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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Mon May 21 02:30:01 2001
Hi. I've had a few thoughts on the existing bioware/cyberware et al
rules & implants. (Before I begin, I would say that Shadowrun's
current bioware system is actually among the better ones out
there. About the only one I'd say is better is GURPS Biotech (and the
related Transhuman Space products that are in the process of coming
out), and it doesn't have the headaches of worrying about effects on
magic - at least, not with the standard GURPS magic system(s).) As per
my earlier message, sorry if any of these have been exhaustively
discussed before (I _have_ looked through the last few months of the
list's archives), and be forewarned that none of my (attempted)
answers have been playtested at all. I've also got some ideas for new
bioware and cyberware, and will post them before long for comment
before I put them up on archive.dumpshock.com.

First, I'm afraid the rules regarding neural bioware having to be
Cultured don't make much sense. At least for the brain itself, there's
_less_ concern about immunoreactivity than with any other portion of
the body. (It is, however, still at least somewhat of a concern, given
that while immune system cells _normally_ (meningitis and various
autoimmune disorders like Multiple Sclerosis being exceptions) don't
get into the brain, antibodies will (at least via the areas of the
brain - mainly associated with hormonal function - that have less of a
blood-brain barrier).) While the current listings for neural bioware
can indeed be considered to be Cultured, it should be perfectly
possible to get non-Cultured versions (reversing the normal
modifiers.) I would suggest, however, as a limit on this, that the
current limits regarding availability of Cultured bioware implantation
still be followed for neural bioware, even if it's normal-grade.
Implanting things into the brain is still going to be tricky.
(It may be argued that the Awakened would be quite sensitive
to the implantation of non-Cultured neuralware. Two possible rules to
take this into account:
A. Non-Cultured neuralware cannot give any bonuses for
magic. For instance, a Cerebral Booster that was not
Cultured would not bonus Intelligence for purposes of
magic.
B. The Awakened suffer Essence losses, equal to the added Bio
Index, if they receive non-Cultured neuralware. (This is
similar to the original Shadowtech rule on the subject.)
A combination of the above two rules may be most suitable, using the
first for neuralware likely to boost magic and the second for other
neuralware.) Conversely, Pathogenic Defense almost certainly has to be
Cultured - otherwise, you've got something that doesn't look quite
right sitting directly inside where the immune system is most
active. The doses of immunosuppressants necessary to get it to behave
would probably give the person the Weak Immune System flaw, which
would leave the system rather useless! Similarly, if Symbiotes are
capable of helping against cancer (M&M pg 59; Nanosymbiotes should
probably give the same benefit, BTW), they will need to be Cultured to
be able to recognize properly behaving cells.

Second, one problem with the original M&M rules that has been spotted
and put in the errata is that Symbiotes should not be decreasing
healing rates. However, they aren't the only bioware which shouldn't
have as much effect on healing and immunity:
A. The Digestive Expansion should not decrease immunity vs
ingested toxins;
B. The Nephritic Screen should not decrease immunity vs blood
toxins and pathogens;
C. The Pathogenic Defense should not decrease immunity vs
pathogens;
D. The Toxin Extractor should not decrease immunity vs blood
toxins; and
E. The Tracheal Filter should not decrease immunity vs inhaled
toxins.

Third, why should Kevlar Bone Lacing, which is described as being
_around_ bones and joints (and, for realism's sake, should probably
also be considered to be around various other major organs), be
incompatible with other forms of bone lacing? I suggest that it
wouldn't be.

Fourth, I can see why Flex Hands would be incompatible with the
damage-increasing effects of Bone Lacing (except for Kick Attacks
using the Martial Arts rules). Why would it be incompatible with the
armor & Body-boosting effects?

Fifth, I can see limiting the level of Encephalons for normal
characters to 2; as M&M (pg 20) states, higher-level Encephalons
exceed the ability of the brain to manipulate data. But what about
characters with an increased ability to handle such, i.e., those with
Intelligence above 6 already due to bioware, natural ability, or other
causes?

Sixth, the Trauma Damper implant is a nice one (especially for mages -
remind me to post my "enhanced mage" archetype/character at some
point). However, it's got to include somewhat more than the
description says - just damping pain et al isn't going to affect
physical injury. Various immunomodulators (mainly for the inflammatory
response) plus (if blood pressure is too low) sympathetic nervous
system effects on peripheral blood flow (to decrease bleeding) should
be added; there are sufficient side effects from these (similar to why
one feels woozy when ill, for instance) to explain the conversion to
Stun damage. I don't think this will have much game effect, however,
although GMs may wish to describe people with Trauma Dampers who've
taken physical damage that's converted into Stun as "woozy and pale"
(the pale being from the peripheral blood flow effects).

Seventh, what is the healing rate for someone with Light Physical
injuries and Nanosymbiotes? One can't decrease the healing rate to the
level below Light... Halving the base time to 12 hours would make
sense.

Eighth, it is not specified in M&M whether Symbiotes (or, for that
matter, Nanosymbiotes, although the system for them _really_ doesn't
make sense for it) help in healing Stun damage (as opposed to just
Physical damage). In Shadowtech, Symbiotes are stated to help in
healing "physical and mental" damage. I wouldn't allow them to
help with Stun damage, personally.

Yours,

-Allen

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Mon May 21 05:55:01 2001
On Mon, 21 May 2001 02:36:02 -0400 "Allen Smith"
<easmith@********.rutgers.edu> writes:
<SNIP>
> B. The Awakened suffer Essence losses, equal to the added Bio
> Index, if they receive non-Cultured neuralware. (This is
> similar to the original Shadowtech rule on the subject.)

This places the mages in double jeopardy in addition to favoring
non-mages like the shadowtech rules. The Essence loss lowers the mage's
Essence Index, which lowers the point at which the mage suffers additonal
penalties for bioware. Since you're still charging the bio index, it's
about as bad as charging the mage twice. Why not say that the mages have
sensitive system flaw for free? It's worse than what you were describing,
but is more line with the line of though, IMO.

<SNIP>
> Conversely, Pathogenic Defense almost certainly has to
> be
> Cultured - otherwise, you've got something that doesn't look quite
> right sitting directly inside where the immune system is most
> active.

Not necessarily, as I understand bioware, non-cultured bioware is immune
system neutral, and cultured is actively immune system friendly. The
question is: Is there is a difference between the two? As I understand
the workings of the immune system, there isn't. Some who has Type B blood
can receive types B and O blood, because of the lack of an A. When the
immune system sees something "extra", something that doesn't belong, it
attacks. If something is missing something, but doesn't have something
extra, the immune system doesn't "see" it. If I'm wrong, I'm sure some
medical type person will rise up and smack me or somethig ... ;)

<SNIP>
> Similarly, if Symbiotes are
> capable of helping against cancer (M&M pg 59; Nanosymbiotes should
> probably give the same benefit, BTW), they will need to be Cultured
> to
> be able to recognize properly behaving cells.

Hmm ... this makes some sense ... unless the symbiotes had some way of
adapting to the body ... perhaps a tailored (tailored to the symbiotes,
not the recipient) virus?

> Second, one problem with the original M&M rules that has been
> spotted
> and put in the errata is that Symbiotes should not be decreasing
> healing rates. However, they aren't the only bioware which
> shouldn't
> have as much effect on healing and immunity:
> A. The Digestive Expansion should not decrease immunity vs
> ingested toxins;
<SNIP>

Well, It could change the definition of toxins rather than being exempt
to that rule... ;)


> Third, why should Kevlar Bone Lacing, which is described as being
> _around_ bones and joints (and, for realism's sake, should probably
> also be considered to be around various other major organs), be
> incompatible with other forms of bone lacing? I suggest that it
> wouldn't be.

I would say that it's not compatable due to diminishing returns.
Therefore, you can implant two forms of bone lacing but you only recieve
the highest bonus in each area of increase. Of course you get all the
essence loss ... ;)

> Fourth, I can see why Flex Hands would be incompatible with the
> damage-increasing effects of Bone Lacing (except for Kick Attacks
> using the Martial Arts rules). Why would it be incompatible with
> the
> armor & Body-boosting effects?

As far as I know, it's not. IIRC, you can get two full cyberlimb
replacements without losing the effects of bone lacing ...

> Fifth, I can see limiting the level of Encephalons for normal
> characters to 2; as M&M (pg 20) states, higher-level Encephalons
> exceed the ability of the brain to manipulate data. But what about
> characters with an increased ability to handle such, i.e., those
> with
> Intelligence above 6 already due to bioware, natural ability, or
> other
> causes?

