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Message no. 1
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Black Ice (was Re: Death to Hackers in China)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:12:34 +1000
Micheal Feeney writes:
> Yurk... this sort of ruling could be usefull allright... with the right
> supporting cases and laws this could become a basis for legality
> of black ice.
>
> Consider: 1) the country (or corp) defines illegal access of
> highly sensitve
> data treason. 2) said country also rules that such treason IS automaticly
> punishable by death.

Except... treason can only be done by someone who is a citizen of your
nation (or corporation, for megacorps). If a forgein national does it, it's
called esponiage. And it's only esponiage if they do it from within your
turf.

Killing someone's meat body (not in your turf), just because they were
hacking your system doesn't give you the right to do it.

Consider these two scenarios:
a) Megacorp matrix space is extraterritorial. This lets them do what they
want (including putting up black ice). However, this means that hacking it
is NOT a crime outside of the megacorp's turf, and if someone dies, it's a
diplomatic incident (assuming anyone ever finds out, and also assuming the
victim's government gives a damn). Considering that the UCAS, for example,
considers matrix theft to be about the same level as Grand Theft (Auto),
killing a decker would be on the same level as executing a tourist who
happens to steal a car.

b) Megacorp matrix is NOT extraterritorial. In this case, the megacorp
killed unlawfully, unless they had big warning signs saying lethal force
would be used on unauthorised intruders. And given that black ice is illegal
in most government jurisdictions, I don't think that the corps would do
that.

What this comes down to is that corps would only use black ice on the most
sensitive and secret of sites. The ice would almost certainly be run in
conjuction with tracer ice, and once the black ice kills the decker (or
during the fight), the corp would send a retrival team to get the body and
clean up the evidence (not to mention seeing what data the decker managed to
get, and how the decker managed to find the site with the black ice anyway).

Oh, and in China, ALL computer and telecommunication crimes are considered
to be acts of treason. So, for example, whistling control codes down the
phone (yes, most of China's telephone system is that antiquated) would get
you the death penalty. Mind you, lots of things are considered treason.
Cheating their social security system is a big example. (Essentially,
anything that damages the State is treason, and most of China's economy is
government run businesses, so damaging them is treason. A burglary in a
government office: treason. Graffiti on the side of a goverment owned
building: treason. etc, etc, etc)

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 2
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Black Ice (was Re: Death to Hackers in China)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:48:57 -0500
At 09:12 AM 1/7/99 +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:
>
>Killing someone's meat body (not in your turf), just because they were
>hacking your system doesn't give you the right to do it.

<snip territorial/extraterritorial discussion>

One small problem with your scenarios. Under SR "Matrix law" when your
persona is running on somebody else's system, you ARE considered to be in
their territory, and under the jurisdiction of the laws of the RW location
that host is located in and/or serving. Basically, the court ruling is
that your persona IS you, and where it goes, you go. So, if you wander
into a corp's host "by accident" and get fried by their ice, you're SOL
legally because their system is governed by their territorial law. Oh, if
you're illegally jacked in, you're also liable under the law of the country
your meatbod is in for committing that crime there, and liable under the
corp/national laws of any systems you routed your signal through for
committing datacrime on their systems.

Ain't life lovely? Hence the founding legal principle in SR, the "Rule of
Maximum Drek." Assume that whatever you've done, you've slotted off
EVERYBODY.

>Oh, and in China, ALL computer and telecommunication crimes are considered
>to be acts of treason. So, for example, whistling control codes down the
>phone (yes, most of China's telephone system is that antiquated) would get
>you the death penalty. Mind you, lots of things are considered treason.
>Cheating their social security system is a big example. (Essentially,
>anything that damages the State is treason, and most of China's economy is
>government run businesses, so damaging them is treason. A burglary in a
>government office: treason. Graffiti on the side of a goverment owned
>building: treason. etc, etc, etc)

Well, yes, China's not exactly a bulwark of worldwide legal precedent... :)


Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to
Marietta, GA | hope for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 3
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Black Ice (was Re: Death to Hackers in China)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:04:56 +1000
> >Killing someone's meat body (not in your turf), just because they were
> >hacking your system doesn't give you the right to do it.
>
> <snip territorial/extraterritorial discussion>
>
> One small problem with your scenarios. Under SR "Matrix law" when your
> persona is running on somebody else's system, you ARE considered to be in
> their territory, and under the jurisdiction of the laws of the RW location
> that host is located in and/or serving. Basically, the court ruling is
> that your persona IS you, and where it goes, you go. So, if you wander
> into a corp's host "by accident" and get fried by their ice, you're SOL
> legally because their system is governed by their territorial law. Oh, if
> you're illegally jacked in, you're also liable under the law of
> the country
> your meatbod is in for committing that crime there, and liable under the
> corp/national laws of any systems you routed your signal through for
> committing datacrime on their systems.

