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Message no. 1
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: Bioware, Betaware, and a 3rd edition game of mostly newbies
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:29:37 -0700
Hello;

I'm just starting up a new game (the players should be arriving in 40
minutes... got to finish cleaning. :) ).

I've got mostly newbies to Shadowrun, including myself (more or less, did 3
sessions before spread over 10 years).
However I've got 2 players who are experts at the system, and one who is
very well versed in the novels (despite having never played).
! of the experts and the novel-player have presented me with characters
that make use of items that until Man and Machine is published have no rules
under 3rd edition but exist in second edition items.

One has extensive Bioware and mostly Betaware cyber ware (enough to cut his
essence down to 0.04).
The other just pulled Ambidexterity and some Deltaware cyber eyes.

My gut feeling is to tell them both to stick to only items in the currently
published 3rd edition books.

Outside of the two of them and the other old hat at Shadowrun, nobody in
the group even owns any of the books they are pulling stuff from. Including
myself.
Glancing at the Bioware character's sheet; he looked quite potent. Enough
to single handedly take on the rest of the team.
Is the second edition stuff as unbalancing as it looks to me as a newbie?
How would others handle this situation if they too were new to GMing the
game?

The player is complaining that he will no longer have all his starting cash
if/when Man and Machine is published. My current response is that at that
time he can get what he can or submit a new character, but that I don't want
him using it all at this point.
In large part this is because I don't to make the other players feel a need
to begin buying obsolete books. Nor do I want them unable to be on par with
each other. Nor do I want them to feel overwhelmed with rules they have no
ability to learn.


Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
The Revolution will not be televised; it'll be emailed.
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.
Message no. 2
From: Meowmix chrisjohn@**********.com
Subject: Bioware, Betaware, and a 3rd edition game of mostly newbies
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:37:27 -0400
> One has extensive Bioware and mostly Betaware cyber ware (enough to cut his
> essence down to 0.04).
> The other just pulled Ambidexterity and some Deltaware cyber eyes.

I think this is a mistake. Giving them alphaware is pushing it, but betaware and
deltaware?
This is stuff that's only found in corp-based secret hidden cyberware plants where the
doctors
practically live in a lab. I'd nix that and tell them to take alphaware or nothin.

>
> My gut feeling is to tell them both to stick to only items in the currently
> published 3rd edition books.
>

Good call.

> Outside of the two of them and the other old hat at Shadowrun, nobody in
> the group even owns any of the books they are pulling stuff from. Including
> myself.
> Glancing at the Bioware character's sheet; he looked quite potent. Enough
> to single handedly take on the rest of the team.
> Is the second edition stuff as unbalancing as it looks to me as a newbie?
> How would others handle this situation if they too were new to GMing the
> game?

Well, I've never GM'd a Shadowrun game. But to be honest, if the guy's min-maxing his
character, just tell him that it won't work, and that he has to fit in with the group
being
low level. If you want, you could suggest some replacements, but as with all games, the
more sourcebooks you put out, the more stuff that can be abused. Heck, some new
runners look more like gods under the SR3 rules without all the nice gear of SR2. It's
not an amazingly good idea to mix and match (cept VR2.0 and R2, that is)

>
> The player is complaining that he will no longer have all his starting cash
> if/when Man and Machine is published. My current response is that at that
> time he can get what he can or submit a new character, but that I don't want
> him using it all at this point.

Tell him to quit whining, and that the group will have more fun with adventures that are
a challenge. This guy is starting to sound like a munchkin.

> In large part this is because I don't to make the other players feel a need
> to begin buying obsolete books. Nor do I want them unable to be on par with
> each other. Nor do I want them to feel overwhelmed with rules they have no
> ability to learn.
>

You've got the right idea. If a character is obviously the most dominant one in the group,
then that character should be reworked a little to fit in. It's in the interest of the
group, after
all, and I can say as a player I have more fun when our group is on the same level when it
comes to power, gear, and RPing.


Meowmix
"When life gives you a blend of chicken, liver, and
spices, make meat flavored kitty treats."
Message no. 3
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Bioware, Betaware, and a 3rd edition game of mostly newbies
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:35:15 -0500
> ! of the experts and the novel-player have presented me with characters
> that make use of items that until Man and Machine is published have no
> rules under 3rd edition but exist in second edition items.