I take that as meaning a level 3 is beyond the limits of the metahuman
brain at its ultimate ability to manipulate data ... which may be a
little off since someone with an Intelligence of 1 can get an Encephalon.
That may, however, indicate that the ability to manipulate data is not
related to Intelligence ...

<SNIP>
> Eighth, it is not specified in M&M whether Symbiotes (or, for that
> matter, Nanosymbiotes, although the system for them _really_
> doesn't
> make sense for it) help in healing Stun damage (as opposed to just
> Physical damage). In Shadowtech, Symbiotes are stated to help in
> healing "physical and mental" damage. I wouldn't allow them to
> help with Stun damage, personally.

Since unarmed damage causes stun damage, IMO, it makes sense that
although Stun is not Physical Damage, it still has physical components
and thus can be healed by Nano/Symbiotes. A more, IMO, sensible ruling is
that there are types of Stun damage that are beyond their ability to heal
...

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Mon May 21 21:15:00 2001
>First, I'm afraid the rules regarding neural bioware having to be
>Cultured don't make much sense. At least for the brain itself, there's
>_less_ concern about immunoreactivity than with any other portion of
>the body. (It is, however, still at least somewhat of a concern, given
>that while immune system cells _normally_ (meningitis and various
>autoimmune disorders like Multiple Sclerosis being exceptions) don't
>get into the brain, antibodies will (at least via the areas of the
>brain - mainly associated with hormonal function - that have less of a
>blood-brain barrier).)

An intersting point.

>While the current listings for neural bioware
>can indeed be considered to be Cultured, it should be perfectly
>possible to get non-Cultured versions (reversing the normal
>modifiers.)

If immunology were no big concern, why would non-cultured versions have a
higher BI cost / lower nuyen cost? Perhaps nueral bioware is considered
clonal because its BI can't be reduced by making it clonal.

>I would suggest, however, as a limit on this, that the
>current limits regarding availability of Cultured bioware implantation
>still be followed for neural bioware, even if it's normal-grade.
>Implanting things into the brain is still going to be tricky.

Nueral Bioware is awfully cheap for clonal bioware, so I think thats
basically why its all automatically considered cultured bioware. It also
stops you from being able to yank the nueral bioware from some poor slob and
use it in somebody else.

> Conversely, Pathogenic Defense almost certainly has to be
>Cultured - otherwise, you've got something that doesn't look quite
>right sitting directly inside where the immune system is most
>active. The doses of immunosuppressants necessary to get it to behave
>would probably give the person the Weak Immune System flaw, which
>would leave the system rather useless! Similarly, if Symbiotes are
>capable of helping against cancer (M&M pg 59; Nanosymbiotes should
>probably give the same benefit, BTW), they will need to be Cultured to
>be able to recognize properly behaving cells.

ANY sort of bioware presumes immunoligicaly sophisticated matching that is
far beyond what we have today, I think. Solving the probelms of graft vs
host disease (which I think is partly what you are getting at above) isn't
unreasonable within the setting. Today, research on that sort of thing is
primative, but not hopeless.

>Second, one problem with the original M&M rules that has been spotted
>and put in the errata is that Symbiotes should not be decreasing
>healing rates. However, they aren't the only bioware which shouldn't
>have as much effect on healing and immunity:
> A. The Digestive Expansion should not decrease immunity vs
> ingested toxins;
> B. The Nephritic Screen should not decrease immunity vs blood
> toxins and pathogens;
> C. The Pathogenic Defense should not decrease immunity vs
> pathogens;
> D. The Toxin Extractor should not decrease immunity vs blood
> toxins; and
> E. The Tracheal Filter should not decrease immunity vs inhaled
> toxins.

I'd previously asked Rob Boyle about some of those items (Pathogenic
Defense, Nephretic Screen, Toxing Extractor) and he said that he was gonna
put that in the erratta. I'd have to check the erratta- is none of them
mentioned?
You are exactly right- if an item of bioware gives a bonus to something that
bioware in general gives a penalty to, the items BI should be counted as
zero for that purpose. Of course, having all of the above items would be
kinda silly, as the benefit some provide would often be cancelled by the
penalties the others still leave. Oh well, there's always the cyber-type
toxin filters.

>Third, why should Kevlar Bone Lacing, which is described as being
>_around_ bones and joints (and, for realism's sake, should probably
>also be considered to be around various other major organs), be
>incompatible with other forms of bone lacing? I suggest that it
>wouldn't be.

The description really doesn't get much into the sort of logical detail that
really lets you make an informed conclusion there. Maybe other bone lacing
also goes in the same places. Hell, why does bioware provide impact
protection at all in some cases? Say some guy comes after you with a knife-
how does your bones being tough stop you from getting cut?
The obvious reason Kevlar and all other forms of bone lacing can't be
combined is game balance...

>Fourth, I can see why Flex Hands would be incompatible with the
>damage-increasing effects of Bone Lacing (except for Kick Attacks
>using the Martial Arts rules). Why would it be incompatible with the
>armor & Body-boosting effects?

Good question. I'd consider them to be about the same as having to cyber
fore-arms, or maybe just hands, as far as adjustments to bone lacing bonuses
go.

>Fifth, I can see limiting the level of Encephalons for normal
>characters to 2; as M&M (pg 20) states, higher-level Encephalons
>exceed the ability of the brain to manipulate data. But what about
>characters with an increased ability to handle such, i.e., those with
>Intelligence above 6 already due to bioware, natural ability, or other
>causes?

More intellegent characters (ones with a higher int rating) are capable of
more adavanced and faster thinking, but I doubt thier brains nuerological
structure is so much different that hooking up vast new acres of nueral net
space would leve them sane. Maybe a more advanced brain (like maybe a
dragons) could maybe handle a more sophisticated encephalon, but I think it
would be damn foolish to try. Similarly, many non-sentient animals have INT
ratings of 3 or more, but even a rating 1 enecephalon would probably fry
thier little brains...

>Sixth, the Trauma Damper implant is a nice one (especially for mages -
>remind me to post my "enhanced mage" archetype/character at some
>point). However, it's got to include somewhat more than the
>description says - just damping pain et al isn't going to affect
>physical injury. Various immunomodulators (mainly for the inflammatory
>response) plus (if blood pressure is too low) sympathetic nervous
>system effects on peripheral blood flow (to decrease bleeding) should
>be added; there are sufficient side effects from these (similar to why
>one feels woozy when ill, for instance) to explain the conversion to
>Stun damage. I don't think this will have much game effect, however,
>although GMs may wish to describe people with Trauma Dampers who've
>taken physical damage that's converted into Stun as "woozy and pale"
>(the pale being from the peripheral blood flow effects).

Yeah, that's how I'd always seen it. No big deal I'm not sure, but maybe
opiates help stimulate some of those processes?

>Seventh, what is the healing rate for someone with Light Physical
>injuries and Nanosymbiotes? One can't decrease the healing rate to the
>level below Light... Halving the base time to 12 hours would make
>sense.

Good question. I'm not sure it is reduced any. Light wounds heal pretty
fast, and would perhaps be to superficial for the nanites to assist with.

>Eighth, it is not specified in M&M whether Symbiotes (or, for that
>matter, Nanosymbiotes, although the system for them _really_ doesn't
>make sense for it) help in healing Stun damage (as opposed to just
>Physical damage). In Shadowtech, Symbiotes are stated to help in
>healing "physical and mental" damage. I wouldn't allow them to
>help with Stun damage, personally.

I believe both sytems DO assist with stun damage. To improve tissue healing
(healing physical damage), you would probably have to improve nutrient
transport, which would also aid in fatigue and shock recovery (healing stun
damage). Anything that reduced swelling would certainly help in healing
(and preventing) a Concussion. Etc. Theres enough overlap that any system
that aids ALL sorts of healing of physicla damage, is likely to aid most
sorts of healing of stun damage, IMO.

> Yours,
>
> -Allen

-Mongoose
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Mon May 21 22:05:01 2001
On May 21, 6:16am, dghost@****.com wrote:
> On Mon, 21 May 2001 02:36:02 -0400 "Allen Smith"
> <easmith@********.rutgers.edu> writes:
> <SNIP>
> > B. The Awakened suffer Essence losses, equal to the added
> > Bio Index, if they receive non-Cultured
> > neuralware. (This is similar to the original Shadowtech
> > rule on the subject.)
>
> This places the mages in double jeopardy in addition to favoring
> non-mages like the shadowtech rules. The Essence loss lowers the mage's
> Essence Index, which lowers the point at which the mage suffers additonal
> penalties for bioware. Since you're still charging the bio index, it's
> about as bad as charging the mage twice. Why not say that the mages have
> sensitive system flaw for free? It's worse than what you were describing,
> but is more line with the line of though, IMO.

