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Message no. 1
From: "Graves, Durand E. (Temporary at ALCOA)" <Durand.Graves@*****.COM>
Subject: Bio-Armor
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:48:55 -0500
Does Anyone out there have any ideas as to the development of Bio-Armor in
SR? How would it start? Would it be Metallic or chitinous? silicon-based
or carbon-based?
Trying fervently to develop this, but keep hitting dead-ends.

-DEG.
Message no. 2
From: James Paul Morgan <jpmorgan@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bio-Armor
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:13:14 -0700
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Graves, Durand E. (Temporary at ALCOA) wrote:

> Does Anyone out there have any ideas as to the development of Bio-Armor in
> SR? How would it start? Would it be Metallic or chitinous? silicon-based
> or carbon-based?
> Trying fervently to develop this, but keep hitting dead-ends.
>

Well, "chitinous" could be some by-produce of research on flesh-form
insect spirits. In fact, IMC I have hives capable of growing armor and
weapons for their warriors. (Similar in appearance to the hive walls in
that Aliens movie(s).)


If you have Shadowtech, look up the orthoskin. That might make a good
starting point. (Except that it would be part of a "suit" instead of the
body.)



Hey, you could really mess with the players, make them "feed" their armor.
*grin*


See ya around the Mulberry bush.

--James
(Mission Specialist for the Ventrue on Mars project.)

:)
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Bio-Armor
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:46:18 -0700
Graves, Durand E. wrote:
/
/ Does Anyone out there have any ideas as to the development of Bio-Armor in
/ SR? How would it start? Would it be Metallic or chitinous? silicon-based
/ or carbon-based?
/ Trying fervently to develop this, but keep hitting dead-ends.

Your talking some serious gene manipulation, if it's done purely with
purely scientific methods. If you toss magic into the mix it gets
easier, sort of :)

All IMHO.

Science: takes longer, *very* expensive, but once it works less
resources are required to sustain it, and you have access to a
broader range of materials.

Magic: faster development time (relatively speaking), lower
development costs, but you'll probably end up with something that's
powered by magic so each unit will be very expensive and have a high
upkeep cost, and you're limited to natural materials (those that
don't interfere with magic).

So, if you go the scientific route you can end up with bioarmor that
utilizes ceramics and titanium and only needs sunlight, water, and
some nutrients to keep it alive. But your limited to the basics
(strength enhancement and protection for the wearer). However cyber-
and bio-enhancements can be incorporated.

Magically created bioarmor won't be as tough, but by using genes from
paranormal critters you have some fun options (some critter powers).
However, creating and sustaining the armor is going to require the
services of a mage, or several mages.

I hope that gave you some good ideas :)

-David
--
"Who dares nothing, need hope for nothing." - Johann von Schiller
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 4
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Bio-Armor
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:45:32 +0000
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:48:55 -0500 "Graves, Durand E. asked

> Does Anyone out there have any ideas as to the development of Bio-Armor in
> SR? How would it start? Would it be Metallic or chitinous? silicon-based
> or carbon-based?
> Trying fervently to develop this, but keep hitting dead-ends.

If you are talking about an armour that is effectively grown then I
strongly suggest going for carbon based instead of silicon. The
problem with chains of Silicon molecules is that they spontaneously
combust when exposed to oxygen. Unless of course you want the first
test model to have the flaw that it bursts into flame once pierced :)

If you are talking about armour that repairs itself then a
possibility would be using memory (smart) metals. It would be a
slight exageration to have it seal holes completely but normaly after
a penetrating hit there will be portions of armour still attached but
bent inwards or outwards depending on where they are. Using memory
materials would mean that they could seal up most of the hole and
only a lucky shot should hit the bullet sized hole on a moving
target.

Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
Message no. 5
From: "Graves, Durand E. (Temporary at ALCOA)" <Durand.Graves@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bio-Armor
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:00:48 -0500
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:50:30 Fox wrote:
>If you are talking about an armour that is effectively grown then I
>strongly suggest going for carbon based instead of silicon. The
>problem with chains of Silicon molecules is that they spontaneously
>combust when exposed to oxygen. Unless of course you want the first
>test model to have the flaw that it bursts into flame once pierced :)

>If you are talking about armour that repairs itself then a
>possibility would be using memory (smart) metals. It would be a
>slight exageration to have it seal holes completely but normaly after
>a penetrating hit there will be portions of armour still attached but
>bent inwards or outwards depending on where they are. Using memory
>materials would mean that they could seal up most of the hole and
>only a lucky shot should hit the bullet sized hole on a moving
>target.

Close, but not quite. I would like to know more about the "smart" metals,
but I'm looking for something similar to what is seen in "The Guyver", or
"Spawn". Metallic protection, biological containment and regeneration, and
a source of limited weaponry. The only thoughts that I've been able to
brainstorm is to use the atomic structure of (meta)human biology and
somehow "bond" a metallic, or semi-metallic structure to it, hence making
the armor a part of the person. An extension of the body or new "limb", if
you will, fully controllable with the mind. Perhaps the armor is grown and
has its own life force, but these are just a few ideas. I, unfortunately,
don't have the educational background to figure out the details, only the
imagination to drive me crazy.
Message no. 6
From: James Paul Morgan <jpmorgan@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bio-Armor
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:06:37 -0700
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Graves, Durand E. (Temporary at ALCOA) wrote:

> I, unfortunately,
> don't have the educational background to figure out the details, only the
> imagination to drive me crazy.
>


Oh, that's easy. Make up a new science. Then you don't have to have the
educational background. Or, do what I did for one of my plotlines, nobody
but the guy who invented it understands how it works. (Oh, SURE, they
come up with long multi-syllable words to describe it, but they don't mean
much.) Of course that makes the designer of critical importance.... which
can lead to run ideas.


PC: "What's it made of?"
TECH: "Dunno."
PC: "What's this stuff?"
TECH: "Dunno."
PC: "What principals is it based on?"
TECH: "Dunno."
PC: "What do you know?"
TECH: "Which buttons to push."



See ya around the Mulberry bush.

--James
(Mission Specialist for the Ventrue on Mars project.)

:)
Message no. 7
From: "Graves, Durand E. (Temporary at ALCOA)" <Durand.Graves@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bio-Armor
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:13:33 -0500
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:08:26, James Wrote,

>Oh, that's easy. Make up a new science. Then you don't have to have the
>educational background. Or, do what I did for one of my plotlines,
nobody
>but the guy who invented it understands how it works. (Oh, SURE, they
>come up with long multi-syllable words to describe it, but they don't
mean
>much.) Of course that makes the designer of critical importance....
which
>can lead to run ideas.


Sure, if you can convince my GM to accept that I would gladly appreciate
it. Thanks for the thought, though. I'm researching as a "character"
that's looking for a way to build his own Bio-Armor.


-DEG.
Message no. 8
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Bio-Armor
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:00:24 -0700
Graves, Durand E. wrote:
/
/ Close, but not quite. I would like to know more about the "smart" metals,
/ but I'm looking for something similar to what is seen in "The Guyver", or
/ "Spawn". Metallic protection, biological containment and regeneration, and
/ a source of limited weaponry. The only thoughts that I've been able to
/ brainstorm is to use the atomic structure of (meta)human biology and
/ somehow "bond" a metallic, or semi-metallic structure to it, hence making
/ the armor a part of the person. An extension of the body or new "limb", if
/ you will, fully controllable with the mind. Perhaps the armor is grown and
/ has its own life force, but these are just a few ideas. I, unfortunately,
/ don't have the educational background to figure out the details, only the
/ imagination to drive me crazy.