You're the GM. Know how to say "No."

> One has extensive Bioware and mostly Betaware cyber ware
> (enough to cut his essence down to 0.04).

And this would be a good time to do it.

My take on this: Bioware, until M&M is out, is a no-no, especially for
starting PCs. And beta-grade cyber is right out (for one thing, it's damned
expensive; I'd love to know how he afforded enough beta-grade ware to take
his Essence down that far). Limit him to alpha-grade at best, and no bio
until the rules come out. You'll thank yourself in the morning, though
he'll bitch and moan a lot.

> The other just pulled Ambidexterity and some Deltaware cyber eyes.

Ambidexterity isn't a biggie, but the delta-grade cyber has to go.

> My gut feeling is to tell them both to stick to only items
> in the currently published 3rd edition books.

Your gut is your friend. Go with your gut.

> Glancing at the Bioware character's sheet; he looked quite
> potent. Enough to single handedly take on the rest of the team.

Reason enough to say "No."

> Is the second edition stuff as unbalancing as it looks to
> me as a newbie?

Since you are a newbie, I'm inclined to say "Yes." You seem to have a good
handle on your own limitation. Trust your instincts; they'll save you more
than they'll hurt you here.

> The player is complaining that he will no longer have all
> his starting cash if/when Man and Machine is published.

He's young. He'll bounce back.

> My current response is that at that
> time he can get what he can or submit a new character, but that I
> don't want him using it all at this point.

Again, good call.

You've made what sound like good decisions. Stick to your guns.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 4
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Bioware, Betaware, and a 3rd edition game of mostly newbies
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:13:10 +0200
According to Arcady, at 18:29 on 30 Jun 99, the word on
the street was...

> ! of the experts and the novel-player have presented me with characters
> that make use of items that until Man and Machine is published have no rules
> under 3rd edition but exist in second edition items.
[snip]
> My gut feeling is to tell them both to stick to only items in the currently
> published 3rd edition books.

That's what I would do, too (if I didn't have all the books, that is :) If
you don't own the book, and the player doesn't either (or doesn't want to
loan it to you so you can read it), ban anything they claim that's from
that book. Allowing only stuff that's from books you have access to is a
smart move because it will avoid all kinds of problems.

> Is the second edition stuff as unbalancing as it looks to me as a newbie?

No. I must say that one of the things I don't understand is why many
people refuse to use stuff from what they term as "second edition
sourcebooks" -- just use common sense and you can use almost anything from
first and second edition with SR3 rules, especially things like cyberware
and weapons, which didn't get changed at all between SRII and SR3...

> The player is complaining that he will no longer have all his starting cash
> if/when Man and Machine is published. My current response is that at that
> time he can get what he can or submit a new character, but that I don't want
> him using it all at this point.

Like I said above, if your group doesn't own the book (yet), don't allow
anything from it; anything else you as GM don't want in the game, you
should disallow too.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
-> ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: Cybertroll cybertroll@******.crosswinds.net
Subject: Bioware, Betaware, and a 3rd edition game of mostly newbies
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 15:39:48 +0300
Ok here is the deal...
Bioware in second edition was introduced in Shadowtech and the book was
specifically saying that it must not be given to starting characters. I
tend to keep that rule even in 3rd edition with the excuse that it's
still hard to find and they have to look for it as characters inside the
game. But sometimes I allow bioware stuff if i see that the player
doesn't takes too much advantage of it.
As for the the betaware and up Cyberware the answer is definitely NO!
Everything above alpha is considered secret, military, very very hard to
find... especially Deltaware belongs to the top-secret projects of
megacorporations.
The best rule is this: If u think that something will blow up ur
campaign or it is too powerful for u to handle it, cut it. You are the
GM, you have the final word in everything. And to the players that know
everything make it clear to them, that since you don't know the game
that well, they have to be patient with you and not to complain all the
time.

Cybertroll

--

E-Mail : cybertroll@********.gr
ICQ# : 7483400 but u have to beg to get my authorization!! :-)))
Homepage: http://www.crosswinds.net/athens/~cybertroll - WOA98 Photos!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Message no. 6
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: Bioware, Betaware, and a 3rd edition game of mostly newbies
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 09:12:32 -0400
At 03:39 PM 7/1/99 +0300, you wrote:
>Ok here is the deal...
>Bioware in second edition was introduced in Shadowtech and the book was
>specifically saying that it must not be given to starting characters. I
>tend to keep that rule even in 3rd edition with the excuse that it's
>still hard to find and they have to look for it as characters inside the
>game. But sometimes I allow bioware stuff if i see that the player
>doesn't takes too much advantage of it.