I actually don't consider doing the extra charging at all to be that
good of an idea, really - it was more suggestions for GMs who thought
it would be potentially abusive (a lot of the biological neuralware is
very useful for the Awakened, after all...). I should probably make a
note of that.

> <SNIP>
> > Conversely, Pathogenic Defense almost certainly has to be Cultured
> > - otherwise, you've got something that doesn't look quite right
> > sitting directly inside where the immune system is most active.

There's also the reason on Pathogenic Defense that it really probably
works by producing more-effective immune system cells - simply pumping
out more of the existing ones will make you _feel_ ill from all the
chemicals _they'll_ pump out, and may well cause autoimmune disease.

> Not necessarily, as I understand bioware, non-cultured bioware is
> immune system neutral, and cultured is actively immune system
> friendly. The question is: Is there is a difference between the two?
> As I understand the workings of the immune system, there isn't. Some
> who has Type B blood can receive types B and O blood, because of the
> lack of an A. When the immune system sees something "extra",
> something that doesn't belong, it attacks. If something is missing
> something, but doesn't have something extra, the immune system
> doesn't "see" it. If I'm wrong, I'm sure some medical type person
> will rise up and smack me or somethig ... ;)

Immunology tends to change very, very rapidly, as I learned while
watching my father going through an Allergy/Immunology
fellowship.... so any answer given may well be incorrect for that
reason alone. Removing things that the immune system reacts to is
indeed a way to reduce transplantation difficulties. Whether this will
be fully sufficient is not yet known, IIRC; it's quite possible that
there's also a recognition of self, as opposed to just a recognition
of not-non-self.

> <SNIP>
> > Similarly, if Symbiotes are
> > capable of helping against cancer (M&M pg 59; Nanosymbiotes should
> > probably give the same benefit, BTW), they will need to be Cultured
> > to be able to recognize properly behaving cells.
>
> Hmm ... this makes some sense ... unless the symbiotes had some way
> of adapting to the body ... perhaps a tailored (tailored to the
> symbiotes, not the recipient) virus?

That's about how I'd describe a Cultured version of Symbiotes,
actually, since the normal Culturing rules (tailored for the recipient
because of being cloned from the recipient) don't exactly apply for
micro-organisms....

> > Second, one problem with the original M&M rules that has been
> > spotted and put in the errata is that Symbiotes should not be
> > decreasing healing rates. However, they aren't the only bioware
> > which shouldn't have as much effect on healing and immunity:
> > A. The Digestive Expansion should not decrease immunity vs
> > ingested toxins;
> <SNIP>
>
> Well, It could change the definition of toxins rather than being exempt
> to that rule... ;)

Hmm, yes, but it does directly specify that the Power of ingested
toxins gets cut in half!

> > Third, why should Kevlar Bone Lacing, which is described as being
> > _around_ bones and joints (and, for realism's sake, should probably
> > also be considered to be around various other major organs), be
> > incompatible with other forms of bone lacing? I suggest that it
> > wouldn't be.
>
> I would say that it's not compatable due to diminishing returns.
> Therefore, you can implant two forms of bone lacing but you only recieve
> the highest bonus in each area of increase. Of course you get all the
> essence loss ... ;)

I can see this argument to some degree... but if you reinforce bones
_plus_ put kevlar around major organs and bones, why _shouldn't_ you
get a bonus to Body (at least for wounds and (because of decreased
broken bones and punctured organs) wound healing) that's greater than
for doing either alone? Possibly say that there's a diminishing return
on the Body part that the second +1 is only done for wounds and wound
healing?

> > Fourth, I can see why Flex Hands would be incompatible with the
> > damage-increasing effects of Bone Lacing (except for Kick Attacks
> > using the Martial Arts rules). Why would it be incompatible with
> > the armor & Body-boosting effects?
>
> As far as I know, it's not.

M&M pg 28-29: "Flex hands are not compatible with bone lacing".

> IIRC, you can get two full cyberlimb
> replacements without losing the effects of bone lacing ...

Good point.

> > Fifth, I can see limiting the level of Encephalons for normal
> > characters to 2; as M&M (pg 20) states, higher-level Encephalons
> > exceed the ability of the brain to manipulate data. But what about
> > characters with an increased ability to handle such, i.e., those
> > with Intelligence above 6 already due to bioware, natural ability, or
> > other causes?
>
> I take that as meaning a level 3 is beyond the limits of the
> metahuman brain at its ultimate ability to manipulate data ... which
> may be a little off since someone with an Intelligence of 1 can get
> an Encephalon. That may, however, indicate that the ability to
> manipulate data is not related to Intelligence ...

I'm not sure exactly how else I'd define Intelligence!

> <SNIP>
> > Eighth, it is not specified in M&M whether Symbiotes (or, for that
> > matter, Nanosymbiotes, although the system for them _really_
> > doesn't make sense for it) help in healing Stun damage (as opposed
> > to just Physical damage). In Shadowtech, Symbiotes are stated to
> > help in healing "physical and mental" damage. I wouldn't allow
> > them to help with Stun damage, personally.
>
> Since unarmed damage causes stun damage, IMO, it makes sense that
> although Stun is not Physical Damage, it still has physical components
> and thus can be healed by Nano/Symbiotes.

Any ideas from anyone on how to treat Nanosymbiote healing of Stun,
then? Do as per Level 3 Symbiotes, perhaps (1 Bio Index being
equivalent to .7 Essence for a Nanoware Hive and .3 for Nanite
Facilitator)?

> A more, IMO, sensible ruling is
> that there are types of Stun damage that are beyond their ability to heal
> ...

Spellcasting and Conjuring Drain leading among these? Complicated to
keep track of both types of Stun damage, but possible...

One thing that the above brings up, BTW, that I had not previously
contemplated. Blood filters are specified to reduce the Essence cost
of Nanite Filtration since there's less to install. How about bioware
like the Nephritic Screen, especially if installed at the same time or
later? Subtract another .05 for it?

Yours,

-Allen

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Mon May 21 22:50:01 2001
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In a message dated 5/21/01 10:11:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
easmith@********.rutgers.edu writes:


> I take that as meaning a level 3 is beyond the limits of the
> metahuman brain at its ultimate ability to manipulate data ... which
> may be a little off since someone with an Intelligence of 1 can get
> an Encephalon. That may, however, indicate that the ability to
> manipulate data is not related to Intelligence ...

I'm not sure exactly how else I'd define Intelligence!

I'm not sure that's what's meant. (This is an utter layman's view, but hey)
In this case, it isn't so much that the brain cannot manipulate the
data...there's too MUCH data, and it doesn't stop. Same reason Echo Mirage
had so many psych cases...pure and simple overload. Your brain will
eventually devote so much energy to processing data that it forgets to
trigger automatic responses like, oh, breathing.

Am I making sense?

--part1_48.1624abf3.283b2ef9_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica>In a message dated 5/21/01 10:11:39 PM
Eastern Daylight Time,
<BR>easmith@********.rutgers.edu writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>&gt; I take that as meaning a level 3 is beyond the limits of the
<BR>&gt; metahuman brain at its ultimate ability to manipulate data ... which
<BR>&gt; may be a little off since someone with an Intelligence of 1 can get
<BR>&gt; an Encephalon. That may, however, indicate that the ability to
<BR>&gt; manipulate data is not related to Intelligence ...
<BR>
<BR>I'm not sure exactly how else I'd define Intelligence!<FONT SIZE=3>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>I'm not sure that's what's meant. (This is an utter layman's view, but hey)
<BR>In this case, it isn't so much that the brain cannot manipulate the
<BR>data...there's too MUCH data, and it doesn't stop. Same reason Echo Mirage
<BR>had so many psych cases...pure and simple overload. Your brain will
<BR>eventually devote so much energy to processing data that it forgets to
<BR>trigger automatic responses like, oh, breathing.
<BR>
<BR>Am I making sense?</FONT></HTML>

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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gabe Chomic)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Mon May 21 23:35:01 2001
DemonPenta@***.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/21/01 10:11:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> easmith@********.rutgers.edu writes:
>
> > I take that as meaning a level 3 is beyond the limits of the
> > metahuman brain at its ultimate ability to manipulate data ... which
>
> > may be a little off since someone with an Intelligence of 1 can get
> > an Encephalon. That may, however, indicate that the ability to
> > manipulate data is not related to Intelligence ...
>
> I'm not sure exactly how else I'd define Intelligence!
>
> I'm not sure that's what's meant. (This is an utter layman's view, but
> hey)
> In this case, it isn't so much that the brain cannot manipulate the
> data...there's too MUCH data, and it doesn't stop. Same reason Echo
> Mirage
> had so many psych cases...pure and simple overload. Your brain will
> eventually devote so much energy to processing data that it forgets to
>
> trigger automatic responses like, oh, breathing.
>
> Am I making sense?