/ [add from another post: gotta convince the GM]

Well, it sounds like you've already figured it out, and all without
the educational background :)

Listen, if your character has the skills it shouldn't matter whether
or not you know anything about it. Create it, describe it, list the
stats, abilities, powers, ratings, weaknesses, and drawbacks. Then
hand it to the GM and let him decide if it's balanced for his
campaign. Then negotiate the cost. If either one, or both, of you
decides it a molycirc, ceramic/titanium frame wrapped up by a gene
sequencing lifeform spliced from a shapeshifter, then great. If you
(the players) don't know how it works, who cares? The whole point of
the game is to have fun.

If your GM is nitpicking the details slap him upside the head and
tell him it's a game.

(Did I just rant? :)

-David
--
"Who dares nothing, need hope for nothing." - Johann von Schiller
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 9
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Bio-Armor
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:53:17 GMT
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:45:32 +0000, Andy Gardner wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:48:55 -0500 "Graves, Durand E. asked
>
> > Does Anyone out there have any ideas as to the development of Bio-Armor in
> > SR? How would it start? Would it be Metallic or chitinous? silicon-based
> > or carbon-based?
> > Trying fervently to develop this, but keep hitting dead-ends.
>
> If you are talking about an armour that is effectively grown then I
> strongly suggest going for carbon based instead of silicon. The
> problem with chains of Silicon molecules is that they spontaneously
> combust when exposed to oxygen. Unless of course you want the first
> test model to have the flaw that it bursts into flame once pierced :)

Does that include "polarized silicate"?



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 10
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Bio-Armor
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:20:43 +0000
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:53:17 GMT James Lindsay wrote

> On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:45:32 +0000, Andy Gardner wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:48:55 -0500 "Graves, Durand E. asked
> >
> > > Does Anyone out there have any ideas as to the development of Bio-Armor in
> > > SR? How would it start? Would it be Metallic or chitinous? silicon-based
> > > or carbon-based?
> > > Trying fervently to develop this, but keep hitting dead-ends.
> >
> > If you are talking about an armour that is effectively grown then I
> > strongly suggest going for carbon based instead of silicon. The
> > problem with chains of Silicon molecules is that they spontaneously
> > combust when exposed to oxygen. Unless of course you want the first
> > test model to have the flaw that it bursts into flame once pierced :)
>
> Does that include "polarized silicate"?

I'm not entirely certain what you mean with "polarized"

The main problem is if the structure of the material onvolves many
Silicons joined together to form a long silicon chain. From a
chemical point of view the bonds between silicon atoms are less
favourable than the bonds between silicon and oxygen.

Polarisation from the point of rotating or filtering light will not
affect the bond problem. If you mean polarisation as in ionic then
you have avoided the bond problem, but most ionic things are crystals
and therefore prone to fracturing along stress lines, or else have
properties very similar to rocks.

Hope that's helped somewhat.

Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
Message no. 11
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bio-Armor
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:12:04 -0500
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:48:55 -0500 "Graves, Durand E. (Temporary at
ALCOA)" <Durand.Graves@*****.COM> writes:
>Does Anyone out there have any ideas as to the development of Bio-Armor
in
>SR? How would it start? Would it be Metallic or chitinous?
silicon-based
>or carbon-based?
>Trying fervently to develop this, but keep hitting dead-ends.


You might want to be a bit more explicit in what you're talking about.
Are you talking about powered armor with some sort of biological/neural
interface? Or some sort of living, organic version of the same? If its
the former, I know there's more than one take on powered armor on the
web. If it's the latter, you might consider checking out NERPS: Lost and
Found, which contains an article on similar stuff.

Canthros
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864
Message no. 12
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Bio-Armor
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:57:37 GMT
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:20:43 +0000, Andy Gardner wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:53:17 GMT James Lindsay wrote
>
> > On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:45:32 +0000, Andy Gardner wrote:
> >
> > > If you are talking about an armour that is effectively grown then I
> > > strongly suggest going for carbon based instead of silicon. The
> > > problem with chains of Silicon molecules is that they spontaneously
> > > combust when exposed to oxygen. Unless of course you want the first
> > > test model to have the flaw that it bursts into flame once pierced :)
> >
> > Does that include "polarized silicate"?
>
> I'm not entirely certain what you mean with "polarized"

It's from Leading Edge Games' "Aliens" RPG. They use the term a few times
to describe the exoskeleton of the creatures, as well as the egg casings.
Just wondering if they had simply grabbed a phrase out of the air or
actually knew a little bit about what they were talking about (*where* they
got the idea, I am not certain).




