
>
A friend of mine (whose father is a civilian working for the Royal Military School in the
field of weapons, explosives and such) says the Shadowrun system underrates armor by a
lot. His father told him (and he can know) that a pistolshot
hitting a bullet-proof vest will do no damage at all (providing the bullet hits the vest,
and the bullets are not armor-piercing).
The impact will NOT throw you to the floor, you will notice something hit you,
and that's about it. He wasn't talking about shotguns here, and the target was just
standing (not running) and knew it was coming.
And that was for ANY pistol, Desert Eagle (what would be a heavy pistol IMHO) or anything
else (again, no cop-killers).
So, if you want to make SR2 realistic on guns, there would have to be a lot of
changes.
As for what I use in the game (as GM), if the armor-rating exceeds the power of the
attack, Say Light pistol (6L) against heavy body armor (8 balistic), the target get twice
the difference of extra dice to resist (So in the example, that's (8-6)*2=4 extra dice.
The purpose of this house-rule was to make the Ares Viper Slivergun (Flechette ammo)
really ineffective against heavy armor.
6
Example Heavy Sec Armor + Sec helmet = 9/8
Burst from Slivergun = 12D (12S if the target has Dermal Plating)
16-12=4 (Flechette is resisted with ballistic or twice impact witchever is higher) giving
the target 8 extra dice to resist (against a targetnumber of 2).

Night Owl

From:	"Brian W. Allison" <bwa550s@***.SMSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Tue, 5 Apr 1994 08:49:27 -0500

Message no. 22 [The body of almost 2 entire posts deleted....]
> As for what I use in the game (as GM), if the armor-rating exceeds the power
of
> the attack, Say Light pistol (6L) against heavy body armor (8 balistic), the
tar
> get get twice the difference of extra dice to resist (So in the example,
that's
> (8-6)*2=4 extra dice. The purpose of this house-rule was to make the Ares
Viper
> Slivergun (Flechette ammo) really ineffective against heavy armor.
> 6
> Example Heavy Sec Armor + Sec helmet = 9/8
> Burst from Slivergun = 12D (12S if the target>
>
> Night Owl
>

I *LIKE* that idea. Unfortunately, One of the mages I run has Personal
Physical Barrier(6) quickened on himself. Since that adds to his armor
and he usually wears an Armored Jacket w/Lined coat (5/3) + one-half of
(4/2) ==> (7/4) /* The way we run it.. */ .... *takes a breath* ...
That means he'd have equivalent (13/10) armor.

"Resist a 9S LightWave."
"Muahahahahahah!!!!!! NO PROBLEM."

*sigh* I guess I could allow it unless I was gaming.

------------------------------------------
Brian (bwa550s@***.smsu.edu)
Michael Crawford = sing.god
(GEEK CODE) GCS d@ -p+ c++++!!!!! l u+(++) e+(++) m@(+/++/---) s@/@
!n--- h*(+) f+(?) !g(20/12) w+ t+ r+(++) y?

From:	Koert Vynckier <kvynckir@***.VUB.AC.BE>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Tue, 5 Apr 1994 16:31:37 DST