Not exactly, no. Different areas of the brain handle different tasks,
and it's highly unlikely that a case of information overload would make
someone forget to breathe, as the areas are completely unrelated.

However, a common attribute associated with Intelligence in Shadowrun is
Perception, as we know. Enhance perception to a level greater than the
brain can handle... and you'll probably get autism. Autists don't make
good shadowrunners.

As for low Intelligence characters with Encephalons, I feel Intelligence
is the ability to use one's brain, not the ability of one's brain. This
goes along with the concept of a task pool as well. Data processing in
a separate optical computer can be fed back to the brain, which despite
being underutilized, still has an immense amount of capacity. For this
reason a low Intelligence character should be able to receive the same
benefits as a more intelligent character. His brain has the power, and
the Encephalon just provides a tap. But there are limits to what a
brain, which operates on electricity, can process when compared to an
optical computer system. The encephalon isn't nearly as flexible as the
millions of neural pathways, but the pathways are slower.

Of course, when low Intelligence is the result of brain damage and not
of underutilization, then it's a different story, and subject to the
discretion of the GM.

And if you think I messed up in there somewhere, you could be right...
I'm a psych minor, but I concentrate in social psych, not neuropsych.

Gabe
--
"Many go fishing all their lives without
knowing that it is not fish that they are
after."
-Thoreau
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Mon May 21 23:35:04 2001
On May 21, 9:35pm, Sebastian Wiers wrote:
> >While the current listings for neural bioware
> >can indeed be considered to be Cultured, it should be perfectly
> >possible to get non-Cultured versions (reversing the normal
> >modifiers.)
>
> If immunology were no big concern,

It's still _somewhat_ of a concern, however.

> why would non-cultured versions have a
> higher BI cost / lower nuyen cost? Perhaps nueral bioware is considered
> clonal because its BI can't be reduced by making it clonal.

Possible... it would simplify things!

> >I would suggest, however, as a limit on this, that the
> >current limits regarding availability of Cultured bioware implantation
> >still be followed for neural bioware, even if it's normal-grade.
> >Implanting things into the brain is still going to be tricky.
>
> Nueral Bioware is awfully cheap for clonal bioware, so I think thats
> basically why its all automatically considered cultured bioware.

That is indeed an argument, especially with the Cultured multiplier
being *4!

> It also stops you from being able to yank the nueral bioware from
> some poor slob and use it in somebody else.

Yanking out anything involving that much interlacing with existing
neural tissue is in and of itself rather unrealistic! There are a lot
of other cases where I wouldn't allow used bioware for similar
reasons - I could probably put together a list if there's interest,
although some portions will depend on whether you assume a wholescale
organ replacement (possible but it should greatly up the surgery costs
& damage).

> ANY sort of bioware presumes immunoligicaly sophisticated matching that is
> far beyond what we have today, I think. Solving the probelms of graft vs
> host disease (which I think is partly what you are getting at above) isn't
> unreasonable within the setting. Today, research on that sort of thing is
> primative, but not hopeless.

If it was solved that well, there wouldn't be a Cultured vs Basic
distinction, though.

> >Second, one problem with the original M&M rules that has been spotted
> >and put in the errata is that Symbiotes should not be decreasing
> >healing rates. However, they aren't the only bioware which shouldn't
> >have as much effect on healing and immunity:
> > A. The Digestive Expansion should not decrease immunity vs
> > ingested toxins;
> > B. The Nephritic Screen should not decrease immunity vs blood
> > toxins and pathogens;
> > C. The Pathogenic Defense should not decrease immunity vs
> > pathogens;
> > D. The Toxin Extractor should not decrease immunity vs blood
> > toxins; and
> > E. The Tracheal Filter should not decrease immunity vs inhaled
> > toxins.
>
> I'd previously asked Rob Boyle about some of those items (Pathogenic
> Defense, Nephretic Screen, Toxing Extractor) and he said that he was gonna
> put that in the erratta. I'd have to check the erratta- is none of them
> mentioned?

I am afraid that only Symbiotes are currently mentioned (at least in
the Errata on dumpshock, and I can't find the ones on www.fasa.com; at
least by Altavista translation, I can't see where fanpro's published
any errata for M&M). I certainly understand confusion due to the
closing/move et al, however...

> You are exactly right- if an item of bioware gives a bonus to something that
> bioware in general gives a penalty to, the items BI should be counted as
> zero for that purpose.

Quite.

> Of course, having all of the above items would be
> kinda silly, as the benefit some provide would often be cancelled by the
> penalties the others still leave.

Sigh... yes.

> Oh well, there's always the cyber-type
> toxin filters.

Yes. (Those _do_ reduce the Power of diseases of the appropriate type,
right? The description (SR3 pg 300-301) is inconsistent on that...)

> >Third, why should Kevlar Bone Lacing, which is described as being
> >_around_ bones and joints (and, for realism's sake, should probably
> >also be considered to be around various other major organs), be
> >incompatible with other forms of bone lacing? I suggest that it
> >wouldn't be.
>
> The description really doesn't get much into the sort of logical detail that
> really lets you make an informed conclusion there. Maybe other bone lacing
> also goes in the same places. Hell, why does bioware provide impact
> protection at all in some cases? Say some guy comes after you with a knife-
> how does your bones being tough stop you from getting cut?

Heh. Yes.

> The obvious reason Kevlar and all other forms of bone lacing can't be
> combined is game balance...

I'm not sure how much game balance problems there would be in
combining them, given that about the same effect can be gotten with
dermal sheathing plus bone lacing and/or (nano)symbiotes without
significantly more essence or nuyen cost, IIRC.

> >Fifth, I can see limiting the level of Encephalons for normal
> >characters to 2; as M&M (pg 20) states, higher-level Encephalons
> >exceed the ability of the brain to manipulate data. But what about
> >characters with an increased ability to handle such, i.e., those with
> >Intelligence above 6 already due to bioware, natural ability, or other
> >causes?
>
> More intellegent characters (ones with a higher int rating) are capable of
> more adavanced and faster thinking, but I doubt thier brains nuerological
> structure is so much different that hooking up vast new acres of nueral net
> space would leve them sane. Maybe a more advanced brain (like maybe a
> dragons) could maybe handle a more sophisticated encephalon, but I think it
> would be damn foolish to try.

I can see this argument.

> Similarly, many non-sentient animals have INT
> ratings of 3 or more, but even a rating 1 enecephalon would probably fry
> thier little brains...

Yeah - plus the Int of non-sentients is for perception & similar
purposes only anyway, IIRC.

> >Sixth, the Trauma Damper implant is a nice one (especially for mages -
> >remind me to post my "enhanced mage" archetype/character at some
> >point). However, it's got to include somewhat more than the
> >description says - just damping pain et al isn't going to affect
> >physical injury. Various immunomodulators (mainly for the inflammatory
> >response) plus (if blood pressure is too low) sympathetic nervous
> >system effects on peripheral blood flow (to decrease bleeding) should
> >be added; there are sufficient side effects from these (similar to why
> >one feels woozy when ill, for instance) to explain the conversion to
> >Stun damage. I don't think this will have much game effect, however,
> >although GMs may wish to describe people with Trauma Dampers who've
> >taken physical damage that's converted into Stun as "woozy and pale"
> >(the pale being from the peripheral blood flow effects).
>
> Yeah, that's how I'd always seen it. No big deal I'm not sure, but maybe
> opiates help stimulate some of those processes?

Hmm... opiates do have some (rather complex) immunomodulatory
effects... possible.

> >Seventh, what is the healing rate for someone with Light Physical
> >injuries and Nanosymbiotes? One can't decrease the healing rate to the
> >level below Light... Halving the base time to 12 hours would make
> >sense.
>
> Good question. I'm not sure it is reduced any. Light wounds heal pretty
> fast, and would perhaps be to superficial for the nanites to assist with.