James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 13
From: Aaron Jones <aaronj@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Bio-Armor
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:59:33 -0500
>
>Close, but not quite. I would like to know more about the "smart" metals,
>but I'm looking for something similar to what is seen in "The Guyver", or
>"Spawn". Metallic protection, biological containment and regeneration, and
>a source of limited weaponry. The only thoughts that I've been able to
>brainstorm is to use the atomic structure of (meta)human biology and
>somehow "bond" a metallic, or semi-metallic structure to it, hence making
>the armor a part of the person. An extension of the body or new "limb", if
>you will, fully controllable with the mind. Perhaps the armor is grown and
>has its own life force, but these are just a few ideas. I, unfortunately,
>don't have the educational background to figure out the details, only the
>imagination to drive me crazy.
>
<DISCLAIMER>: It's late and I'm tired. If this makes at least a
little sense, we'll all be lucky. I know it looks like a stream of thought
post. It is. Consider it another daily challenge.

Hmm...Spawn...Maybe you could combine a couple visual images to get
an idea, like puting T2 together with Spawn..Use a combination of smart
materials and memory metal...You have a flat piece of metal, but when you
apply a certain charge, it changes shape. That could make for a neat little
change to spurs. For biological protection, something like titanium-laced
cartilage with a feedback (pain) system which will cause extra stiffness
(see gel pack armor). Those two could be placed under the skin.
For an extendable limb (Darn it, all these comic book images keep
popping to mind)m like in T2, maybe some synthesis of a biological substance
based off of silicon instead of carbon in a near liquid state, controlled by
a biological means interfacing with your mind like an organic datajack.
Maybe the thing could be built, or encouraged to grow using nanites. If
nanites are used, perhaps an intial injection could begin the process with a
finger, work its way throughout the skin, enter the bones of the extremities
and work their way towards the center of the body. This could have some
pretty freaky consequences, like the eventual lack of vital organs, as your
"body" no longer requires oxygen, or at least not through a circulitory
system...Hmm...Maybe have the skin "breathe" on its own...No longer need to
use your lungs, except maybe to support your brain functions, and the skin
might even be able to extract oxygen from water. Blood would probably still
be needed, even if only to carry nutrients around the body, but it could be
push around by every vein contracting in pulses (think of how your throat
moves when you swallow).
Hmm...The more changes and potential I see, the more radical it
becomes. Likely, if this ever became feasible (HA!) it would require a
sequence of treatments, with each installment reprogramming the previous
nanites...
Well, that's enough from me, feel free to post, comment, rip to
shreds, and generally nitpick. Good night.

Aaron (Still looking for a SIG) Jones
aaronj@******.com
Message no. 14
From: Wyrmy <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Bio-Armor
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:23:23 -0600
>
> >
> >Close, but not quite. I would like to know more about the "smart"
metals,
> >but I'm looking for something similar to what is seen in "The Guyver"