Except, as pointed out, killing nationals of other countries is not a nice
thing to do. Consider what, say, the US would do today, if one of its
citizens, in another country as a tourist, say, got executed for grand theft
auto.

Furthermore, Matrix law is a LOT more complicated than that. Sure, you've
committed a crime, but you're still entitled to a trial by UCAS law. If a
megacorp killed you without the benefit of that trial, then they'll want to
cover it up pretty damn quick to avoid any _possible_ (not necessarily
likely) incidents.

I agree with the principle of maximum drek, but it applies to both sides,
not just the runners. (Simple and contrived) Example: go into the arcology
(prior to the shutdown, of course). Shoot up a bunch of guards (corporate
citizens, of course...). Step outside onto UCAS turf. Bingo, you've
committed no crime under UCAS law. Sure, the cops will probably pick you up
anyway to extradite you, but if relationships are bad between Renraku and
the UCAS, you probably won't be extradited and you'll just spend a nice
quiet night in a cell before being released the next day. Even if they do
extradite you, it won't be until after a full hearing where you can try to
get out of it... more chances for politics at work. If Renraku wants the
UCAS to respect its laws, and return offenders to them for punishment, they
have to have laws the UCAS will respect.

Case in point: many Cuban refugees are wanted criminals in Cuba (and lots of
them aren't just wanted on political charges). The US refuses to extradite
said criminals.

So, as I said, the corps aren't going to sling black ice everywhere. Just
_finding_ a site with black ice would not be easy, and you'd probably have
to penetrate many subsystems before you get that far. And having been
attacked by black ice, the corp is going to do as much as it can to retrieve
the evidence.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 4
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Black Ice (was Re: Death to Hackers in China)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:41:00 -0500
At 10:04 AM 1/7/99 +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:

<snip Matrix Law and Rule of Maximum Drek>

>Except, as pointed out, killing nationals of other countries is not a nice
>thing to do. Consider what, say, the US would do today, if one of its
>citizens, in another country as a tourist, say, got executed for grand theft
>auto.

Probably along the same lines as what it would do if one of its citizens
got arrested for petty vandalism, plea bargained, and got a public whipping
with a cane pole. Make polite protests then give way to the inevitable.
And bear in mind that the UCAS of 2060 is NOT the US of today.

(I know a guy who spent a summer with a Christian group smuggling bibles
into China. If he'd've gotten caught, he would've just disappeared, US
citizen or no. He told me about how others in the group knew people that'd
happened to.)

>Furthermore, Matrix law is a LOT more complicated than that. Sure, you've
>committed a crime, but you're still entitled to a trial by UCAS law. If a
>megacorp killed you without the benefit of that trial, then they'll want to
>cover it up pretty damn quick to avoid any _possible_ (not necessarily
>likely) incidents.

No, you're not entitled to a trial by UCAS law, because you didn't commit
the crime under UCAS jurisdiction. As I said, where your persona is, YOU
ARE. If you get flatlined on a Renraku host, then Renraku law applies,
regardless of if your meat is in Trenton or Timbuktu. Admittedly, the
corps won't put out a press release saying, "Another decker bites the
dust," but legally there's squat-all anybody can do about it. If anybody
protests, then I imagine the corp would simply initiate damage control,
with the emphasis on damage.

>I agree with the principle of maximum drek, but it applies to both sides,
>not just the runners. (Simple and contrived) Example: go into the arcology

<snip arcology massacre and quick escape from Renraku justice>

Okay, but let's actually apply the operating principle here. If the Red
Samurai squad gunned you down in the halls of the Arcology after your
little show of marksmanship, it'd be legal. Why? You're on their turf,
and your UCAS citizenship means jack. Similarly, if their ice flatlines
you in their dataspace, you're on their turf and their laws apply. End of
line, end of story, end of you. If you manage to jack out, that's another
matter. Then your principle becomes valid. Then Renraku actually has to
be discreet about taking you out, or go through channels to lay their hands
on you. But jacked into their host? You're fair game for whatever they
can throw at you.