I can see both arguments... although the speed of healing perhaps
argues more for nanites being able to be involved as opposed to
Symbiotes working for Light wounds, and since they do work for them...

> >Eighth, it is not specified in M&M whether Symbiotes (or, for that
> >matter, Nanosymbiotes, although the system for them _really_ doesn't
> >make sense for it) help in healing Stun damage (as opposed to just
> >Physical damage). In Shadowtech, Symbiotes are stated to help in
> >healing "physical and mental" damage. I wouldn't allow them to
> >help with Stun damage, personally.
>
> I believe both sytems DO assist with stun damage. To improve tissue healing
> (healing physical damage), you would probably have to improve nutrient
> transport, which would also aid in fatigue and shock recovery (healing stun
> damage). Anything that reduced swelling would certainly help in healing
> (and preventing) a Concussion. Etc. Theres enough overlap that any system
> that aids ALL sorts of healing of physicla damage, is likely to aid most
> sorts of healing of stun damage, IMO.

I can see both sides. (I'll make a seperate email regarding Drain
damage...)

Yours,

-Allen

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Mon May 21 23:40:04 2001
On May 21, 11:10pm, DemonPenta@***.com wrote:
>
> [ Attachment (multipart/alternative): 2331 bytes ]

Umm... could you send this in plain text?

Thanks,

-Allen

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Tue May 22 00:40:01 2001
Allen Smith writes:

> Eighth...

The comments that I would have made on these have already been made. (And
ten times those have been made by others who have much greater knowledge in
the area than myself.) However, I'd be very happy if, after this discussion
has completed, you'd write up a 'sensible, real world errata' for M&M based
upon the things discussed.

Thanks!

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Tue May 22 00:55:03 2001
Allen Smith writes:

>>> Third, why should Kevlar Bone Lacing, which is described as being
>>>_around_ bones and joints (and, for realism's sake, should probably also
>>> be considered to be around various other major organs), be incompatible
>>> with other forms of bone lacing? I suggest that it wouldn't be.
>>
>> I would say that it's not compatable due to diminishing returns.
>> Therefore, you can implant two forms of bone lacing but you only recieve
>> the highest bonus in each area of increase. Of course you get all the
>> essence loss ... ;)
>
> I can see this argument to some degree... but if you reinforce bones
> _plus_ put kevlar around major organs and bones, why _shouldn't_ you get a
> bonus to Body (at least for wounds and (because of decreased broken bones
> and punctured organs) wound healing) that's greater than for doing either
> alone? Possibly say that there's a diminishing return on the Body part that
> the second +1 is only done for wounds and wound healing?

Huhn? Firsty, bone lacing is _bone_ lacing, not organ lacing. That's
different. (OTOH, if you want to have bone lacing include organ lacing in
your game, then your logic is probably quite correct.) Also, healing uses
only unaugmented Body (p 134 M&M), not Body as enhanced by cyber, bio, etc.
The "decreased broken bones" and such that you discuss are already
represented by the lesser amount of damage a character with such 'ware takes
upon being injured.

I don't really see a problem with only being able to have one type of bone
lacing. The diminishing returns argument is fairly sound here, I'd think.

> M&M pg 28-29: "Flex hands are not compatible with bone lacing".

There should probably be a clarification for what that really means. I'd
interpret it as meaning that flex hands cannot be bone laced. Thus, for
instance, you'd have to follow the rules for "Cyberware Compatability" (p 32
M&M), and suffer appropriate reductions to lone lacing bonuses due to flex
hands. Additionally, you would not receive listed unarmed combat damage
bonuses from bone lacing if you had flex hands.

> Any ideas from anyone on how to treat Nanosymbiote healing of Stun, then?
> Do as per Level 3 Symbiotes, perhaps (1 Bio Index being equivalent to .7
> Essence for a Nanoware Hive and .3 for Nanite Facilitator)?

Sounds good.

>> A more, IMO, sensible ruling is that there are types of Stun damage that
>> are beyond their ability to heal...
>
> Spellcasting and Conjuring Drain leading among these? Complicated to
> keep track of both types of Stun damage, but possible...

Drain is often represented as bursting blood vessels, bruising, hemorraging
(sp?), internal bleeding, etc. Such things would be healable in the same
way.

> One thing that the above brings up, BTW, that I had not previously
> contemplated. Blood filters are specified to reduce the Essence cost
> of Nanite Filtration since there's less to install. How about bioware
> like the Nephritic Screen, especially if installed at the same time or
> later? Subtract another .05 for it?

Um, possibly. I would see how cyber mods could easily interact, but perhaps
there would be problems getting bio and cyber mods to interact nicely.
You'd be able to judge better than I... <grin>

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Tue May 22 01:05:01 2001
Allen Smith writes:

> Yanking out anything involving that much interlacing with existing neural
> tissue is in and of itself rather unrealistic! There are a lot of other
> cases where I wouldn't allow used bioware for similar reasons - I could
> probably put together a list if there's interest, although some portions
> will depend on whether you assume a wholescale organ replacement (possible
> but it should greatly up the surgery costs & damage).

Do you have such a list for cyber too? Note to Mongoose: are the proposed
M&M rules for installation (proportion of nanites used, disposable one time
components, recoverable components, etc.) that never made it to the book
available anywhere?

>> Oh well, there's always the cyber-type toxin filters.
>
> Yes. (Those _do_ reduce the Power of diseases of the appropriate type,
> right? The description (SR3 pg 300-301) is inconsistent on that...)

Er, um, I see what you mean. Do _you_ think that they should? ie, is it
believable? What about the other types of filtration systems?

>> Similarly, many non-sentient animals have INT ratings of 3 or more, but
>> even a rating 1 enecephalon would probably fry thier little brains...
>
> Yeah - plus the Int of non-sentients is for perception & similar purposes
> only anyway, IIRC.

Most of them have 2 Int ratings. The first (lower) rating is for solving
puzzles and the like. The second (higher) rating is for perception tests.
The first rating is rarely above 2 or 3, but the second can be 5 or higher.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Tue May 22 01:10:01 2001
On May 22, 12:59am, Damion Milliken wrote:
> Allen Smith writes:
>
> > Eighth...
>
> The comments that I would have made on these have already been made. (And
> ten times those have been made by others who have much greater knowledge in
> the area than myself.) However, I'd be very happy if, after this discussion
> has completed, you'd write up a 'sensible, real world errata' for M&M based
> upon the things discussed.
>
> Thanks!

Umm... blush... thank you! I will try to do so (preferably
incorporating the discussion and thoughts of others - I am eagerly
waiting for the Hans to speak up, for one thing) when possible. I
should really also check in on how the GURPS Transhuman Space
discussion & playtests is going... I fear I am heading toward becoming
that stereotype, the absent-minded professor!

Yours,

-Allen

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Tue May 22 02:05:01 2001
On May 22, 1:15am, Damion Milliken wrote:
> Allen Smith writes:
>
> > Yanking out anything involving that much interlacing with existing neural
> > tissue is in and of itself rather unrealistic! There are a lot of other
> > cases where I wouldn't allow used bioware for similar reasons - I could
> > probably put together a list if there's interest, although some portions
> > will depend on whether you assume a wholescale organ replacement (possible
> > but it should greatly up the surgery costs & damage).
>
> Do you have such a list for cyber too?

Well, actually, I didn't have a list for either... but here's a _very_
rough draft:

Some cyberwear is not, practically speaking, removable and reusable in
other individuals. For instance, it may be scattered so much through
the person's organs that it must have been put there by nanites (e.g.,
bone lacing), over and above the normal cyberwear interfacing nanites.
(e.g., the neural nanites connecting a datajack's circuitry with the
recipient's brain; I am supposing that this sort of thing is
standardized enough to be relatively cheap, even for _very_
complicated interfacing). The following is a rough list of SR3
cyberwear which has this characteristic:
Retinal Modification: Cosmetic Modification
Retinal Modification: Retinal Duplication
Bone Lacing other than Kevlar
Boosted Reflexes (obviously)
Reaction Enhancer
Skillwires
Wired Reflexes
Data Filter
RAS Override
Biomonitor
I am supposing in the above that neural interfacing nanites are
commonly available enough that, even for _very_ complicated tasks like
Chipjacks, Datajacks, and Encephalons, they're relatively
cheap. Cranial Bombs are not listed in the above since they _are_
removable _if_ you know how to deactivate them!