Actually, I believe that Shadowtech mentions that giving it to starting
characters right off the bat could be unbalancing, but should probably be
introduced gradually. But in game time (if you are playing current) that
was about 8-9 years ago. With the pace of change in the world and the
advancement of technology, it should be relatively common now. Of course,
there is still the limitation on Availability 8 gear. I'm sure at least
some of it is more rare than that.

>As for the the betaware and up Cyberware the answer is definitely NO!
>Everything above alpha is considered secret, military, very very hard to
>find... especially Deltaware belongs to the top-secret projects of
>megacorporations.

This is pretty much straight out of the rulebook. Again, starting character
= no gear higher than Availability 8. I would include the markup in there
for cyberware grades. I can't remember if Alpha grade adds to Avail. or
not, but Beta and higher sure would. In game you might be able to find Beta
with good contacts, but Delta comes out of less than 10 clinics in the world.

>The best rule is this: If u think that something will blow up ur
>campaign or it is too powerful for u to handle it, cut it. You are the
>GM, you have the final word in everything. And to the players that know
>everything make it clear to them, that since you don't know the game
>that well, they have to be patient with you and not to complain all the
>time.
>
>Cybertroll

True, it is your game and you can do whatever you want. But, you don't want
to be too autocratic or they won't have a fun time either. For the most
part, just using the existing rules keeps a lot of that stuff out. It looks
like a lot of people, especially the newbies, miss that Avail. rule for
gear. That in itself goes a long way to cutting down on the more egregious
problems.

The other good check is to make the player explain in character background
how he got all of those wonderful toys. If a player does background and
concept work first, then actually does the mechanics, the characters tend
to come out more well balanced.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 7
From: Mockingbird mockingbird@*********.com
Subject: Bioware, Betaware, and a 3rd edition game of mostly newbies
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 09:11:25 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Arcady <arcady@***.net>
To: Shadowrn <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 8:29 PM
Subject: Bioware, Betaware, and a 3rd edition game of mostly newbies


> Hello;
>
> I'm just starting up a new game (the players should be arriving in 40
> minutes... got to finish cleaning. :) ).
>
> I've got mostly newbies to Shadowrun, including myself (more or less, did
3
> sessions before spread over 10 years).
> However I've got 2 players who are experts at the system, and one who is
> very well versed in the novels (despite having never played).
> ! of the experts and the novel-player have presented me with characters
> that make use of items that until Man and Machine is published have no
rules
> under 3rd edition but exist in second edition items.
>
> One has extensive Bioware and mostly Betaware cyber ware (enough to cut
his
> essence down to 0.04).
> The other just pulled Ambidexterity and some Deltaware cyber eyes.
>
> My gut feeling is to tell them both to stick to only items in the
currently
> published 3rd edition books.
>
> Outside of the two of them and the other old hat at Shadowrun, nobody in
> the group even owns any of the books they are pulling stuff from.
Including
> myself.
> Glancing at the Bioware character's sheet; he looked quite potent. Enough
> to single handedly take on the rest of the team.
> Is the second edition stuff as unbalancing as it looks to me as a newbie?
> How would others handle this situation if they too were new to GMing the
> game?
>
> The player is complaining that he will no longer have all his starting
cash
> if/when Man and Machine is published. My current response is that at that
> time he can get what he can or submit a new character, but that I don't
want
> him using it all at this point.
> In large part this is because I don't to make the other players feel a
need
> to begin buying obsolete books. Nor do I want them unable to be on par
with
> each other. Nor do I want them to feel overwhelmed with rules they have no
> ability to learn.
>
>
> Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
> The Revolution will not be televised; it'll be emailed.
> /.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
> \(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.
>


Hi,
The rule that my gaming group uses we call the "Have, Read, Approved"
rule. Basicly there is a blanket rule that no book is usable unitl the GM
has bought it, read it, and announced it approved. This helps alot when you
have people who either own OOP stuff or will raid gaming store shipments for
new stuff (and yes, I do have a player who is notorious for going through
shipping boxes at the local store to find new books before the staff has a
chance to unpack them and set aside the ones on hold.) The bottom line of
all this is, "Tell them no and stick to it. If they don't like the rules,
they can always play somewhere else."