Message no. 23 >
> [The body of almost 2 entire posts deleted....]
> > As for what I use in the game (as GM), if the armor-rating exceeds the power
> of
> > the attack, Say Light pistol (6L) against heavy body armor (8 balistic), the
> tar
> > get get twice the difference of extra dice to resist (So in the example,
> that's
> > (8-6)*2=4 extra dice. The purpose of this house-rule was to make the Ares
> Viper
> > Slivergun (Flechette ammo) really ineffective against heavy armor.
> > 6
> > Example Heavy Sec Armor + Sec helmet = 9/8
> > Burst from Slivergun = 12D (12S if the target>
> >
> > Night Owl
> >
>
> I *LIKE* that idea. Unfortunately, One of the mages I run has Personal
> Physical Barrier(6) quickened on himself. Since that adds to his armor
> and he usually wears an Armored Jacket w/Lined coat (5/3) + one-half of
> (4/2) ==> (7/4) /* The way we run it.. */ .... *takes a breath* ...
> That means he'd have equivalent (13/10) armor.
>
> "Resist a 9S LightWave."
> "Muahahahahahah!!!!!! NO PROBLEM."
>
> *sigh* I guess I could allow it unless I was gaming.
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Brian (bwa550s@***.smsu.edu)
> Michael Crawford = sing.god
> (GEEK CODE) GCS d@ -p+ c++++!!!!! l u+(++) e+(++) m@(+/++/---) s@/@
> !n--- h*(+) f+(?) !g(20/12) w+ t+ r+(++) y?
>
I didn't know you could make a barrier move along with you!
I'll have to look it up, or ask The Nightstalker.(Hi Nightstalker!)
As for your barrier of 13 resisting an attack with power 9, no problem the attack doesn't
come through but the rating of the barrier is reduced by one.
Furthermore, in SR2 it is specifically stated that for layering armor only the best rating
counts, so not to use the rule in the Neo Anarchist's Guide to Real Life, that you are
still using.
And finally, how on earth does your mage eat, drink, go to the bathroom etc. with a
PHYSICAL BARRIER around him ?

Night Owl

From:	Dave Sherohman <esper@*****.IMA.UMN.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Tue, 5 Apr 1994 10:24:50 -0500

Message no. 24 From: Matt <mosbun%EXPERT.CC.PURDUE.EDU@***.spcs.umn.edu>
> I still don't see it as being as much of an oversight. A bullet striking a
>bullet-proof vest still does a lot of damage from the impact.

Yes, but a bulletproof vest is soft armor. Heavy/Security armors are hard
armor, minimising (if not completely eliminating) blunt trauma.

> The armor lessens the
>damage, but if you're frail, ie a body of 1, the damage is still potentially
>lethal. You're body just isn't capable of resisting the impact. Remember,
>a body of 1 is extremely frail and weak.

But not so frail and weak that they should have the same chance of dying from
an attack whether they're nude or wearing hard armor.

> The only place I see a problem is with small arms against heavy armor- where
>common sense suggests that the armor should stop enough of the bullet's impact
>to lessen the damage, despite the body.

Like, for instance, the Streetline Special vs. Full Heavy which you seem to
be saying _should_ kill the Body 1 character inside the Full Heavy...

> But then again, who fires light
>weapons at heavy armor?

People who left the elephant guns at home. Low-end gangers who can't afford
anything better. "Respectable" citizens who want to carry the smallest
weapon they can find. In short, anyone lacking either the resources or the
desire to carry heavy weapons on a regular basis (which should be just about
everyone - Lone Star frowns on people carrying heavy weapons, you know...).

> Remember, all armor really does is keep the bullet from penetrating, and
>absorb some of the impact. A tough man is more likely to walk away from a
>gunshot wound than a weak one. But there's still damage to deal with, and the
>physically weak are still often SOL.

You still seem to be thinking primarily in terms of soft armors - armored
clothing (3/0) is the only 'pure' soft armor in SR; everything else has plates
in it, while the Heavy and Security armors _are_ plates with a little
ballistic cloth to hold them together. By my normal way of dealing with
armor>Power, 'pure' soft armor would only give an extra Body die against guns
with a Power of 2 or less. With the extrapolation from the vehicle rules, it
would give 1 extra Body - and a Body 1 character will _still_ probably die
from the blunt trauma, _but_ it will be (at least a little) less likely than
with no armor at all. And, quite simply, I can't believe that there is
_anyone_ so weak or so frail that they're just as likely to die from blunt
trauma as they are from taking the bullet directly.

esper@***.umn.edu

From:	Dave Sherohman <esper@*****.IMA.UMN.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Tue, 5 Apr 1994 10:57:54 -0500

Message no. 25 From: Koert Vynckier <kvynckir%IS1.VUB.AC.BE@***.spcs.umn.edu>
>I didn't know you could make a barrier move along with you!