Similarly, bioware is limited in how much it can be transplanted. The
following pieces of bioware, plus _all_ neural bioware, cannot be
removed for reuse in another individual:
Enhanced Articulation
Pathogenic Defense
Platelet Factories
Symbiotes

The following cannot be removed without extensive surgery involving
multiple and/or large organs (Deadly surgical damage to reimplant,
even if implantation would normally not cause this much damage):
Cyberware:
Ingested Toxin Filtration Systems
Bioware:
Digestive Expansion
Extended Volume
Orthoskin
Tailored Pheromones
Chloroplast Skin
Clean Metabolism
Dietware

> Note to Mongoose: are the proposed
> M&M rules for installation (proportion of nanites used, disposable one time
> components, recoverable components, etc.) that never made it to the book
> available anywhere?

I'd be interested in seeing this...

> >> Oh well, there's always the cyber-type toxin filters.
> >
> > Yes. (Those _do_ reduce the Power of diseases of the appropriate type,
> > right? The description (SR3 pg 300-301) is inconsistent on that...)
>
> Er, um, I see what you mean. Do _you_ think that they should? ie, is it
> believable?

I can see arguments either way. As long as the GM is pretty careful
about only applying the blood filters to systemic diseases, I can see
it... if you have, say, an infected wound on your leg, filtering the
bloodstream isn't going to do anything for you - but if the infection
spreads (i.e., you start having systemic symptoms, such as from
endotoxins), that's another matter. Stopping septic shock could be
quite helpful.

> What about the other types of filtration systems?

You're referring to the inhaled and ingested filtration systems?
If the inhaled toxin filter has a sufficiently fine filter on it (and
it's got enough lung power boosting to overcome the air resistance), I
can see it filtering out viruses/bacteria et al. Failures in doing so
reflect defects in the system letting things through. You won't get as
much of a disease through even if they do let in some, so it'll
decrease how much of a head start the germs get, so I can see it
working.

Ingested toxin filters... I am assuming, as per the above ruling of
them out as something transplantable without major surgery, that this
is a nanite-generated (and regenerated) coating on the inside of the
digestive tract. This will indeed block many ingested diseases, about
the only exceptions being ones that mainly have effect by disturbing
the ecological balance in the small intestine (and even that could be
readjusted by the coating given time). In other words, it'll act
fully against anything but Montezuma's Revenge, and even that will get
knocked out (or reduced, if severe) after one or two episodes.

> >> Similarly, many non-sentient animals have INT ratings of 3 or more, but
> >> even a rating 1 enecephalon would probably fry thier little brains...
> >
> > Yeah - plus the Int of non-sentients is for perception & similar purposes
> > only anyway, IIRC.
>
> Most of them have 2 Int ratings. The first (lower) rating is for solving
> puzzles and the like. The second (higher) rating is for perception tests.
> The first rating is rarely above 2 or 3, but the second can be 5 or
> higher.

Right, thanks - I don't have Critters, and it's been a while since I read
SR2.

Yours,

-Allen

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Tue May 22 03:40:01 2001
On May 22, 1:15am, Damion Milliken wrote:
> Allen Smith writes:
>
> >>> Third, why should Kevlar Bone Lacing, which is described as being
> >>>_around_ bones and joints (and, for realism's sake, should probably also
> >>> be considered to be around various other major organs), be incompatible
> >>> with other forms of bone lacing? I suggest that it wouldn't be.
> >>
> >> I would say that it's not compatable due to diminishing returns.
> >> Therefore, you can implant two forms of bone lacing but you only recieve
> >> the highest bonus in each area of increase. Of course you get all the
> >> essence loss ... ;)
> >
> > I can see this argument to some degree... but if you reinforce bones
> > _plus_ put kevlar around major organs and bones, why _shouldn't_ you get a
> > bonus to Body (at least for wounds and (because of decreased broken bones
> > and punctured organs) wound healing) that's greater than for doing either
> > alone? Possibly say that there's a diminishing return on the Body part that
> > the second +1 is only done for wounds and wound healing?
>
> Huhn? Firsty, bone lacing is _bone_ lacing, not organ lacing. That's
> different. (OTOH, if you want to have bone lacing include organ
> lacing in your game, then your logic is probably quite correct.)

The problem is that I can't see putting kevlar around _just_ bones and
joints as really having that much of an impact (no pun intended) on
how much damage gets done to the body from bullets. Kevlar acts to
spread out damage and keep things from penetrating; people with Kevlar
vests will get broken ribs instead of holes through organs. Since my
interests in human physiology aren't in the trauma area (more
aging/longevity, ergogens, cognitive enhancement, etcetera) I may well
be wrong on this, however. I can see the argument that the Kevlar is
preventing bone fragments from getting expelled and going all over the
place if a bone gets hit.

> Also, healing uses
> only unaugmented Body (p 134 M&M), not Body as enhanced by cyber,
> bio, etc.

With the slight problem that healing is the only place that this is
stated. In other words, cyberware-enhanced Body apparently increases
one's resistance to toxins and diseases. Umm... I don't think so.

BTW, Bioware-enhanced Body _does_ work for Healing according to the current
rules - M&M pg 77 states that bioware-enhanced Attributes are treated
as natural and unaugumented. (I do trust that people wouldn't apply
this to Karma for Attribute increasing? It would rather remove a lot
of the purpose for bioware if people did...)

> The "decreased broken bones" and such that you discuss are already
> represented by the lesser amount of damage a character with such 'ware takes
> upon being injured.

I can see this... but given the above argument, I suggest that bone
lacing Body _should_ be counted for purposes of healing Physical
damage, but _not_ for purposes of toxins and diseases.

> I don't really see a problem with only being able to have one type of bone
> lacing. The diminishing returns argument is fairly sound here, I'd think.

Again, I can see either way. Given that you get _4_ points of Body and
2 points of Impact Armor from Dermal Sheathing 3 (costing 2.1
Essence), whereas Kevlar + Ceramic Bone Lacing would give you _2_
points of Body, 1 point of Ballistic Armor, and 2 points of Impact
armor (costing 2.5 Essence), I don't think allowing Kevlar plus other
forms of bone lacing would cause a problem... but this will depend on
the individual GM.

> > M&M pg 28-29: "Flex hands are not compatible with bone lacing".
>
> There should probably be a clarification for what that really means. I'd
> interpret it as meaning that flex hands cannot be bone laced. Thus, for
> instance, you'd have to follow the rules for "Cyberware Compatability" (p
32
> M&M), and suffer appropriate reductions to lone lacing bonuses due to flex
> hands.

These would actually mean that the essence & nuyen cost for bone
lacing would _decrease_, if anything - it's not enough replaced to
reduce the effects.

> Additionally, you would not receive listed unarmed combat damage
> bonuses from bone lacing if you had flex hands.

That's what I was thinking (although allowing someone with the Kick
Attack from the CC Martial Arts rules would make sense, and would be
interesting for cyber-enhanced ninja-types; remind me to write up a
bit on taijitsu sometime...).

> >> A more, IMO, sensible ruling is that there are types of Stun damage that
> >> are beyond their ability to heal...
> >
> > Spellcasting and Conjuring Drain leading among these? Complicated to
> > keep track of both types of Stun damage, but possible...
>
> Drain is often represented as bursting blood vessels, bruising, hemorraging
> (sp?), internal bleeding, etc. Such things would be healable in the same
> way.

Oh? Interesting! Is this how others are representing it? I'd always
thought of Drain Stun damage as fatigue...

> > One thing that the above brings up, BTW, that I had not previously
> > contemplated. Blood filters are specified to reduce the Essence cost
> > of Nanite Filtration since there's less to install. How about bioware
> > like the Nephritic Screen, especially if installed at the same time or
> > later? Subtract another .05 for it?
>
> Um, possibly. I would see how cyber mods could easily interact, but
> perhaps there would be problems getting bio and cyber mods to interact
> nicely.

Well, there are a couple of ways that Blood Filters should be able to
help out with Nanite Filtration that I can think of offhand:
A. pulling out nanites the coatings on which have gotten
damaged, and replacing the coatings (or at least giving
them time enough away from the immune system, bumping
around in the bloodstream, etcetera to regenerate the
coatings themselves, perhaps by grabbing albumin from their
surroundings); and
B. preventing nanites from getting stuck on the walls of some
blood vessels, such as in the kidneys and other filtration
spots.
Hmm... as long as it was installed at the same time (or later,
although you'd then have a .05 Essence Slot left open), I can see the
Nephritic Screen doing the latter. I think I can also see Pathogenic
Defense and Symbiotes similarly helping. The first would work by
lowering immune system reactions to the nanites. The second would work
by taking in damaged-coating nanites and helping to repair them.