>If Renraku wants the
>UCAS to respect its laws, and return offenders to them for punishment, they
>have to have laws the UCAS will respect.

What planet is YOUR shadowrunner living on? :) This harkens back to the
corporate extraterritoriality thread. A triple-A mega deals on a peer
level with nation-states. Moreso, because the megas can adversely affect
the economies of a given nation. You think the UCAS is going to waste even
one drop of its precious political capital with a mega over some (probably
SINless) data-thief? Think again, hard.

>Case in point: many Cuban refugees are wanted criminals in Cuba (and lots of
>them aren't just wanted on political charges). The US refuses to extradite
>said criminals.

That's because the US doesn't recognize the government of Cuba as a
legitimate sovereign entity. The UCAS does extend such recognition to XT
megas.

>So, as I said, the corps aren't going to sling black ice everywhere. Just
>_finding_ a site with black ice would not be easy, and you'd probably have
>to penetrate many subsystems before you get that far. And having been
>attacked by black ice, the corp is going to do as much as it can to retrieve
>the evidence.

Well, yes, you're probably right on those points, but for the wrong
reasons. No corp will fear the oh-so-awesome wrath of the UCAS or the
public outcry of its citizens. Black IC will be rare because it's
expensive and hard to maintain, and you don't flatline someone who mistypes
their passcode at the front-door SAN. The corp will hush up any incidents,
but only to prevent word from getting out about a penetration of their
systems, any potential data-loss, and the tiny amount of bad PR they'd get
for it (remember, the megas control most of the major media outlets). If
word did get out, and did generate any negative publicity, they'd probably
just make it up by staging a media event and issuing 15% off coupons for
their fast-food chain. And the sad thing is, it would work. We are
talking about an urban dystopia genre here.


Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to
Marietta, GA | hope for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 5
From: "Eric S. Hall" <esh7695@******.SDSMT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Black Ice (was Re: Death to Hackers in China)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:38:54 -0700
Robert Watkins wrote:
> Micheal Feeney writes:
> > Yurk... this sort of ruling could be usefull allright... with the right
> > supporting cases and laws this could become a basis for legality
> > of black ice.

<Snip lots of stuff about legality>

The argument was made about treason, espionage, etc. Keep in mind that
in the US in 1999, a terrorist act against any American anywhere is a
violation of US law.

And while the US has a number of extradition treaties, nothing in US law
says that it is illegal to arrest someone in a foreign country. All
that matters is getting said suspect in front of a judge, it isn't the
judge's concern how the suspect got there.

Extend this a little bit, and you can see how, if Renraku decides that
what you are doing is against their law, Renraku isn't going to be
concerned about where you are when its Black IC goes to get you.

Neither will the hit team responding to the Trace and Report IC.

Eric Hall
esh7695@******.sdsmt.edu
Message no. 6
From: Adam L <runeweaver@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Black Ice (was Re: Death to Hackers in China)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:22:58 -0500
I was looking through VR2.0 today, and noticed that there was a section on
Matrix Law that might interest you folks. (pp.132-137 VR2.0) Looks like it
hits most of the topics you've been discussing -- but I donna have time to
sum it all up right now ... maybe later.
-AdamL
Message no. 7
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Black Ice (was Re: Death to Hackers in China)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:27:44 +1000
tarjammer writes:
> >Except, as pointed out, killing nationals of other countries is
> not a nice
> >thing to do. Consider what, say, the US would do today, if one of its
> >citizens, in another country as a tourist, say, got executed for
> grand theft
> >auto.
>
> Probably along the same lines as what it would do if one of its citizens
> got arrested for petty vandalism, plea bargained, and got a
> public whipping
> with a cane pole. Make polite protests then give way to the inevitable.
> And bear in mind that the UCAS of 2060 is NOT the US of today.

Hmm... I was going to use the Singapore example, but you beat me to it. :)
Let me see, what did they do? They delivered several diplomatic protests,
and threatened to impose trade sanctions. Singapore caved: the guy didn't
get the public flogging.