Nothing is said directly, but it seems a fairly safe assumption that Personal
Foo Barriers move with the person they're cast upon.

>As for your barrier of 13 resisting an attack with power 9, no problem the attac
>k doesn't come through but the rating of the barrier is reduced by one.

I question whether that should apply to spells. If you want to apply Barrier
Degradation to spells, though, the 13 is the total Barrier+Armor protection;
the Barrier is only BR 6, so the Power 9 would reduce BR by 2 and open a 0.5
meter hole in the Barrier...

esper@***.umn.edu

From:	Dave Sherohman <esper@*****.IMA.UMN.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Tue, 5 Apr 1994 10:51:19 -0500

Message no. 26 From: "Brian W. Allison" <bwa550s%NIC.SMSU.EDU@***.spcs.umn.edu>
>I *LIKE* that idea. Unfortunately, One of the mages I run has Personal
>Physical Barrier(6) quickened on himself.

He'll be dead inside of a month. Why? "Anything the size of a molecule
(or smaller) can pass the barrier... Anything bigger [like, say, food]
treats a physical barrier as having a Barrier Rating equal to the spell's
Force" (SR2, p. 158) In order to _touch_ anything, much less eat (or drink -
revise the expected lifespan to a few days) it, it has to be forced through
the equivalent of "Heavy Material" - I'd read this as, for instance, the
exterior wall of a modern house. And Quickened spells can't be turned off.
Scratch one munchkin...

>"Resist a 9S LightWave."
>"Muahahahahahah!!!!!! NO PROBLEM."

Umm... Assuming that by "LightWave" you're talking about a laser weapon,
the barrier would have no effect. Photons are smaller than molecules, after
all... (And if the spell is modified to block photons, Mr. Munchkin will be
permanently in the dark, which may reduce his lifespan even more than the
inability to obtain water more than a molecule at a time...)

Also note that a physical barrier _is_ obviously visible and any attacks
crossing it have a +1 TN due to poor visibility through it.

esper@***.umn.edu

From:	"Brian W. Allison" <bwa550s@***.SMSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:04:20 -0500

Message no. 27 On Tue, 5 Apr 1994, Koert Vynckier wrote:

> >
> > [The body of almost 2 entire posts deleted....]
[make that 3 posts...]

First, the layering. Yep, I'm using the rule of Anarchy. I think its more
realistic. Not all combinations of armor are possible. Use the noggin.
And NO, I wouldn't allow a Fashion-ed suit of armor (to look like a suit
of clothes) to be combined with anything else. Might fit and look like a
suit, but it'd still be as bulky and heavy as armor.

Second, movement. I know it's lame, but RTM. There is a place it where
suggests that personal spells are centered on the person, not the place
(or is it a suggestion that area affect spells need to be centered on
...), frag it anyway. How else would an area-affect invisibility spell work?

Thirdly, the basics (like going to the john). A physical barrier is
something which resists attacks as per the spell description(s), not the
general category of physical entities.

(sorry if I'm too verbose guys...)

------------------------------------------
Brian (bwa550s@***.smsu.edu)
Michael Crawford = sing.god
(GEEK CODE) GCS d@ -p+ c++++!!!!! l u+(++) e+(++) m@(+/++/---) s@/@
!n--- h*(+) f+(?) !g(20/12) w+ t+ r+(++) y?

From:	"Brian W. Allison" <bwa550s@***.SMSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:17:27 -0500

Message no. 28 Ok... similar thread but slightly different flavor. (NOT praline-n-pecans :)

Idea by another Runner around here:
He has a mage and resists (vehemently) the idea of Initiation. Says it's
a Nazi-style plan to control aspects of the SR universe. "YOU MUST
INITIATE TO SURVIVE AS A MAGE!!" Is what he hears all the time. So, to
fix (hack?) that...