> You'd be able to judge better than I... <grin>

Well, my field is genetics (plus some bioinformatics),
remember. However, I do have some medical background (obviously) and,
yes, I can probably judge better than someone with less
background... just like you'd be better at engineering, for
instance (for anyone curious about my Geek Code, see below).

Yours,

-Allen

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--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (aaron chappell)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Tue May 22 06:25:01 2001
The comments that I would have made on these have
already been made.
(And
ten times those have been made by others who have much
greater
knowledge in
the area than myself.) However, I'd be very happy if,
after this
discussion
has completed, you'd write up a 'sensible, real world
errata' for M&M
based
upon the things discussed.

Thanks!

--
Damion Milliken
University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail:
dam01@***.edu.au
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D G+ e++>++++$ h(*) r++ y-(--)
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/reply text

Perhaps if we could persuade allen and hans shin to
work together on such a thing *hopeful grin*

Hmmmmmm Lets see how my new sig works,

Gwylly, Shadowrun Munchkin in Training
Evil GM
"Always case the joint your johnson and the local
patrons because death is such a permanate condition"
-Jade Long Time Shadowrunner

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Hahns Shin)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Tue May 22 14:10:01 2001
> Umm... blush... thank you! I will try to do so (preferably
> incorporating the discussion and thoughts of others - I am eagerly
> waiting for the Hans to speak up, for one thing) when possible. I
Wow. So I am "the" Hahns now? *grin* Makes me sound like the Wizard of
Oz or something. I've been lurking mostly because I'm enjoying my
summer vacation and actually playing Shadowrun (yay!) instead of
reading the list. I'll be better about posting in the future.

The discussion so far has been very interesting. I'll comment on the
Encephalon and Kevlar Bone Lacing (in separate paragraphs, of course).

I think part of the problem with the Encephalon is that in order to
discuss this fine piece of ware, you have to discuss the nature of
Intelligence, both IRL and SR. And Intelligence turns out to be a
nebulous thing... it may be a much simpler thing to explain in
Shadowrun terms than it is to describe it in real life. Biologically,
you can talk about neuronal connections, surface area, brain size,
etc., but as far as sentient intelligence, we really don't know much.
For example, we know that there are discrete areas of the brain that
control speech, language, sight, etc (the phrenologists almost had it
right there), but we don't know why they are consistently in the same
area or the biological/physiological/evolutionary benefit of having
the areas in that location. Converting this to Shadowrun may not be of
much help, either, because Shadowrun also incorporates perception,
common sense, quick reactive thinking, and other aspects into
Intelligence. I'm tempted to place the Encephalon (and its brother,
the Tactical Computer) in the "sci-fi" category of things that we can
visualize but can't explain... sort of like Jules Verne predicting the
submarine, fax machine, and space travel.

Hmm, as far as Encephalons and Knowledge Skills + Knowsofts, I don't
know if using a Knowledge Skill + the corresponding Knowsoft would
actually improve the Knowledge Skill itself. I'd think that the
Knowsoft would be the "crutch" that the character would rely on,
especially with low levels of a Knowledge Skill. With a low Knowledge
skill, the character would have a hard time reconciling the new
information into his/her own "world view" and limited knowledge, or
would likely spit out the answer to a problem verbatim from the
textbook (like many take-home exams I've graded). The high level
Knowledge Skill character wouldn't need to use the Knowsoft, because
they probably wrote the stuff that's on the chip, or studied under the
person that wrote it. The high Knowledge skill character would either
already know the answer or know where to look it up, and thus would be
able to use normal references rather than rely on a chip. This doesn't
even take into account that Knowsofts, just like textbooks, tend to be
personally written and may contain conflicting or even outright wrong
information. Now before I completely debunk the idea of complementary
Knowsofts (I'm not trying to, I'm just thinking outloud), I can see a
MAJOR benefit in using complementary Knowsofts (sort of an "instant"
cross-training in different fields) to accomplish tasks (using a 17th
century Art skillsoft to help decipher the meaning of a certain
iconography using the Matrix Iconography skill, as an example), or
using the corresponding Background Knowledge skill to complement
theoretical tasks with the corresponding Active Skill (Experience +
Book learning). But in the case of the Knowsoft + Knowledge skill,
although I support the argument that combining the two should add a
bonus, I can also see the opposite view, where redundant or even
conflicting information would force the character to choose between
the Knowsoft and his own Knowledge (which would be pseudovanilla,
except that according to vanilla rules, skillsofts override normal
skills).

For Kevlar Bone Lacing, perhaps it is made of a non-Kevlar or improved
Kevlar material that increases resistance against Ballistic damage,
and they just use Kevlar (TM) as the household name to market it (Our
Kevlar Bone Lacing will make you bullet-proof!). Or another solution
is that it only provides one point of Ballistic armor because, at
most, only the head and the ribcage gains the anti-ballistic benefit
of it (compare this to a helmet that provides 1 point of ballistic
armor). Actually, this makes more sense to me now... the head laced w/
Kevlar gives the 1 point of ballistic, and the entire lacing system
adds the +1 Body.

*sees post getting longer, goes back to lurking*

Hahns Shin, MS II
Budding cybersurgeon
...wants an Encephalon...
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Tue May 22 19:35:01 2001
On May 22, 2:25pm, Hahns Shin wrote:
> > Umm... blush... thank you! I will try to do so (preferably
> > incorporating the discussion and thoughts of others - I am eagerly
> > waiting for the Hans to speak up, for one thing) when possible. I
> Wow. So I am "the" Hahns now? *grin* Makes me sound like the Wizard of
> Oz or something.

I confess that the above was due to my having been typing "the
physician-in-training" and suddenly (mis)remembering (sorry!) your
name!

> I've been lurking mostly because I'm enjoying my
> summer vacation

Med students get summer vacations! Lucky sobs... all that happens with
grad students like me is that I'm not TAing a course; I'd say that
cuts my workweek down from 70 hours to, say, 60. Heh.

> and actually playing Shadowrun (yay!) instead of
> reading the list.

:-}

> I'll be better about posting in the future.

Understood, believe me...

> The discussion so far has been very interesting. I'll comment on the
> Encephalon and Kevlar Bone Lacing (in separate paragraphs, of course).
>
> I think part of the problem with the Encephalon is that in order to
> discuss this fine piece of ware, you have to discuss the nature of
> Intelligence, both IRL and SR. And Intelligence turns out to be a
> nebulous thing... it may be a much simpler thing to explain in
> Shadowrun terms than it is to describe it in real life. Biologically,
> you can talk about neuronal connections, surface area, brain size,
> etc., but as far as sentient intelligence, we really don't know much.
> For example, we know that there are discrete areas of the brain that
> control speech, language, sight, etc (the phrenologists almost had it
> right there), but we don't know why they are consistently in the same
> area or the biological/physiological/evolutionary benefit of having
> the areas in that location. Converting this to Shadowrun may not be of
> much help, either, because Shadowrun also incorporates perception,
> common sense, quick reactive thinking, and other aspects into
> Intelligence.

Actually, if you go along with Spearman's g as being intelligence IRL,
Shadowrun in many respects does follow along with it. For instance,
it's perfectly realistic for Combat Pool to involve Intelligence - IQ
in real life is correlated with reaction speed. The same is true of
perception. Common sense and memory, on the other hand, are not as
correlated (as I know full well personally!), and ego strength
(willpower, to some degree) _is_ correlated (albeit not to the degree
of GURPS Will = IQ (up to 14)).

> I'm tempted to place the Encephalon (and its brother,
> the Tactical Computer)

The Tactical Computer is probably best regarded as a specialized AI
(which the description of it as an expert system does allow for). The
more generalized nature of the Encephalon is what tends to cause
problems when analyzing it.

> in the "sci-fi" category of things that we can
> visualize but can't explain... sort of like Jules Verne predicting the
> submarine, fax machine, and space travel.

Possible... although a combination of neural-net expansion with
substitution in areas that are well-understood and simulatable by a
computer (e.g., assisting in visualization by holding an imagined
image in the Encephalon's memory) may do as an explanation.

> Hmm, as far as Encephalons and Knowledge Skills + Knowsofts, I don't
> know if using a Knowledge Skill + the corresponding Knowsoft would
> actually improve the Knowledge Skill itself. I'd think that the
> Knowsoft would be the "crutch" that the character would rely on,
> especially with low levels of a Knowledge Skill. With a low Knowledge
> skill, the character would have a hard time reconciling the new
> information into his/her own "world view" and limited knowledge, or
> would likely spit out the answer to a problem verbatim from the
> textbook (like many take-home exams I've graded). The high level
> Knowledge Skill character wouldn't need to use the Knowsoft, because
> they probably wrote the stuff that's on the chip, or studied under the
> person that wrote it.