Mockingbird
Message no. 8
From: Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject: Bioware, Betaware, and a 3rd edition game of mostly newbies
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 22:04:14 +0200
Arcady wrote:
>
[snip]


Ok, first beta, and delta are NOT avail at the normal costs at chargen, even
with the SOTA edge to get that stuff in the first place, he still has to pay
the higher prices for them.
aka beta x7 and delta x10.
Then don`t allow bioware at chargen as suggested in Shadowtech, or reduce it
to legal bioware only.

--
Barbie

barbie@********.de
http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie/index.html

SRGC 0.22: SR1 SR2+++ SR3--- h++++ b++ b--- UB++ IE- RN+ SR_D+++ W++ dk
sh++++
ri++++ sa+++ ad+++ m+++(x+++) gm++ m+++ P+++(P*)
Message no. 9
From: Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject: Bioware, Betaware, and a 3rd edition game of mostly newbies
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:09:20 +0200
On Thursday, July 01, 1999 3:30 AM, Arcady [SMTP:arcady@***.net] wrote:
> Hello;
>
> One has extensive Bioware and mostly Betaware cyber ware (enough
to cut
> his essence down to 0.04).

I allow my beginning players to start with bioware upto 2 bodypoints and
cyberware upto alpha grade. You have to be consequent and stick to your
opinion, after all your the GM. fi. I said 2 bodypoints and that means
2, NOT 2.1 just because that would be more convinient for the player (he
just has to choose then).

> The other just pulled Ambidexterity and some Deltaware cyber
eyes.

I wouldn't allow them to have delta grade cyberware. Latest I heard it
is still not commonly available on the streets!

> My gut feeling is to tell them both to stick to only items in
the
> currently published 3rd edition books.

That's what I did to for most of the stuff, but if the player
specifically something of SR2 I do consider it. If his request is
reasonalbe then I would allow it, but you would be able to remain in
control of all the goodies they want.

> Outside of the two of them and the other old hat at Shadowrun,
nobody
> in the group even owns any of the books they are pulling stuff
from.
> Including myself.
> Glancing at the Bioware character's sheet; he looked quite
potent.
> Enough to single handedly take on the rest of the team.
> Is the second edition stuff as unbalancing as it looks to me as
a
> newbie?
> How would others handle this situation if they too were new to
GMing
> the game?

Stick with your decision. I always take everything players ask into
consideration and explain them why they get it or don't get it. If the
other players are low-level characters then try to explain to them that
it would be much more fun just to blend in with the group and also
create low-level characters.

> The player is complaining that he will no longer have all his
starting
> cash
> if/when Man and Machine is published. My current response is that at
> that
> time he can get what he can or submit a new character, but that I
don't
> want
> him using it all at this point.
> In large part this is because I don't to make the other players
feel a
> need to begin buying obsolete books. Nor do I want them unable
to be on par
> with each other. Nor do I want them to feel overwhelmed with rules
they have
> no ability to learn.

Good decision, stick with it. If roleplaying is what he wants, then
he'll understand. Usually it's more fun to begin low-level and end up a
really 'bad and mean fighting machine', than just having it all from the
start (where's the fun in it).

> Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><

--
Sven De Herdt :)
SRCG v0.2 SR1! SR2++ SR3++ h b++>+++ B>+ UB->++ IE+(-) RN+(-) dk++>+++
sa- ma++ sh++ ad+ ri+ mc- m+ gm+>++(+++) M-(+)
Message no. 10
From: Bull bull@*******.net
Subject: Bioware, Betaware, and a 3rd edition game of mostly newbies
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 01:19:15 -0400 (EDT)
My biggest suggestion regarding the Bioware is don't use uit. Bioware will
most likely be getting a face lift in Man and Machine, and you'll be saving
yourself some headaches when the new book comes out and you want to switch
over. If, like a few people will possibly do, you decide to keep the old
Bioware system for your game, THEN let them have Bioware, but before then
it's probably a waste of time.

Bull

--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net ===== bull22@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
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