> (I know a guy who spent a summer with a Christian group smuggling bibles
> into China. If he'd've gotten caught, he would've just disappeared, US
> citizen or no. He told me about how others in the group knew
> people that'd
> happened to.)

Yeah, but the Chinese wouldn't have left any evidence around... that's my
point. Not that the megacorps wouldn't do these sort of things, just that
they wouldn't do it openly, and they'd tidy up afterwards.

> >Furthermore, Matrix law is a LOT more complicated than that. Sure, you've
> >committed a crime, but you're still entitled to a trial by UCAS law. If a
> >megacorp killed you without the benefit of that trial, then
> they'll want to
> >cover it up pretty damn quick to avoid any _possible_ (not necessarily
> >likely) incidents.
>
> No, you're not entitled to a trial by UCAS law, because you didn't commit
> the crime under UCAS jurisdiction. As I said, where your persona is, YOU
> ARE. If you get flatlined on a Renraku host, then Renraku law applies,
> regardless of if your meat is in Trenton or Timbuktu. Admittedly, the
> corps won't put out a press release saying, "Another decker bites the
> dust," but legally there's squat-all anybody can do about it. If anybody
> protests, then I imagine the corp would simply initiate damage control,
> with the emphasis on damage.

It's more complex... the person is in Renraku jurisdiction, and so can
committ a crime against Renraku. But he's also in UCAS jurisdiction
(assuming he's decking from somewhere in the UCAS), and he's also in the
jurisdiction of the mega-Ma Bell, or whoever supplies the RTG for the
decker's area. If the 'Raku site he's decking is outside of that RTG, he's
also in the jurisdiction of the supplier of the RTG where the site is, as
well as any others he uses to get in there.

Modern example: hackers frequently go through several sites, in different
countries, on their way to their target site. They break laws in each of
those countries, and have committed crimes in each.

Try this one: the person shoots the gun from UCAS soil, injuring Renraku
citizens/guards in the arcology. The person is guilty of possessing and
using a dangerous weapon in the UCAS, but not of murder (in the UCAS). The
person is entitled to a trial by UCAS law for that crime. Renraku isn't
legally allowed (by UCAS law, at least) to come and get him until the UCAS
says that they can.

That's the situation. The crime is committed in one jurisdiction, but the
offender is in another. Whilst a crime has been committed, the victim can't
come and get him until the offender's jurisdiction says so. Now, the decker
would be guiltly of several offences under UCAS law as well, so the cops
would have a reason to come and get him. But the corp couldn't legally send
a strike team to get him, nor can they legally fry his brain with black ice.
Now, just 'cause it's not legal to do it doesn't mean the corps won't, but
it does mean they'll clean up afterwards.

> >If Renraku wants the
> >UCAS to respect its laws, and return offenders to them for
> punishment, they
> >have to have laws the UCAS will respect.
>
> What planet is YOUR shadowrunner living on? :) This harkens back to the
> corporate extraterritoriality thread. A triple-A mega deals on a peer
> level with nation-states. Moreso, because the megas can adversely affect
> the economies of a given nation. You think the UCAS is going to waste
even
> one drop of its precious political capital with a mega over some (probably
> SINless) data-thief? Think again, hard.

Yep, I do...
First: yes, the megas can adversely affect the economies of a given nation.
But nation-states can do the same to the megas. Remember, megacorps are
extraterritorial at the sufference of those nations.

Second: the megas and the government are constantly at each other's throats
all the time anyway. Not just political wrangling, either... up to and
including exchanges of fire and blockades of corporate sites.

Third: If the government is currently bickering with the mega, they'll seize
the death and use it as an argument to try and win concessions. Odds are
they'd make a big public show of it too, so Joe and Jill Citizen can see the
Guv'mint standing up to those nasty Corps, and remember that when it comes
time to vote.

Fourth: No data-thief worth the name would be sinless. Heck, most probably
have several SIN's. :)

> >So, as I said, the corps aren't going to sling black ice everywhere. Just
> >_finding_ a site with black ice would not be easy, and you'd
> probably have
> >to penetrate many subsystems before you get that far. And having been
> >attacked by black ice, the corp is going to do as much as it can
> to retrieve
> >the evidence.
>
> Well, yes, you're probably right on those points, but for the wrong
> reasons. No corp will fear the oh-so-awesome wrath of the UCAS or the
> public outcry of its citizens. Black IC will be rare because it's
> expensive and hard to maintain, and you don't flatline someone
> who mistypes
> their passcode at the front-door SAN. The corp will hush up any
> incidents,
> but only to prevent word from getting out about a penetration of their
> systems, any potential data-loss, and the tiny amount of bad PR they'd get
> for it (remember, the megas control most of the major media outlets). If
> word did get out, and did generate any negative publicity, they'd probably
> just make it up by staging a media event and issuing 15% off coupons for
> their fast-food chain. And the sad thing is, it would work. We are
> talking about an urban dystopia genre here.