Since inactive spell locks aren't astrally active, he wants to spell lock
two (or more) spells. The first is Personal Mana Barrier. Once it's
active then he wants to spell lock something (anything else) on himself.
(Increase Initiative... I dunno) He quoted me that the locking magician
can activate/deactivate them at will - I don't know what kind of action
(complex, etc). Of course the personal mana barrier will make it
difficult for him to do anything astrally, such as spellcasting, even on
himself, but he doesn't mind. Says he is just trying to stop low-power
mages from harassing his spell locks.

Since astral barriers are opaque, you can't see inside to dispel the lock
itself and have to dispel the barrier or pass through it. He wants to lock
a force 6 or 8. Therefore you have to pass the barrier or dispel the
locked spell itself.

Comments/Harassments (of this idea! :)

------------------------------------------
Brian (bwa550s@***.smsu.edu)
Michael Crawford = sing.god
(GEEK CODE) GCS d@ -p+ c++++!!!!! l u+(++) e+(++) m@(+/++/---) s@/@
!n--- h*(+) f+(?) !g(20/12) w+ t+ r+(++) y?

From:	"Brian W. Allison" <bwa550s@***.SMSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:36:49 -0500

Message no. 29 On Tue, 5 Apr 1994, Dave Sherohman wrote:

[SNIP]
> I question whether that should apply to spells. If you want to apply Barrier

Check out the description of Barriers and damage. *gr* I wish I had my
books, I'd quote the d**n thing. To paraphrase, magical barriers are
reduced temporarily as has been suggested. They regenerate completely on
the magician's next action. So it would be possible for 30 people to
concentrate heavy fire on a Barrier'ed mage and in between his actions and
... kill him.

> esper@***.umn.edu

------------------------------------------
Brian (bwa550s@***.smsu.edu)
Michael Crawford = sing.god
(GEEK CODE) GCS d@ -p+ c++++!!!!! l u+(++) e+(++) m@(+/++/---) s@/@
!n--- h*(+) f+(?) !g(20/12) w+ t+ r+(++) y?

From:	Koert Vynckier <kvynckir@***.VUB.AC.BE>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Tue, 5 Apr 1994 19:49:01 DST

Message no. 30 >
> On Tue, 5 Apr 1994, Dave Sherohman wrote:
>
> [SNIP]
> > I question whether that should apply to spells. If you want to apply Barrier
>
> Check out the description of Barriers and damage. *gr* I wish I had my
> books, I'd quote the d**n thing. To paraphrase, magical barriers are
> reduced temporarily as has been suggested. They regenerate completely on
> the magician's next action. So it would be possible for 30 people to
> concentrate heavy fire on a Barrier'ed mage and in between his actions and
> ... kill him.
>
> > esper@***.umn.edu
>
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Brian (bwa550s@***.smsu.edu)
> Michael Crawford = sing.god
> (GEEK CODE) GCS d@ -p+ c++++!!!!! l u+(++) e+(++) m@(+/++/---) s@/@
> !n--- h*(+) f+(?) !g(20/12) w+ t+ r+(++) y?
>
The magical barrier comes back to full strenght on the next action of the mage who is
sustaining it, what initiative and actions would you use for a quickened spell ? The
initiative of the mage who has very little to do with the spell since it was given an own
circuit in astral space ?
The mage is no longer pumpimg energy into the spell (sustaining it) so I'm not so sure the
barrier would not deteriorate.

Night Owl

From:	Koert Vynckier <kvynckir@***.VUB.AC.BE>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Tue, 5 Apr 1994 20:00:49 DST

Message no. 31 >
> From: Koert Vynckier <kvynckir%IS1.VUB.AC.BE@***.spcs.umn.edu>
> >I didn't know you could make a barrier move along with you!
>
> Nothing is said directly, but it seems a fairly safe assumption that Personal
> Foo Barriers move with the person they're cast upon.
>
> >As for your barrier of 13 resisting an attack with power 9, no problem the atta
> c
> >k doesn't come through but the rating of the barrier is reduced by one.
>
> I question whether that should apply to spells. If you want to apply Barrier
> Degradation to spells, though, the 13 is the total Barrier+Armor protection;
> the Barrier is only BR 6, so the Power 9 would reduce BR by 2 and open a 0.5
> meter hole in the Barrier...
>
> esper@***.umn.edu
>
It should definitely apply to magical barriers as well, in Never Trust an Elf
There is a passage where a lot of sammies concentrate their fire on a mage with a barrier
around him, and eventually take him down.
As too the fact that the barrier rating would only be 6, I have doubts about that, I'm not
sure where I read it, but I think you may add your armor to the barrier rating provided by
the spell (in the spell-description maybe).

