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Message no. 1
From: Mike Buckalew <mike_buckalew@*********.COM>
Subject: BitB as Source Book
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:19:46 -0700
Martin Steffens said:

> I tend to go only for the source books and related stuff and forget
> about the adventures and novels. Now that I bought BitB <sheepish
> grin> no source books available and I had to buy something SR-ish
> </sheepish grin> I noticed tons of stuff in there that IMHO belongs
> in a source book. From the top of my head Corp 2 would be nice.

I just finished reading BitB myself and I would like to echo this even
stronger. This and the other "track adventure", MobWar (MW), should have
been identified and marketed as source books and not adventures.

The purpose of the source books is to provide background info to help GMs
create adventure. BitB and MW do just this, they are just less subtle about
the plot hooks.

Another thing they have more in common with source books than adventure
modules is the amount of conjecture versus fact. BitB had shadowtalk
comments and a lot of the npc descriptions hinted at possibilities without
confirming them. This kind of stuff is great for GMs to help create their
own adventures and individualize their campaign world. It makes it
difficult/impossible to run it as a published adventure module.

The actual adventure material, for each "detailed" track, is typically less
than the synopsis section of the rest of the adventure modules. They can
not be run "as is", or even with minor modifications. It would take a
significant amount of work to turn one of the tracks into a playable
adventure.

Although I enjoyed both books (as source material, not adventures), I am
concerned about this issue for a number of reasons.

1) I'm really worried that FASA won't make anymore "real" modules. I really
like them and I don't have a lot of time to develop my own adventures. This
would mean I really couldn't continue running SR anymore once I run my
players through the last of the existing modules.

2) A newbie GM or someone like myself who doesn't have time to create their
own adventure might buy this by mistake, thinking that they could just run
it "out of the box". I knew what I was getting into from reading this list,
but people without that knowledge might feel "jipped".

3) A lot of the info in these "adventures" is unique to them, yet useful or
even necessary, for a complete picture of the SR world. Anyone needing to
be "up to speed" on events in the 6th World needs to read these adventures.
This creates some spoiler information for these people if they want to play
in one of them. This is somewhat true of the classic modules, but the
detailed info unique to them is generally more "color" and not major
world-shaking events.

Thanks for listening,

Buck (Mike Buckalew)
buck@*********.com
Test Manager
FileMaker, Inc.
Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: BitB as Source Book
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:33:14 +0100
Mike Buckalew said on 16:19/24 Jun 98,...

> The actual adventure material, for each "detailed" track, is typically less
> than the synopsis section of the rest of the adventure modules. They can
> not be run "as is", or even with minor modifications. It would take a
> significant amount of work to turn one of the tracks into a playable
> adventure.

After trying some of the things from Mob War! in my last
campaign, I can say that don't like these adventures at all. I had
my doubts before I bought Mob War! and actually trying to play it
unfortunately only confirmed them...

There is way too much reading and thinking about how things fit
together involved for an adventure; I agree with Mike that they
should be called sourcebooks instead of adventures.

> 1) I'm really worried that FASA won't make anymore "real" modules. I
really
> like them and I don't have a lot of time to develop my own adventures. This
> would mean I really couldn't continue running SR anymore once I run my
> players through the last of the existing modules.

Same here. I'm not very good at making up adventures based on
published material, I think mainly because: A) I have this habit
of trying to get everything right, and the books never give the full
story; and B) when I do come up with an adventure it tends to
break down in the middle leaving me back at problem A because
I can't figure out how the NPCs would react...

I don't have this with adventures I make up completely from
scratch, but 99% of the time, as soon as I try to base it on in-
depth source material (like BitB) it goes wrong.

The traditional SR adventures are very good in that you can read
them through two or three times and run them without the need
to double-check lots of sources.

> 2) A newbie GM or someone like myself who doesn't have time to create their
> own adventure might buy this by mistake, thinking that they could just run
> it "out of the box". I knew what I was getting into from reading this
list,
> but people without that knowledge might feel "jipped".

Hell, I knew what to expect and still felt that way...

> 3) A lot of the info in these "adventures" is unique to them, yet useful or
> even necessary, for a complete picture of the SR world. Anyone needing to
> be "up to speed" on events in the 6th World needs to read these adventures.

That has annoyed me about FASA for several years now -- no
book ever gives a complete picture. Bug City is still the best
example I can think of -- it describes what's going on around
August 2055, but COMPLETELY fails to mention another major
event that takes place at exactly the same time, namely the
protests in Washington...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hold on to nothing as fast as you can.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: BitB as Source Book
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:44:03 -0400
At 11:33 AM 6/25/98 +0100, you wrote:

>After trying some of the things from Mob War! in my last
>campaign, I can say that don't like these adventures at all. I had
>my doubts before I bought Mob War! and actually trying to play it
>unfortunately only confirmed them...