They may well already know material that's in a particular specialty
(by which I'm meaning a more-concentrated area than the Shadowrun
Specializations in many cases), but will they know detailed info in
other areas within a given skill?

> The high Knowledge skill character would either already know the
> answer or know where to look it up, and thus would be able to use
> normal references rather than rely on a chip.

However, will they _have_ said references with them? And even if they
do (e.g., on a Datasoft), how long would it take to look it up? I
envision the Encephalon working together with the chip to help suggest
useful bits of information that are on the chip - multi-tasking this
and possibly even doing so before the character thinks to review the
on-chip info.

> This doesn't even take into account that Knowsofts, just like
> textbooks, tend to be personally written and may contain conflicting
> or even outright wrong information.

Yes. That's another reason that I wouldn't let things work the other
way around (native skill as complementary to the Knowsoft). If your
native skill is too low, you'll have trouble distinguishing what's
wrong with the Knowsoft.

> Now before I completely debunk the idea of complementary
> Knowsofts (I'm not trying to, I'm just thinking outloud),

Understood.

> I can see a MAJOR benefit in using complementary Knowsofts (sort of
> an "instant" cross-training in different fields) to accomplish tasks
> (using a 17th century Art skillsoft to help decipher the meaning of
> a certain iconography using the Matrix Iconography skill, as an
> example),

I believe the current rules would actually allow this, but it's
definitely a good idea.

> or using the corresponding Background Knowledge skill to complement
> theoretical tasks with the corresponding Active Skill (Experience +
> Book learning).

Although the current rules regarding Background Knowledge skills
unfortunately don't allow this... possibly because of the default to
Active-3.

> But in the case of the Knowsoft + Knowledge skill,
> although I support the argument that combining the two should add a
> bonus, I can also see the opposite view, where redundant or even
> conflicting information would force the character to choose between
> the Knowsoft and his own Knowledge (which would be pseudovanilla,
> except that according to vanilla rules, skillsofts override normal
> skills).

I can see arguments both ways. I've had some thoughts as to requiring
DIMAP on the Knowsoft to allow for this (DIMAP Knowsofts are obviously
more flexible and accomodating to the character's abilities than
normal chips), but the rules on this can get rather hairy.

> For Kevlar Bone Lacing, perhaps it is made of a non-Kevlar or improved
> Kevlar material that increases resistance against Ballistic damage,
> and they just use Kevlar (TM) as the household name to market it (Our
> Kevlar Bone Lacing will make you bullet-proof!).

Agreed - it's almost certainly not Kevlar, since we've got better
stuff out there _now_.

> Or another solution is that it only provides one point of Ballistic
> armor because, at most, only the head and the ribcage gains the
> anti-ballistic benefit of it (compare this to a helmet that provides
> 1 point of ballistic armor). Actually, this makes more sense to me
> now... the head laced w/Kevlar gives the 1 point of ballistic, and
> the entire lacing system adds the +1 Body.

Hmm... I can see this, especially if you assume that the lacing goes
between the ribs and from the ribs to the spine, pelvis,
etcetera. That's still mainly outside the bones, though, so I'd still
suggest that combining with other forms is possible. However, the
"diminishing returns" argument does make sense in this case; you
probably shouldn't get more than +1 Body even if you used two
different Bone Lacing systems. The armor would be additive, however.

> Hahns Shin, MS II
> Budding cybersurgeon

I suppose I could call myself a "budding bioware researcher"...

> ...wants an Encephalon...

Strongly agreed! Plus a Cerebral Booster and Mnemonic Enhancer!
According to recent research, the Cerebral Booster may not be that far
off... :-}

Yours,

-Allen

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Tue May 22 22:25:01 2001
>> Yanking out anything involving that much interlacing with existing neural
>> tissue is in and of itself rather unrealistic! There are a lot of other
>> cases where I wouldn't allow used bioware for similar reasons - I could
>> probably put together a list if there's interest, although some portions
>> will depend on whether you assume a wholescale organ replacement
(possible
>> but it should greatly up the surgery costs & damage).
>
>Do you have such a list for cyber too? Note to Mongoose: are the proposed
>M&M rules for installation (proportion of nanites used, disposable one time
>components, recoverable components, etc.) that never made it to the book
>available anywhere?

I'm waiting to see if Rob wants to use them in SOTA. Although that doesn't
in itself preclude sharing them publically, it seems best not to- for all I
know, some were cut because they conflict w/ how cyber and bio 'works".
Also, the basic surgery test rules were changed enough from my manuscript
that the surgical options not used would require hefty re-writing. I did
re-write some of them, but others were pointless / unconvertable.
None of them is really so earth-shaking that GM's can't work something
similar up on thier own. If you want to save money on cyber, or get other
special effects, and the GM is cool with it, I'm sure he can screw^h^h^h^h
work with you...

>>> Oh well, there's always the cyber-type toxin filters.
>>
>> Yes. (Those _do_ reduce the Power of diseases of the appropriate type,
>> right? The description (SR3 pg 300-301) is inconsistent on that...)

That's what it says. I don't see the inconsistancy- the ONLY listed game
effect is "Filtration sytems reduce the Power of any toxin or gas [that they
are appropriate for] by the systems rating". In Sr2, they (only) gave extra
dice, iirc, but reducing the power is much more effective, IMO. To bad they
still cost so much essence and cash- realistic, maybe, but it means they
often get bypassed for cheaper, more "pro-active" cyber bits.
This does bring up a question- if a toxin or diseases power is reduced to 0,
can it be ignored completely? If so, combining moderately rated filters and
a chem-suit would be very nice. I know that most atacks still require you
to reduce against 2 if the power is reduced to 0, but chemicals and toxins
seem different- the filters and suit actually reduce your exposure, so if
the power is zero, there essentially is no attack, because you aren't being
exposed to any signifigant amount of the substance!

-Mongoose
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Tue May 22 22:55:01 2001
On May 22, 10:36pm, Sebastian Wiers wrote:
> >>> Oh well, there's always the cyber-type toxin filters.
> >>
> >> Yes. (Those _do_ reduce the Power of diseases of the appropriate type,
> >> right? The description (SR3 pg 300-301) is inconsistent on that...)
>
> That's what it says. I don't see the inconsistancy-

"effective against most injected drugs, slap patches _and many
diseases_", at least for the blood filtration system.

> the ONLY listed game effect is "Filtration sytems reduce the Power
> of any toxin or gas [that they are appropriate for] by the systems
> rating".

But this says they don't work vs diseases, even blood-borne ones that
do damage via toxins!

> In Sr2, they (only) gave extra dice, iirc, but reducing the power is
> much more effective, IMO.

Yes, it is.

> To bad they still cost so much essence and cash- realistic, maybe,
> but it means they often get bypassed for cheaper, more "pro-active"
> cyber bits.

Unfortunate... but I suspect the main people in the SR world likely to
be using such things are:
A. Those working in toxic environments on a frequent basis;
and
B. paranoid corporate and political types afraid of poisoners
(and subtler attacks like hallucinogens).

> This does bring up a question- if a toxin or diseases power is
> reduced to 0, can it be ignored completely? If so, combining
> moderately rated filters and a chem-suit would be very nice. I know
> that most atacks still require you to reduce against 2 if the power
> is reduced to 0, but chemicals and toxins seem different- the
> filters and suit actually reduce your exposure, so if the power is
> zero, there essentially is no attack, because you aren't being
> exposed to any signifigant amount of the substance!

If a _single_ filter reduced the Power of an attack to 0 or less, then
I would agree that the attack should be ignored. However, if it's a
combination of filters, that implies that the first filtration system
let through some of the agent (but not enough to be as toxic as
normal), and the second one probably wouldn't be enough to eliminate
all of the rest - it gets exponentially more difficult to remove the
last little bit...

-Allen


--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Keith Duthie)
Subject: Bioware (and some cyberware) thoughts
Date: Wed May 23 23:30:01 2001
On Tue, 22 May 2001, Hahns Shin wrote:

> Wow. So I am "the" Hahns now? *grin* Makes me sound like the Wizard of
> Oz or something. [snip]

"We're off to see the Hahns
The wonderful Hahns of shadowrn..."

Nah, it just doesn't scan...
--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
be mine, let alone anybody elses...

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