Night Owl

From:	"Brian W. Allison" <bwa550s@***.SMSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Tue, 5 Apr 1994 17:12:48 -0500

Message no. 32 Night Owl, et al,

deciding WHEN it comes back to full strength is a game mechanic!

If this is just a "CAN TOO CAN NOT CAN TOO"... enufs enuf.

If a GM doesn't like this idea... disallow it.
BTW, to your question of "How does it know to regenerate?". It 'knows' in
the same manner which any quickened spell follows a person on whom the
spell is centered/targeted. Hey, if a quickened spell can follow a person
around at all... there must be a form of intelligence. You could then
just use the spell's force as it's astral strength, give it an initiative
of F+20+D6 for initiave (or some such) and have a go.

I'm not sorry I raised so much objection, I only wish that some arguments
backed by logic had been offered.

------------------------------------------
Brian (bwa550s@***.smsu.edu)
Michael Crawford = sing.god
(GEEK CODE) GCS d@ -p+ c++++!!!!! l u+(++) e+(++) m@(+/++/---) s@/@
!n--- h*(+) f+(?) !g(20/12) w+ t+ r+(++) y?

From:	"Brian W. Allison" <bwa550s@***.SMSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Tue, 5 Apr 1994 17:17:40 -0500

Message no. 33 Um.... one more time. *grin*

To be accurate.
The barrier rating would actually reduce the power of the attack, or
deflect it entirely, before the attack got to armor. Firearms treat
barriers as twice their effective ratings, for purposes of
deflection/hole-creation/etc, someone check me on that? If the attack is
less than 1/2 the effective rating of the barrier, it is deflected no
prob. If it is less than the rating, the attack would lose power
equivalent to the rating of the barrier, etc, etc.

------------------------------------------
Brian (bwa550s@***.smsu.edu)
Michael Crawford = sing.god
(GEEK CODE) GCS d@ -p+ c++++!!!!! l u+(++) e+(++) m@(+/++/---) s@/@
!n--- h*(+) f+(?) !g(20/12) w+ t+ r+(++) y?

From:	Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Tue, 5 Apr 1994 20:25:14 -0500

Message no. 34 >> But then again, who fires light
>>weapons at heavy armor?

>People who left the elephant guns at home. Low-end gangers who can't afford
>anything better. "Respectable" citizens who want to carry the
smallest
>weapon they can find. In short, anyone lacking either the resources or the
>desire to carry heavy weapons on a regular basis (which should be just about
>everyone - Lone Star frowns on people carrying heavy weapons, you know...).

I don't see it. When I say light, I'm not talking about anything larger than
a light pistol. Personally, given a choice between plinking at an over-armored
goon with what might as well be a pea-shooter and running, I'll run.

>> Remember, all armor really does is keep the bullet from penetrating, and
>>absorb some of the impact. A tough man is more likely to walk away from a
>>gunshot wound than a weak one. But there's still damage to deal with, and
the
>>physically weak are still often SOL.

>You still seem to be thinking primarily in terms of soft armors - armored
>clothing (3/0) is the only 'pure' soft armor in SR; everything else has plates
>in it, while the Heavy and Security armors _are_ plates with a little
>ballistic cloth to hold them together. By my normal way of dealing with
>armor>Power, 'pure' soft armor would only give an extra Body die against
guns
>with a Power of 2 or less. With the extrapolation from the vehicle rules, it
>would give 1 extra Body - and a Body 1 character will _still_ probably die
>from the blunt trauma, _but_ it will be (at least a little) less likely than
>with no armor at all. And, quite simply, I can't believe that there is
>_anyone_ so weak or so frail that they're just as likely to die from blunt
>trauma as they are from taking the bullet directly.