Black IC expensive? Not particularly. Heck, by 2055, they could get Black IC
to run in the limited memory space of a deck, albeit without the AI
component.

If expense constraints were the reason they don't use Black IC everywhere,
those constraints would have faded by 2055.

No, what it comes down to is that even extraterritorial megacorps have to
consider how their neighbours think of them.
Message no. 8
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Black Ice (was Re: Death to Hackers in China)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:42:12 +1000
Eric Hall writes:
> And while the US has a number of extradition treaties, nothing in US law
> says that it is illegal to arrest someone in a foreign country. All
> that matters is getting said suspect in front of a judge, it isn't the
> judge's concern how the suspect got there.

Agreed... US law (and most countries laws) don't care how you got in front
of a judge. But US law forbids people coming in and kidnapping you.

Example: Say Nicaragua came along and kidnapped Bill Clinton, and put him in
front of a judge on a sexual harrasment suit. Do you think the US would say
"Well, okay, that's legal, you can do that" just because Nicaraguan law
doesn't care about how Slick Willy got in front of the judge?

Oh, for what it's worth, the US doesn't do this sort of thing very often.
They went in and arrested Noriego, sure, but I haven't heard of too many
raids on, say, the Columbian drug lords (Columbia also doesn't have an
extradition treaty with the US... some sort of domestic political issue...)

> Extend this a little bit, and you can see how, if Renraku decides that
> what you are doing is against their law, Renraku isn't going to be
> concerned about where you are when its Black IC goes to get you.
>
> Neither will the hit team responding to the Trace and Report IC.

Yes, they will... it won't stop them going, but they will clean up after
themselves.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 9
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Black Ice (was Re: Death to Hackers in China)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 00:04:14 -0500
At 01:27 PM 1/7/99 +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:
>>
>> Probably along the same lines as what it would do if one of its citizens
>> got arrested for petty vandalism, plea bargained, and got a
>> public whipping
>> with a cane pole. Make polite protests then give way to the inevitable.
>> And bear in mind that the UCAS of 2060 is NOT the US of today.
>
>Hmm... I was going to use the Singapore example, but you beat me to it. :)
>Let me see, what did they do? They delivered several diplomatic protests,
>and threatened to impose trade sanctions. Singapore caved: the guy didn't
>get the public flogging.

Ummm... IIRC, he did. Sentence was carried out, and he was released. I
remember the Larry King Live interview where he talked about it. However,
I will check the CNN archives to make sure...

>> (I know a guy who spent a summer with a Christian group smuggling bibles
>> into China. If he'd've gotten caught, he would've just disappeared, US
>> citizen or no. He told me about how others in the group knew
>> people that'd
>> happened to.)
>
>Yeah, but the Chinese wouldn't have left any evidence around... that's my
>point. Not that the megacorps wouldn't do these sort of things, just that
>they wouldn't do it openly, and they'd tidy up afterwards.

You missed my point. The Chinese didn't care that anybody knew. They
didn't "tidy up" anything. They just did it without worrying about the
consequences.

>> No, you're not entitled to a trial by UCAS law, because you didn't commit
>> the crime under UCAS jurisdiction. As I said, where your persona is, YOU
>> ARE. If you get flatlined on a Renraku host, then Renraku law applies,
>> regardless of if your meat is in Trenton or Timbuktu. Admittedly, the
>> corps won't put out a press release saying, "Another decker bites the
>> dust," but legally there's squat-all anybody can do about it. If anybody
>> protests, then I imagine the corp would simply initiate damage control,
>> with the emphasis on damage.
>
>It's more complex... the person is in Renraku jurisdiction, and so can
>committ a crime against Renraku. But he's also in UCAS jurisdiction
>(assuming he's decking from somewhere in the UCAS), and he's also in the
>jurisdiction of the mega-Ma Bell, or whoever supplies the RTG for the
>decker's area. If the 'Raku site he's decking is outside of that RTG, he's
>also in the jurisdiction of the supplier of the RTG where the site is, as
>well as any others he uses to get in there.
>
>Modern example: hackers frequently go through several sites, in different
>countries, on their way to their target site. They break laws in each of
>those countries, and have committed crimes in each.