Ok. Lets see.How about it's one of those unexplainable phenonoms, A new
critter/adept power,or even better, or an alien artifact.I can see it
now.A shadowrunner is payed say, A hundred Grand to try out this new
cyber Weapon.What he doesent realize is that this piece of tech is an
alien artifact left behind by some ancient race,Just to name them we'll
call them the Cetra.So the cetra were doing some weapon projects,on the
resident lifeforms of this planet. Then suddenly The natives
rebel,forcing the cetra to leave the planet in a big hurry.They leave
behind one of their weapon pods filled with an unspecified amount of
"Guyver units".Over time thes units degrad until there is only one
remaining Guyver unit.Then in say,2058 this remaining unit is found by
ares.So they hire a runner, They put him in a room with the unit. He
gets curious and messes with it.When he sticks his face real close to
the rim of the pod to read what looks like writing,He reads the phrase
:Say Guyver ands cause the change,he then slips and his forehead comes
into contact with the silver globe in the middle of the unit.The unit
turns on and starts implanting itself into him.It causaes him a lot of
pain.But when it finishes that he stands up,looks at himself in the
mirror, and taking one look at himself screams"nooooooo!!!!" The armor
then retracts.He expriments for a while,mAnd just as thes corp Brainiacs
come to check on him he figures out how to cause the armor to
extend.Just as the suits walk in he says "Guyver". The suits Gasp li,ke
Fish on land.He turns And says "cool Aint it?". Then when the suits try
to keep him from leaving he extends the armor and busts out.
Message no. 15
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Bio-Armor
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 00:45:26 EST
In a message dated 98-01-17 23:51:31 EST, aaronj@******.COM writes:

> <DISCLAIMER>: It's late and I'm tired. If this makes at least a
> little sense, we'll all be lucky. I know it looks like a stream of thought
> post. It is. Consider it another daily challenge.

Oh these are always the best kind.

> Hmm...Spawn...Maybe you could combine a couple visual images to get
> an idea, like puting T2 together with Spawn..Use a combination of smart
> materials and memory metal...You have a flat piece of metal, but when you
> apply a certain charge, it changes shape. That could make for a neat
little
> change to spurs. For biological protection, something like titanium-laced
> cartilage with a feedback (pain) system which will cause extra stiffness
> (see gel pack armor). Those two could be placed under the skin.

OUCH! This would be just tres'cool IMHO, but way into the nastier side of
game mechanics. A rigger here once did something similar for his idea of a
"monoblade". It was a "monowhip" until a specific charge was
applied...you
get the idea.

Smart Materials for Cyberweaponry. I guess a HUGE question would have to be
asked (JON, this is for you, you started this, you get your butt involved...
;). To what extent are Smart Materials in existence within the realm(s) of
Shadowrun?

> For an extendable limb (Darn it, all these comic book images keep
> popping to mind)m like in T2, maybe some synthesis of a biological
substance
> based off of silicon instead of carbon in a near liquid state, controlled
by
> a biological means interfacing with your mind like an organic datajack.
> Maybe the thing could be built, or encouraged to grow using nanites. If

Oh, I was told Nanites were at this level...so sorry, according to one poster,
this idea is RIGHT OUT!!! But I'm gonna keep reading anyway...

> nanites are used, perhaps an intial injection could begin the process with
a
> finger, work its way throughout the skin, enter the bones of the
extremities
> and work their way towards the center of the body. This could have some
> pretty freaky consequences, like the eventual lack of vital organs, as your
> "body" no longer requires oxygen, or at least not through a circulitory
> system...Hmm...Maybe have the skin "breathe" on its own...No longer need
to
> use your lungs, except maybe to support your brain functions, and the skin
> might even be able to extract oxygen from water. Blood would probably
still
> be needed, even if only to carry nutrients around the body, but it could be
> push around by every vein contracting in pulses (think of how your throat
> moves when you swallow).

Ah, the "viral variation" of Nanites. This is what the other guy was griping
about. It is this example that he was most afraid of (eventual Grey Goo).
The source material for the Nanites becomes the biggest area of argument here,
IMHO. And ya know, the "Total Aerobic Membrane" idea would be stunning for
Bioware...

> Hmm...The more changes and potential I see, the more radical it
> becomes. Likely, if this ever became feasible (HA!) it would require a
> sequence of treatments, with each installment reprogramming the previous
> nanites...

This is part of that "material source" comment I made above. Just what does
what become and so on...

> Well, that's enough from me, feel free to post, comment, rip to
> shreds, and generally nitpick. Good night.

Oh no, this one is way too cool and gave me a hell of an idea in general...we
already had Photoprotiase Organs here, and Bioamps for that matter...but
you've given a good one...

-K

Further Reading

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