First of all, I am talking primarily about softer armors. Why? How many
times can runners realistically use heavy armor? Not often IMHO, but one thing
at a time.

First of all, no no one is just as likely to die from trauma as from the
direct shot, but a character with a body of 1 is so likely to die from either,
it makes no odds, IMHO. When your body is that low, you simply can't deal with
the damage your armor lets through.

As for heavy armor, remember that the only armors that cover everything are
full heavy and security armor with helmet. Partial heavy and (the admittedly
borderline coud-go-either-way) armored jacket only cover vital areas, and it's
a lot easier for a bullet to hit the body, do damage, riccochet around
internally, and screw the target with woundshock.

Yeah, there are ways of dealing with this, but ultimately, weak people who
get into firefights, purposefully or not, get killed. Life sucks like that.

Matt

From:	"Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Tue, 5 Apr 1994 23:22:03 -0700

Message no. 35 I must disagree Nightowl. Penetration of body armor is not the end of damage
from a bullet. The transferal of kinetic energy can be staggering.

In my campaign we use the rules that if the Target number to resist damage is
less than 2 you get to add 2 minus Target Number dice to your body test.

As for people with Body of 1, they really are SOL in the damage taking
catagory. We are talking about little kids and pet animals here.

*******************************************************************************
* See Ya in Shadows * * "Keep your friends close, but keep *
* Jason J Carter * Carter@***.EDU * your enemies closer." *
* The Nightstalker * * Deep Throat -- The X-Files *
*******************************************************************************

From:	Koert Vynckier <kvynckir@***.VUB.AC.BE>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Wed, 6 Apr 1994 13:14:41 DST

Message no. 36 >
> I must disagree Nightowl. Penetration of body armor is not the end of damage
> from a bullet. The transferal of kinetic energy can be staggering.
>
> In my campaign we use the rules that if the Target number to resist damage is
> less than 2 you get to add 2 minus Target Number dice to your body test.
>
> As for people with Body of 1, they really are SOL in the damage taking
> catagory. We are talking about little kids and pet animals here.
>
> *******************************************************************************
> * See Ya in Shadows * * "Keep your friends close, but keep *
> * Jason J Carter * Carter@***.EDU * your enemies closer." *
> * The Nightstalker * * Deep Throat -- The X-Files *
> *******************************************************************************
>

I was talking about pistolshots, not shotguns or assaultrifles.
A shot from a pistol on a flack jacket will not penetrate and only give you a little push,
that is as hard as what the guy (or girl) doing the shooting has to resist to stay upright
(action and reaction you know).
This will NOT knock you off your feet, much less kill you.
(armor piercers are a different story)
Night Owl

From:	Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Wed, 6 Apr 1994 10:41:00 -0400

Message no. 37 >>>>> "Koert" == Koert Vynckier <kvynckir@***.VUB.AC.BE>
writes:

Koert> I was talking about pistolshots, not shotguns or assaultrifles.

It makes no difference. In fact, 9mmPara carries /more/ kinetic energy than
the 5.56mm NATO or US rounds do.

Koert> A shot from a pistol on a flack jacket will not penetrate and only
Koert> give you a little push,

Depends on the round and the jacket. A 9mmP won't penetrate a Type II vest,
but the .45 ACP will punch a very nice hole in it.

Koert> that is as hard as what the guy (or girl) doing the shooting has to
Koert> resist to stay upright (action and reaction you know).

Wrong again. The force implied by a person is distributed over the area of
his or her hand; a bullet's force is concentrated in a significantly
smaller area

Koert> This will NOT
Koert> knock you off your feet, much less kill you. (armor piercers are a
Koert> different story) Night Owl

From:	Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Wed, 6 Apr 1994 10:45:55 -0400

Message no. 38 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[Gah! sorry about this; I hit the wrong key and sent it incomplete]
>>>>> "Koert" == Koert Vynckier <kvynckir@***.VUB.AC.BE>
writes:

Koert> I was talking about pistolshots, not shotguns or assaultrifles.