Yes, the decker is liable for the crimes committed under each of those
jurisdictions, but according to the laws that govern those individual
jurisdictions. The legal protections he may enjoy in any one jurisdiction
do not carry over to any other. If you're tooling around Denver in a
high-speed chase and crash a few borders in the process, then the Azzies
will NOT abide by the UCAS or CAS Bills of Rights in prosecuting you for
the specific crimes you committed in their jurisdiction, despite the fact
that elements of the crime happened in those other jurisdictions.

>Try this one: the person shoots the gun from UCAS soil, injuring Renraku
>citizens/guards in the arcology. The person is guilty of possessing and
>using a dangerous weapon in the UCAS, but not of murder (in the UCAS). The
>person is entitled to a trial by UCAS law for that crime. Renraku isn't
>legally allowed (by UCAS law, at least) to come and get him until the UCAS
>says that they can.

I'd have to check with my legal advisor, but your position may be crocked
on that one, too. You fired the gun and somebody died. They may not have
died on UCAS soil, but the crime (from the UCAS POV) happened when you
fired the gun, not when the bullet struck the victim. It'd mostly likely
be a joint-jurisdiction case, and you'd probably wind up getting convicted
in the UCAS for 2nd-degree murder (reckless disregard of human life),
serving your sentence, then being extradited to Renraku for trial under
Renraku corporate law. And I can almost certainly guarantee you that
causing the death of a corporate employee would count for murder under
Renraku law, no matter whose territory you're standing in when you fired
the bullet.

And do you really think that kind of legal hair-splitting hasn't been tried
and dispensed with by 2060?

>That's the situation. The crime is committed in one jurisdiction, but the
>offender is in another. Whilst a crime has been committed, the victim can't
>come and get him until the offender's jurisdiction says so. Now, the decker
>would be guiltly of several offences under UCAS law as well, so the cops
>would have a reason to come and get him. But the corp couldn't legally send
>a strike team to get him, nor can they legally fry his brain with black ice.
>Now, just 'cause it's not legal to do it doesn't mean the corps won't, but
>it does mean they'll clean up afterwards.

I'll say it again, and again, and again, and again... When your matrix
persona is in XT corporate dataspace, YOU are in that corp's territory, and
anything that happens to you there is governed by the laws of that
jurisdiction and ONLY the laws of that jurisdiction. The location of your
meat is not an issue with IC attacks. Yes, a corper strike team can't
legally come and get you without permission from the local authorities, but
also yes, when your mind is inside their mainframe, you are at their mercy
in that regard.

>First: yes, the megas can adversely affect the economies of a given nation.
>But nation-states can do the same to the megas. Remember, megacorps are
>extraterritorial at the sufference of those nations.

Again, go back to the corp XT thread. There's LOTS of things a mega can do
to insure that those nations continue to give their "sufferance" to the
corp. And, frankly, a single decker is not going to even cause a hitch in
that relationship. You vastly overestimate the UCAS government's regard
for the lives of its citizenry in this context.

>Second: the megas and the government are constantly at each other's throats
>all the time anyway. Not just political wrangling, either... up to and
>including exchanges of fire and blockades of corporate sites.

Perhaps, but again, the gov'ment's not going to make an issue over
protecting one decker. Hell, they probably wouldn't even NOTICE one less
decker.

>Third: If the government is currently bickering with the mega, they'll seize
>the death and use it as an argument to try and win concessions. Odds are
>they'd make a big public show of it too, so Joe and Jill Citizen can see the
>Guv'mint standing up to those nasty Corps, and remember that when it comes
>time to vote.

They couldn't, the legal precedents would be firmly on the corps' side.
It's a long-standing ruling in the SR context that telepresence IS presence
in a legal sense. When you put your mind and sensorium inside someone's
computer, then you take the risks associated with that action. Maybe they
can't come shoot your body, but they can fry your mind as they wish,
because it's inside their computer, and you put it there.