You know, I agree for the most part. *However* the way I GM is rather
free-wheeling without a lot of pregenerated stuff anyway, so it sort of
fits in with how I GM.

I can't remember the last time I actually generated stats for NPCs; I play
it by ear which better allows me to fit and tailor what's going on with the
PCs and how they are doing.

>> 2) A newbie GM or someone like myself who doesn't have time to create their
>> own adventure might buy this by mistake, thinking that they could just run
>> it "out of the box". I knew what I was getting into from reading this
list,
>> but people without that knowledge might feel "jipped".
>
>Hell, I knew what to expect and still felt that way...

I do think there should be more structure to the adventures. A stronger,
more obvious framework.

>> 3) A lot of the info in these "adventures" is unique to them, yet
useful or
>> even necessary, for a complete picture of the SR world. Anyone needing to
>> be "up to speed" on events in the 6th World needs to read these
adventures.
>
>That has annoyed me about FASA for several years now -- no
>book ever gives a complete picture. Bug City is still the best
>example I can think of -- it describes what's going on around
>August 2055, but COMPLETELY fails to mention another major
>event that takes place at exactly the same time, namely the
>protests in Washington...

Ah, but it's clever marketing!

I think FASA tends to lock in on a single topic and auger in on that point.
It would be nice if they had a page or two, in Bug City for example, that
would have said, "Okay, here's Chicago. Now here's an idea of the sorts of
things that are happening elsewhere."

Full detail would result in massive books that would be too expensive for
the vast majority to buy. But some hints, teasers, general ideas would be
great.

> Hold on to nothing as fast as you can.

Okay, another song lyric I'm pretty sure I recognize. What it is?

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: BitB as Source Book
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:15:30 +0100
Erik Jameson said on 15:44/25 Jun 98,...

> I can't remember the last time I actually generated stats for NPCs; I play
> it by ear which better allows me to fit and tailor what's going on with the
> PCs and how they are doing.

I only make up the stats I need for NPCs, and usually I wait until
the time I need them. When somebody shoots at an NPC, that's
the moment I decide what that NPC's Body and armor ratings are.

> I do think there should be more structure to the adventures. A stronger,
> more obvious framework.

Same here, if the adventures were a bit more worked out it might
be better. However, I feel that if FASA wants to keep doing these
epic adventures, setting them up like Super Tuesday! would be a
better idea, perhaps with a chapter explaining what is going on in
the same way that MW! and BitB do. That is the bit I do like
about these sourcebook-adventures (sourcetures? :) -- they tell
you in an uncluttered way what's happening.

> I think FASA tends to lock in on a single topic and auger in on that point.
> It would be nice if they had a page or two, in Bug City for example, that
> would have said, "Okay, here's Chicago. Now here's an idea of the sorts of
> things that are happening elsewhere."

That's what I thought about too, but I forgot to actually say it...
If something big is happening elsewhere at the same time as the
events discussed in a sourcebook, I feel there should be some
mention of it. For example, in Bug City that could have been done
in one or two paragraphs describing the compensation army in DC
and telling us what they're there for. Anything would have been
better than the way it was done now.

> > Hold on to nothing as fast as you can.
>
> Okay, another song lyric I'm pretty sure I recognize. What it is?

Tori Amos, "Pretty Good Year" (from "Under The Pink").

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hold on to nothing as fast as you can.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: BitB as Source Book
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:09:40 -0400
At 12:15 PM 6/26/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Erik Jameson said on 15:44/25 Jun 98,...
>
>> I can't remember the last time I actually generated stats for NPCs; I play
>> it by ear which better allows me to fit and tailor what's going on with the
>> PCs and how they are doing.
>
>I only make up the stats I need for NPCs, and usually I wait until
>the time I need them. When somebody shoots at an NPC, that's
>the moment I decide what that NPC's Body and armor ratings are.

Exactly. With the sole exception of major NPCs I plan as major villians
that will appear time after time and are just fun to construct.

But that's pretty much what I do. It makes it a lot easier for me to fudge
those roles too (it seems less dishonest to me).


>Same here, if the adventures were a bit more worked out it might
>be better. However, I feel that if FASA wants to keep doing these
>epic adventures, setting them up like Super Tuesday! would be a
>better idea, perhaps with a chapter explaining what is going on in
>the same way that MW! and BitB do. That is the bit I do like
>about these sourcebook-adventures (sourcetures? :) -- they tell
>you in an uncluttered way what's happening.

Yeah, perhaps some sort of BitB and Super Tuesday! hybrid would be ideal.
I personally love *ANY* source material that I can find, regardless of
where. But ST! was far more structured, without, I thought, being limiting.

>> > Hold on to nothing as fast as you can.
>>
>> Okay, another song lyric I'm pretty sure I recognize. What it is?
>
>Tori Amos, "Pretty Good Year" (from "Under The Pink").