It makes no difference. In fact, 9mmPara carries /more/ kinetic energy than
the 5.56mm NATO or US rounds do.

Koert> A shot from a pistol on a flack jacket will not penetrate and only
Koert> give you a little push,

Depends on the round and the jacket. A 9mmP won't penetrate a Type II
jacket, but the .45 ACP will punch a very nice hole in it, and you
underneath, thankyouverymuch.

Koert> that is as hard as what the guy (or girl) doing the shooting has to
Koert> resist to stay upright (action and reaction you know).

Wrong again. The force implied by a person is distributed over the area of
his or her hand; a bullet's force is concentrated in a significantly
smaller area. Energy transfer is a function of energy over area.

Koert> This will NOT knock you off your feet, much less kill you.

Now this is true. Any bullet that has enough force to knock someone over
(or throw them back) would do the same to the shooter. Newton's 3rd law
proves this one.

Koert> (armor piercers are a different story)

All depends on your definition of ``armor piercing.''

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| Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
| An it harm none, 'do what thou wilt' shall be the whole of the Law. |
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From:	Koert Vynckier <kvynckir@***.VUB.AC.BE>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Wed, 6 Apr 1994 17:05:31 DST

Message no. 39 >
> >>>>> "Koert" == Koert Vynckier
<kvynckir@***.VUB.AC.BE> writes:
>
> Koert> I was talking about pistolshots, not shotguns or assaultrifles.
>
> It makes no difference. In fact, 9mmPara carries /more/ kinetic energy than
> the 5.56mm NATO or US rounds do.
well, I do think the recoil from a shotgun to be significantly greater than
the recoil from a pistol.r
>
> Koert> A shot from a pistol on a flack jacket will not penetrate and only
> Koert> give you a little push,
>
> Depends on the round and the jacket. A 9mmP won't penetrate a Type II vest,
> but the .45 ACP will punch a very nice hole in it.
Of course.
>
> Koert> that is as hard as what the guy (or girl) doing the shooting has to
> Koert> resist to stay upright (action and reaction you know).
>
> Wrong again. The force implied by a person is distributed over the area of
> his or her hand; a bullet's force is concentrated in a significantly
> smaller area
That makes no difference!
The pressure will be greater, but supposing you have a good enough jacket
the force the shooter experiences (well a bit less due to friction) will hit
the target. If your jacket is not strong enough (i.e. can't stand the pressure)
the bullet will go through.
On a hard jacket the force would be distributed over a larger area.
If the area of the gun-butt (is this English ?) was not singnificantly greater
than the area of the bullet, the hand of the shooter would be pierced.
So really, the force a bullet hits a sufficiantly hard armor, is not all that
great.
>
> Koert> This will NOT
> Koert> knock you off your feet, much less kill you. (armor piercers are a
> Koert> different story) Night Owl
>

From:	ewok slayer <jclegg@******.FSC.MASS.EDU>
Subject:	Big time Armor
Date:	Wed, 6 Apr 1994 18:32:09 EDT

Message no. 40 Fow about we have all hold-out and light pistols inefective
against heavy armors. This will make everybody happy and not unduly unbalence
the game.

* Darkstar

From:	Enos Michel CDT <x62674e3@******.USMA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time Armor
Date:	Wed, 6 Apr 1994 21:29:53 EDT

Message no. 41 Here's my two cents worth:

1. Military body armor IS designed to stop fragments-not direct shots.

2. A friend of mine who was involved in the gulf war had his Bradley fighting
vehicle shot up by a .50 cal.Still think personal body armor will stop that?
Nah.

3. I think that SRII actually has one of the better ballistic combat systems.
But if you are looking for more info on body armor and killing effects, there
was a very comprehensive book published a couple of years back-sorry I can't
remember the name.