And if a gummint DID try to make an issue of that particular legalism,
infringing on corporate XT, they wouldn't have one corp to contend with,
they'd have all of them. That's one baby that all the corps will unite in
an eyeblink to defend.

So two days after your hypothetical press release, the Guv'mint would
probably announce that the person responsible for that position had
retired, that a new person with a better grasp of the legal system was
taking their position, and that nobody should worry about the disturbing
loss of value of the UCAS dollar against the international nuyen over the
past two days, as it should be shortly rebounding...

>Fourth: No data-thief worth the name would be sinless. Heck, most probably
>have several SIN's. :)

Oh, yeah, somebody the gummint's gonna just jump up and defend... ;)

>Black IC expensive? Not particularly. Heck, by 2055, they could get Black IC
>to run in the limited memory space of a deck, albeit without the AI
>component.
>
>If expense constraints were the reason they don't use Black IC everywhere,
>those constraints would have faded by 2055.

Not particularly. Technical capabilities may change, but SOTA costs don't.
How much did a high-quality PC cost in 1989? Around $2000, give or take.
How much does a high-quality PC cost in 1999? Around $2000, give or take.
Of course, the 1999 PC is far more powerful than the '89 PC, but so are the
demands placed upon it.

It's the same cycle with IC. You put the most powerful software you can on
the best machine available to protect your top of the line data. Deckers
crack the system. The software is developed to close those weaknesses,
leading to increased program size and complexity. Demand for more
computing power increases. New machines are developed, and put into place
to run the new software at maximum efficiency. The cycle continues. Along
the way, both sides gain the capability to do things they couldn't have
done before, but it's all subsumed into the SOTA chase.

>No, what it comes down to is that even extraterritorial megacorps have to
>consider how their neighbours think of them.

Yes, but those thoughts will never turn to the fate of a lone decker, or
any single person. Not once, not ever. Especially not one that provoked
the response he got. It's called realpolitik, and it's very much in force
today, much less in the nightmare world of 2060 Shadowrun.
Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to
Marietta, GA | hope for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 10
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Black Ice (was Re: Death to Hackers in China)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 02:49:36 -0500
At 12:04 AM 1/7/99 -0500, Starjammer wrote:
>At 01:27 PM 1/7/99 +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:
>>>
>>> Probably along the same lines as what it would do if one of its citizens
>>> got arrested for petty vandalism, plea bargained, and got a
>>> public whipping
>>> with a cane pole. Make polite protests then give way to the inevitable.
>>> And bear in mind that the UCAS of 2060 is NOT the US of today.
>>
>>Hmm... I was going to use the Singapore example, but you beat me to it. :)
>>Let me see, what did they do? They delivered several diplomatic protests,
>>and threatened to impose trade sanctions. Singapore caved: the guy didn't
>>get the public flogging.
>
>Ummm... IIRC, he did. Sentence was carried out, and he was released. I
>remember the Larry King Live interview where he talked about it. However,
>I will check the CNN archives to make sure...

I didn't find a story link, but I did find an almanac entry. It happened
on May 5, 1994. US teenager Michael Fay was publicly caned in Singapore
for the crime of Vandalism.

http://cnn.com/almanac/9705/05/

Which is the point I was going for. We never would have threatened trade
sanctions against a country we had good relations with who was carrying out
its own laws against a confessed criminal. You can't do business that way.
(Besides which, while half the folks over here were decrying it as
deplorable, the other half were trying to figure out ways to ship juvenile
delinquents to Indonesia...) President Clinton made an appeal for
clemency, but that was about it.




--
Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to
Marietta, GA | hope for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Black Ice (was Re: Death to Hackers in China)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:16:09 +0100
According to Robert Watkins, at 9:12 on 7 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> Oh, and in China, ALL computer and telecommunication crimes are considered
> to be acts of treason. So, for example, whistling control codes down the
> phone (yes, most of China's telephone system is that antiquated) would get
> you the death penalty. Mind you, lots of things are considered treason.
> Cheating their social security system is a big example. (Essentially,
> anything that damages the State is treason, and most of China's economy is
> government run businesses, so damaging them is treason. A burglary in a
> government office: treason. Graffiti on the side of a goverment owned
> building: treason. etc, etc, etc)

It looks to me like all they need now is a roof over the country and a
Computer :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Take advantage. Or so it seems.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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