Ah, great song. Great album, though on that record I personally prefer
"Baker Baker." One of the those songs that defined a particular time of my
life.

Erik J.

another song lyric...

"Power comes to them that enjoy the thrill of fear." - Cop Shoot Cop
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: BitB as Source Book
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:24:07 +0100
Erik Jameson said on 13:09/26 Jun 98,...

> But that's pretty much what I do. It makes it a lot easier for me to fudge
> those roles too (it seems less dishonest to me).

That too, although I tend to fudge with the Threat Ratings instead
of the actual attribute ratings, by adding or subtracting a few dice
depending on how easy or difficult it is for the players.

> Yeah, perhaps some sort of BitB and Super Tuesday! hybrid would be ideal.
> I personally love *ANY* source material that I can find, regardless of
> where. But ST! was far more structured, without, I thought, being limiting.

Exactly. I feel that it would be much better to have a book with a
number of complete adventures (a la ST!) backed up with the
kind of source material and adventure hooks that's in BitB. It
would make the book longer, I guess, but I'd be prepared to pay
a bit more for a better adventure that I can actually use straight
from the book.

This is also, BTW, one area where IMHO books like the NAN
volumes went wrong -- they had an adventure and source
material, but the two didn't really fit together. It was just an
adventure that took the runners to different parts of North
America, and some background info about those places. Not
related at all except by dealing with the same subject, more or
less.

> >Tori Amos, "Pretty Good Year" (from "Under The Pink").
>
> Ah, great song. Great album, though on that record I personally prefer
> "Baker Baker." One of the those songs that defined a particular time of my
> life.

My own favorite from that album is "Yes, Anastasia."

> another song lyric...
>
> "Power comes to them that enjoy the thrill of fear." - Cop Shoot Cop

Never heard of them...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Refusing to be classified.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: BitB as Source Book
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 23:32:33 -0400
>This and the other "track adventure", MobWar (MW), should have
>been identified and marketed as source books and not adventures.

To me, they don't fit in either category. Maybe "track books" or "plot
books" or "campaign books". Sourcebooks (at least as FASA as produces them)
tend to be about the whos and wheres. The track adventures mainly focus on
what, when and why.

>1) I'm really worried that FASA won't make anymore "real" modules. I really
>like them and I don't have a lot of time to develop my own adventures.

I think FASA has the same problem: no one wants to write "real" runs. They
are a pain in the ass, and generally not well received. (How many _really_
great adventures for any game system can you name? The only one to come to
my mind is the original Ravenloft. And maybe Yellow Clearance Black Box
Blues. And Harlequin, to a lesser extent.)

I imagine the track books are mostly an adjustment by FASA to what writers
are willing to produce and people are willing to buy. I haven't purchased a
"real" run for Shadowrun for a long time, based on their history: they
mostly sucked.

For the record, I _love_ the track books. They are _exactly_ what I want in
an adventure supplement. Give me a bit about plot and background, maybe
some key players and events, and then get the hell out of the way.
Generally, I don't run any of the tracks, but make up my own. Some of the
best runs are "street level" runs that sort of fall out of the cracks of
the tracks.

>2) but people without that knowledge might feel "jipped".

Hair-splitting, but that is "gypped". The word stems (probably) from
"gypsy". (Sorry, just warming up to an unintended meaning of my handle.)

Wordman

"So I told him 'look, I don't take my clothes off for anyone, even if it is
for something "artistic"'."
-- Janice, in one of the Muppet Movies
Message no. 8
From: BigDaddy <bigdaddy@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: BitB as Source Book
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 23:41:04 -0400
Wordman wrote:
>
> >This and the other "track adventure", MobWar (MW), should have
> >been identified and marketed as source books and not adventures.
>
> To me, they don't fit in either category. Maybe "track books" or "plot
> books" or "campaign books". Sourcebooks (at least as FASA as produces
them)
> tend to be about the whos and wheres. The track adventures mainly focus on
> what, when and why.
>
> >1) I'm really worried that FASA won't make anymore "real" modules. I
really
> >like them and I don't have a lot of time to develop my own adventures.
>
> I think FASA has the same problem: no one wants to write "real" runs. They
> are a pain in the ass, and generally not well received. (How many _really_
> great adventures for any game system can you name? The only one to come to
> my mind is the original Ravenloft. And maybe Yellow Clearance Black Box
> Blues.
If we are talkin about real adventures for AD&D I can name off a TON of
1st editions that required the DM to think beyond the normal means. They
gave you some ideas, rooms, treaure, and critters, you give them life
beyond the basics. That's what are job is, to give life to the basics of
what FASA provides, and we create.
>And Harlequin, to a lesser extent.

never played it whats it like?
--
Napalm Sticks to Kidz,
BigDaddy

Further Reading

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