4. Anybody out there ever heard of the UCAS-12? Looks like an oversized M-16,
with a 10 round magazine or a 20 round drum. Nice. FN (Fabrique Ntionale ,sp?
of Belgium, incidentially now makes the Army and USMC's two primary weapons the
M16A2 and the SAW) unveiled a little weapon called the P40 a few years back.
Fired a new round, and supposedly had about 2x the power of a 5.56mm.

Mike
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MICHEL A. ENOS | "Who's the more foolish, the fool or the fool who
CDT CPL, '96, E-3 | follows him?"
USCC | Obi-Wan Kenobi

From:	Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time Armor
Date:	Thu, 7 Apr 1994 18:18:29 -0400

Message no. 42 >>>>> "Enos" == Enos Michel CDT <x62674e3@******.USMA.EDU>
writes:

Enos> 1. Military body armor IS designed to stop fragments-not direct
Enos> shots.

Yup.

Enos> 2. A friend of mine who was involved in the gulf war had his Bradley
Enos> fighting vehicle shot up by a .50 cal.Still think personal body armor
Enos> will stop that? Nah.

A friend of mine drives a C&C vehicle (Command and Control), which is a
Bradley with a bunch of commo gear in it. The hull might stop small arms
fire or shrap, but anything bigger than 7mm to 9mm is going to make Swiss
Cheeze of it. He's looking for a transfer, BTW :).

Enos> 3. I think that SRII actually has one of the better ballistic combat
Enos> systems.

Supprisingly, if you use the heroic rules from the HERO sytem 4th edition
you get some very realistic results. Firearms really are deadly, and
regardless of what you come up with for armor, you can be certain that
something will very quickly come along designed to defeat it.

Enos> But if you are looking for more info on body armor and killing
Enos> effects, there was a very comprehensive book published a couple of
Enos> years back-sorry I can't remember the name.

Anything with the name ``Jane's'' on it comes to mind.

Enos> 4. Anybody out there ever heard of the UCAS-12? Looks like an
Enos> oversized M-16, with a 10 round magazine or a 20 round drum. Nice.

Not really something new. The Bernadelli B4 and B4/B, Beretta M3P, H&K CAWS
resemble many assault carbines. Then there are the Jackhammer and Striker,
both of which use drum cartridges for quick loading.

Enos> FN (Fabrique Ntionale ,sp? of Belgium, incidentially now makes the
Enos> Army and USMC's two primary weapons the M16A2 and the SAW)

Better than Mattel. Or are they still subcontracting on the plastics?

Enos> unveiled a little weapon called the P40 a few years back. Fired a new
Enos> round, and supposedly had about 2x the power of a 5.56mm.

Neat. Then again, the 5.56mm rounds aren't all that powerful to begin with,
one reason that many countries are sticking with the 7.62mm.

BTW, I did some checking about the SPAS-12 and SPAS-15. Both are
semiautomatic shotguns firing 18.5x70mmR cartridges (that means they're the
same gauge). The SPAS-12 has an 8-round tubular magazine and fires 24 rpm.
The SPAS-15 has a 6-round box magazine (ie, a clip) and fires 30 rpm. The
SPAS-15 is basically a militarized version of the SPAS-12.

BTW again, SPAS is Special Purpose Automatic Shotgun or Sporting Purpose
Automatic Shotgun, depending upon who's purchasing it.

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| Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
| Always remember, no matter where you go, there you are. --Buckaroo Banzai |
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From:	Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Big Time armor
Date:	Mon, 11 Apr 1994 15:31:42 -0400

Message no. 43 I think the sane way to deal with heavy armor is with social
pressure, not by making guns more lethal.

If people go into good areas wearing combat-level armor, the
cops *will* hassle them. Be prepared to be stopped every time
a cop comes by and have your ID checked, along with your carry
permits for any weapons you happen to have. On bad days, your
vehicles will be checked too. And people will react badly.
Delays, bad PR, lots of unwelcome attention. The characters will
get the point.

- cks

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